So before I posted my twf rogue build, I spent a ton of time trying to come up with a 1 weapon rogue build that could compete. Assume we are only considering the first 12 levels...
It would be fun to build an Elven rogue-fighter that used the 2-handed Elven curved blade.
Unfortunately, the disparity in damage output is huge even at level 8 and I cannot come up with an adequate combo of feats that a rogue could take which would make up for it. Most of the good ones require a much higher BAB than a rogue could get before level 12.
At level 8, the sneak attack of the TWF rogue is something like 3x 1d6 +2 (strength) + 4d6 with only a -1 difference in to-hit (assuming the TWF takes weapon focus: short sword). Average damage = 57.
Our Elven Blade Rogue can get 1d10 +3 (strength bonus is x1.5 for 2 handed weps) +4d6. Average damage is 22. But this build does have 3 extra feats since it did not take weapon focus or either twf feat.
Any way to make the Elven Curved Blade Rogue competitive?
The TWF Rogue is probably using something like dazzling display + shatter.
The Elven Curved Blade guy will have 3 extra feats to play with...
Possibilities I have thought about:
1) Spring attack. Do much less damage but are much more mobile. Can run around the battlefield avoiding attacks. Maybe a fair trade? Could achive this by level 5, which is fun.
We have 3 feats to add into this mobility plan. Cleave? But that is only helpful with a bunch of tightly packed bad guys... still.. maybe.
2) Use Trip and Attacks of Opportunity? With greater trip and combat reflexes one could get (potentially) two easy attacks (at an effective +4 to hit) per round. Maybe the 1d10 +3 of the Elven Curved blade and leveraged strength bonus (2 handed weps give x1.5 strength bonus) helps here? On the other hand, this requires a really good CMB... by level 8 one could have something like +15 CMB. Doable? Maybe best to just leave this to fighters...
3) Vital Strike? But by level 12 we are not going to be able to get anything more than the first level of this. On the other and extra 1d10 of damage is nice...
4) Maybe say f it and go for a bow rogue using manyshot for a dual sneak attack (is this even possible?)
Anyone tried something like this?
Whirlwind Attack + Lunge? (:
Gelmir wrote: But this build does have 3 extra feats since it did not take weapon focus or either twf feat.
Power attack, cleave and great cleave.
The attacks have to be spread out, but if they can be sneak attacks they will do well.
-James
The Two handed rogue did reasonably well in the DPR olympics.
You need to be strength-heavy though to make it work. Power attack is a must as well.
So the finesse rogue with elven curved blade won't work? or would work if I bumped strength?
Hmm... so acrobatics into the middle of a group and keep cleaving until everyone it dead? Amusing. I'll think on this a bit.
Are you saying I just focus on strength? So instead of 18 dex, 14 strength, go the other way around?
I do enjoy the high armor class from dex, though.
What about a level of wizard to cast "shield" and "mage armor" to boost ac by +8?
Gelmir wrote: So the finesse rogue with elven curved blade won't work? or would work if I bumped strength? Would work if you pumped Str.
Quote: Are you saying I just focus on strength? So instead of 18 dex, 14 strength, go the other way around? Yessir
Quote: I do enjoy the high armor class from dex, though. Heavier armor gives better AC too.
What about a level of wizard to cast "shield" and "mage armor" to boost ac by +8? UMD and a couple 750 gp wands work for that just as well.
Interesting. Ok. Follow-up questions...
Can you explain a bit more about cleave? It sounds like I can only use Greater Cleave one time on each adjacent creature... that seems... weak when compared to the damage output of two weapon fighting.
Does power attack+a high enough two-hit help make up for the difference in sneak attack damage between this character and a twf fighting char?
Could I use Cleave to backstab 2 or more opponents in the same attack if they were near enough and if I used stealth to catch them flat footed?
ALSO, can I combine Cleave with Lunge such that my effective cleave range becomes 10 ft for all of my attacks that turn? THAT could be VERY cool with Greater Cleave...
This may work... at least against multiple combatants.
Assuming the rules allow it: 1) stealth near enemy group. 2) Lunge 3) Greater Cleave allows sneak attack damage on potentially everyone within 10 feet of me.
This could potentially be much stronger than 2 wep fighting...
A lot also depends on the types (and ACs) of the opponents you face. The only character I've seen miss more than a TWF rogue is a monk using flurry of blows. For a non full BAB character, the -2 to attack matters.
I mean... if all of that works the following is not bad:
Elf Rogue/Fighter
Str 14 +2 5
Dex 18 +4 10
Con 8 -1
Int 16 +3 5
Wis 10 0
Char 10 0 0
(high intelligece for more languages and skill points... to take advantage of elf intel bonus... need elf for elven curved blade)
1: Rogue Feat(1): Wep Finesse +0
2: Rogue Talent(2): Fast Stealth +1
3: Fighter(1): Power Attack, Cleave(+2BAB)
4: Fighter (2): Lunge (BAB+3)
5: Rogue (3): Greater Cleave (+4BAB)
6: Rogue (4) Talent: Bleeding (+5BAB)
7: Rogue (5) Feat: Weapon focus: Elven Curved Blade (+5BAB)
8: Rogue (6) Talent: Dazzling Display (+6BAB)
9: Rogue (7) Feat: Shatter Defenses (+7BAB)
Total to hit bonus at level 9= +5(dex)+1(wep focus)+7BAB= +13
10: Rogue (8) Talent: Surprise Attack
11: Rogue (9) Feat:
12: Rogue (10) Talent: Opportunist
so... at level 9, this guy could greater cleave 2+ targets at +3 to hit for 1d10+3 +4d6(2 handed weapon is x1.5 str bonus) +7 (power attack) ave. = 34 with a +11 to hit (-2 for power attack)
A twf rogue at the same level would do something like 2x(1d6+2 +4d6) +1d10+3(assume 2wep rend) ... ave = 56
on one target with a to-hit of +11 (-2 for twf). He would also get a 3rd attack on that target at +6 with improved twf. This adds an additional 19... so... but unreliable... 56 with a max of 75
so... it looks like as long as there are at least 2 bad guys within 10 feet of my sneaky elf, I can, on average do MORE damage than the twf rogue... 68 vs 56.
Is this right? Because if so.. awesome sauce.
And, of course, this char also has the dazzling display-->shatter defenses.
Which means he could use dazzling display, use acrobatics to get with 10 feet of most opponents, use Lunge+Greater Cleave to shatter ALL of their defenses and THEN, in the next round, sneak attack damage the entire group.
Man, tell me that works... because THAT would be fun.
Keep in mind that cleave specifies that your targets must be adjacent to each other as well as being within reach, so this may be slightly harder to pull off unless you have a shield-slamming ally pushing people together for you.
Also, I'm currently making a rogue based off of Spring Attack and the Claw Bracers from the Magic Item Compendium. They're a pair of punching daggers that allow you to make one attack with each of them on a charge or spring attack. With another item from that set, you get 3d6 rend damage if you hit with both.
Hunterofthedusk wrote: Keep in mind that cleave specifies that your targets must be adjacent to each other as well as being within reach, so this may be slightly harder to pull off unless you have a shield-slamming ally pushing people together for you.
Ah. Right. Good point.
I suppose all that is left to think about is vital strike, which can add +5 damage .. 39 total on ave.
Maybe try criticals instead?
Gelmir wrote:
Con 8 -1
Don't go with an 8 CON for a melee character (heck for any character), you'll be looking at less hps than the average wizard.
-James
go with strength-based half-orc rogue with a keen falchion. You might lose a bit of damage going from 1d10 to 2d4 for giving up the curve blade, but you get a bonus to intimidate (which helps Dazzling Display), darkvision (which helps sneaking around in the dark), and that orc ferocity (which just plain helps). Even though you generally won't be able to cure yourself to stay up, it's a decent ability as long as you can use that action to run past your allies so that they can protect your unconscious body. If you can get non-core material, there was a feat called Telling Blow, it allowed you to get your sneak attack damage any time you scored a critical hit, even if they weren't denied their dex bonus or being flanked.
No access to telling blow. I like the orc idea.
I don't suppose sneak attack works with whirlwind attack: "when you use the whirlwind attack fea you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells or abilities." Does "bonus" include sneak attack or is this only referring to to-hit bonuses...
jumping into the middle of a group and then using lunge +whirldwind + sneak attack could (again) put the above character into damage competition with the twf rogue...
Does this work? Or does whirlwind attack prevent sneak attack bonus?
It does look like whirlwind would stack with shatter defenses...
Our rogue does pretty well speced into feinting, vital strikes, and crits.
Gelmir wrote: No access to telling blow. I like the orc idea.
I don't suppose sneak attack works with whirlwind attack: "when you use the whirlwind attack feat you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells or abilities." Does "bonus" include sneak attack or is this only referring to to-hit bonuses...
jumping into the middle of a group and then using lunge +whirldwind + sneak attack could (again) put the above character into damage competition with the twf rogue...
Does this work? Or does whirlwind attack prevent sneak attack bonus?
It does look like whirlwind would stack with shatter defenses...
The big problem with Whirlwind Attack is the sheer number of feats required to get it. If you want to stay pure rogue, you won't see it for a long time.
But yes, sneak attack does indeed work with Whirlwind attack. The "bonus or extra attacks" means that you can't use haste/speed weapon attacks, extra attacks provided by abilities like flurry of blows or Two Weapon Fighting, and extra attacks grants by a high base attack bonus.
Ok. Well... one could do something like this:
1: Rogue Feat(1): Wep Finesse
2: Rogue Talent(2): Weapon focus: Elven Curved Blade+5
3: Fighter(1): Mobility, Dodge BAB+2
4: Fighter (2): Combat Expertise BAB+3
5: Rogue (3): Spring Attack BAB+4
6: Rogue (4): Talent (combat trick): Whirlwind Attack BAB+5
7: Rogue (5): Lunge BAB+5
So, by level 7, one could sneak into a room and land a sneak attack on everyone. Assume Strength of 14 and Dex of 18, then...
To-hit=be +5(BAB)+1(wep focus)+4(dex)= +10 to hit
Damage = 1d10 +3 (strength bonus x1.5) +4d6 ave=22 damage to everyone in the room. With 1 more opponent that becomes 44 damage...
vs
twf rogue at 7 (assuming, same stats and twf slice):
To-hit = +5(BAB)+1 (wep focus) +4(dex) -2 (twf) = +8
damage = 2d6(weps) +2 +2 (strength) +4d6 + 4d6 = 39 ave damage
The 2 handed rogue gets the potential to backstab everyone within 10 feet of him simultaneously, +2 tohit, +1 AC and vastly increased mobility and weapon reach. Also, he can run in, whirlwind and run out, which, even if he can only flank one bad guy, might STILL be more damage output than the twf rogue attacking just one opponent.
Throw in Vital Strike at 9 (for an additional d10) and power attack at 11.
He loses the dazzling display-shatter defense combo (which a level 9 twf rogue can get) but can rely on mobility to flank for sneak attacks. More importantly, he does much less sneak attack damage to a single foe. Obviously, this disparity becomes much greater as the two characters advance in level. Perhaps improved and greater vital strike could help make up the difference?
But if he is just facing a single foe, then he has party backup... so no problem.
This is actually not a bad trade off. Hell, I think I am conviced that the Elven 2-Handed Curved Blade Rogue is the way to go... at least before level 12...
Here is a proposed build:
(remember, needs to be an Elf and a level of fighter to take advantage of Elven Curved blade +finesse easily!)
Elf Rogue/Fighter
Str 14 +2 5
Dex 18 +4 10 (gets +2 racial bonus)
Con 11 0 +3 (-2 racial)
Int 12 +1 0 (+2 racial)
Wis 10 0 0
Char 12 +2 2
1: Rogue(1) Feat: Wep Finesse
2: Rogue(2) Talent: Weapon focus: Elven Curved Blade BAB+1
3: Fighter(1): Mobility, Dodge BAB+2
4: Fighter (2): Combat Expertise BAB+3
5: Rogue (3): Spring Attack BAB+4
6: Rogue (4) Talent: Whirlwind Attack BAB+5
7: Rogue (5) Feat: Lunge
8: Rogue (6) Talent: Surprise attack BAB+6
9: Rogue (7) Feat: Vital strike BAB+7
10: Rogue (8) Talent: Bleed BAB+8/+1
11: Rogue (9) Feat: Power Attack BAB +8/+1
12: Rogue (10) Talent: Opportunist BAB +9/+1
At level 14 (level 12 rogue/level 2 fighter) he could take improved vital strike for the extra D10 of damage
Just as a test... level 14 comparison...
Curved Blade:
to-hit = +11(BAB) +1 (wep focus) +5(dex) -3 (power attack) = +14
damage = 1d10 +3 +2d10 (improved vital strike) +9 (power attack) +6d6
ave damage = 48
TWF:
to-hit = +11(BAB) +1 (wep focus) +5(dex) -2 twf =+15
Damage = 2d6 +2 +2 +6d6 +6d6
ave damage = 53 ... not so much more BUT need to consider improved twf which adds a thir attack 1d6+2+6d6 = 26 ave (27 if you round up). But this attack is only at +10 to hit. Assuming it does... 79 damage.
BUT, that means that the whirlwind rogue only needs 1 more target to backstab to BEAT the twf rogue in damage!
Right. In the DPR olympics, the Half-Orc Strength-based rogue with a Falchion was head and shoulders above all other rogue builds if we assumed even a minor amount of movement - Two-Weapon Fighting only wins if it can stand still and full round attack every single round forever, and even then only by like 10%.
Weapon Finesse is pretty much dead. It's non-viable. The bonus damage from Strength is the single best method of dealing damage with a weapon, specially when using it two-handed, and the bonus from power attack is just gravy.
Going the weapon finesse route not only costs significant damage, it also costs a feat. All it offers in return is better reflex saves and a higher touch AC. Note that, until you can get dex to 30 or higher, you really don't gain any AC, due to max dex bonus on armor - dex of 28-29 = +9 modifier = full plate and dex of 12.
hmm. New topic time.
BobChuck wrote:
Weapon Finesse is pretty much dead. It's non-viable.
This seems to be generally true for almost all builds. However, WF should work with melee touch attacks - wouldn't that make it a useful feat for those wizards and sorcerers that use such spells now and then? An arcanist might often have -1 Str and +2 Dex, so it's a difference of +3.
BobChuck wrote: Right. In the DPR olympics, the Half-Orc Strength-based rogue with a Falchion was head and shoulders above all other rogue builds if we assumed even a minor amount of movement - Two-Weapon Fighting only wins if it can stand still and full round attack every single round forever, and even then only by like 10%.
Weapon Finesse is pretty much dead. It's non-viable. The bonus damage from Strength is the single best method of dealing damage with a weapon, specially when using it two-handed, and the bonus from power attack is just gravy.
Going the weapon finesse route not only costs significant damage, it also costs a feat. All it offers in return is better reflex saves and a higher touch AC. Note that, until you can get dex to 30 or higher, you really don't gain any AC, due to max dex bonus on armor - dex of 28-29 = +9 modifier = full plate and dex of 12.
hmm. New topic time.
Weapon finesse is a sub-optimal feat that makes characters otherwise broken playable. It works quite well in this regard. You can't make a combat monster with it, but you can make quite capable characters with it. If your character needs it, he is not optimal, but he by no means is worthless. Dex does other things besides AC and Ref saves, and armor specifically inhibits them. Lets see that full plate rogue sneak.
BobChuck wrote: Right. In the DPR olympics, the Half-Orc Strength-based rogue with a Falchion was head and shoulders above all other rogue builds if we assumed even a minor amount of movement - Two-Weapon Fighting only wins if it can stand still and full round attack every single round forever, and even then only by like 10%.
Weapon Finesse is pretty much dead. It's non-viable. The bonus damage from Strength is the single best method of dealing damage with a weapon, specially when using it two-handed, and the bonus from power attack is just gravy.
Going the weapon finesse route not only costs significant damage, it also costs a feat. All it offers in return is better reflex saves and a higher touch AC. Note that, until you can get dex to 30 or higher, you really don't gain any AC, due to max dex bonus on armor - dex of 28-29 = +9 modifier = full plate and dex of 12.
hmm. New topic time.
Heh. ok. fair. I might argue that there seem to be significant armor check penalties for the higher armor classes as well as greatly reduced mobility (20ft vs 30 ft) which is one of the key advantages to going for whirlwhind.
Also, I like the idea of figuring out a way to take advantage of the Elven Curved Blade trait that Elves get.
Anyway, thanks for all of the help... I think I have my build... one which should be fun and unique... even unexpected.
Not to keep this thing going past its natural lifespan but...
Need to get bleed in... Because with every additional opponent hit that is a ton more damage too! So... take bleed as your 2nd level talent... by level 7, you can inflict 3 points of bleed damage to everyone in the room on a sneak attack.
With 3+ opponents in the room, at level 7, that is an additional 6 points of damage output that the level 7 twf misses out on... in addition to all of the additional damage one is putting on the baddies for the cost of 1d6 of sneak attack and some skill points... seems like a good trade to me!
I tried play around with taking only one fighter level, but it ends up postponing whirlwind attack until 7 and lunge until 9 (!) and since I am only playing this char to 12, that seems too long to wait for his combo.
Anway, here is my final, best version of this build:
1: Rogue(1) Feat: Wep Finesse 1d6SA
2: Rogue(2) Talent: Bleed BAB+1
3: Fighter(1): Mobility, Dodge BAB+2
4: Fighter (2): Combat Expertise BAB+3
5: Rogue (3): Spring Attack BAB+4 2d6SA
6: Rogue (4) Talent: Whirlwind Attack BAB+5
7: Rogue (5) Feat: Lunge 3d6SA
8: Rogue (6) Talent: Weapon focus: Elven Curved Blade BAB+6
9: Rogue (7) Feat: Vital strike BAB+7 4d6 +8
10: Rogue (8) Talent: Surprise Attack BAB+8/+1 +8
11: Rogue (9) Feat: Power Attack BAB +8/+1 5d6
12: Rogue (10) Talent: Opportunist BAB +9/+1
Make a Pathfinder Society character and go for the Dervish Dance feat (in the Qadira sourcebook). Having a +5 bonus to damage instead of a -2 is HUGE.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Why is it that I keep hearing people talk about sneak attacking everybody in the room simultaneously?
In all likely hood you won't be able to get into a proper position and whirlwind before they get to act and you certainly aren't flanking everyone in the room at once.
It's a neat trick, but strikes me as a bad primary tactic/core build.
The black raven wrote: Make a Pathfinder Society character and go for the Dervish Dance feat (in the Qadira sourcebook). Having a +5 bonus to damage instead of a -2 is HUGE. uh... wow. yeah. that is huge. someone else mentioned that in another thread...
the problem is that it requires a scimitar. Still... I could work it.
And yeah, the whirlwind sneak attack is probably not realistic. I was just looking for ANY avenue to make a NON-TWF melee rogue viable. Also, the fact that using both attacks in TWF requires a full round action irritates the hell out of me. Really reduces the utility of that fighting style. I am a rogue. I need to be able to move around!
Anyway, one handed Whirling Dervish Rogue.
It would look like this:
Half-Elf
Str 10 0 0
Dex 18 +4 10 (gets +2 racial bonus)
Con 12 +1 4 (-2 racial)
Int 14 +2 2 (+2 racial)
Wis 12 +1 2
Char 12 +1 2
Or do I dump strength? Level one would suck but I could rely on a shortbow for that level...
Str 7 -2 -4
Dex 20 +5 17 (gets +2 racial bonus)
Con 10 0 0
Int 12 +1 2
Wis 10 0 0
Char 14 +2 5
1: Rogue() Feat: Wep Finesse 1d6
2: Rogue() Talent: Dervish Dance BAB+1
3: Rogue(): Combat Expertise, BAB+2 2d6
4: Rogue(): Talent: Bleed BAB+3
5: Rogue (): Feat: Improved Feint BAB+3 3d6
6: Rogue () Talent: Weapon Focus: Scimitar +4
7: Rogue () Feat: ? No power attack.. nee 13 str +5 4d6
8: Rogue () Talent: Surprise AttackBAB+6
9: Rogue () Feat: Vital Strike BAB+6 5d6
10: Rogue () Talent: Opportunist BAB+7/+1
11: Rogue () Feat: Improved Crit BAB +8/+1 6d6
12: Rogue () Talent: ? BAB +9/+1
Decent pathfinder society build that is NOT twf?
At level 8: 1d6 +6 (strength) + 4d6(Sneak Attack) +4 bleed = 27 ave damage +4 bleed/round on sneak attack at level 8 and does NOT requie a full round to execute with +13 to hit. Can't take power attack due to low strength...
He would also be very good at the thiefy skills... which is handy.
A twf would be 2d6+4 +4d6+4d6 +4bleed = 39 +4bleed/round with the same to-hit BUT needs a full round to execute. Also, +10 to hit.
Also took Improved feint to leverage high charisma and force sneak attacks. +1to AC due to dex. +1 to hit due to dex
What do you think?
Man, I really liked that two handed elf rogue concept. His sneak attack was only 24 with +3 bleed on a 10 to-hit.
Ravingdork wrote: Why is it that I keep hearing people talk about sneak attacking everybody in the room simultaneously?
In all likely hood you won't be able to get into a proper position and whirlwind before they get to act and you certainly aren't flanking everyone in the room at once.
It's a neat trick, but strikes me as a bad primary tactic/core build.
One more thing on that... my thought was that lunge+whirlwind gave me a 10' radius for my sneak attack... that should allow me to hit at least 2... maybe 3 opponents... which in turn would allow me to do more net damage than the twf rogue.
because both TWF and whirlwind are full round attacks I thought that was a wash.
Yes, I regulary could not flank everyone, but I likely COULD flank one guy and hit a second with a regular attack through whirlwind... I mean, if the TWF is getting of both attacks in combat, I should be able to figure out how to get off whirlwind, right?
Anyone have an optimized dex-based melee rogue build for levels 1-12 that i could look at to compare? I am not wedded to any single idea... just trying to understand what works and what does not.
The AC post above is a misnomer. Chain Shirt +20 Dex is +9, exact same thing as Full Plate + 12 Dex, you get full move, no penalties of note to abilities, higher Touch AC. As your Dex increases, you can shuck the armor for bracers, and maybe add in a Monk's Belt to add Wis to AC, too. Unlike full plate, Dex has no maximum upside.
Also note, a rogue build does it's dmg by hitting and by sneak attack damage. I suggest going with the scimitar build, and using a buckler...bucklers have no Dex limits, either! YOur AC will probably surpass the Party Melee at most points.
Also, taking weapon focus is a must. You have to hit the enemy to do dmg, and +1 is +5% dmg PER ATTACK for DoT calculations. Any feats that up your SA dmg are good, too, ditto PrCs. I recommend Assassin's Stance from To9S if you can get it. Same feat also has Shadow Blade...add Dex to dmg with some finessable wepaons.
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth wrote: The AC post above is a misnomer. Chain Shirt +20 Dex is +9, exact same thing as Full Plate + 12 Dex, you get full move, no penalties of note to abilities, higher Touch AC. As your Dex increases, you can shuck the armor for bracers, and maybe add in a Monk's Belt to add Wis to AC, too. Unlike full plate, Dex has no maximum upside.
Also note, a rogue build does it's dmg by hitting and by sneak attack damage. I suggest going with the scimitar build, and using a buckler...bucklers have no Dex limits, either! YOur AC will probably surpass the Party Melee at most points.
Also, taking weapon focus is a must. You have to hit the enemy to do dmg, and +1 is +5% dmg PER ATTACK for DoT calculations. Any feats that up your SA dmg are good, too, ditto PrCs. I recommend Assassin's Stance from To9S if you can get it. Same feat also has Shadow Blade...add Dex to dmg with some finessable wepaons.
==Aelryinth
What is To9S? Tomb of Secrets? Allowable in pathfinder society play? I don't think Tomb of Secrets is... Which supplement is that?
Dump strength to 7 for the scimitar buckler build?
Aelryinth wrote: The AC post above is a misnomer. Chain Shirt +20 Dex is +9, exact same thing as Full Plate + 12 Dex, you get full move, no penalties of note to abilities, higher Touch AC. As your Dex increases, you can shuck the armor for bracers, and maybe add in a Monk's Belt to add Wis to AC, too. Unlike full plate, Dex has no maximum upside.
Also note, a rogue build does it's dmg by hitting and by sneak attack damage. I suggest going with the scimitar build, and using a buckler...bucklers have no Dex limits, either! YOur AC will probably surpass the Party Melee at most points.
Also, taking weapon focus is a must. You have to hit the enemy to do dmg, and +1 is +5% dmg PER ATTACK for DoT calculations. Any feats that up your SA dmg are good, too, ditto PrCs. I recommend Assassin's Stance from To9S if you can get it. Same feat also has Shadow Blade...add Dex to dmg with some finessable wepaons.
==Aelryinth
Math Errors:
Chain Shirt has a Max Dex of 18 so even with maximum Dex it's only providing a +8 instead of the Full Plates +10 total.
Also Monk's Belt doesn't do that anymore.
Weapon Focus adds a percentage based on your to hit bonus and the AC of the target you are swinging at -- it is not an automatic +5%
However Scimitar can be nice with the Dervish Dance Feat which was mentioned above, and Scimitars can be used two handed also. Even so I would recommend at least a Str of 13. Power attack on a rogue could still add up to 12 points of damage which would be the equal of almost 4d6 sneak attack damage on average.
Gelmir wrote:
What is To9S? Allowable in pathfinder society play? Which supplement is that?
It's a 3.5 (WOTC) splat book. Not allowed in Society play.
Mynameisjake wrote: Gelmir wrote:
What is To9S? Allowable in pathfinder society play? Which supplement is that?
It's a 3.5 (WOTC) splat book. Not allowable is Society play. Ah. thx.
So my poor 2 handed wep Elf rogue is dead in the water, eh? *sigh*. Really liked that concept. No way to make it work?
Any rogues have any thought on Cleave?
The scimitar thought is a good one.
Abraham spalding wrote:
Math Errors:
Weapon Focus adds a percentage based on your to hit bonus and the AC of the target you are swinging at -- it is not an automatic +5%
Unless you need above a 20 or below a 1 to hit, a +1 to attack rolls does, in fact, add +5% to average damage.
Cleave is *potentially* very useful. Since it allows two attacks at full attack bonus it has possible use from level 1 all the way to level 14. However it can be difficult to set up a situation you can benefit from it, however it is also a standard action so -- Tactically useful, guarantor of power it is not though.
Abraham spalding wrote: Cleave is *potentially* very useful. Since it allows two attacks at full attack bonus it has possible use from level 1 all the way to level 14. However it can be difficult to set up a situation you can benefit from it, however it is also a standard action so -- Tactically useful, guarantor of power it is not though. Much better off with whirlwind, then....
Anyone care to throw a build into the ring?
I'm looking for a melee rogue that stops at level 12... so he needs to be viable early on. Also, I do not want charisma to be a dump stat.
Is the scimitar plan the best one?
Gelmir wrote:
Ah. thx.
So my poor 2 handed wep Elf rogue is dead in the water, eh? *sigh*. Really liked that concept. No way to make it work?
Any rogues have any thought on Cleave?
The scimitar thought is a good one.
This may have been covered in a previous suggested build (The walls of text make my eyes glaze over), but you might consider a variant of the Greatsword wielding rogue that utilizes Imp. Feint.
Take F1 with Combat Expertise, Imp. Feint and Weapon Focus. Str is primary stat.
R1 adds bluff to your skill list and grants +1d6 on a successful feint, plus additional chance to hit from targets reduced AC.
R2 for talent, pick Power Attack. For 3rd level feat take Skill Focus: Bluff. You should now be successfully feinting against most humanoid opponents.
R3 Adds another 1d6 with feint. You should be doing 4d6 plus 1.5 times str. bonus and 1/3 with power attack with regularity.
F2 and F3 are open as far as feats, but Cleave and Sunder are good choices.
F4 adds vital strike. You should now be doing 6d6 plus quite a few bonuses, something like +12 to damage.
From 8th on emphasize either fighter or rogue depending on game play. Between ambushing (with stealth) or feinting (with feint) or flanking you should be able to do some pretty good damage.
Hope this helps.
Keep in mind that whirlwind requires that you end up in the middle of a bunch of hostile enemies. If you don't kill them all, youa re likely dead the next round.
The AC being +8 is fine. Kindly note you don't need Medium or Heavy Armor prof, either! Also note, Chain Shirt is available at level 1, Full Plate at probably 3-4. You're also not slowed down and you can actually use Dex-based skills. Mithral light armor is also WAY cheaper then Mithral Heavy Armor.
Monk's Belt is replaced by Monk's Robe. Same difference!@ You might even dip a Monk level if you feel like it...
And +1Th, weapon focus, does indeed add +5% to your DOT. 95% chance to hit instead of 90% chance to hit is 5% more DoT.
Your rogue should focus on hitting the enemy, and finding ways to do SA damage. Staying alive with his high Dex then also becomes important. At level 20, 36 Dex + Bracers AC +8 + buckler +5 is much nicer then Mithral Plate+5, 16 Dex, and shield +5.
===Aelryinth
Give me a bit and I'll post one.
Aelryinth wrote:
The AC being +8 is fine. Kindly note you don't need Medium or Heavy Armor prof, either! Also note, Chain Shirt is available at level 1
Monk's Belt is replaced by Monk's Robe. Same difference!@ You might even dip a Monk level if you feel like it...
And +1Th, weapon focus, does indeed add +5% to your DOT. 95% chance to hit instead of 90% chance to hit is 5% more DoT.
===Aelryinth
1. I'm not disputing that AC +8 isn't fine, I'm saying that you were wrong -- it is not the same as the full plate.
2. Monk's Robes do NOT offer Wisdom to AC. That was dropped off the item's abilities.
3. It adds +5% as long as the Die roll is adding five percent for each number which isn't always the case: The simplest example to prove you wrong is if you need a 22 or more to hit normally (basically when you'll only hit on a 20) -- At that point having a +1 adds nothing to your chances to hit since it doesn't change the fact you only hit on a 20. There are other cases that continues this point, that's simply the easiest to present.
Your elven curve blade man isn't dead unless you want him to be. A TWF rogue has the significant problem that he doesn't have the staying power of a real tank - if he draws aggro he's going to go down.
Going with spring attack means it is a lot(!) easier to get that sneak attack in each round, and then stay out of trouble.
Aelryinth wrote: Keep in mind that whirlwind requires that you end up in the middle of a bunch of hostile enemies. If you don't kill them all, youa re likely dead the next round.
The AC being +8 is fine. Kindly note you don't need Medium or Heavy Armor prof, either! Also note, Chain Shirt is available at level 1, Full Plate at probably 3-4. You're also not slowed down and you can actually use Dex-based skills. Mithral light armor is also WAY cheaper then Mithral Heavy Armor.
Monk's Belt is replaced by Monk's Robe. Same difference!@ You might even dip a Monk level if you feel like it...
And +1Th, weapon focus, does indeed add +5% to your DOT. 95% chance to hit instead of 90% chance to hit is 5% more DoT.
Your rogue should focus on hitting the enemy, and finding ways to do SA damage. Staying alive with his high Dex then also becomes important. At level 20, 36 Dex + Bracers AC +8 + buckler +5 is much nicer then Mithral Plate+5, 16 Dex, and shield +5.
===Aelryinth
Isn't the -2 penalty to dex based skills (like, say stealth) kind of a big problem for chain shirts especially at low levels?
On the other hand, going 1 level of fighter and then 11 levels of rogue might be interesting. Would 18 strength, 14 dex be sufficient to wail on things with a great sword while still being sneaky?
Ah! Maybe the half-elf bonus feat skill focus could help?
@lorekeeper... yeah, I really like being mobile. A LOT. I'd rather be mobile first (with spring attack), then focus on feint when my bluff skill is much higher.
The problem with any Dex build using the dervish dance to help with damage is the fact that it requires extra feats, and it doesn't get the increase that you would get for simply using strength. It also increases your MAD to a certain extent. HOWEVER you do get the bonus to AC from having that higher Dex. So the question is:
How much do you want the damage and how much do you want the AC?
IF you want the Dex:
Str 13 Dex 16 Con 14 Wis 12 Int 10 Cha 10 (before race)
Fighter 1 -- Weapon Focus(scimitar), Weapon Finesse
Fighter 2 -- Dervish Dance
Rogue 1 -- Nimble Moves
Fighter 3
Rogue 2 -- Combat trick(Power Attack), Acrobatic Step
Fighter 4 -- Weapon Specialization
Rogue 3~8 -- Dazzling Display, shatter defenses, skill focus(intimidate)
For your other rogue talents I would suggest trap spotter and Bleeding attack (I like trap spotter for the auto check... means you don't have to keep telling the DM "I check for traps").
The benefits of this build?
Mithral breastplate would have no ACP for you and would count as light armor, you could have a total Dex bonus of +7 (not too unlikely) and still gain full benefit from the armor. The lack of Str doesn't hurt as much so long as you stick to scimitars, and you can still two hand the scimitar for the extra damage on power attacking. The BAB is augmented by the fighter levels and since you are taking them might as well grab that weapon specialization -- the build also helps your Fort saves. The Acrobatic Step means you can generally move where ever you want with little issue (20 feet without worrying about difficult terrain is huge).
The Downsides?
Your sneak attack is going to hurt in the long run and the extra feats you have to put into weapon finesse and Dervish Dance means you're not likely to get cleave or other single attack multipliers.
An alternate to this build would instead be either a half orc With middling Dex and High Strength. Instead of weapon finesse you would take veiled vileness (for the bonus to will and intimidate) and dervish dance would be replaced with Cleave or Iron will (in my opinion a necessary feat for anyone without a good will save).
Abraham spalding wrote: The problem with any Dex build using the dervish dance to help with damage is the fact that it requires extra feats, and it doesn't get the increase that you would get for simply using strength. It also increases your MAD to a certain extent. HOWEVER you do get the bonus to AC from having that higher Dex. So the question is:
How much do you want the damage and how much do you want the AC?
IF you want the Dex:
Str 13 Dex 16 Con 14 Wis 12 Int 10 Cha 10 (before race)
Fighter 1 -- Weapon Focus(scimitar), Weapon Finesse
Fighter 2 -- Dervish Dance
Rogue 1 -- Nimble Moves
Fighter 3
Rogue 2 -- Combat trick(Power Attack), Acrobatic Step
Fighter 4 -- Weapon Specialization
Rogue 3~8 -- Dazzling Display, shatter defenses, skill focus(intimidate)
For your other rogue talents I would suggest trap spotter and Bleeding attack (I like trap spotter for the auto check... means you don't have to keep telling the DM "I check for traps").
The benefits of this build?
Mithral breastplate would have no ACP for you and would count as light armor, you could have a total Dex bonus of +7 (not too unlikely) and still gain full benefit from the armor. The lack of Str doesn't hurt as much so long as you stick to scimitars, and you can still two hand the scimitar for the extra damage on power attacking. The BAB is augmented by the fighter levels and since you are taking them might as well grab that weapon specialization -- the build also helps your Fort saves. The Acrobatic Step means you can generally move where ever you want with little issue (20 feet without worrying about difficult terrain is huge).
The Downsides?
Your sneak attack is going to hurt in the long run and the extra feats you have to put into weapon finesse and Dervish Dance means you're not likely to get cleave or other single attack multipliers.
An alternate to this build would instead be either a half orc With middling Dex and High Strength. Instead of weapon finesse you would take veiled vileness (for the bonus to will and intimidate)...
I like it.
So at level 8... +7BAB, 2d6 SA...
to-hit= +14 (+7,+5, +1, +1) (-2 power attack = 12)
Ave damage is 1d6 +5 +1, +2 +2d6SA = 18 ave SA?
So we sacrifice damage for to-hit... Nice. Now let's compare to a strength-damage char. How about this:
Score Bonus Cost
Str 18 +4 10 (gets +2 racial bonus)
Dex 14 +2 5
Con 10 0 0
Int 13 +1 3
Wis 10 0 0
Char 12 +1 2
1.Rogue:(1): Dodge, Half-Elf Feat: Skill focus, Stealth +1d6SA +0
2.Fighter(1): Mobility +1d6SA +1
3. Rogue (2): Feat: Combat Expertise Talent: Wep Focus: Great Sword +2
4: Rogue (3) +2d6SA +3
5: Rogue(4) Feat: Improved Feint Talent: Bleed +4
6: Rogue (5) +3d6 +4
7: Rogue (6) Feat: Power Attack Talent: surprise attack +5
8: Rogue(7) +4d6 +6
9: Rogue (8) Feat: Spring Attack Talent: Vital Strike +6BAB
10: Rogue(9) +5d6
11: Rogue : Feat: Whirlwind Attack
Level 8...
To-hit: +6+1+5 = 12 -2 (power attack) = +10
Ave Damage: 2d6+7 +6 + 4d6 +4 bleed = 34 +4 bleed
That does not include Vital strike at 9...
So for -2 to hit he gains a ton of damage 16 +4bleed more in SA and 8 more without SA.
I took a different angle with him than you: I went for feint and spring attack. I could be convinced to change that.
I guess I like the two-hander strength build better. One other draw back is that he is significantly less proficient in the dex skills. That is troubling... maybe it will matter less over time?
Also, I am taking rogue at level 1. First, because the half-elf skill focus feat put on stealth helps make up for his worse dex and also because I want access to all of the rogue skills immediately.
Thoughts?
The half Orc strength build will always have several advantages over other builds simply because he requires less feats and the strength bonus gets increase when done two handed. Those are things that simply won't go away. However the Dex build does have somethings going for it: AC and skill checks.
If you want a Strength build I would do something very close to yours:
Half Orc (Trait: Bully)
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 10
Rogue 1 -- Veiled Vileness
Rogue 2 -- Combat Trick(power attack)
Rogue 3 -- Nimble Moves
Rogue 4 -- Weapon Focus(Falchion)
Fighter 1 -- Dazzling Display, Acrobatic Step
Fighter 2 -- Shatter Defense
Rogue 5 -- Skill Focus(Intimidation)
Rogue 6 -- Trap Spotter (*I LOVE This trick)
Rogue 7 -- Intimidating Prowess
Rogue 8 -- Bleed Attack
Fighter 3 -- Iron Will
Rogue 9
Why do I like Nimble Moves so much? The Rogue HAS to be able to 5 foot step -- if you can't you won't be able to hold flank and difficult terrain will be your five foot step killer. There are enough cases where things have the ability to move through difficult terrain that it matters to be able to do the same. Indeed it means that Difficult Terrain is your best friend any time your opponent isn't as mobile as you are.
I honestly don't think much of whirl wind attack. I simply don't see enough situations where getting surrounded is a good idea for a rogue -- especially if his AC isn't top notch.
Shatter Defense is a great debuffer when it works -- and as a Half Orc it can work well for you. With Veiled Vileness you get a bonus to your will save (it's your weak point) and a bonus to your intimidate (on top of your other bonuses). All said and done with Skill Focus and Intimidating Prowess you'll be +5 (str) + 6 (SF) + level + 3 + 3 or Level + 17 on intimidation checks. If they have as many HD as you but a wisdom under 44 you're probably going to intimidate them for a long time and that lets you sneak attack at will for a long time.
Please also note that the combination of Iron will and Veiled Vileness with the way your levels would be in this build means that you'll have a +8 will save before items. The Fort save will be + 8 and Ref +9
Abraham spalding wrote: The half Orc strength build will always have several advantages over other builds simply because he requires less feats and the strength bonus gets increase when done two handed. Those are things that simply won't go away. However the Dex build does have somethings going for it: AC and skill checks.
If you want a Strength build I would do something very close to yours:
Half Orc (Trait: Bully)
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 10
Rogue 1 -- Veiled Vileness
Rogue 2 -- Combat Trick(power attack)
Rogue 3 -- Nimble Moves
Rogue 4 -- Weapon Focus(Falchion)
Fighter 1 -- Dazzling Display, Acrobatic Step
Fighter 2 -- Shatter Defense
Rogue 5 -- Skill Focus(Intimidation)
Rogue 6 -- Trap Spotter (*I LOVE This trick)
Rogue 7 -- Intimidating Prowess
Rogue 8 -- Bleed Attack
Fighter 3 -- Iron Will
Rogue 9
Why do I like Nimble Moves so much? The Rogue HAS to be able to 5 foot step -- if you can't you won't be able to hold flank and difficult terrain will be your five foot step killer. There are enough cases where things have the ability to move through difficult terrain that it matters to be able to do the same. Indeed it means that Difficult Terrain is your best friend any time your opponent isn't as mobile as you are.
I honestly don't think much of whirl wind attack. I simply don't see enough situations where getting surrounded is a good idea for a rogue -- especially if his AC isn't top notch.
Shatter Defense is a great debuffer when it works -- and as a Half Orc it can work well for you. With Veiled Vileness you get a bonus to your will save (it's your weak point) and a bonus to your intimidate (on top of your other bonuses). All said and done with Skill Focus and Intimidating Prowess you'll be +5 (str) + 6 (SF) + level + 3 + 3 or Level + 17 on intimidation checks. If they have as many HD as you but a wisdom under 44 you're probably going to intimidate them for a long time and that lets you sneak attack at will for a long time.
Please also note that the combination of Iron will...
Thanks for all of the thought and help! Ok, so you've sold me on nimble moves. I am set on my Half-Elf or Elf idea... I once had an evil Elven Rogue that I enjoyed so very much... and I want to create an homage to him (minus the evil part).
So I am sticking with the half-elf. His bonus skill focus feat allows him to boost stealth quite a lot... and that is the key dex skill I am worried about.
I also do not have whichever supplemental pathfinder book provides veiled vileness
As for whirlwind attack... hey I just like the idea of swinging a great sword all around me like that. But I hear you.
So... let's reconsider things a bit. I can dig the shatter defenses idea. You like that more than feint, eh? My issue with it is that it requires 2 rounds to set up, no? Unless after you dazzle them the shatter defenses hit counts as a sneak attack?
I'd rather be able to use feint EVERY round. So I suppose that means I had best set about improving bluff... also, I like taking power attack sooner. I mean, if I have 18 strength, I want to really leverage that in my sneak attacks where it is easier to hit people.
1.Rogue:(1): Power Attack Half-Elf Feat: Skill focus, Stealth +1d6SA
2.Fighter(1): Combat Expertise +1d6SA +1
3. Rogue (2): Feat: Improved Feint Talent: Wep Focus: Great Sword +2
4: Rogue (3) +2d6SA +3
5: Rogue(4) Feat: Skill focus, Bluff Talent: Bleed +4
6: Rogue (5) +3d6 +4
7: Rogue (6) Feat: Nimble Moves Talent: Suprise Attack+5
8: Rogue(7) +4d6 +6
9: Rogue (8) Feat: Vital Strike Talent: Greater Feint+6BAB
10: Rogue(9) +5d6
11: Rogue : Feat: Iron Will? Talent:?
So by level 5 that is a +11 to bluff. Most likely the opponent's DC for this at level 5 is... what? like 10+ 5(BAB?) +1 (wis) = 16? So that should let me feint quite often.
At level 8 his attacks look like this:
To-hit: +6+1+5 = 12 -2 (power attack) = +10
Ave Damage: 2d6+7 +6 + 4d6 +4 bleed = 34 +4 bleed
Non-Sneak attack is still a respectable 2d6+7 +6 = 20 (assuming power attack). 14 if no power attack.
Not bad at all. Especially because I plan to be sneak attacking quite a lot.
Also, isn't suprise attack pretty dang useful... more so than trap spotter?
I don't see Surprise rounds for the players happen that often. So while Surprise Attack can be useful, it's not going to be in play as often as trap spotter will (I can just about guarantee there will be a trap somewhere in almost every module).
It only takes 1 round to activate Dazzling display then after that when you attack the foe that is shaken he also counts as flat footed, since he's flat footed you get sneak attack.
Now don't get me wrong: Feints are nice -- but they are harder to do (the target gets a bonus) it doesn't affect as many targets, and if you do use it you really can't move that round.
Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses affects multiple targets, is easier to do, lasts longer, and still allows you to move -- or just as importantly full attack if you have a chance.
The reason Intimidate is easier is because Feint gives the defender the better of 2 DC's:
"The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent’s base attack bonus + your opponent’s Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent’s Sense Motive bonus, if higher. For more information on feinting, see Combat."
Either way it's going to be 10+Wis, but if they have Sense Motive it's going to be higher than their BAB (since it's your sense motive bonus and not your sense motive rank -- things like alertness get added in and class bonus for those that have it as a class skill).
Intimidate just uses their Hit Dice and their Wisdom. Generally put that's going to be easier to deal with than sense motive and the same as their BAB at worse.
Ok. You've sold me. The Half-Elf will be less good at it than the Half-Orc, but still pretty decent:
1.Rogue:(1): Power Attack Half-Elf Feat: Skill focus, Stealth +1d6SA
2.Fighter(1): Dodge +1d6SA +1
3. Fighter (2): Mobility, Skill focus: Intimidate +2
4. Rogue (2): Talent:Wep Focus: Great Sword +3
5: Rogue (3) Feat: Nimble +2d6SA +4
6: Rogue(4) Feat: Intimidating Prowess Talent: Bleed +5
7: Rogue (5) Feat:Dazzling Display +3d6 +5
8: Rogue (6) Talent: Shatter Defenses +6
9: Rogue(7) Feat: Vital Striker +4d6 +6
10: Rogue (8) Talent: Trap Spotter? +6BAB
11: Rogue(9) Feat: Iron Will? +5d6
12: Rogue : Talent: Opportunist
Of course... he doesn't get that combo until 8... but then neither does the orc (need that +6 to BAB)
Still, his Intimidate at level 8 would be:
8(level) +3(class bonus)+5(str)+1(char)+3(skill focus) = +20
I suppose the orc at that level would have +23?
Anyway, looks like I could be pretty good at that. Heck, not even sure I want to bother with skill focus in intimidate. Can I afford to drop that?
Before then, I use the greatsword, bleed, SA and my rough terrain mobility to cause havoc.
I like it. What do you think?
EDIT: just realized I no longer have the dex for acrobatic steps (requires 15) So I am going with nimble+dodge+mobility to ensure I can run around flanking people without getting hit and through difficult terrain.
Sounds solid to me. Remember you'll get three stat boosts... that's enough to turn a 14 into a 15 either early on or later (which ever works best for you at the time). I think the skill focus could be dropped but it does provide an edge.
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