Ok, straight to the point (problem):
I’ve got a new campaign getting started; the first game has yet to be played. We’re using a smattering of rules from 3.5 and Pathfinder – heck, we’re flying by the seat of our pants, what with the mixing of the two games.
Anyway, I’ve got a human player character that’s got a 20 Intelligence due to an 18 plus the “+2” to an ability from Pathfinder.
The player has found a feat called “Key Ability Change” (from “Experts” 3.5 maybe?) that allows you to use the modifier from one ability in place of the modifier for another. So, in his case, he’s obviously going to choose his +5 from his 20 Intelligence and use it to replace a much lower modifier (in this case, a -2 from Wisdom).
Um, am I missing something or is this way out of kilter!? Evidently according to the feat’s description, the modifiers aren’t swapped (Intelligence becomes Wisdom, Wisdom becomes Intelligence), but rather the Wisdom modifier becomes the Intelligence modifier.
So, he’s running around with a character whose ability score total is around 75 or 76, but in effect he’s got two 20’s for ability scores when it comes to skills (making his ability score total 95 or 96)!!
Anyone want to talk me back from pressing the veto button on this one!?
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Veto the hell out of that. I know there were some feats to use say, Intelligence for reflex saves, or Charisma for will saves, but never one to completely replace one entire stat. Did he even show you the hard-copy proof that the feat exists? You know what, never mind that because it's possibly one of the most broken feats I've come across. Just say no.
The truth of the matter is there are any number of ridiculous feats and ACFs floating out there for 3.5. One of the hassles of being a 3.5 GM was trying to balance all of the splat crap.
If you're allowing 3.5 stuff in your Pathfinder game, you've got to be careful to make sure it's not gamebreaking.
A feat to allow one modifier to completely replace another is broken. Remember feats should, in general, be weaker than class features. If it were just for a specific skill it would be fine. If it were for a different feature like AC then you're already stepping on class feature toes.
I say junk it and be more careful in the future. The player will be annoyed, and deservedly since you already OKed it, but letting him keep it unbalances the game. I'd be surprised if the other players wouldn't either be ticked about it or be clamoring for it themselves.
Edit: misread your post. Thought you had okayed it and were having second thoughts. Definitely veto.
The devil's in the details, so I'd have to see the fine print before I could judge. Can you carry over the better bonus only on a Tuesday when the moon is full? Once a day on a skill check? Or whenever you want as many times as you desire for any purpose you want?
So what book is it in? I did a search for the feat as named and couldn't find it, so please recheck the name.
I'd allow it, but make him choose three skills it works for instead of ALL of them.
Ok, straight to the point (problem):
I’ve got a new campaign getting started; the first game has yet to be played. We’re using a smattering of rules from 3.5 and Pathfinder – heck, we’re flying by the seat of our pants, what with the mixing of the two games.
Anyway, I’ve got a human player character that’s got a 20 Intelligence due to an 18 plus the “+2” to an ability from Pathfinder.
The player has found a feat called “Key Ability Change” (from “Experts” 3.5 maybe?) that allows you to use the modifier from one ability in place of the modifier for another. So, in his case, he’s obviously going to choose his +5 from his 20 Intelligence and use it to replace a much lower modifier (in this case, a -2 from Wisdom).
Um, am I missing something or is this way out of kilter!? Evidently according to the feat’s description, the modifiers aren’t swapped (Intelligence becomes Wisdom, Wisdom becomes Intelligence), but rather the Wisdom modifier becomes the Intelligence modifier.
So, he’s running around with a character whose ability score total is around 75 or 76, but in effect he’s got two 20’s for ability scores when it comes to skills (making his ability score total 95 or 96)!!
Anyone want to talk me back from pressing the veto button on this one!?
I would deny him. That is way better than class feats, and most Epic level stuff.
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What’s the actual feat description please? Usually feats that allow you to use different modifiers are exclusive to one category and not straight across the board as you describe. Example would be “may use your Int bonus in place of your Str bonus for purposes of attacking.” If that is the case, remember the bonus doesn’t get applied to everything the previous bonus would applied to; so in the previous example +5 toward attack bonus, but not skills which use Str. In the case you point it might applied to all skills but wouldn’t apply to saving throws or vice versus. If the feat is exactly as you describe it then I’d check to make sure it doesn’t have errata which might correct the problem as it most likely wasn’t meant to be that powerful. Though during the early days of the d20 explosion there were a lot of feats put out that had no real thought to them in which case you, being the GM, can still deny it if you think it will disrupt your game.
As for the feat being the "most pow-r-ful feat evar" I’d have to disagree. This is the "most pow-r-ful feat evar":
Chuck Norris
Prerequisite- You are Chuck Norris.
Benefit- Your character is Chuck Norris and can do whatever the hell he damn well pleases; such as finding all treasure and defeating anyone who gets in his way, including but not limited to the DM/GM, any Game Publisher, Jesus, Lassie, and Timmy.
Normal- You roll a d20 to determine if your character will succeed in doing something in the game.
Maybe this is the feat he found.
It was a homebrew on the "Giant in the Playground" forums.
Theurgic Specialization
Requirements: Use of two different key Ability Modifiers for spell DCs, bonus spells per day, and maximum spell castable (or analogues in psionics, invocations, soul melding, or similar systems). They may come from the same class or from two different classes. At least one of these key Ability Modifiers must be Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma.
Benefit: You may change one of the key Ability Modifiers to match the other. It cannot be changed to any Ability Modifier for which you do not have an existing dependence. Which Ability Modifier to switch and which to match must be chosen when this feat is taken and cannot be changed. The resulting key Ability Modifier must be Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma.
Normal: Different features require different Ability Modifiers.
Special: May be used when multiclassing to switch one class to match another, or may be used to allow classes that use different ability modifiers for bonus spells and DCs to use only one. If more than one class uses the same Ability Modifier, only one may be switched at a time. You can gain this feat multiple times. For each instance of this feat, you may switch one more key Ability Modifier.
That has to be it because I know that does not exist in any official hardcover book or even WotC's website. Otherwise it would be on the list of official X mod to Y bonus on the WotC forums.
Reject this feat. Outright. There's plenty of other feats out there that won't just "game the system" so to speak. This thing's broken big time, though.
Yep, reject it. Never seen it before in any manual.
He probably wrote and posted it himself!
::Frantic voice::
"Yes its official its on a games forum! Please let me have it or you'll ruin my character concept!
yea i am almost always slow to call things broken, but this sounds to me on par with the dragon killer from frostburn. This is pretty ludicrous. Replace one stat with another for ONE thing (like a save or skill) sure, but completely replace it? That is just nonsense.
4e has a feat like this that allows you to choose one stat to use for your basic melee attacks, but it doesn't replace for everything -- just basic melee attacks. Maybe he is confusing his editions and effects?
That's either homebrew or third party - it ain't from WotC.
I'd allow it, but make him choose three skills it works for instead of ALL of them.
I think this is the compromise we're going to reach. We'll see how it goes. I can see the use of this feat in a (very) limited fashion, such as applying to just two or three skills that make sense for character background, etc.
The feat is from Experts 3.5, although I personally have not read it.
Thanks for all the feedback, folks!
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Anyone want to talk me back from pressing the veto button on this one!?
I'd love to, but I'm tired and I fear my fast-talk isn't up to it. I might just about manage to sell people landmarks, but this is beyond me.
...
I just got your name.
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What you need to understand about "third party" D&D 3.5 products is, 99.999% of the time, they are complete and utter crap. Always have been.
Pretty much every DM banned all of them outright, and only made very rare and very specific exceptions.
You need to regard "3.5" has "Wizards of the Coast published material", and define "3rd party 3.5" as a separate (and banned) category.
I'd say ban it outright, quite frankly. If they want int to everything they should've made a Factotum.
It's not that powerful. It lets you swap one physical or mental stat modifier for another of the same type (phys to phys, mental to mental), for the purposes of skill checks only. Think about it, does swapping a good Int for your Heal, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive, and Survival really matter that much? It is a feat.
On second thought, you're right. It is broken. I just realized the best application is substituting Wisdom for Intelligence. All Clerics would rock with Knowledge skill....on third thought.....does that really even matter?
I'm trying to figure out what the heck this feat actually does. Mostly sounds broken but really? Lets see the feat or you can't really judge. Maybe the feat is fine but the player is reading it wrong.
Well, with the near unanimous 5-star reviews "Experts" got at Amazon, I'd think one of you yahoos would have a copy =D
Seriously, I won't be able to get an exact wording myself for a few days when I see my bud again.
I'm hoping the problem is simply an interpretation one myself.
From what I know now without having the exact wording, the feat gets wonky when you replace a really low skill modifier with a really high one (e.g. replacing a -2 or -3 with a +4 or +5).
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I'm trying to figure out what the heck this feat actually does. Mostly sounds broken but really? Lets see the feat or you can't really judge. Maybe the feat is fine but the player is reading it wrong.
Fine!....I'll do it....
Alternate Key Ability
This feat allows a character to approach the performance of certain skills in a different way than most people.
Benefit: A character with this feat can substitute one physical key ability or one mental key ability for another for purposes of skill checks. For example, an Expert Acrobat could use his Dex score instead of Str for skills normally governed by Strength, such as Climb or Swim. Or, an Expert Courtesan might use Charisma instead of Wisdom for skills normally governed by the latter ability.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times; each time affects a different combination of skills.
NOTE: This is from the 3.0 Experts page 92, but I am sure it is exactly the same in 3.5 Experts.
See, this is why we need accurate wording of the feat. I was under the impression you took the feat to use the the modifier from one stat for all of another stats relevant rolls. If it's just for skills, that is way different.
That's what I gathered from it.
If it's just for skills then yeah, it's not THAT big of a deal, I guess.
Easy fix.
The feat doesn't exist. Your player either mined online poorly designed homebrew or made it up himself.
I just checked a complete listing of 3.5 feats from all sources - it ain't there.
Besides - if such a feat existed in any official source I would DEFINITELY have heard of it on the optimization circuit.
The feat doesn't seem like a big deal, but I can't imagine using Constitution or Strength for skills like Stealth or Disable Device.
The feat doesn't seem like a big deal, but I can't imagine using Constitution or Strength for skills like Stealth or Disable Device.
You're right. Imagine Charisma on Knowledge checks. It does get fishy. Perhaps the feat could be broken into more than one feat, each with a specific substitution. Same power level, but you can then control the mix. So, you could swap Wis for Int generally, and Dex for Str. Not sure about others but it could be worked out for most applications.
The feat doesn't seem like a big deal, but I can't imagine using Constitution or Strength for skills like Stealth or Disable Device.You're right. Imagine Charisma on Knowledge checks. It does get fishy. Perhaps the feat could be broken into more than one feat, each with a specific substitution. Same power level, but you can then control the mix. So, you could swap Wis for Int generally, and Dex for Str. Not sure about others but it could be worked out for most applications.
The other problem is that there is precedent set for this for a single skill or check (see intimidating prowess, or agile maneuvers). If you allow it for all skills then it makes feats like that obsolete.
The other problem is that there is precedent set for this for a single skill or check (see intimidating prowess, or agile maneuvers). If you allow it for all skills then it makes feats like that obsolete.The feat doesn't seem like a big deal, but I can't imagine using Constitution or Strength for skills like Stealth or Disable Device.You're right. Imagine Charisma on Knowledge checks. It does get fishy. Perhaps the feat could be broken into more than one feat, each with a specific substitution. Same power level, but you can then control the mix. So, you could swap Wis for Int generally, and Dex for Str. Not sure about others but it could be worked out for most applications.
I agree in regards to Intimidating Prowess, but I wouldn't cry if it got superseded. Perhaps the whole thing would be better as a series of focused feats.
As far as Agile Maneuvers though, that swings the other way. Switching out Str for Dex here applies to many combat maneuvers, not just one social skill check.
The feat doesn't seem like a big deal, but I can't imagine using Constitution or Strength for skills like Stealth or Disable Device.You're right. Imagine Charisma on Knowledge checks. It does get fishy. Perhaps the feat could be broken into more than one feat, each with a specific substitution. Same power level, but you can then control the mix. So, you could swap Wis for Int generally, and Dex for Str. Not sure about others but it could be worked out for most applications.
I'm feeling spunky today, so I thought I'd chime in here just because with a couple of these ideas that intrigue me from a purely flavor perspective. Sure, they're kind of a stretch.. but so are a lot of the rules in this game. :) Don't take me too seriously, I'm not suggesting rules changes, and I'm truly not sure if I'd allow the feat in my games or not.. Just having some fun.
Constitution for Stealth: Your character has become so good at controlling his breathing that he becomes much harder to detect, especially while sprinting from shadow to shadow.
Constitution for Disable Device: Your character's pain tolerance and general health are so high that he just springs the traps and shrugs off what comes at him.
Strength for Stealth: Your character's unusual strength allow him to carry himself and his gear in such a way that he makes much less noise. (Can't think of a strength-related visual solution.)
Strength for Disable Device: SNAP! I'm in.
Charisma for Knowledges: Your character's lifetime of interacting with people of expertise in various areas has helped him glean a lot of useful information.
Alternate Key Ability
This feat allows a character to approach the performance of certain skills in a different way than most people.
Benefit: A character with this feat can substitute one physical key ability or one mental key ability for another for purposes of skill checks. For example, an Expert Acrobat could use his Dex score instead of Str for skills normally governed by Strength, such as Climb or Swim. Or, an Expert Courtesan might use Charisma instead of Wisdom for skills normally governed by the latter ability.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times; each time affects a different combination of skills.
Yuck. I'd definitely deny that.
Take a character with an Intelligence of 18 and a Wisdom of 10 and use this feat to apply his Intelligence modifier to Wisdom-based skills.
That gives him a +4 to four different skills (not counting professions) for one feat.
Existing feats only give you a +2 bonus to two skills. So the character above is getting the equivalent of 4 feats.
In the case given by the OP, the PC would be trading Wisdom (-2) for Intelligence (+5). That's a gain of +7 to each of four skills, which would be like having 7 feats.
It might make some sense for characters with the Expert class (as the book likely intends) since NPCs usually have lower ability scores than PCs. But I'd say it's way too much for a PC.
Alternate Key Ability
This feat allows a character to approach the performance of certain skills in a different way than most people.
Benefit: A character with this feat can substitute one physical key ability or one mental key ability for another for purposes of skill checks. For example, an Expert Acrobat could use his Dex score instead of Str for skills normally governed by Strength, such as Climb or Swim. Or, an Expert Courtesan might use Charisma instead of Wisdom for skills normally governed by the latter ability.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times; each time affects a different combination of skills.Yuck. I'd definitely deny that.
Take a character with an Intelligence of 18 and a Wisdom of 10 and use this feat to apply his Intelligence modifier to Wisdom-based skills.
That gives him a +4 to four different skills (not counting professions) for one feat.
Existing feats only give you a +2 bonus to two skills. So the character above is getting the equivalent of 4 feats.
In the case given by the OP, the PC would be trading Wisdom (-2) for Intelligence (+5). That's a gain of +7 to each of four skills, which would be like having 7 feats.
It might make some sense for characters with the Expert class (as the book likely intends) since NPCs usually have lower ability scores than PCs. But I'd say it's way too much for a PC.
I do feel the need to point out that those +2 2 skill feats are generally regarded as really, really, really terrible feats and a gigantic waste of resources, so it's not really a fair comparison :p
Except that those +2 to two turn into +4 to two at tenth level. Alertness, and skill focus(perception) are both really nice to have (I say as the player of a half elf rogue 3/diviner 1 -- Perception check + 16 at 4th level by 20th I'm looking at at least a +40).
Now that's not to say all those feats are created equal, however giving much more of a bonus from them would end up just making things like the diplomancer that much worse.
I do feel the need to point out that those +2 2 skill feats are generally regarded as really, really, really terrible feats and a gigantic waste of resources, so it's not really a fair comparison :p
Alternate Key Ability
This feat allows a character to approach the performance of certain skills in a different way than most people.
Benefit: A character with this feat can substitute one physical key ability or one mental key ability for another for purposes of skill checks. For example, an Expert Acrobat could use his Dex score instead of Str for skills normally governed by Strength, such as Climb or Swim. Or, an Expert Courtesan might use Charisma instead of Wisdom for skills normally governed by the latter ability.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times; each time affects a different combination of skills.Yuck. I'd definitely deny that.
Take a character with an Intelligence of 18 and a Wisdom of 10 and use this feat to apply his Intelligence modifier to Wisdom-based skills.
That gives him a +4 to four different skills (not counting professions) for one feat.
Existing feats only give you a +2 bonus to two skills. So the character above is getting the equivalent of 4 feats.
In the case given by the OP, the PC would be trading Wisdom (-2) for Intelligence (+5). That's a gain of +7 to each of four skills, which would be like having 7 feats.
It might make some sense for characters with the Expert class (as the book likely intends) since NPCs usually have lower ability scores than PCs. But I'd say it's way too much for a PC.
not necessarily just a +4, Meet tim the wizard, who has 18int, but 7 wisdom...
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What you need to understand about "third party" D&D 3.5 products is, 99.999% of the time, they are complete and utter crap. Always have been.
Pretty much every DM banned all of them outright, and only made very rare and very specific exceptions.
You need to regard "3.5" has "Wizards of the Coast published material", and define "3rd party 3.5" as a separate (and banned) category.
That's nonsense. Sure, there is d20/OGL crap, but there's great stuff, too. Paizo did a lot of great d20/OGl stuff.
And it's not as if wizards never made crap. They did produce more than their fair share of uninteresting, ludicrous, or just hopelessly overpowered stuff.
The best course of action is decide on a case-by-case basis. You can do things like "once I've seen 3 crappy products of company X, I won't bother with that company again" (unless they were between lots of good stuff).
...I just got your name.
I'm a cunning trickster. Right up there with E.Nigma And Harley Quinn! :)
There were a lot of feats like this in official 3.5 BUT they were restricted in terms of what they effected:
Kung Fu Genius - allowed a monk to use Intelligence instead of Wisdom for their monk abilities only.
Force of Personality - effectively allowed Charisma instead of Wisdom for Will save modifiers only.
Zen Archery - Wisdom bonus replaces Dexterity for missile fire only.
As long as it doesn't upset the verisimilitude of the class thematically and effects only one aspect of the character, it's no big deal. if it whole-sale replaces the stat in every conceivable way AND retains all its original functions as well, then that's a big hit with the ban-hammer there and then.
I'm feeling spunky today
They have creams for that now!
Sure, they're kind of a stretch..
You don't say! ;-P
Let me in on the fun:
Constitution for Stealth: Your character has become so good at controlling his breathing that he becomes much harder to detect, especially while sprinting from shadow to shadow.
"Did you hear that?"
"The weird sound like some huge guy stampeding past us, accompanied by a rattling like a clumsy guy in full plate?""Yeah. Intrduers?"
"Nah! It wasn't accompanied by panting, so it was probably something else.!
Constitution for Disable Device: Your character's pain tolerance and general health are so high that he just springs the traps and shrugs off what comes at him.
Great for him. Sucks for the frail wizard who was right behind him and also fell into the bottomless pit.
Plus, we'd have to rename Disable Device. Into Suck. Because you need a skill to spring traps now? Usually, that can be accomplished by unskilled fools just fine.
Strength for Disable Device: SNAP! I'm in.
"'SNAP!' Indeed, Einstein! We were trying to get out. And now you broke off the keypad."
Charisma for Knowledges: Your character's lifetime of interacting with people of expertise in various areas has helped him glean a lot of useful information.
...and you forgot it all, because you're as smart as 100 yards of game trail.
Kung Fu Genius - allowed a monk to use Intelligence instead of Wisdom for their monk abilities only.
Force of Personality - effectively allowed Charisma instead of Wisdom for Will save modifiers only.
Zen Archery - Wisdom bonus replaces Dexterity for missile fire only.
Never particularly liked those.
Oh, wait, I have some examples for different ability scores, too!
Fly - Charisma: You're like a graceful eagle, looking so good flying around that the air helps you in your funny manoeuvres.
Handle Animal - Strength: Just yank the chain!
Knowledge - Dexterity: You have fast fingers, enabling you to enter stuff into google real fast!
Perception - Charisma: You're so popular, people WANT to show and tell you things.
Linguistics - Constitution: Your big set of lungs allows you to speak loudly to foreigners, because speaking your own language loudly and slowly is a scientifically proved way to bridge the language barrier.
Use Magic Device - Strength: Just press the "shoot" button really, really hard. Bang the staff against the wall a couple of times, or give it a good kick. That usually works.
Sense Motive - Dexterity: Dodge the lies!
Linguistics - Constitution: Your big set of lungs allows you to speak loudly to foreigners, because speaking your own language loudly and slowly is a scientifically proved way to bridge the language barrier.
Prereq must be English!
Bwhahahaha!