I'll ditto Greg. I do disagree with a few things in here. The lack of facing rules is a pain, but at the same time, it is necessary when all the Perception skills are combined under the Perception heading. Hearing is all around, even if sight is not. One point in favor of the sight being directional, though, is this monster ability:
All-Around Vision (Ex) A BLANK’s (EXTRA SENSE ORGAN) grant a +4 racial bonus on Perception and immunity to flanking.
There are multiple monsters with this ability, such as the Medusa and the Shoggoth. And to clarify a point that was made halfway back in the thread: the scenario in which the Rogue was sneaking from tree to tree and was almost observed by the Troll. The DC 15 Perception was made by the Rogue to see that the Troll's head turned, not by the Troll to see the Rogue.
Still, this is a useful thread. Most of it makes sense. I might rule a little bit more heavily in favor of Distractions/Diversions than some, but I think I wouldn't be alone on that. It is entirely possible to sneak up on somebody in broad daylight without them noticing through any sensory organ. I've done it, and it sounds like others who have posted have as well. This is probably a result of the distraction/diversion ruling (if you translate it to in-game), but it still should be taken into account.
Also, low-light. Low-/dim-light is equivalent to a clear, moon-lit night. You can Stealth in that, although Darkvision ignores your Stealth roll. RAW, Ch7, p172.
Again, thanks for the information. This thread has given me a great deal to think about.
You are not alone in ruling greater modifiers for distractions. I do this as well.
This is one of my favorite threads for discussing the stealth and observation rules. I try and link it to any other "stealth" thread that pops up.
Greg
Dotted.
Totally overhauling and rewriting the Stealth and Perception rules are top of my list for before v. 3.0 of my house rules are ready.
P.S. To the people who say, "they're fine, just hand-wave it" -- same reply as always: if the clarity of the rules is unimportant to you because you Rule Zero the entire game anyway, then you're really not playing the same game as those of us (like the Man in Black, and myself) who prefer for the written rules to actually reflect what we're doing at the table. For us, the rules should make it clear up front what's possible, and in what circumstances, so that we DON'T have to rely on arbitrary and authoritarian DM snap decisions made on the spur of the moment. I for one (a) prefer a bit more consistency than that; and (b) prefer to be a referee and facilitator, rather than a dictator, when I'm the GM.
I think one thing the rules are really missing is an action that describes when people take stock of their environment. Battle is a very chaotic thing, and in RL people in combat mistake friends for foes quite a lot.
You could just say that hidden characters do not get noticed by other combatants until that combatant's turn comes up. That would simplify moving between cover, etc, essentially making people in combat count as distracted. The question them becomes, if someone gets ganked by a rogue, do they realize what's happening to them and deny the rogue any other additional sneak attacks that round? Or does a formerly invisible rogue get to stabbify someone 1 or 2 more times with sneak attack?
In any case, the core already has an action on the perception skill description for taking stock of your environment (its a move action). I'd like to the see something similar applied to combat somehow.
I've seen the argument that one cannot use stealth against a creature with scent because they are being perceived by the senses. Scent allows a creature to recognize another creature is there, but doesn't exactly tell them where that creature is right away. So I want to know how that is any different than a person who is aware that another person is hiding in the room but doesn't know where exactly they are (such as if the hiding character used a diversion to go into stealth).
Since they're aware of the hiding member, are they now immune to any sort of sneak attacks? Does this mean they cannot be surprised? If so, why is feinting even effective? It's not like a person forgot they were fighting, unless it is and bluff is a skill able to ruin object permanence... o_O
For a specific example, say that a guard saw a thief run into a room. The guard is fully aware that they went in the room, he just don't know exactly where. It's an average sized room, about 15 ft by 20 ft. As he searches for her, the thief lunges upon him in surprise attack. (She hid 15 feet up in the rafters) Would you rule it as a sneak attack? Now if the guard searching for her had the scent ability, would you rule it differently? Why?
Thanks for putting together this clarification. You have obviously done a great job of researching the rulebooks and other materials to form your synopsis. I uncovered one possible discrepency in regards to your ruling on multiple sneak attacks by a hidden attacker;
If you begin an attack action while you are Unobserved, meaning you are already Invisible or Stealthed before you begin this attack, then your opponent is denied his DEX bonus to his Armor Class and you can Sneak Attack this opponent. Your first attack (if you have more than one) will reveal you to this opponent, automatically removing your Invisibility or Stealth benefits (this is not true of Improved Invisibility) which means that only your first attack gets the benefits of being Invisible or Stealthed; subsequent attacks in this round are treated as normal attacks.
And the descripton of Flat-Footed from the OGC;
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD) (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat or Uncanny Dodge class ability.
The way I read this, a rogue can sneak attack a foe multiple times in one round if the target is flat-footed. The FF status is removed once the defender takes his turn, not once he is attacked. This situation would only occur on the first round of combat. Your ruling as it is written now would still pertain to a hidden foe attacking a target who has already acted in the fight.
