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Are you guys going 2 do a Psionics book our make content for it? Like you guys did for the other classes.
I'm not a great fan of Psionics, I found it unbalanced my campaign and I dumped the concept years ago (During 1st Ed.). It may be more balanced now because I never bought Psionics books for 3.5. I hope someone can answer your question.
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This is a hot topic, so I'll try to give a quick answer before tinfoil hats and flamethrowers will be needed...
a) Official Paizo Psionics book is far off, as Paizo are still considering how to handle the matter.
b) Dreamscarred Press (the psionics specialized publisher) is doing a Pathfinderization of 3.5 psionics. It's in the works and progressing nicely.
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This is a hot topic, so I'll try to give a quick answer before tinfoil hats and flamethrowers will be needed...
a) Official Paizo Psionics book is far off, as Paizo are still considering how to handle the matter.
b) Dreamscarred Press (the psionics specialized publisher) is doing a Pathfinderization of 3.5 psionics. It's in the works and progressing nicely.
Shoot! Didn't want to cause a riot. It was only my opinion.
This is a hot topic, so I'll try to give a quick answer before tinfoil hats and flamethrowers will be needed...
a) Official Paizo Psionics book is far off, as Paizo are still considering how to handle the matter.
b) Dreamscarred Press (the psionics specialized publisher) is doing a Pathfinderization of 3.5 psionics. It's in the works and progressing nicely.
This should more or less answer everything on the thread.
Unless people start throwing out personal opinions regarding 3.5 psionics or how they should or shouldn't be done.
That's when the entire world catches fire.
That's when the entire world catches fire.
No. that's a psionic power. "Enflame world". But it's just a blast thing, so it's not overpowered.
The "dominate world" psi power, on the other hand, is.
Strips, puts on the popcorn and basks nude in the flames to come
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Personally, I always preferred spell point systems to spell slot systems. One of the best products I've come across with this is 'Elements of Magic' which can be found on RPGNow.comThe product should balance well with the pathfinder rules.
I love this book! Have you used it in a pathfinder or 3.5 game yet?[/threadjack]
I'm running a Wilder in a Pathfinder game with nothing up upgraded hit dice to d8 to match the 3/4 BAB, and it's working pretty nicely - perhaps a bit underpowered when it comes to options after the power points run out, unlike the party wizard, but otherwise pretty good.
The Dreamscarred Press did a real reworking on the soulknife - the 3.5 version was perhaps the most underpowered class on the planet - and at first they actually went to the other extreme, but changes later are evening things out.
I want to step in and say how happy I am this thread isn't on fire yet :)
I want to step in and say how happy I am this thread isn't on fire yet :)
I think the flamewars boiled away when it was finally figured out that something integral to what the psionics-lovers loved was the PP system, and what those that disliked it didn't like was the PP system. There's not a lot of point in a psionics system that the psionics-lovers don't like, I don't think, so you either need a system that uses PP but avoids the 'nova' without nerfing the character otherwise or a system that doesn't have PP but still has almost all the flexibility that the PP system has.
That's a pretty tall order, and I for one wouldn't like to try and go there.
[threadjack]
I love this book! Have you used it in a pathfinder or 3.5 game yet?[/threadjack][
Personally, I always preferred spell point systems to spell slot systems. One of the best products I've come across with this is 'Elements of Magic' which can be found on RPGNow.comThe product should balance well with the pathfinder rules.
I killed a campaign with it. To be honest, it was a coup-de-grace.
Important reminder: If you don't like powerful characters, don't run an all-evil campaign with gestalt rules and the option of running monstrous critters.
As long as Psionics are treated as magic for things that can stop/counter it, I don't see the real problem.
The only real beef I have with it is that I don't think it fits the High Fantasy genre. Any psionics in any game I've played in seem awkwardly added in rather than smoothly being a part of the setting.
You can make the flavour of psionics whatever you want. It is represented in more 'scientific' terms to differentiate it from magic, but really there is no distinction, and the 'science' is just in the names. Many 'magic' systems from fantasy are better represented with psionics than with Vancioan casting ... so fit it where and how you like.
Psionics is an integral part of any campaign I've ran for over 15 years. I can't imagine gaming without it. I find that its more realistic and important than magic in most systems. D20 has consistently been one of the only systems that didn't include psionics in their core books but rather featured in optional core books that come out years later. Which has always frustrated me and was a contributing factor in me choosing and sticking with different game systems over the years other than anything that said tsr/wotc/d20 etc. Pathfinder however mentions psionics in their campaign books at least which gives me some hope that I might stick with this game for a few years. Until That book(s) comes out though my campaigns are strictly going to be in the planning stages unless I like what dreamscarred does with their pathfinder psionics which I believe is almost ready for release or at least ready for playtesting. Though I dislike 3rd party material inherently from what Ive looked over it looks like they are headed in the right direction.
I think some people complain that its OP in D20 or in 2nd edition. I've always considered it to be integral. But obviously not anyone who has ever contributed or at least browsed the WotC boards on Character optimization.
I personally have given up on seeing a Psionic Pathfinder book.
I'm also a bit upset about the fact that, if they do mess with it, they're going to screw it up. I'm a bit angered about the thought process they seem to have about it and all I can tell them is "STOP! Rewind...you're overthinking it, please don't screw with it too much."
I just don't understand why they can't just take the Psi-Classes and beef it up to Pathfinder standards? Give us new powers, feats, etc. now and then, too. I don't understand why they feel like giving it a complete overhaul. I like Psionic feats, I like the way the powers work, I like the feel of psionics and my main issue is I ~NEED~ it to be closely backwards compatible. If Paizo does a Psionics book, I need to be able to take my Expanded Psionics book, Complete Psionic, Hyperconscious, and Dreamscarred Press's stuff and be able to convert it with very little hassle!
The same goes with Epic material. Clean up the ELH stuff, offer some new stuff, that's all I ask. And continue to offer it, little by little of course, like with Psionic material.
My main stick about these two rulesets is the LACK OF SUPPORT. It's a Chicken and Egg thing, really. However, I personally believe, the more support they are given, then the more people will get into it.
And the psionic rules will always lack support as long as they can not be dropped into a book or adventure in less then 2 pages. Some thing the current rules can not do.
And the psionic rules will always lack support as long as they can not be dropped into a book or adventure in less then 2 pages. Some thing the current rules can not do.
Seriously dude shut up on that front. You're wrong. You've been shown to be wrong. Other people have proven you wrong on this front and you won't stop. It's blatant misinformation.
No I have not, every attempt to show me wrong on that front fails, you simply can not do it without changing the rules.
And every time someone try's it they always change the rule to make it fit. You simply can not fit the full rules needed to run it on two pages as they stand now.
You need to explain how the powers work, print the class and every single power used as you can use nothing from the core book at all, not a single line.
So eh show me how ya can fit it on two pages.
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To all that say that the flavor of psionics does not mesh well with High Fantasy, I direct you to this quote from Ghostwheel over on TTW:
I mean, when I think "science," I think bespectacled old men bent over bubbling beakers over bunsen burners, studying books of mathematical formulas, jotting down notes and attempting to figure out the secrets of the universe through chemical experimentation. Mixing nitrogen (which is in bat poo) with other chemicals to create an explosive compound in order to make a fireball? Science.
When I think magic and mysticism, I think of someone who hones their mind into a weapon to wield the forces of the universe, or one who attempts to meditate in order to unlock the secrets of the cosmos.
So, which of those describes a wizard, and which describes a psion? I mean, really.
No I have not, every attempt to show me wrong on that front fails, you simply can not do it without changing the rules.
And every time someone try's it they always change the rule to make it fit. You simply can not fit the full rules needed to run it on two pages as they stand now.
You need to explain how the powers work, print the class and every single power used as you can use nothing from the core book at all, not a single line.
So eh show me how ya can fit it on two pages.
And so the flames begin to engulf everything.
I, personally, am not a huge fan of Psionics in DnD. I just don't think it really fits into the traditional fantasy setting. For people who wanted someone who simply had power, I thought Sorcerer was a very nice concession. It seemed to be the mid-point between hardcore fantasy and fans who loved psionics. I just think that Psionics in general should be left to the modern and Sci-Fi settings, where, in my humble opinion, mental powers are more setting appropriate.
Also, I don't think that any Dungeons and Dragons set has done psionics particularly well (though, admittedly, I haven't been interested enough to look up any third-party support on the subject). I just think that people should work in the confines of the system that's already in place (a la Sorcerer) or move to a different system if they want Psionics (such as Rifts, who did Psionics pretty well (although that's one of the only mechanical systems they DID do well)).
Again, this all is just my opinion, but I've been very happy that Paizo has not included psionics into their game, and I hope it stays that way. Although, with the job they've done with additional classes and the game system so far, if anyone can do Psionics right, it's these guys. For this particular rule set, though, I'd just as soon they leave well enough alone. Sorry if this seems to step on anyone's toes, I just REALLY don't like psionics in a fantasy game.
Edit: In responce to Ghostwheel, I see the description of 'science' as how magic should work, using the outside world, understanding how it works, add a bit of arcane power, and SPELL! The first description seems to mesh very well with a DnD wizard, imho. this needed to be edited in because that response was put in while I was writing mine.
Hey I was responding to Razz demanding support and said why that would not happen as it. I just said what many others have said as why.
I can't help it if meatrace disagrees.
Hey I was responding to Razz demanding support and said why that would not happen as it. I just said what many others have said as why.
I can't help it if meatrace disagrees.
Oh, no, I meant the arguing in general, not specifically your post. Your post just happened to be the last one I saw in the line.
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No I have not, every attempt to show me wrong on that front fails, you simply can not do it without changing the rules.
And every time someone try's it they always change the rule to make it fit. You simply can not fit the full rules needed to run it on two pages as they stand now.
You need to explain how the powers work, print the class and every single power used as you can use nothing from the core book at all, not a single line.
So eh show me how ya can fit it on two pages.
Also, I haven't been paying too much to this "conversation" on the boards, but (I have no idea if Paizo would do this, but since Pathfinder is their baby, they could do it this way, or some way similar) since the Psionics Rules would likely be OGL, as pretty much everything seems to be so far, what would stop them from from releasing a small pamphlet, like say the size of one of the Player's Guide PDFs, that contains the basic rules regarding psionics and how to manage them, and how they interact with spells and the like. Using the existing 3.5 rules as an example, it would explain Augmentation, the interaction between things like powers and SR or spells and PR, what PP are and how to use them, what psionic focus is and how to use it, and any other aspects of psionics that are unique to psionics and cannot be described as "like spells, but..." As for printing the class, that would take no more space than printing an APG class in an AP since (I think) they said that the only books they assume players have are the Core book and the Bestiary. As for printing the powers used, again, that would take no more space than printing any spells not in the Core book, such as spells that would be in the APG or UM.
Of course this is a fair bit of work, but I wouldn't expect to see psionics in any old AP, but perhaps in one that took place in Vudra, where psionics are rather prevalent.
It would take much more space, this was covered in a few threads and while some folks did make it fit, the thing was not the XPH when finished it replaced everything with core spells, core feats and reworked how the points work while not explaining them at all.
The XPH takes about 11 pages to explain how psionics work, not counting powers.
Now something needs changed you can't just use it as is. I am not saying points have to go{I think they should} but the system needs to work with the core casting system or it will never fit
And I am wanting a Vudra AP so IT MUST FIT
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Edit: In responce to Ghostwheel, I see the description of 'science' as how magic should work, using the outside world, understanding how it works, add a bit of arcane power, and SPELL! The first description seems to mesh very well with a DnD wizard, imho. this needed to be edited in because that response was put in while I was writing mine.
I agree with you that the description does mesh well with a DnD wizard (pretty sure it was intended to) and I also think that in certain settings that is the sort of magic that you ought to run with (I'm even DMing a Mage's Academy game), but in certain other settings I don't want the spellcasters of the setting to be playing with their random, symbolic knick-knacks in order to attempt to light a horde of foes on fire, that horde of foes just burns because I WILL IT, SO IT OCCURS!!!
Hey, when reading Fantasy novels I love when they describe how the magic works, be it typical Vancian magic in DragonLance or the organic methods of the Dresden Files or the furywielding in the Codex of Alera, simply because I like seeing all the different possibilities for how magic could be dealt with in a game. Which is why I am interested in the "words of power" system in UM, but that's completely off-topic.EDIT:
And I am wanting a Vudra AP so IT MUST FIT
At the very least, I definitely agree with you on this
I get labeled a hater as I am not tied to the points.Many systems pull off psionics without points so I just want a system that gets used and supported in AP's and such and am willing to open it up to non point system if it gets used.
I am so tired of it being the red headed stepchild.
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I get labeled a hater as I am not tied to the points.Many systems pull off psionics without points so I just want a system that gets used and supported in AP's and such and am willing to open it up to non point system if it gets used.
I am so tired of it being the red headed stepchild.
Hey, there's no need to call point-based psionics soulless! That's just mean!
No I have not, every attempt to show me wrong on that front fails, you simply can not do it without changing the rules.
And every time someone try's it they always change the rule to make it fit. You simply can not fit the full rules needed to run it on two pages as they stand now.
You need to explain how the powers work, print the class and every single power used as you can use nothing from the core book at all, not a single line.
So eh show me how ya can fit it on two pages.
Yes you have. Time and time again. For one, since APs are going to have characters with class abilities from the APG, without reprinting them in total, they could easily print a Psionics book and require use of it for psionics flavored APs.
There are wizards in APs without explaining every intricacy of magic in every AP, so your point is completely invalid.
Before I even attempt to condense the rules of psionics into 2 pages or less, which I assure you is more than doable. I can explain to someone how psionics works in about 2 minutes. It really is not complicated, and I've had more people find confusion with the vancian system than with power points.
I would like to see ya do it, full class, all powers , full write up on how psioncs work in 2 pages,
This has been tried many times, it never works, ya leave things out and just handwave details and rules. Something you can not do. If the XPH takes 11 pages for the rules and 4 pages for the class before ya get to powers how do you fit it in 2?
I think the campaign problem was more of the combination of evil and power, then it was the EoM, which, by itself isn't all that powerful.
As I said: EoM was the coup-de-grace. That campaign was doomed before.
And the power by itself wasn't the problem, either. It was mainly the GM not realising that powerful characters are powerful.
When the meta-gaming started to foil our tactics, things started to go wrong.
Then an EoM-enabled mass paralyse (and one or two other mass spells) saved the party from what felt a lot of "I'm sending this at you to kill you, no real reason why else this happens" encounter, the GM didn't want to keep playing that campaign.
Call me the League of Shadows for Campaigns - when there's a campaign that is beyond saving, I strike the killing blow ;-)
Edit: In responce to Ghostwheel, I see the description of 'science' as how magic should work, using the outside world, understanding how it works, add a bit of arcane power, and SPELL! The first description seems to mesh very well with a DnD wizard, imho. this needed to be edited in because that response was put in while I was writing mine.I agree with you that the description does mesh well with a DnD wizard (pretty sure it was intended to) and I also think that in certain settings that is the sort of magic that you ought to run with (I'm even DMing a Mage's Academy game), but in certain other settings I don't want the spellcasters of the setting to be playing with their random, symbolic knick-knacks in order to attempt to light a horde of foes on fire, that horde of foes just burns because I WILL IT, SO IT OCCURS!!!
Hey, when reading Fantasy novels I love when they describe how the magic works, be it typical Vancian magic in DragonLance or the organic methods of the Dresden Files or the furywielding in the Codex of Alera, simply because I like seeing all the different possibilities for how magic could be dealt with in a game. Which is why I am interested in the "words of power" system in UM, but that's completely off-topic.
I'm not familiar with a "Words of Power" system, but I think i can extrapolate what it might entail, and I'm not opposed to different ideas of how magic can work. It could be really interesting.
As for the hordes of knick-knacks to throw lightning and fire, that's never really been prevalent in game play. Either the material components of the spells were glazed over and just assumed to be there, or the GM just removed spell components all together, both of which kind of annoys me. I like the idea of keeping track of your spell components in castings (like writing down on your sheet you have the sulfur and guano for 5 castings of Fireball, and when you're out, you're like an archer without arrows. On that note, to many archers don't keep track of their arrows. Okay, that's tangential. Anyway, I like the idea of magic being more like alchemy than ultimate cosmic power. It seems to ground magic more in reality and make wizards and sorcerers seem to be that world's scientists and natural geniuses. I just like a good base into reality like that. These spell components have a natural energy in them that we release through these words (verbal components) and gestures and symbols (somatic components). I dunno, I've always liked it.
Speaking of going off topic. Anyway, I think the idea of other magic systems is interesting, but I also think the system we have works pretty well. I do like other systems' magic, for instance, I love the magic in 7th Sea, and Shadowrun has one of my favorite worlds. The magic in that system always seemed to strike me more as psionics than magic. But there didn't seem to be must to differentiate the two terms. I can certainly understand wanting a different system for different settings, but I think that might be why there are so many RPGs out there.
I am so tired of it being the red headed stepchild.
As a red-head, I take offense that that remark! ;P
To Seeker and meat:
Okay, it seems that the argument is continuing in the whole "This is the way it is!" "Nuh uh!" "Uh huh!" fashion. If there is a way to condense a Psionics system into two pages, then do it. If no one has a serious question of how something would work in a common situation, then you've succeeded. until then, please stop simply saying that a person is wrong simply because they have a differing opinion than yours. It's like watching the presidential debates all over again.
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Yes you have. Time and time again. For one, since APs are going to have characters with class abilities from the APG, without reprinting them in total, they could easily print a Psionics book and require use of it for psionics flavored APs.
There are wizards in APs without explaining every intricacy of magic in every AP, so your point is completely invalid.
Before I even attempt to condense the rules of psionics into 2 pages or less, which I assure you is more than doable. I can explain to someone how psionics works in about 2 minutes. It really is not complicated, and I've had more people find confusion with the vancian system than with power points.
If it is so doable then why have there not been any psionic characters in any of the Ap's or modules? As you say they have put a witch in, they have said they are going to be using archetypes from the APG and they have used relatively obscure classes from 3rd party books yet still no psionic class's?
And the psionic rules will always lack support as long as they can not be dropped into a book or adventure in less then 2 pages. Some thing the current rules can not do.Seriously dude shut up on that front. You're wrong. You've been shown to be wrong. Other people have proven you wrong on this front and you won't stop. It's blatant misinformation.
Did it just get warmer?
I would like to see ya do it, full class, all powers , full write up on how psioncs work in 2 pages,
This has been tried many times, it never works, ya leave things out and just handwave details and rules. Something you can not do. If the XPH takes 11 pages for the rules and 4 pages for the class before ya get to powers how do you fit it in 2?
Again, thanks for IGNORING MY POST. Why would you need a whole class writeup? They don't have that for rogue or any other NPCs. You don't reprint combat rules for every adventure involving combat. You refer to another source, in this instance a pathfinder Psionics book.
In a stat block you would only need to AT MOST have a description of the powers known by the NPC or PLAs by individual monsters.
But, for your benefit, I'll mock up an explaination of the psionics rules in under 2 pages. Mind you I will ONLY explain the rules that differ from magic, as in a majority of ways they are the same and rules do not differ. The only things you MIGHT need to explain are: power points, when they refresh, and the ML cap per power; psionic focus and how it is gained; psionics/magic transparency. Everything else is essentially as a spell.
If it is so doable then why have there not been any psionic characters in any of the Ap's or modules? As you say they have put a witch in, they have said they are going to be using archetypes from the APG and they have used relatively obscure classes from 3rd party books yet still no psionic class's?
Yes you have. Time and time again. For one, since APs are going to have characters with class abilities from the APG, without reprinting them in total, they could easily print a Psionics book and require use of it for psionics flavored APs.
There are wizards in APs without explaining every intricacy of magic in every AP, so your point is completely invalid.
Before I even attempt to condense the rules of psionics into 2 pages or less, which I assure you is more than doable. I can explain to someone how psionics works in about 2 minutes. It really is not complicated, and I've had more people find confusion with the vancian system than with power points.
Um...because there is no Pathfinder psionics book.
Core vs non core. All non core rules MUST be reprinted and done so in 2 to 4 pages. Even the summnor can be explained in 2 to 4 pages the psionc rules would need reprinted as they do not use any of the core rules
They are the only class that does not use the core magic rules, even the alchemist uses the core magic rules.
So if ya can reprint 11 pages + all used powers in 2 pages then do so.
Okay, this is all getting rather silly.
As far as new classes for a specific adventure, I think it's generally a bad idea. I don't see why there aren't enough ideas for adventure for all the other classes in the game. But maybe that's just me.
Ah so your rude and abusive when you can't back your talk up.
Your wrong, you can not do what your claiming. No one can, not without changing the rules and if ya have to change the rules to make it fit then your proven wrong.