I know its going to be a while before we get the mass battle rules, but I was curious how many of your were planning on pulling your copies of Heroes of Battle out to help wage some serious war?
I used to have Battlemasters with the 16 ft^2 map. It was back when Games Workshop was working with Milton Bradley and did Heroquest.
Thinking about mass battle makes me think of that game. It was pretty cool. I'm sure the Kingmaker rules will be more abstract than that.
I'm aware. HoB does have a lot of really good stuff for battlefield oriented games in general though. Its updated siege weapon construction and use rules. Lots of good stuff on what it takes to actually create an army. As well as general tactical advise and stuff like command structures and military logistics.
I'm a historian by trade, so a lot of it isn't necessarily new to me, but I think the way it is presented, it could be very handy to have.
Actually, thinking about it now. I'm curious if people have started plotting what their armies will be like on the player end yet. I'm hoping it will allow for a fair bit of variety.
Gimme some mixed unit tactics.
*grins evilly*
Creative Director
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Alas, Heroes of Battle isn't open content, so we couldn't reference that book in the adventure at all, and thus the entire adventure isn't even really built with that book in mind. You'll probably need to do some major rebuilding/reorganizing of the adventure if you want to use Heroes of Battle to resolve the mass combat elements.
Because the mass combat rules in PF 35 are VERY VERY simplified. We didn't have the room to provide a full, robust mass combat system, but wanted something quick and easy that you can resolve in a few minutes or less of gameplay before getting back to what the game does best—rpg stuff.
Alas, Heroes of Battle isn't open content, so we couldn't reference that book in the adventure at all, and thus the entire adventure isn't even really built with that book in mind. You'll probably need to do some major rebuilding/reorganizing of the adventure if you want to use Heroes of Battle to resolve the mass combat elements.
Because the mass combat rules in PF 35 are VERY VERY simplified. We didn't have the room to provide a full, robust mass combat system, but wanted something quick and easy that you can resolve in a few minutes or less of gameplay before getting back to what the game does best—rpg stuff.
*nods* True alas, I guess I will have to wait and see the rules to know what I can do with them.
*anticipates!*
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Creative Director
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Awwwww, I was hoping that the Mass Combat rules would be at least as Complex/Abstract as the kingdom rules if not more so. With stuff like strength and organization factors for military units, supply systems, special rules for monstrous or nonstandard units, combat doctrines for different army types, etc.
Is it going to be rock, paper, scissors birthright type simple? because, that would be a let down.
As for the ToB is it all restricted because the VP system is really good for war type campaigns and as a system its seems abstract enough that you couldn't really copyright it....but I don't really know about stuff like that.
It's not going to be rock, paper, scissors simple. The Mass Combat rules take up 4 pages of text. The basic idea is that you take a creature (be it a 2nd level human warrior or a 8th level elf wizard or an ogre or a red dragon)—any creature with a stat block—and then apply the mass combat rules to turn that stat block into an army of creatures ranging in population from 1 to 2,000, and then you pick tactics and resources and then you fight them against each other. No battlefield map is needed—just a half-dozen or so rolls and damage and shifting strategies to adjust your offense and defense and that's pretty much it.
There's a bit more to it, of course, including morale and upkeep and special attacks and ranged attacks and the like. But it's simple enough that you don't need a single miniature to resolve it, or really even a table top larger than you need to roll a few 1d20s.
We DO use VP-like systems a LOT in our adventures. We tend to rename the points as appropriate for the situation, though. Council of Thieves, for example, tracked "Fame Points" to determine how well your PCs are known in the city. We had "Doomsday Points" at the end of Second Darkness. And so on.
We frankly wanted to try something else for mass combat resolution in Kingmaker BECAUSE we'd been using a VP-like system a lot.
Very interesting James. Thank you.
My players are already looking forward to massive battles, so I am very glad for the preview.
I must say, judging from the (very few) hints Mr. Jacobs let out so far, that the mass combat rules look very promising to me!
One thing where many Mass Combat rules failed was the involvement of PCs. I remeber in Birthright, once our high-level mage was attached to a unit, he could blast enemy armies with impunity.
Will you be introducing a way to attach PCs to fighting units (and use their fireballs and meteor swarms), or are the PCs just going to be leaders (like adding some kind of leadership bonus to their units)?
anything similar to the war machine rules in D&D companion set will do me
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Creative Director
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One thing where many Mass Combat rules failed was the involvement of PCs. I remeber in Birthright, once our high-level mage was attached to a unit, he could blast enemy armies with impunity.
Will you be introducing a way to attach PCs to fighting units (and use their fireballs and meteor swarms), or are the PCs just going to be leaders (like adding some kind of leadership bonus to their units)?
A PC in a battle can serve as a leader for his troops, but that more or less just reduces the PC down to his Charisma modifier, which he applies to morale checks for his army.
You COULD take a single PC's stat block and translate it into a Fine-sized army (that's an army consisting of one creature), at which point all of his abilities get translated into an army stat block that you can then use to fight against a bigger army. It's very hand-wavy, and doesn't allow for PCs being able to use specific powerful spells (like earthquake or storm of vengeance).
If you have a PC who wants to try to wipe out an entire army with a fireball or a fire storm or something, you should just use the plain old normal Pathfinder combat rules. These Mass Combat rules aren't complex enough to account for that type of interaction.
Maybe someday, though...
The war machine rules were certainly one of the key bits of inspiration, if only for their simplicity compared to something like Battlesystem.
anything similar to the war machine rules in D&D companion set will do me
well done
The war machine rules were certainly one of the key bits of inspiration, if only for their simplicity compared to something like Battlesystem.
anything similar to the war machine rules in D&D companion set will do me
I LOVED the old War Machine rules and found the expansions for it in Dragon magazine really well done. Perhaps in future adventure paths, you'll have the opportunity to expound on your dominion and mass combat rules.
Do the Mass Combat rules accommodate sieges?
As far as spells, given that PF allows countering, maybe high powered spells aren't going to be as effective on the battlefield as one would first think?
I LOVE the idea of a very stylized mass combat. My player ALWAYS beat me at risk, etc... so I might actually have a chance.
As long as it resolves the battle while giving some flavor of the experience, I'm down.
And yes, my players are already looking at things like Craft: Armorsmith, Weaponsmith, Handle Animal, etc to have the best outfitted army on Golarion.
Funny story: I was in the midst of running an "explore-the-frontier-and-build-a-kingdom" campaign when Kingmaker hit the shelves, so we were pretty excited to see how this idea was catching on. We were REALLY stoked to see these rules; I've had to do such little conversion, it's frankly uncanny. Unfortunately, we were already on the brink of the PCs going to war, so we had to come up with our own little system, which I thought I'd slap up here in case anyone else wants to tinker with it or make suggestions.
Battle: When two armies occupy the same hex, both sides make a Commander Check. Tally results below. Defeated side must retreat to an adjacent hex.
Commander Check: 1d10+BAB+Int or Cha+Battle Bonuses/Penalties (see chart below)
Winner Beats Opponent's Check By:
0 (Draw):
Both Sides Roll 1d20: 1-5= Heavy Casualties, 6-15= Moderate Casualties, 16-20=Light Casualties
Less Than 5: Narrow Victory
Victor: Roll 1d20: 1-5= Heavy Casualties, 6-15= Moderate Casualties, 16-20=Light Casualties
Loser: Roll 1d20: 1-5= Heavy Casualties, 6-15= Moderate Casualties, 16-20=Light Casualties, add +5% to casualty results
5-15: Clear Victory
Victor: Roll 1d20: 1-5= Heavy Casualties, 6-10= Moderate Casualties, 11-20=Light Casualties
Loser: Roll 1d20: 1-10= Heavy Casualties, 11-16= Moderate Casualties, 16-20=Light Casualties, add +5% to casualty results
15-25: Decisive Victory
Victor: Roll 1d20: 1= Heavy Casualties, 2-6= Moderate Casualties, 7-20=Light Casualties
Loser: Roll 1d20: 1-15= Heavy Casualties, 16-20= Moderate Casualties, add +5% to casualty results
25+: Crushing Victory
Victor: Victor: Roll 1d20: 1= Heavy Casualties, 2-5= Moderate Casualties, 7-20=Light Casualties
Loser: Roll 1d20: 1-15= Heavy Casualties, 16-20= Moderate Casualties, add +15% to casualty results
Casualties (Troops Too Severely Wounded to Fight or Troops KIA):
Light: 2-5%
Moderate 5-15%
Heavy 15-30%
Bonuses
Well-Trained Troops (Warriors) +1
Highly-Trained Troops (Fighters) +2
Well-Equipped Troops +1
Time to Prepare Defenses (more than 2 days) +1
Minor Fortification (Simple trenches, non-military buildings, etc.) +1
Significant Fortification (Palisades, Choke Points, etc.) +2
Heavy Fortification (Stone walls, boiling oil, etc.) +3
Experienced Commander (Has fought 3 or more battles) +1
Charismatic/Popular Commander +1
Troop Morale High (always applies after a victory) +1
Veteran Troops (Have fought in 3 or more battles) +1
Specialist Troops (Significant force of Cavalry, Archers, Artillery, Spellcasters, etc) Varies
Heroic Efforts (PC performance in special battlefield encounters) Varies
Tactical Maneuver (Make an unmodified Commander check vs. DC; success = +1 or +2, failure = -1) PCs have considerable leeway for creativity in this check; each PC may make one tactical maneuver per battle
Penalties
Inexperienced Troops (Untrained conscripts) -1
Caught by Surprise/Ambushed -2
Tired Troops (always applies for 1 day after a battle) -1
Poorly Supplied Troops -1
Outnumbered -1/degree of magnitude
Troop Morale Low (always applies after a defeat) -1
Inexperienced Commander (has never fought a battle) -1
Unfavorable Terrain (only apply if does not affect both sides) -1
Weather/Time Unfavorable (only apply if does not affect both sides) -1
Heroic Efforts:
At the start of any battle, PCs may choose to attempt any number of heroic efforts. Each heroic effort is a special combat encounter that represents the specific actions of the PCs on the battlefield. Heroic efforts are resolved as follows:
Before entering any Heroic Effort encounter, PCs may do the following:
-Cast spells w/ instantaneous, minute/level, or hour/level duration
-Use magic items (scrolls, potions, etc.)
-Take a "short rest" (recover from short-term effects)
After leaving a Heroic Effort encounter, the following things occur:
-All spells with duration other than instantaneous or hours/level end
-PCs may prep for next Heroic Effort encounter (see above)
Each successful heroic effort brings an appropriate commander check bonus, and additional benefits as listed. NB: Some of these make reference to rolls/checks not detailed in the mechanics from the previous post. These refer to additional phases of combat that I didn't go into (my group might not use them because of their complexity).
List of Heroic Efforts:
Easy (+1/+2 Command Check, CR = Party level or lower):
Relentless Pursuit
You pursue fleeing enemies, cutting them down like dogs.
Bonus: +2 bonus to pursuit/rout roll (stackable).
Defend the Gap
The enemy have broken your line, and you must limit the number that pass through the breach.
Bonus: +2 bonus to opposed roll against enemy pursuit/rout checks (stackable).
Ambush
You have laid a trap for an enemy unit.
Bonus: +1% to enemy casualties (stackable).
Protect the Wounded
Enemy forces have broken through the lines and are approaching your vulnerable casualties. You must protect your wounded until evacuation.
Bonus: -1% to friendly casualties (stackable)
Break the Line
You must lead the charge and shatter the enemy's line so your men can sweep forward into the breach.
Bonus: +2 to pursuit/rout roll (stackable).
Rally the Men
Your troops are retreating, and you must give them back the will to fight.
Bonus: Even if defeated, your troops do not suffer a morale penalty to the next battle.
Lead from the Front
You throw yourself into the thick of the fighting to inspire your men.
Bonus: If successful, PCs count as "popular commanders" (see battle chart). Does not stack.
Capture the Flag
You must capture a banner or other important symbol to strike a blow against the enemy's morale.
Bonus: For the next battle, the enemy loses high morale status (or gains poor morale status if they have already lost high morale status)
Challenging (+2/+3 Command Check, CR = Party level +1/2):
Take the High Ground
The enemy occupies an advantageous position (bridge, hill, etc), and you must expel them.
Bonus: Choose one of the following: +2% enemy casualties (stackable) or -2% friendly casualties (stackable)
Target Enemy Officers
You have sighted a gathering of enemy officers and must kill as many as possible to disrupt enemy command structure.
Bonus: +1d4% to enemy casualties (stackable)
Rescue Unit
A group of your men has been cut off and encircled. You must break through and lead them to safety.
Bonus: -1d4+1% friendly casualties (stackable).
Rearguard
As your troops fall back, you delay the enemy to ensure a safe retreat.
Bonus: +5 bonus to opposed roll against enemy pursuit/rout checks (stackable).
Target Enemy Champion
You have spotted one of the enemy's most powerful warriors, and you must kill him to weaken enemy morale.
Bonus: For the next battle, the enemy automatically has low morale status.
Flush out the Enemy
Enemy skirmishers are hiding in unusual terrain that obscures movement/vision (mist, darkness, marsh, etc). You must seek them out and destroy them.
Bonus: For the next battle, the enemy suffers a -5 to their Command check during the Skirmish Phase.
Destroy Supplies
You have infiltrated the enemy position and must destroy as many supplies as possible before they can repel you.
Bonus: For the next battle, the enemy counts as poorly supplied.
Protect the Supplies
Enemy raiders have snuck behind your lines and are destroying valuable supplies. You must drive them off before they cause too much damage.
Bonus: For the next weekly turn, your troops can make their extra move/fortify action without becoming tired.
Difficult (+5/+6 Command Check, CR = Party level +2/3):
Target Enemy Specialists
A specialist unit is wreaking havoc on your forces, and you must eliminate their threat.
Bonus: -1d6+1% friendly casualties (stackable).
Hold the Line
Enemy shock troops are approaching, and you must defeat them to blunt the enemy's advance.
Bonus: +10 bonus to opposed roll against enemy pursuit/rout checks (stackable).
Capture the Plans
You infiltrate the enemy camp to capture important enemy documents revealing troop strength, attack plans, etc.
Bonus: For the next weekly turn, you may see the enemy's moves before making your own.
Battlefield Challenge
In the thick of the fighting, you encounter another band of enemies whose stature and skill equals your own. Troops from both sides clear the way to watch this showdown.
Bonus: You capture valuable enemy gear (NPC equipment).
Cut Your Way Back
After leading a successful charge, you ended up on the wrong side of the enemy lines. You must cut your way back to your men.
Bonus: As long as you command your men, they never suffer morale penalties.
Spoils of War
You have located the enemy's war chest, and must capture as much of their gold as possible before being driven off.
Bonus: You gain a substantial amount of cash.
Desperate (+10 Command Check, CR = Party level +3/4):
Target Enemy General
You have spotted the enemy commander, and you must cut through his bodyguards to eliminate him.
Bonus: If the enemy retreats, the PCs automatically succeed at any regroup, rout, or pursuit rolls. During all subsequent battles, all enemy commanders suffer a -1 penalty to command checks [stackable].
Last Stand
You must hold off relentless waves of enemy troops.
Bonus: If the PCs' army retreats, the enemy may not make any regroup, pursue, or rout checks. During all subsequent battles, PCs gain a +1 fear bonus to AC against non-named enemies [stackable].
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You COULD take a single PC's stat block and translate it into a Fine-sized army (that's an army consisting of one creature), at which point all of his abilities get translated into an army stat block that you can then use to fight against a bigger army.
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(emphasis mine)
Thinking about the mass combat rules, I wondered how to handle units with a different number of creatures. While it is easy to use, for example, the stat block of an orc and the stat block of a dwarf to simulate a battle of 100 orcs vs. 100 dwarfs, it isn't obvious how to factor in a unit of 10 elves into that battle.
If I read your comment right, the solution in the mass combat rules is to use special size modifiers based on unit size?