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-Doug (who has no desire to see any part of Mexico except for little town that gave us the fish taco. But don't worry, I'm not racist. I don't want to see to much of Canada, either. Except Vancouver and Nova Scotia.).Oooh, that's really unfortunate.
A simple trip to cancun will bring two things you really ought to see before you die.
1) Hundreds of drunken college co-eds in slight bikinis.
2) The fantastic Mayan ruins of Chichen-Itza, one of the most spectacular sites I have ever seen in my entire life. Pretty much any gamer will instantly fall in love with the place.
I still want to visit Chichen-Itza one day. And Cozumel ain't that bad.....
On my honeymoon, our cruise ship did doc in Costa Maya - a relatively new port at the time, with a lot of development going on. There were some Mayan ruins there as well, which we did tour. It was pretty cool, because they were still in the process of restoring the site. We walked down a street, one side of which had been uncovered, but the other side was still overgrown. It was pretty neat.
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WHOA NELLY!!!
Ok I will try to be more direct in my posts so as not to be acused of ranting again but you are makeing a very serious mistake by lumping the TEA Party movement with some type of racist milita groups. Nothing and I mean NOTHING could be further from the truth.I'm not going to extole the virtues of the tea party on this board but please visit one of THEIR official websites and not one put out by the oposition. I know for a fact that the tea party welcomes all races,genders and religions. I have attended the local tea party rallies to hear first hand exactly what they are about. I have also visited websites dedicated to getting opposition members in fromt of cameras to spread racist and false statements.
From my understanding of the basic tea party dogma a less intrusive smaller federal government is a very good thing and something that every american should expect. Keeping it's citizens safe and provideing the basic services that it was designed for should be all it has the power and funding to do.
I can say with absolute bconviction that the local tea party here in norfolk,VA is in no way shape or form racist nor do they support a milita in any capacity. If you would like more information I will be glad to provide links or talk off boards.
Oklahoma Tea Partiers Consider Creating Militia
These are tea party leaders that are advocating creating a militia to prevent federal incursions into their state's rights (unfortunately I also happen to live in Oklahoma and it scares the s@%* out of me).
As to the te partiers being racist, how do you explain the signs showing obama dressed up as an African witch doctor (they did hitler too, but libs did that to Bush so it's a draw) or the fact that less than 1% of tea partiers are black or the fact that a group of them shouted "the n-word" at some black congressmen? Individual actions? Maybe. But I sure didn't hear any outcry denouncing these actions from within the tea party.
WHOA NELLY!!!
Ok I will try to be more direct in my posts so as not to be acused of ranting again but you are makeing a very serious mistake by lumping the TEA Party movement with some type of racist milita groups. Nothing and I mean NOTHING could be further from the truth.I'm not going to extole the virtues of the tea party on this board but please visit one of THEIR official websites and not one put out by the oposition. I know for a fact that the tea party welcomes all races,genders and religions. I have attended the local tea party rallies to hear first hand exactly what they are about. I have also visited websites dedicated to getting opposition members in fromt of cameras to spread racist and false statements.
From my understanding of the basic tea party dogma a less intrusive smaller federal government is a very good thing and something that every american should expect. Keeping it's citizens safe and provideing the basic services that it was designed for should be all it has the power and funding to do.
I can say with absolute bconviction that the local tea party here in norfolk,VA is in no way shape or form racist nor do they support a milita in any capacity. If you would like more information I will be glad to provide links or talk off boards.Oklahoma Tea Partiers Consider Creating Militia
These are tea party leaders that are advocating creating a militia to prevent federal incursions into their state's rights (unfortunately I also happen to live in Oklahoma and it scares the s!!* out of me).
As to the te partiers being racist, how do you explain the signs showing obama dressed up as an African witch doctor (they did hitler too, but libs did that to Bush so it's a draw) or the fact that less than 1% of tea partiers are black or the fact that a group of them shouted "the n-word" at some black congressmen? Individual actions? Maybe. But I sure didn't hear any outcry...
All squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares.
.... or the fact that a group of them shouted "the n-word" at some black congressmen? ...Cool, so I guess you're enjoying that $100,000 that was being offered for proof that this actually happened?
Absence of evidence != evidence of absence.
Besides, I guarantee the tea party contains at least some racists; pretty much any sizable group of people does. The question isn't "do they exist?"; the question is "do they represent the core values and beliefs of the organization?" The "problem" with the tea party is they lack a hierarchy or structure, meaning anyone can claim to represent their views. As a result, it's hard to figure out what they stand for, or even who is a "real" tea party member. If they want to have a group identity, then they're going to need to change that.
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.... or the fact that a group of them shouted "the n-word" at some black congressmen? ...Cool, so I guess you're enjoying that $100,000 that was being offered for proof that this actually happened?
So if it wasn't caught on tape it didn't happen? These are respected (well fairly depending on how much you respect elected officials) congressmen at least one of whom was active in the civil rights era. That man has done more for the country so far than most people will ever do...and he's still in congress so he's not done yet. It's apalling that people in general, even moreso a servicemember (which IIRC you are), would question a man like that's integrity.
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Absence of evidence != evidence of absence..... or the fact that a group of them shouted "the n-word" at some black congressmen? ...Cool, so I guess you're enjoying that $100,000 that was being offered for proof that this actually happened?
Not at all. However, from what I've read and seen, the gentleman who originally threw this accusation out there later changed his story after video contradicted his original statements.
In addition, there were hundreds of people there, amny of whom had cameras, cell phones/with cameras, etc. and none of them caught this. Even the one of the black congressmen had a camera, yet nothing. Nor has anything been shown by the multitude of news organizations that were present. All this after an accusation that the N-word was yelled 15 times.
In contrast, the insult hurled at Barney Frank once, was caught on film.
Besides, I guarantee the tea party contains at least some racists; any sizable group of people does. The question isn't "do they exist?"; the question is "do they represent the core values and beliefs of the organization?"
And the same could be said of the extreme radicals of the left. Big difference is, how many people have the Tea Party hurt? I know for a fact that several tea party folks have been attacked - among them Kenneth Gladney (beaten by SEIU thugs), and the Tea Party Express in Nevada (eggs thrown at their bus). There was even one conservative protestor who had his finger bitten off - can't remember the name.
The "problem" with the tea party is they lack a hierarchy or structure, meaning anyone can claim to represent their views. As a result, it's hard to figure out what they stand for, or even who is a "real" tea party member.
That's what a grass roots movement is all about. I seem to recall folks on the left didn't have a problem with it when it was their grassroots movement. The Tea Party has, however, started to organize on a more national level.
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Montalve, since Bugleyman thinks Mexican immigration law is irrelevant he and I's discussion, I will say this to you: Homeslice, I love you to death, but I highly recommend you read Mexico's immigration law, which is a hundred times more xenophobic, racist and patently unfair than Arizona's before you start throwing stones.
I've spent two days in a jail in Piedras Negras because I forgot my driver's license at the hotel under your immigration laws. I know first hand, having spent time in jail on this side of the border with illegal entrants from Mexico, that we treat your people much better than your country treated me.
Derek, I know Mexican policies are hypocrital and nefast... check one or 2 of my post above... hey i know it first hand... our laws are made to sustain a golden class of politicians in the power and making themselves richer and richer and protecting. most of the time in Mexico if you have money and connections you don't even touch the jail... (unless you have a very honest police there) if you lack this and get into trouble... yeah (i remember a friend whose car WAS crashed by another car, they were a couple, the woman was pregmant... her fountain broke... the police took my friend to pass a night on jail while they got things straight... he washurt on he back ina cold jail after being crashed by someone else, yet he was taken to jail... yeah i loveMexican sistem where you are presumed guilty until proven innocen)
which is WHY I don't contribute with this discussion... ITS your DAMN country, politicians will say mass and while torn their clothes butthey all care about votes. hispanic immigrants are already under a risk... what worries most people where I live is that they would be stopped just for being latin when they are shopping, orthe hundreds that study there... or the ones who cross every day to work but live in this side of the border. but at leastthis (except maybethestudents)usually have their papers with them.
my reference for this original answer was when Jared says that the only reason Mexico is Known is for their illegal immigrants, drug cartels, violence and Tijuana...
the references of Tindall about all hispanic immigrant to be murderers, violent assassin, and so forth.
I have family on the other side who is not as fortunate as I am (or some who are more fortunate than I am, damn they earn more...) and I know them not to be murderous bastards... so aye I believe the people who get all immigrants into lazy, violents hispanics (illegal or not) into the same bag to be prejudicd ignorants :P
PS... yes I exagerated a couple of their comments :P but I am at work to search for them specifically.
And the same could be said of the extreme radicals of the left.
Absolutely. In fact, I as much as said so in my post...
Big difference is, how many people have the Tea Party hurt? I know for a fact that several tea party folks have been attacked - among them Kenneth Gladney (beaten by SEIU thugs), and the Tea Party Express in Nevada (eggs thrown at their bus). There was even one conservative protestor who had his finger bitten off - can't remember the name.
Video or it didn't happen!
Seriously, though, "extreme radicals" are extremists, irrespective of political leanings. A willingness to hurt others to accomplish their goals is part of what makes them "extreme radicals."
That's what a grass roots movement is all about. I seem to recall folks on the left didn't have a problem with it when it was their grassroots movement....
Again, if you actually believe that one side is, as a rule, more polite and principled than the other, then you just (1) aren't paying attention, or (2) aren't capable of being objective.
As to whether the Tea Party is "grassroots," that's a can 'o worms I'm going to leave unopened.
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Montalve could be peddling chiclet right now and you just insulted her(him?). I was just looking for a hook up for my chiclet fix, and thought I'd ask an expert.So, you're saying that he's an expert on chiclets? And how did you come to that conclusion? Amuse me. Please draw me a picture from point A to point B because apparently I'm a moron.
Urizen, thanks for the support :)
Don't worry yourself, I take the things from where they come so the prejudiced coment about chiclets only amused me. he actualy proves my point when I make references about prejudiced ignorants.just as a token, yes... unfortunately is a common sight in LOTS, maybe most stops with a semaphore to see either either "niños de la calle" or old women with either sleeping or drugged childs on their back selling among other things chiclets and other kind of sweets...
when i arrived to Hermosillo 13 years ago that sihgt was non existant.. now it has become more and more common...
its something sad that doesn't make us proud.
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As for number 2, I was planning on visiting the ruins in Belize. Belize also has the benefit of cool phosphorescent plankton. I forget where, but how cool would it be to swim in glowing water? Chichen-Itza does look cool, though.
Oooh, that's really unfortunate.
A simple trip to cancun will bring two things you really ought to see before you die.
1) Hundreds of drunken college co-eds in slight bikinis.
2) The fantastic Mayan ruins of Chichen-Itza, one of the most spectacular sites I have ever seen in my entire life. Pretty much any gamer will instantly fall in love with the place.
Erik you forgot the cenotes... which I also recommend.. they are wonderful magical places...
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Big difference is, how many people have the Tea Party hurt? I know for a fact that several tea party folks have been attacked - among them Kenneth Gladney (beaten by SEIU thugs), and the Tea Party Express in Nevada (eggs thrown at their bus). There was even one conservative protestor who had his finger bitten off - can't remember the name.
Video or it didn't happen!
Seriously, though, "extreme radicals" are extremists, irrespective of political leanings.
I honestly don't know if there is video of the Ken Gladney beating. But he was attacked while handing out signs at a rally, and they've got some SEIU gentlemen on trial for it.
And the police were investigating the egg throwing at the Tea Party Express bus. Here's an article about it (with some videos) from Breitbart's website I believe they eventually identified one of those involved as a state Democratic party official.
And, seriously, you are correct. there are extremist radicals on both sides. My point was that, so far, the Tea Party events have been largely peaceful except when they have been the target's of attacks, or vicious accusations. It's deplorable when either side does it.
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-Doug (who has no desire to see any part of Mexico except for little town that gave us the fish taco. But don't worry, I'm not racist. I don't want to see to much of Canada, either. Except Vancouver and Nova Scotia.).Oooh, that's really unfortunate.
A simple trip to cancun will bring two things you really ought to see before you die.
1) Hundreds of drunken college co-eds in slight bikinis.
2) The fantastic Mayan ruins of Chichen-Itza, one of the most spectacular sites I have ever seen in my entire life. Pretty much any gamer will instantly fall in love with the place.
I would also suggest Tulum. Wonderful sight. Lovely beach. I have tons of photos of the ruins and they are in as good of shape as Chichen-Itza.
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Sounds like he was trying to apply for a Work Visa, so the that was not an issue with racism, but with the Law on applying for a work visa.
To get a work Visa the company has to prove that the foreigner can do the job better then an american, or only the foreigner can do the Job, Next line...
The employer must prove that there are no unemployed US workers willing or able to do the work. This is established through the state's employment agency using a labor certification process. This process requires a recruitment campaign, including advertising in a local newspaper for available temporary workers.
Work Visas requiring specific training and degrees or "speciality occupations", are much easier to get.
SO the official was not being racist, he was just doing his Job.
understandable.
The real problem with immigration law boils down to the Feds' refusal to work out a fair and efficient guest worker program. If it weren't so difficult for honest, decent people to get authorization to work here, people wouldn't flout the law.
part of the problem certainly
I honestly don't know if there is video of the Ken Gladney beating. But he was attacked while handing out signs at a rally, and they've got some SEIU gentlemen on trial for it.
Attacking me personally instead of my argument seems like, I don't know...victory for me?
Except I was attacking your argument, using your name in an example.
Logic fail.|
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First, thank you for responding to my idea. I appreciate also the perspective of someone outside the U.S. as well.
I think for (1) if all Mexicans were suddenly Americans, then American wage laws would apply, tax collection would increase, but wages would also increase. I agree that many businesses would have to adapt rapidly or perish, but I also think that the benefits to the worker would be phenomenal.
(2) (3) and (5) I think we see eye-to-eye on. :)
As for (4), NAFTA/TLC did end up being ... less good ... than it was supposed to be. With no border, no NAFTA (well, excpet for those Canadians). There is certainly a large economic opportunity in Mexico, but it seems two countries cannot realize that.
And I certainly agree that politicians would have a big problem with this idea. After all, they would lose a lot of their power and influence. The older I get, the more convinced I am that politicinas no longer even offer a pretense of representing their constituents and just want their own little kingdoms.
I am interested to see how nations adapt to an increasingly global economy. I do hope that we can work to bring up the poorer nations and not bring down the richer nations. Eventually we will all be on the same page (economically-speaking).
no prolem, this idea actually bring my inner hamster to work.
and agree about #1... i know many mexicans would have a problem with this (many will of course, as Clinton just recently said "mexicans are very defensive about their soberany" even when offered help... cof cof... actually one of the reasons I dislike Benito Juarez (one of our historical heroes) is that he was preparing a threaty where Panama Chanel would have been in the thinner part of our country in the Itzmo of Tehuantepec... allowing US army free movement in the country... its not to surprising that he died soon after from a "enfermedad fulmunate"... we believe he was poisoned by his collaborators...)
the problem is that US would not take this advancement because it would take the tattractive thing for companies to come here... theyare already loosing said interest and are moving to China!
now China is pretty smart... they open places, quite cheaply, less wages, less taxes... but ask for local professionals to work on such places... they learn the process then they are offered money to open their own companies... and then we have myriad of similar companies with gorwing quaility control as they learn the process...
but returning to the Mexico being annex...
certainly NAFTA blewin the face of both countries in more than one way, even if it helped in other instances
and...now see it the other way... annexing a new country, this size they would need an infraestructure similar to yourown states... that mean our politicians becoming your politicians... do you really believe washington would survive an infuse of Mexican politicians?
mmm well about global economics.. I believe that in less than a hundred years, unless we destoy us all before, the world would become fully globaliced with small groups always trying to disband the whole.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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So if it wasn't caught on tape it didn't happen? These are respected (well fairly depending on how much you respect elected officials) congressmen at least one of whom was active in the civil rights era. That man has done more for the country so far than most people will ever do...and he's still in congress so he's not done yet. It's apalling that people in general, even moreso a servicemember (which IIRC you are), would question a man like that's integrity..... or the fact that a group of them shouted "the n-word" at some black congressmen? ...Cool, so I guess you're enjoying that $100,000 that was being offered for proof that this actually happened?
The 'respected congressman' in question decided, knowing full well that those 'evil bigoted tea partiers' were protesting, to walk across the protest rather than take the tunnels congressmen normally take. He was disappointed nothing happened, so he made it up.
He might be more believable if a) he acted like he actually believed the invictive he claims was uttered and b) he didn't have a history of tarring his opponents.
As it stands, we have one man, who has backed away from his accusations, against hours of video tape tearing his accusations to shreds.
Alright folks. I know this is a hot-button issue, and it's one that's hard to discuss without race coming into it. However, Paizo tries to provide a friendly atmosphere and hate and bigotry will not be tolerated.
Consider this thread on notice.
I wish to address what I consider a misconception about my posts.
the references of Tindall about all hispanic immigrant to be murderers, violent assassin, and so forth.
By Montalve.
If any of my posts could be taken as such Then I wish to apologise for not makeing myself clearer on the subject of ILLEGAL Immagration.
I do not in anyway shape or form support criminal activity and by definition being in ANY country other than the one you were born in or migrated to legally makes anyone an ILLEGAL alien. RACE has no factor.
I have just gone back and reread all my posts and while it was never my intention to say that "all" of any race are this way or that I can see how they could be taken in such a manner on such a heated topic.
I related in my first post my own personal experiance with a illegal alien, then I sited(poorly) a news article from a respected newspaper about crime rates that I thought were relevamnt to the topic. I don't see me saying in any post that "all" hispanic/mexicans/brown people/anyone else has the exlusive ability to commit crimes.
I am not going to apologise for my belief that ALL ILLEGALS by the fact that they are here ILLEGALLY!! are criminals and should be deported post haste and the borders need to be more tightly guarded. That in a nut shell is the only point I was trying so ineptly(aparantly) to convey. Again RACE has nothing to do with it. We simply need to better control the flow of traffic on our borders.
That is all.
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if the police stop someone suspicious and start talking to them and they don't speak english that would be considered a good reason to question their citizenship. you who are offended by this need to realize the immigration problem and stop complaining and help find a way to solve the problem. if you don't pay taxes then you should not get free medical treatment and a drivers license. the police don't go around looking for ways to mess with people cuz they think it is fun,
Wait, we get free medical treatment? What country is this?
Seriously, it is IMPOSSIBLE for private citizens to influence government in America anymore. Ever since corporations and banks were granted the same rights as individual citizens, the actual inhabitants of the country have lost all power, politically. The only way to influence policy is to complain. That way, maybe, MAYBE, someone will listen to what we have to say.
if the police stop someone suspicious and start talking to them and they don't speak english that would be considered a good reason to question their citizenship. you who are offended by this need to realize the immigration problem and stop complaining and help find a way to solve the problem. if you don't pay taxes then you should not get free medical treatment and a drivers license. the police don't go around looking for ways to mess with people cuz they think it is fun,Wait, we get free medical treatment? What country is this?
Seriously, it is IMPOSSIBLE for private citizens to influence government in America anymore. Ever since corporations and banks were granted the same rights as individual citizens, the actual inhabitants of the country have lost all power, politically. The only way to influence policy is to complain. That way, maybe, MAYBE, someone will listen to what we have to say.
I'm praying that gets overturned. Corporations are NOT people.
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I wish to address what I consider a misconception about my posts.
the references of Tindall about all hispanic immigrant to be murderers, violent assassin, and so forth.
By Montalve.If any of my posts could be taken as such Then I wish to apologise for not makeing myself clearer on the subject of ILLEGAL Immagration.
I do not in anyway shape or form support criminal activity and by definition being in ANY country other than the one you were born in or migrated to legally makes anyone an ILLEGAL alien. RACE has no factor.
I have just gone back and reread all my posts and while it was never my intention to say that "all" of any race are this way or that I can see how they could be taken in such a manner on such a heated topic.
I related in my first post my own personal experiance with a illegal alien, then I sited(poorly) a news article from a respected newspaper about crime rates that I thought were relevamnt to the topic. I don't see me saying in any post that "all" hispanic/mexicans/brown people/anyone else has the exlusive ability to commit crimes.
This is indicitive of the illegal mindset. Look at the crime rates for california. I think the L.A. times did an article about how 95% of all murder warrents were for illegals.
actually it was the line in bold then followed by the mention of the article (it would not be the 1st time that newspaper take numbers from the air to make sure people get certain perception... i know, a friend works in one)
my opinion of what happened to your lady friend? the guy in question, without mattering his nationality should be shot in the testicles and left to die in the desert. period. rapist are nothing but thrash... and in mexican prison the inmates make sure those guys get their proper punishment. in mexico there are two mindsets, yes the mexican machismo (which not always translate in the attitude of the guy, mostly is bravado) but all mexican have mothers, sisters, wifes or daughters... meaning that even criminals if meeting with a rapist and ina position of doing something would do it. specially in jail.
but again i must point, I have family there, both legaly and illegaly and neither are murderous rapist (yes I exagerate the term and I know that is not your idea) and I had a few of them who could pass easily as gringos. even my father would never be suspected of being mexican unless he spoke and he speak english quite well. of course i am darker so I don't have that option :P
I am not going to apologise for my belief that ALL ILLEGALS by the fact that they are here ILLEGALLY!! are criminals and should be deported post haste and the borders need to be more tightly guarded. That in a nut shell is the only point I was trying so ineptly(aparantly) to convey. Again RACE has nothing to do with it. We simply need to better control the flow of traffic on our borders.
That is all.
and you don't have to
is your country... a country ironically created through migration, overt he shoulders of cheap labor along its story, but still your country... so yes I would be angry if someone illegally entered my house and decided to live there.yet the problem persist, ebsides the dangers and the deads every year because there is a chance for a better future there than HERE for most of those person. I understand that many people use the illegals as workers to try to help, but for every one that does this, there are more that use this same kind oflavor because is cheaper, it cost them less taxes, they don't need to pay all benefits they need to pay an "american" (I still believe America is a continent, mind you :P)
that is the same reason why thousands of companies are moving outside US to contries like mine. so they don't have to pay as much for the expensive local workers. take for example the company i work... the main corporation is spending millions of dollars to open a new company in Agua Prieta... where they will carry most of the manual operations done in the ones they have in USA, only the corporative will stay there... but all the process would be done in this side... that means they are shutting lots of works on your side and opening them here. Why? even with the inversion, its cheaper. This is the mindset that is perjudicial to all of us... because its the same mindset that has about 30% or more of Mexico population in mysery (not being poor, there are a lot of poor people, but horrible missery) while we have the guy with more money in the world!
the situation while it doesn't work for the avarage citizen it actually work for goverments and companies... that is why it keeps happening. there have been talks about legal temporal migrations where thousands of mexicans can go just during the harvest and then return to their homes... yet there have been opposition along the years... this would have been a solution to both amexian problem and an US necessity. yet politician have keep it down.
of course that would not stop the problem... but any solution that helps control it should be welcome. immigration even with walls, soldiers, robots, fascist laws (or not, I haven't read it) won't be stopped. its like trying to stop the sea with your hands. until problems within both countries are not fixed the problem would not stop.
[edit]and illegal migrants are already persecuted they stay there with all risk because it pays off... but what worries us is that those with hispanic blood on their veins would be threated like 2nd class citizens for the fact of descending from migrants... either legaly or not. And the fact is that this whole thread was about that... its fun how i do get the point and other did not :P
of course here we call it "La Reconquista" as a joke... :P while chinese and japanese are conquering USA while buying it a company at a time, latinoamericanos are repopulating the area :P
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If you don't like the law work to change it!!! Even better look for a better solution!!!Do you know exactly how much easier said that is than done? Have YOU personally ever tried to influence government policy? One person can't do it. f&@@, a thousand people can't do it.
All I can think of is the old quote: All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
The issue here isn't really a racial issue. It may be a nationality issue, but not racial. Don't believe me? Compare the views of immigration from Cuba to that from Mexico. Racially, these two groups are fairly similar. Nationality and culturally these two are pretty different. Many (but not all) of the people condemning Mexican immigration through questionable means have no problem with Cubans getting to the US in similar fashions. While many (again, not all) who claim to support the Mexican immigrants view the Castro administration in much higher view than those in the other group.
EDIT: Also, here is my solution to the immigration problem. Treat people who hire illegal immigrants like we treat drug dealers. You get caught, everything you own is gone, everything, and you get a prison sentence. Will there be people that still hire illegals? Sure, there are still people that sell drugs after all so this isn't a 100% deterent. But many of the people aren't going to want to risk their entire personal fortune and business, just to save some money on labor.
Crunch the numbers.Again, stats are what they are ... just ask Dr. Michael Mann.
In 1999, the state population was ~ 4.7 million. In 2008, ~ 6.5 million. In a decade the state has grown by nearly half of what it was in 1999. Percentages being what they are, I would expect them to go down unless the percentage of people who are conducting these crimes also goes up at an equal rate. Understand that "people who are conducting these crimes" is NOT tied to any specific demographic, in fact crimes and their severity are equally spread across the entire diverse ethnic background of people. The actual numbers of crimes themselves have remained "steady" within your typical band of increases and decreases, with all sorts of social implications as to whys and wherefores that I'm not certain anyone has a real lead on.
I'm also surprised that Steve Chapman's blog refers to the Ruben Rumbaut and Walter Ewing text that deals largely with immigration as a whole, not just the "illegal" portion of it, whereas an article from Robert J. Sampson in the same magazine has a much more in depth look at that specific situation. His chart starts to make an interesting trend as we get into 2000-2004, but it isn't something I'd make into too much hype.
Good article; Thanks for the link!
EDIT: Also, here is my solution to the immigration problem. Treat people who hire illegal immigrants like we treat drug dealers. You get caught, everything you own is gone, everything, and you get a prison sentence. Will there be people that still hire illegals? Sure, there are still people that sell drugs after all so this isn't a 100% deterent. But many of the people aren't going to want to risk their entire personal fortune and business, just to save some money on labor.
This has been my opinion for years. People that hire illegal labor are the wellspring of the problem, not necessarily the illegal immigrants themselves.
You know damn well what I meant...I do know what you meant, which is why I posted what I did. If you think racial profiling is a great idea, let's start rounding up white Christian veterans and making them prove they're not storing up big piles of fertilizer.
Hell, the most famous and successful terrorist organization in American history was a white veterans' organization. They rode around lynching people and wearing sheets. If you think it's absurd to treat all white people you come across as potential Klansmen, you should think it's just as absurd to treat any brown person you come across as a potential illegal who should be under obligation to prove otherwise.
If you think there's some excuse to treat non-whites worse than whites, we have a word for that.
Bigot?
Racist?
Worthlesswasteofair?
Redneck? /rantSorry, I just cannot stand ignorant racists. Plus this whole tea party thing with them wanting to start militias is just too reminiscent of the civil war. As soon as s#@& starts goin down I'm grabbing my family and headin for canada. The last thing I need are some ignorant teabagging militiamen harrassing (or worse) my family because I'm white, my wife is black, and to top it all off we had the audacity to breed.
Do you realize that implying that, "ignorant teabagging militiamen harrassing (or worse) my family because" of race is its own form of bigotry?
How is assuming the worst about members of a political group better than assuming the worst about members of an ethnic group?
<SNIP> People that hire illegal labor are the wellspring of the problem, not necessarily the illegal immigrants themselves.
Thank you. Where were you two pages ago? ;-)
One must wonder though, if tens of millions of people in the US are breaking a set of laws habitually without harming anyone directly are those laws worthwhile?
Who is saying that no one is harmed? As a former federal agent for the U.S. Border Patrol, I can tell you from first hand experience that there is a great deal of harm going on, DIRECTLY related to illegal immigration. There is also quite a lot of environmental damage from all the litter left behind. How would you feel if a group of people trespassed on your property, broke into your buildings, and left behind a giant mound of garbage and feces when they left? I've seen this happen.
Then there is also the indirect damage, like a greater financial burden for hospitals and clinics near the border, who are required by law to give the same service to everyone (a good thing), even if the person they are treating has never paid a penny into taxes and does not have any insurance.
I have a lot of sympathy for everyone living within 20 miles of the border.
Also, on a related topic, just a general statement to all of the paranoid people out there:
There is no giant government conspiracy going on, designed to harass people. Law Enforcement does NOT = evil. I've purchased food with my own money for many of the people I've arrested. I can tell you that when I was a federal agent, harassing people was the last thing on my mind.
I get tired of hearing people bad-mouth Law Enforcement because they got a speeding ticket sometime in the past and the officer didn't speak politely enough. GET OVER IT.
If you get bad service at a restaurant, are you suddenly going to hate all servers? If you encounter a rude nurse, are you going to suddenly hate all medical personnel? Rude people exist everywhere, in every occupation, and every nation. One, two, or even ten bad experiences does not mean that everyone from group X is a jerk and/or out to get you.
<SNIP> People that hire illegal labor are the wellspring of the problem, not necessarily the illegal immigrants themselves.Thank you. Where were you two pages ago? ;-)
I've been doing pretty good with will saves lately. But it's now springtime in Brooklyn, and a lot of well to do people are hiring migrant laborers to mow their lawns and do all sorts of work to prettify their mansions and it's getting REALLY obvious.
We'll have to build a wall to keep out all these illegal American immigrants.
Sorry, I just cannot stand ignorant racists. Plus this whole tea party thing with them wanting to start militias is just too reminiscent of the civil war. As soon as s@*@ starts goin down I'm grabbing my family and headin for canada.Naw, we only stay for a day or two to pick up your weed and cheap medecine, and then leave.
We don't hang around like a deadbeat friend and eat everything in your fridge.
I actually was talking to this Mexican chick, and she asked me about illegal aliens in this country. I laughed and told her they shouldn't be here illegally. She got pissed off and wouldn't speak to me for, like, an hour, because her parents were illegal.
I told her they should go back to Mexico, then.
I just speak the truth. If they want to break the law, fine, but don't come crying to me when the repercussions hit. Do I hate Mexicans? No. Do I care if illegal Mexican immigrants get racially profiled? Uh, no. Do I care if some innocent people get caught in the crossfire because of this legislation? Yes, but if it gets the job done, then I could care less.
Is this discrimination? Yup, but if they had obeyed the law in the first place, this wouldn't have happened. The bad ones screwed it up for the rest of them.
OK. I will make the "slippery slope argument" directly.
"Do I care if some innocent people get caught in the crossfire because of this legislation? Yes, but if it gets the job done, then I could care less."
Can you see how this reasoning becomes a train wreck when you apply it to other basic human rights?
Tyrants always have some kind of "greater good" argument for tyranny.
I'm praying that gets overturned. Corporations are NOT people.if the police stop someone suspicious and start talking to them and they don't speak english that would be considered a good reason to question their citizenship. you who are offended by this need to realize the immigration problem and stop complaining and help find a way to solve the problem. if you don't pay taxes then you should not get free medical treatment and a drivers license. the police don't go around looking for ways to mess with people cuz they think it is fun,Wait, we get free medical treatment? What country is this?
Seriously, it is IMPOSSIBLE for private citizens to influence government in America anymore. Ever since corporations and banks were granted the same rights as individual citizens, the actual inhabitants of the country have lost all power, politically. The only way to influence policy is to complain. That way, maybe, MAYBE, someone will listen to what we have to say.
I think this merits its own thread.
<SNIP>Tyrants always have some kind of "greater good" argument for tyranny.
+1
BTW, this sort of thing hasn't turned out well in the past: 9500liberty.com
<SNIP> One, two, or even ten bad experiences does not mean that everyone from group X is a jerk and/or out to get you.
Irony...overwhelming. Can't...speak.
I tell you, it's those Mexicans. Except for a few "clean" ones, they're criminals. Plus, who wants a bunch of young workers? It's not like we have an aging population and longer life spans, or anything.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go reflect on Moral Superiority by Accident of Birth.
Are you sure you shouldn't replace "bugley" with "straw" for this post? I understand your frustration, but my that's a loaded post...
And I'm surprised at no response by anyone to the idea of making all Mexicans Americans...
Loaded? Yes. Straw-man? I'm not so sure. In this very thread there is an assumption shared by many that immigrants are more likely to be criminals than natives, an idea that is:
1. Wrong.
2. Racist.
This simply is not so. The very moment they choose to break the laws by entering this country illegaly they become criminals.
This simply is not so. The very moment they choose to break the laws by entering this country illegaly they become criminals.
I must ask you to read the entire thread; this bit of semantics has been well addressed.
One must wonder though, if tens of millions of people in the US are breaking a set of laws habitually without harming anyone directly are those laws worthwhile?Who is saying that no one is harmed? As a former federal agent for the U.S. Border Patrol, I can tell you from first hand experience that there is a great deal of harm going on, DIRECTLY related to illegal immigration. There is also quite a lot of environmental damage from all the litter left behind. How would you feel if a group of people trespassed on your property, broke into your buildings, and left behind a giant mound of garbage and feces when they left? I've seen this happen.
Then there is also the indirect damage, like a greater financial burden for hospitals and clinics near the border, who are required by law to give the same service to everyone (a good thing), even if the person they are treating has never paid a penny into taxes and does not have any insurance.
I have a lot of sympathy for everyone living within 20 miles of the border.
Also, on a related topic, just a general statement to all of the paranoid people out there:
There is no giant government conspiracy going on, designed to harass people. Law Enforcement does NOT = evil. I've purchased food with my own money for many of the people I've arrested. I can tell you that when I was a federal agent, harassing people was the last thing on my mind.
I get tired of hearing people bad-mouth Law Enforcement because they got a speeding ticket sometime in the past and the officer didn't speak politely enough. GET OVER IT.
If you get bad service at a restaurant, are you suddenly going to hate all servers? If you encounter a rude nurse, are you going to suddenly hate all medical personnel? Rude people exist everywhere, in every occupation, and every nation. One, two, or even ten bad experiences does not mean that everyone from group X is a jerk and/or out to get you.
This argument sounds a lot like the general social harm argument in favor of drug prohibition and regulation to me.
I favor decriminalization of what adults do with their own bodies; in contrast, I doubt that a broad social safety net and open boarders could be reconciled, so I'm not proposing that, and I don't favor amnesty.
That said, I think laws that the nation cannot or will not enforce are a problem, and we should take a hard look at them.
Some folks like to point out how some other folks are criminals for breaking the law. Obviously this is true on its face, however I dare say that everyone has broken some law at some time whether they know it or not. In effect we are all criminals to some degree. This tells me that there is either something wrong with our system of laws (which I firmly believe) or there is some thing wrong with everyone breaking various laws. Personally I think we have way to many laws and regulations.
There are serious consequences for our utter failure to secure our boarders. I even think it's a duty of the state to uphold state and national sovereignty when the federal government fails to do so. I don't think the supremacy clause supersedes a states right to "defend itself" for want of a better phrase. We have to find a way to avoid the "Catch and release" problem with violent felons.
However the duty and right of all government officials to check immigration status under some circumstances that the law (vaguely) codifies creates real practical problems beyond law enforcement contact. The language of the law is also flexible enough to be open to a lot of potential abuse. Law enforcement has specific training to avoid racial profiling, but what about social workers, Clerks and recorders, workers in treasury, DMV clerks and so forth. At what point has the clerk in some county office failed in the "duty" spelled out by the law? Will they get clear policies to help know the bright line between profiling and due diligence?
I don't accept the hyperbole that this law will instantly throw us back to the days of fire hoses and attack dogs, but there are a tremendous number of unintended consequences caused by this law.
A more narrow law requiring law enforcement to check all subjects identity and legal status following a lawful arrest or detainment might have been workable, but a law that creates a duty for every government worker to make a determination whether or not to question someones immigration status is going to go very wrong sooner or later IMO.
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You have half a point.
Actually I have several, but I thank you for recognizing half of one of them.
I'm used to the undocumented workers who get caught up hee in Ioa, who work under false SSN, rather than for cash.
I'd like to point out that there are no 'false' SSNs, rather all SSNs are real, even ones that should no longer be used (generally due to death or ID theft of the owner). Any SSN used by an illegal immigrant is stolen, be it from a current citizen, or one long perished.
And you hit on the flip side of that yourself: no SSN means a denial of EITC, Child Care Credit, Food Stamps, etc.
Rather I hit on the burden illegal immigrants bear on the system. These entitlement programs are not meant for non-citizens. An illegal immigrant collecting from any of these programs is committing outright theft of services and is a criminal.
Of course, everybody pays state and local sales tax. Everybody who owns property pays property tax. (And it's property taxes that bear the load for education dollars.) Everybody who owns a car pays the vehicle tax and license plate fees.
Not really. Any moron with a debit card can order from Amazon.com (or other websites) for most of their needs bypassing sales taxes.
Illegal immigrants that do own property do indeed pay property tax, but why do people who do not have legal permission to be within this country have credit within this country in the first place? While those that do not pay property taxes and do place their children in schools place undue burden on our schools.
Not everyone that owns a vehicle pays their government mandated fees. I see no reason why an illegal immigrant would bother with exposing themselves to government scrutiny by getting licensed, registered, and insured.
You also neglected to respond to the free medical care offered to illegal immigrants via our emergency room system. In many states free or low cost health case is also offered by various social programs.
Honestly, very little of a foreign citizen's tax burden depends on her being in the country legally.
That depends entirely on how much you make 'on the books'.
Irony...overwhelming. Can't...speak.<SNIP> One, two, or even ten bad experiences does not mean that everyone from group X is a jerk and/or out to get you.
[chuckle]
Illegal immigrants that do own property do indeed pay property tax, but why do people who do not have legal permission to be within this country have credit within this country in the first place? While those that do not pay property taxes and do place their children in schools place undue burden on our schools.
Just to point out that if someone is renting, they are paying property taxes, just indirectly.
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.... or the fact that a group of them shouted "the n-word" at some black congressmen? ...Cool, so I guess you're enjoying that $100,000 that was being offered for proof that this actually happened?Absence of evidence != evidence of absence.
Besides, I guarantee the tea party contains at least some racists; pretty much any sizable group of people does. The question isn't "do they exist?"; the question is "do they represent the core values and beliefs of the organization?" The "problem" with the tea party is they lack a hierarchy or structure, meaning anyone can claim to represent their views. As a result, it's hard to figure out what they stand for, or even who is a "real" tea party member. If they want to have a group identity, then they're going to need to change that.
Absence of evidence of something that allegedly happened when a hundred media outlets and probably a few hundred people with personal recording devices were present and recording = a pretty good chance someone's lying their ass off about being called a racial epithet.
Well, considering the only people identifying any sort of racist "core belief" in the Tea Party would be Obama's staff and their cronies in the press, I'd have to say they're touching a nerve.
And the fact they have no structure or hierarchy works for them, not against them. The impetus of the movement is people getting tired of being screwed by Washington (both parties), by their "organized" leaders.
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or the fact that a group of them shouted "the n-word" at some black congressmen?You do realize this didn't actually happen, right?
As somebody pointed out upthread...the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Just because the tea party at large doesn't want it to be so doesn't necessarily mean that it didn't happen.