Let me just say this is with DM approval.
No I'd been eyeing off the Diablost PrC for a little while haden't really found a good excuss to planar bind a demon into service and with good clerics and whatnot in the group.
However last night presented an awsome opporunity our group 11th level was stuck in a place you can't teleport out of (won't go into detail to prevent spoilers) we'd just lost our main tank to a phantasmal killer he'd failed both saves on and we'd of course forgot to aquaire a diamond for a raise dead.
(this was in Fantasy Ground btw)
So I start sending wispers to the DM about summoning a demon to ressurect our fallen tank since with him we were going be pretty screwed and he would be left with a cohort to play which would suck for him.
In the end DM said I could summon Glabrezu and ask for a wish to ressurect. Glabrezu was more helpful than expected until we realised he raised our tank with a slight demonic taint hehehe (which the guy playing the tank loved, it made his night)
And the hidden price no one else knew about
My alignment goes from True Neutral to Neutral Evil and we levelup and I take diabloist.
and now I'm an evil character in a good group and DM has suggested just after this campagin ends if I want to go bad and turn on the party in a FINAL battle of sort before we start a new game which I'm totally up for. Should be a hell of a fight since I'm the mage in the group hehehe
But figured I'd get some advice and hints on being evil in a good group without acutally letting on, while still staying somewhat true to the new alignment. Since I've only just turned "evil" I'm not exactly EVIL EVIL just yet but def on the path into darkness.
I guess the key thing I'm going to hold onto is that I want to keep the group together until the end and don't want to ruin anyone elses fun, but at the same time will try to find more "evil" ways of resolving issues.
any thoughts, common pitfalls etc ?
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The most important thing to note (and this is an argument I had with a DM often in times past) is that just because you're evil it doesn't mean that you want to kill good party members. It's completely in your best interest to assist them and keep them alive and powerful because they trust and protect you. In reality they're just your free-willed henchmen (though that's true of all wizards, not just evil ones).
Agreed. There is all kinds of precedence for an evil character who allies himself with the good guys. Usually it's the most interesting character too.
Don't think "Traitor", think, "Dark hero"
I would think twice about turning on the group at the end. Stuff like that can cause bad blood. Once long ago i seen it happened and it turned into a war between two players, they would try and off each others characters. It eventually got so bad we had to dump one of the players.
That is only planned once the offical campagin has ended and would basically just be a final session to cap it off, basically my char making a grab for power now that the lackies have done thier job ;) ). It won't matter who wins the fight since we're moving on to Kingmaker straight afterwards.
It may even be that the tank PC I ressurected with the demon wish joins me, its basically just a fun twist.
Agreed. There is all kinds of precedence for an evil character who allies himself with the good guys. Usually it's the most interesting character too.
Don't think "Traitor", think, "Dark hero"
heh well he techincally went evil to save a dead comrade , for the "greater good" so yeah dark hero seem a good premise to work from.
You aren't evil. They just don't understand the kinds of sacrifices that need to be made for real good to come across the world. They don't grasp what needs to be done for power to actually be obtained.
...Or something along those lines. Don't be "Nyeah hah hah, and now I backstab you!" evil. Be a more smooth, understanding evil. Be evil that sounds good - it's the best kind ;)
You need to figure out what "being evil" means to your character.
Hint: it should probably NOT mean "I have this 4-letter word E - V - I - L on my forehead so now I must run around and put babies on spikes".
More Relevant Hint: it should probably NOT mean "I have this 4-letter word E - V - I - L on my forehead so now I must kill all my companions for no other reason".
Think of Star Wars. Darth Vader was evil. He would gladly kill anyone who failed him, or even anyone who got in his own way. Even his own allies, officers who commanded entire fleets, would be killed in an intant for minor trivial errors.
But then there was the Emperor. He had plans. Long-range plans that would take years, decades even to unfold. He hid his identity and worked through puppets. He didn't kill anyone unless they walked up to him and attacked him. He never killed tools like Darth Vader or Darth Maul - he valued their usefulness as tools.
Do you want to be the childish Darth Vader evil, or the subtle, effective Emperor evil?
If your answer was "Emperor" then remember your so-called companionis are your most useful tools. Don't kill them. Instead, help them, even save them even if their arms and legs are burned off by lava. Keep them alive to carry out your evil bidding.
Evil doesn't mean something unless you put it in perspective. What does your character believe in? What is his goal? How far is he willing to go to achieve that goal?
So, what is your goal?
Ultimate power? Become King? Be filthy rich? Put babies on spikes?
Once you know what your goal is, go out and achieve it. Don't let anything get in your way. Use your allies to further your plans (you can't do that if you just kill them). So make your allies think they need to do whatever it takes to help you reach your goal. No, don't tell them your goal, just figure out what the next step is then figure out how to make your tools, er, I mean companions, help get that step done. Then figure out the next step and get your tools to help you there too.
Lie to them. Manipulate them. Make them think that what they do is in the name of good. And it might even be good, if it has a dual purpose - saving the orphans seems good, but saving them from an evil villain, killing the only rival who knows your evil plan serves your goal too. Destroying an evil artifact seems like a good act, but maybe that is the only artifact that is standing in your way, keeping you from ultimate power - convince your friends to save the world by destroying that evil artifact, but really, they're working for you.
And, once you've achieved your goal, then wouldn't it be more fun to watch their faces when they realize they spent all those months or years as your puppets, helping you achieve whatever that goal is, committing acts that were no-doubt evil, or served evil purposes (but they didn't know it at the time)?
Let them live with that knowledge. Let them cry themselves to sleep at nights knowing that you run the universe now and they are the ones who helped you get there.
I would think twice about turning on the group at the end. Stuff like that can cause bad blood. Once long ago i seen it happened and it turned into a war between two players, they would try and off each others characters. It eventually got so bad we had to dump one of the players.
Yep, I've been there too.
Players get attached to their characters. Think about it long and hard: how would you feel if you just spent all this time developing your character, but instead of retiring him, your friends just gork him and take his stuff?
You won't like that. Not one bit.
Maybe you're mature enough to shrug, laugh it off, and roll a new character for the next campaign. But I gotta tell you, most people are not. I'm not. I would resent the hell out of it. No, I wouldn't lose friends over it, but I would definitely be torqued for a very long time about it.
Even if you are that mature, you better make sure all those friends of yours are that mature too, or else you could really piss off your friends, maybe even actually lose some friends, when you gork them and take their stuff.
I often play the same characters in different campaigns over the years. I had played one fighter/thief (1e and 2e) in three fun campaigns, and I relaly liked that character.
I joined a new group of players in mid-campaign, and brought in the 4th incarnation of this character. Turns out, these guys were playing a basically Chaotic-Greedy group. Eventually they became slavers. My character wasn't willing to go that far, so I planned to walk away and vanish into the sunset and then roll up a different character who would fit in better.
They shot me in the back, gorked me, and took my stuff. Burned my corpse to ash.
I have never played that character since. I'm not sure why, but even though he used to be my favorite, I somehow lost the desire to play him anymore. Maybe just a bad taste in my mouth.
I did make up that evil character, and within a month or so that group fell to bickering and the characters duked it out and the campaign ended with most of them dead. And when those guys wanted to start up another campaign, and said it would be another "evil" group, I said thanks but no thanks and never saw them again.
Now, they weren't really "friends" since I had just met them. But that event really had a long-lasting effect on my gaming. It's been over 20 years since that happened and I still haven't used that character anywhere.
Maybe I'm just not mature enough to handle it. Maybe I take my characters too seriously.
I dunno.
But I sure have known a ton of players in 35 years who feel more like I do than otherwise - a whole lot of players take their characters fairly seriously.
It would be a shame to gork your friends if they feel like that. Your gaming group might not ever be quite the same.
Its funny you should mention evil artifacts severla months ago we cam across a couldron with an evil aura that we were unable to indentify. The good cleric of course wanted to destory it but I said then well we should take it with us so I can study it and learn how to destory it.
floating disc to the rescue :)
of course I'm doing no such thing the couldron is safely tucked away long forgotten by the cleric, waiting for my charcter to unlock its secrets ;)
at the time it seemed a reasonable act for a true neutral charcter to understand something before choosing to destory it although as it turns out guess he was forward planning even then hehehe
I would think twice about turning on the group at the end. Stuff like that can cause bad blood. Once long ago i seen it happened and it turned into a war between two players, they would try and off each others characters. It eventually got so bad we had to dump one of the players.Yep, I've been there too.
Players get attached to their characters. Think about it long and hard: how would you feel if you just spent all this time developing your character, but instead of retiring him, your friends just gork him and take his stuff?
You won't like that. Not one bit.
Maybe you're mature enough to shrug, laugh it off, and roll a new character for the next campaign. But I gotta tell you, most people are not. I'm not. I would resent the hell out of it. No, I wouldn't lose friends over it, but I would definitely be torqued for a very long time about it.
Even if you are that mature, you better make sure all those friends of yours are that mature too, or else you could really piss off your friends, maybe even actually lose some friends, when you gork them and take their stuff.
In fact, that reminds me:
Heh if it came to that during the final battle I'm mature enough to let my charcter die and let them win ;). In fact might even plan it with the DM to go down that way. have them have to kill me and try and save the soul of the demon raised tank PC in the process.
Not to be a killjoy or anything, but now your character is Evil, not Chaotic. He's willing to do things that are wrong in order to further the goals he's personally got. In no way does that even approach suggesting the idea of a kernel of hinting at attacking your party. As long as your party is doing things your character approves of (which can in fact involve doing Good-centric things) there's ZERO cause for your character to turn on them.
If the group can handle it thats, fine. I only mentioned what I did. Cause right now it is you and your DM planning this little surprise on the rest of the PC's. Just saying be careful with something like this, even something that seems reasonable can sometimes cause bad blood.
fair point
Not to be a killjoy or anything, but now your character is Evil, not Chaotic. He's willing to do things that are wrong in order to further the goals he's personally got. In no way does that even approach suggesting the idea of a kernel of hinting at attacking your party. As long as your party is doing things your character approves of (which can in fact involve doing Good-centric things) there's ZERO cause for your character to turn on them.
I'm in agreement there , like I said there wont be any turning on until the campagin is over. Assuming the group aquaires some form of "power" at the end it would then be reoanble for my charcter to want it all to himself.
but until then def won't be trying to activley hurt other PC's although nuging people into acts to shift thier alignments ;) that's an area for exploraton.
Who wants to survive the final encounter.. winning the game in a sense after playing for months? years? only to have their friend turn around and kill them?
Who wants to survive the final encounter.. winning the game in a sense after playing for months? years? only to have their friend turn around and kill them?
Yes, that does tend to be a real down note to end a campaign on. I think it's better to use evil characters to create dramatic tension rather than have a sudden "Surprise! Backstab!" turn at the climax.
The guy is part of an adventuring group that has banded together to succeed through strength of numbers and probably because of common bonds amongst them. An alignment change isn't going to erase those facts. Better that he do what he does and then when challenged by the other, good PCs, say something along the lines of "I didn't see anyone complain when my powers brought back so-and-so from the dead. We wouldn't have succeeded without him. I did a good thing for everyone concerned. I'm still doing so." Better to have him acting in an "end justifies the means" fashion with the other characters trying to convince him of the errors of his ways. That way, if he does feel he needs to turn on them later, due to ultimatums, or actions that he feels are a betrayal, then everyone is prepared and has seen it coming in advance.
Channel Magneto as an example of the end justifying the means. your friends don't understand how far you need to go to get the job done.
Consider handing the character off to become an NPC at the end of the campaign. He/she could become a reaccuring villain or thorn in future adventuring company's side.
Channel Magneto as an example of the end justifying the means. your friends don't understand how far you need to go to get the job done.
Consider handing the character off to become an NPC at the end of the campaign. He/she could become a reaccuring villain or thorn in future adventuring company's side.
I think NPC is what the DM has in mind as well , which I'd also be up for
I should also mention time frame
which is looking like another 10-12sessions which will take about 2-3 months so there def time to plant evil hints along the way so its not just ok now thats done FYI I'm evil and oh look you've been disentigrated XD
if anyone intersted I'll try to remeber to drag up this thread in 3 months time to post how it all turned out
On a more practical side, dont forget to do things like use undetectable alignment and mind blank to protect yourself from being found out. If there is a paladin in the party, stay out of the way of those detect evil spells of his.
As for your party members, I agree with the other posters that backstabbing is a lame way to end the campaign. Remember, evil loves company. Take the time to tempt your friends into folowing your new path, without telling them its evil.
Start with the fighter. He owes you(and your demon) his life, so he should be more simpathetic to your new point of view.
Becoming a reoccuring villian is fun, getting your entire party to become reoccuring villans is something you'll never forget.