That's a good point. By the RAW, yes it would. However, as the GM I would rule otherwise, given the design and use of the weapon. Come to think of it, I'm not sure why a spiked chain doesn't do both piercing and bludgeoning damage...
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I would be very careful when houseruling underwater combat. IF you rule out Spiked Chain, the next question will be "what about Lightning Bolt ?".
The underwater 3.5 rules are wonky and it's best to leave them as "normal rules with modified movement and breathing". Else you will bite more than you can chew :)
Sadly despite all logic as a piercing weapon a spiked chain does in fact work underwater...just remember its a game not everything adhears to logic.
I would be very careful when houseruling underwater combat. IF you rule out Spiked Chain, the next question will be "what about Lightning Bolt ?".
To which I would reply as I always have, with my other house rule that has stuck around since it appeared in 1st edition: Lightning bolt causes a 20 foot radius area at the point where the bolt enters the water.
Yes, I realize the rules of the game often don't coincide with logic, but I can't in good conscience penalize a person swinging a greatsword underwater, but let the guy with the spiked chain swing away unimpeded simply because of the type of damage it deals out when they're basically delivering said damage using the same motion.
At least a spiked chain attack is exceedingly more feasible underwater than anything that does bludgeoning damage.
Which mans if you're casting the spell underwater the effect is centered on YOU. :)I would be very careful when houseruling underwater combat. IF you rule out Spiked Chain, the next question will be "what about Lightning Bolt ?".To which I would reply as I always have, with my other house rule that has stuck around since it appeared in 1st edition: Lightning bolt causes a 20 foot radius area at the point where the bolt enters the water.
Exactly. Of course, my players are savvy enough to work with this mechanic and combine it with protection from energy as an effective tactic.
My house rule:
"Melee Attacks Underwater: All attacks with slashing or bludgeoning weapons [not natural weapons] have -2 attack and deal half damage.
This rule will also include swinging weapons, including but not limited to: dagger (when used for slashing), morningstar, light & heavy pick, light & heavy spiked shield, spiked armor, halberd (when used for slashing), scythe (when used for slashing), spiked chain, gnome hooked hammer, dwarven urgrosh (when used for slashing), etc."
I think a big part of the problem is that the spiked chain is really mislabeled as a piercing weapon. It doesn't pierce.
IMO, for any weapon to be effective, it must do one of these things:
1. break bones (most crushing weapons fill this role nicely)
2. create gaping gashes in flesh (most slashing weapons do this very well)
3. penetrate vital organs (most piercing weapons do this very well)
Which of those does a spiked chain accomplish?
Well, it's a bit like a flail (crushing) and can be argued that whacking someone with a heavy metal chain can break bones. But I'm not convinced that a spiked chain has the same bone-crunching capacity as a mace or hammer. Still, it might fit this role, but it's worth noting that a normal chain with no spikes could also fit this role.
The spikes on a spiked chain are not long enough to be truly effective at piercing vital organs - you would never see those short little spikes rupturing someone's heart or lungs. Maybe a spleen - that's pretty close to the surface - but a person can live on without a spleen for a while.
When I think of a spiked chain, it reminds me of a scourge (whip, often with many short lashes, always with bits of sharp metal studded throughout the lashes for the purpose of making it "spiked" or "barbed"). Want to see a scourge in action? Look no further thn the movie "The Passion of the Christ". After just a few lashes, you see so much flesh torn that ribs are exposed. That's what I think a spiked chain would do - rend the flesh leaving big gaping gashes as the chain whips by, its spikes snagging flesh and muscle and tearing it away.
Which, in my mind, makes this weapon do slashing damage (much like the teeth on a saw).
My house rule:
"Melee Attacks Underwater: All attacks with slashing or bludgeoning weapons [not natural weapons] have -2 attack and deal half damage.
This rule will also include swinging weapons, including but not limited to: dagger (when used for slashing), morningstar, light & heavy pick, light & heavy spiked shield, spiked armor, halberd (when used for slashing), scythe (when used for slashing), spiked chain, gnome hooked hammer, dwarven urgrosh (when used for slashing), etc."
It might be easier to say something like:
"Melee Attacks Underwater: Stabbing weapons are not hindered while used underwater, all attacks with non-stabbing weapons [not natural weapons] have -2 attack and deal half damage."
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It does indeed seem strange that slapping a pike on a club suddenly changes the speed of the weapon in an underwater environment.
This thread is in the Pathfinder rules neighborhood, so I suppose it doesn't do a lot of good to admit I still use a 3rd Edition adaptation of the underwater rules from AD&D 1st Edition.
But it's worth mentioning that there's a valid reason for a game to have "complicated" rules for how magic or weapons or whatnot function in exotic enviornments (underwater, on other planes, etc.): those various rules change the game and make those enviornments feel different.
If the fighter has a ring of free action and everybody's under the effects of water breathing, then an underwater adventure isn't that much different from a land-based one.
I would be very careful when houseruling underwater combat. IF you rule out Spiked Chain, the next question will be "what about Lightning Bolt ?".To which I would reply as I always have, with my other house rule that has stuck around since it appeared in 1st edition: Lightning bolt causes a 20 foot radius area at the point where the bolt enters the water.
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I like this ruling (and the centered on you :) What I did was give a -2 to the reflex save.
Any progress on figuring out the stats of the Spiked Chain Underwear?
I think it should be +2 AC at best, and have a very high armor check penalty... ;-)
I think a big part of the problem is that the spiked chain is really mislabeled as a piercing weapon. It doesn't pierce.
IMO, for any weapon to be effective, it must do one of these things:
1. break bones (most crushing weapons fill this role nicely)
2. create gaping gashes in flesh (most slashing weapons do this very well)
3. penetrate vital organs (most piercing weapons do this very well)Which of those does a spiked chain accomplish?
Well, it's a bit like a flail (crushing) and can be argued that whacking someone with a heavy metal chain can break bones. But I'm not convinced that a spiked chain has the same bone-crunching capacity as a mace or hammer. Still, it might fit this role, but it's worth noting that a normal chain with no spikes could also fit this role.
The spikes on a spiked chain are not long enough to be truly effective at piercing vital organs - you would never see those short little spikes rupturing someone's heart or lungs. Maybe a spleen - that's pretty close to the surface - but a person can live on without a spleen for a while.
When I think of a spiked chain, it reminds me of a scourge (whip, often with many short lashes, always with bits of sharp metal studded throughout the lashes for the purpose of making it "spiked" or "barbed"). Want to see a scourge in action? Look no further thn the movie "The Passion of the Christ". After just a few lashes, you see so much flesh torn that ribs are exposed. That's what I think a spiked chain would do - rend the flesh leaving big gaping gashes as the chain whips by, its spikes snagging flesh and muscle and tearing it away.
Which, in my mind, makes this weapon do slashing damage (much like the teeth on a saw).
New poster here, but if you look at the image of the spiked chain (it's quite different from 3.5's now), it literally looks like an 8 inch spike on the end of a chain.
I believe that's why they have it as piercing damage.
Any progress on figuring out the stats of the Spiked Chain Underwear?
I think it should be +2 AC at best, and have a very high armor check penalty... ;-)
No No, that;'s only when the spikes are on the inside. On the outside it gives you a +2 bonus on diplomacy checks to NPC's who are 'into that kind of thing'
Theoretically I suppose It should do all three but should only be slashing at reach. If you wrap the non spiked part around your hand its a bludgeon, If you swing it like whip its a slash, and if you actually wield the spike as a thrusting weapon its a piercing attack. Again way to cumbersome and overpowered so they just made it piercing. But I would say calling it a slashing weapon, as that is the method it is normally wielded is the best call and eliminates the underwater arguement all together.