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While we're on the topic of a new kingdom book, I think it would be a good idea to put all three new rule sets into one book: exploration, kingdom building, and mass combat. The kingdom building and mass combat sections should be enough to fill up a hardcover I'd imagine.
Though we won't know for sure until #35 comes out. Bah, not yet...
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A book all about kingdoms—building them and running them and fighting them—would indeed be neat.
This perhaps, may be a bit of an understatement. I haven't enjoyed campaign building like this since the old CM modules when I was a kid. I'd buy a book that codified and expanded on these rules in a heartbeat.
EDIT: drunken posting yields interesting slips. I was a kid not a king
A book all about kingdoms—building them and running them and fighting them—would indeed be neat.
Yes, please! I will buy it.
Are there rules for what happens when an economy check for income roll is a natural 1 or 20? i could see auto success or auto failure, but should anything beyond that occur? (BP loss on a 1, double gain on a 20?)
I'm curious how others are handling this (and if I missed something along the way)
James said that on Economy, Stability, and Loyalty checks you could get a Nat failure or Nat Success.
I have had Nat failures happen during the Economy check to generate income. I just treated it as a standard failure. That alone was pretty surprising to the group with their +70 to Economy so they are used to getting at least 14 BP even if they roll a 2.
Creative Director
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A book all about kingdoms—building them and running them and fighting them—would indeed be neat.If not a book, then at least a PDF project for those of us that are enjoying these rules and the wheel turning full circle. Wargame to RPG to Wargame once more.
A PDF isn't really an option—if we take these rules and run with them to expand them, we'll do it right and make a book out of them.
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Creative Director
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Are there rules for what happens when an economy check for income roll is a natural 1 or 20? i could see auto success or auto failure, but should anything beyond that occur? (BP loss on a 1, double gain on a 20?)
I'm curious how others are handling this (and if I missed something along the way)
Auto failure on a natural 1 and auto success on a natural 20 is a good idea.
Auto failure on a natural 1 and auto success on a natural 20 is a good idea.
I assume that's why it's in the adventure. :)
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If there are any Maptool users running Kingmaker(and there would not be an issue posting them), I have been working on some macros to handle the phases of kingdom building. So far, I've automated consumption and the three kingdom checks, including generating/reducing BP and Unrest. If Paizo doesn't object to sharing macros that use their kingdom rules and there are Maptool users interested, I will post them in a separate thread.
One of the biggest hurdles to using the new rules in an online game is keeping track of all the numbers in a way that everyone can see without slowing the game to a crawl. Macros are a huge help with restoring real world speed to online kingdom building.
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Does anyone have any thoughts on how to modify the costs/benefits of adding a subterranean settlement? In our game, the Sootscale tribe has expanded their cave and grown their population, so I wanted to treat it as a town when the party claims the hex...
But I'm not sure it should be as easy for the party to plop down the same kinds of buildings without a cost increase for the tunneling. Double seems too much, but I'm not sure what's fair.
I would say that doubling cost for subterranean doesn’t seem outrageous. Tunneling is normally quite a bit more intensive than building upwards. (Although it might be easier with pre-existing caves).
Does anyone have any thoughts on how to modify the costs/benefits of adding a subterranean settlement? In our game, the Sootscale tribe has expanded their cave and grown their population, so I wanted to treat it as a town when the party claims the hex...
But I'm not sure it should be as easy for the party to plop down the same kinds of buildings without a cost increase for the tunneling. Double seems too much, but I'm not sure what's fair.
Definitely free city walls on all sides, though, for the mechanical benefit. That's all I got off the top of my head.
Just because it's so off the system, I'd be tempted to play it like a bonus hex, but one where the bonus can build if nurtured.
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If there are any Maptool users running Kingmaker(and there would not be an issue posting them), I have been working on some macros to handle the phases of kingdom building. So far, I've automated consumption and the three kingdom checks, including generating/reducing BP and Unrest. If Paizo doesn't object to sharing macros that use their kingdom rules and there are Maptool users interested, I will post them in a separate thread.
One of the biggest hurdles to using the new rules in an online game is keeping track of all the numbers in a way that everyone can see without slowing the game to a crawl. Macros are a huge help with restoring real world speed to online kingdom building.
Gardener as a Maptools user, I would be very interested in these macros. Email is alexkilcoyne at hotmail.com
As for your Sootscales problem, double does sound too much. If the Sootscales are able to expand their caves without problem though, they should be able to make buildings down there that work at the same costs- your just motivating the little buggers mostly aren't you :)
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Thought:
Currently, Rulers can apply their bonuses to one score (Econ, Stability, Loyalty) at Barony level, two scores at Duchy and all three at Kingdom.
Suggestion: Reverse that. The logic is that an individual can influence many parts of a small organization, but he's much more limited as the bureaucracy grows. This will also serve to make the ruler depend more on his staff as the realm gets bigger and require him to develop them instead of micromanaging the kingdom (abstracted, of course).
Is there a game balance reason why this is bad that's already been hashed out in playtesting or that is obvious and I'm missing?
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Thought:
Currently, Rulers can apply their bonuses to one score (Econ, Stability, Loyalty) at Barony level, two scores at Duchy and all three at Kingdom.
Suggestion: Reverse that. The logic is that an individual can influence many parts of a small organization, but he's much more limited as the bureaucracy grows. This will also serve to make the ruler depend more on his staff as the realm gets bigger and require him to develop them instead of micromanaging the kingdom (abstracted, of course).
Is there a game balance reason why this is bad that's already been hashed out in playtesting or that is obvious and I'm missing?
I think what they were going for was influence a ruler has at the various levels of growth. A fly-by-night community leader will have less influence than king of a vast empire, that sort of thing. Since the Ruler only uses his or her charisma bonus, rather than wisdom or any other stat, the bonus seems deeply tied to public speaking, morale building, etc.
It's probably less about balance than about rewarding the group for their kingdom's longevity. The ruler bonus is potentially very small, as any type of character can fill it, compared to Magister or General, and in some cases might even be a penalty. If a group is dead set on putting someone with a charisma penalty on the big chair, I would probably reverse things the way you're suggesting.
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Gardener as a Maptools user, I would be very interested in these macros. Email is alexkilcoyne at hotmail.comAs for your Sootscales problem, double does sound too much. If the Sootscales are able to expand their caves without problem though, they should be able to make buildings down there that work at the same costs- your just motivating the little buggers mostly aren't you :)
Email sent.
What I'm going to do is allow the caverns to be annexed like any town and use the Gamemastery Guide to randomly roll 1d4 buildings, applying bonuses for the ones that are in the building list and rerolling or tweaking anything that seems out of place underground(like a Watchtower). If necessary, I'll create a new table out of the existing building list and reserve 90-100 for the most valuable buildings. I want to reward the players for good RP with the Sootscales, but I don't want to give them free castles without the fickle finger of fate decreeing the choice to be just.
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Gardener as a Maptools user, I would be very interested in these macros. Email is alexkilcoyne at hotmail.comAs for your Sootscales problem, double does sound too much. If the Sootscales are able to expand their caves without problem though, they should be able to make buildings down there that work at the same costs- your just motivating the little buggers mostly aren't you :)
Email sent.
What I'm going to do is allow the caverns to be annexed like any town and use the Gamemastery Guide to randomly roll 1d4 buildings, applying bonuses for the ones that are in the building list and rerolling or tweaking anything that seems out of place underground(like a Watchtower). If necessary, I'll create a new table out of the existing building list and reserve 90-100 for the most valuable buildings. I want to reward the players for good RP with the Sootscales, but I don't want to give them free castles without the fickle finger of fate decreeing the choice to be just.
I ended up treating the sootscales like a native american tribal nation in the US. They are under the baron's authority, but as a semi-autonomous allied state. The hex is farmed and inhabited as normal, but the kobalds are there as well. If the players ever roll the new vassals event, I'll have the sootscales ask for full citizenship & probably use something similar to your town idea here to represent full control of their caves.
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Clearly this is very easy to abuse if I'm interpreting correctly, but can a kingdom run at a deficit? As in, purchasing buildings and improvements while at negative BP, the way consumption is paid? Or is consumption the exception and all building and expansion halts until BP returns to the positives?
I can see arguments going either way(many countries have a trade deficit, after all), but as I said, it would be very easy for PCs to spend their way to killer checks and just ride out the deficit until it rights itself.
Also, if this was already discussed upthread, I apologize. I tried searching for the answer but the word deficit only brings up threads from the political discussions(I must have closed those threads a long time ago because I didn't even know there was a political discussion forum).
Warforged I'd love to take a look at those macros. Email: powerfamiliar at gmail.
As for the soothscales, I'm kind of curious too. One of my players is a draconic bloodline sorcerer aiming towards Dragon Disciple and he's very interested in allying with the tribe.
Clearly this is very easy to abuse if I'm interpreting correctly, but can a kingdom run at a deficit? As in, purchasing buildings and improvements while at negative BP, the way consumption is paid? Or is consumption the exception and all building and expansion halts until BP returns to the positives?
I can see arguments going either way(many countries have a trade deficit, after all), but as I said, it would be very easy for PCs to spend their way to killer checks and just ride out the deficit until it rights itself.
Also, if this was already discussed upthread, I apologize. I tried searching for the answer but the word deficit only brings up threads from the political discussions(I must have closed those threads a long time ago because I didn't even know there was a political discussion forum).
BP represents things like lumber, nails, and free time to do the work. Kinda hard to go run a deficit with that stuff. If you don't have the wood, you can't build. It's not liquid enough to be debt.
Questions!
1. Considering the benefits of the lowly Dump, is there ever a game mechanics reason to build a Brewery, Granary, or Mansion? (It might help if certain structures couldn't be built next to houses or increased unrest, or if the Mansion counted as a house for adjacency rules.)
2. Isn't the Luxury Store stinking overpriced, even after other structures reduce the price? Or is the increase of the City Base Value that important?
3. When are we gonna see the kingdom building book!? I freakin love these rules! :)
Edit: Bonus Question: Since Tenements act 'as houses' does the first House OR Tenement built each turn not count towards you limits on building?
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BP represents things like lumber, nails, and free time to do the work. Kinda hard to go run a deficit with that stuff. If you don't have the wood, you can't build. It's not liquid enough to be debt.Clearly this is very easy to abuse if I'm interpreting correctly, but can a kingdom run at a deficit? As in, purchasing buildings and improvements while at negative BP, the way consumption is paid? Or is consumption the exception and all building and expansion halts until BP returns to the positives?
I can see arguments going either way(many countries have a trade deficit, after all), but as I said, it would be very easy for PCs to spend their way to killer checks and just ride out the deficit until it rights itself.
Also, if this was already discussed upthread, I apologize. I tried searching for the answer but the word deficit only brings up threads from the political discussions(I must have closed those threads a long time ago because I didn't even know there was a political discussion forum).
If you're correct, then consumption shouldn't turn into BP debt. It should bottom out at 0. Every month, the debt increases but nothing can be done to pull the kingdom out of its tailspin.
If you're correct, then consumption shouldn't turn into BP debt. It should bottom out at 0. Every month, the debt increases but nothing can be done to pull the kingdom out of its tailspin.BP represents things like lumber, nails, and free time to do the work. Kinda hard to go run a deficit with that stuff. If you don't have the wood, you can't build. It's not liquid enough to be debt.Clearly this is very easy to abuse if I'm interpreting correctly, but can a kingdom run at a deficit? As in, purchasing buildings and improvements while at negative BP, the way consumption is paid? Or is consumption the exception and all building and expansion halts until BP returns to the positives?
I can see arguments going either way(many countries have a trade deficit, after all), but as I said, it would be very easy for PCs to spend their way to killer checks and just ride out the deficit until it rights itself.
Also, if this was already discussed upthread, I apologize. I tried searching for the answer but the word deficit only brings up threads from the political discussions(I must have closed those threads a long time ago because I didn't even know there was a political discussion forum).
I'm sure someone has responded, but from the rules: "If a kingdom is unable to pay its Consumption, its Unrest increases by 2."
There is nothing in the rules I can find that allows you to 'float' a cost on a building. It's a cost, X must be spent for Y to be built.
Of course you could houserule 'loans' for a kingdom, but these would dramatically affect all it's scores, I would imagine. If a kingdom owes the businesses within it, or worse another nation, a considerable (1 BP or more) amount of money/favors the citizenry are less sure of the kingdom and it is more prone to collapse due to the tenuous nature of its system of debts.
Questions!
1. Considering the benefits of the lowly Dump, is there ever a game mechanics reason to build a Brewery, Granary, or Mansion? (It might help if certain structures couldn't be built next to houses or increased unrest, or if the Mansion counted as a house for adjacency rules.)
2. Isn't the Luxury Store stinking overpriced, even after other structures reduce the price? Or is the increase of the City Base Value that important?
3. When are we gonna see the kingdom building book!? I freakin love these rules! :)Edit: Bonus Question: Since Tenements act 'as houses' does the first House OR Tenement built each turn not count towards you limits on building?
To your bonus question, I believe it has been answered in the affirmatory that Tenements count as houses for the free house.
As to number 3, at least 2 years from what I have seen them say. But because of the enthusiasm for the rules, they have expressed interest in expanding them and fleshing them out more.
The other 2 I can't answer since I haven't looked much at the kingdom building rules yet. I don't want to get my hopes up and then have the players not reach it for annother 2-3 months as we rotate through 3 games on 3 week intervals and it looks like they wont get to the stag lord this cycle.
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Clearly this is very easy to abuse if I'm interpreting correctly, but can a kingdom run at a deficit? As in, purchasing buildings and improvements while at negative BP, the way consumption is paid? Or is consumption the exception and all building and expansion halts until BP returns to the positives?
I can see arguments going either way(many countries have a trade deficit, after all), but as I said, it would be very easy for PCs to spend their way to killer checks and just ride out the deficit until it rights itself.
Also, if this was already discussed upthread, I apologize. I tried searching for the answer but the word deficit only brings up threads from the political discussions(I must have closed those threads a long time ago because I didn't even know there was a political discussion forum).
I think you may need to conceptualize this differently. BP represents economic activity - its an abstraction of building materials, taxes, and labor generated by your people. When you get your monthly allotment, it represents a fraction of all activities that your monarch can 'direct' toward expansion or work they want. BP can be banked, but it can never be negative.
Consumption is an abstraction of upkeep for the buildings and areas you already have. Think of consumption as road maintenance, building repairs, and budgets for the civil services needed by communities. Consumption is a cost that must be paid. If you don't, things don't work right in your society, and thus you get unrest.
If your players are careful with their early expansion, adding enough farmland to keep consumption at or close to 0, and building inexpensive structures that boost the economy stat (smith, mill, etc...) you should be fine. Its pretty easy to avoid the economic death spiral if you keep consumption under control.
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Clearly this is very easy to abuse if I'm interpreting correctly, but can a kingdom run at a deficit? As in, purchasing buildings and improvements while at negative BP, the way consumption is paid? Or is consumption the exception and all building and expansion halts until BP returns to the positives?
I can see arguments going either way(many countries have a trade deficit, after all), but as I said, it would be very easy for PCs to spend their way to killer checks and just ride out the deficit until it rights itself.
Also, if this was already discussed upthread, I apologize. I tried searching for the answer but the word deficit only brings up threads from the political discussions(I must have closed those threads a long time ago because I didn't even know there was a political discussion forum).
I think you may need to conceptualize this differently. BP represents economic activity - its an abstraction of building materials, taxes, and labor generated by your people. When you get your monthly allotment, it represents a fraction of all activities that your monarch can 'direct' toward expansion or work they want. BP can be banked, but it can never be negative.
Consumption is an abstraction of upkeep for the buildings and areas you already have. Think of consumption as road maintenance, building repairs, and budgets for the civil services needed by communities. Consumption is a cost that must be paid. If you don't, things don't work right in your society, and thus you get unrest.
If your players are careful with their early expansion, adding enough farmland to keep consumption at or close to 0, and building inexpensive structures that boost the economy stat (smith, mill, etc...) you should be fine. Its pretty easy to avoid the economic death spiral if you keep consumption under control.
My players aren't why I was asking, at least not primarily. I'm trying to use the rules to establish other kingdoms and it seems that without a pile of BP to start the kingdom, it's nearly impossible to succeed without running deficits. The 50 BP the players are given comes from Brevoy, which my players very nearly turned down just to keep Brevoy from making demands on them later on. It's possible that some players will turn it down.
I don't mind a little abstraction, but the problem is that abstraction also leads to a lack of definition. If Build Points are labor and supplies, does having slave labor result in infinite build points? Does a necromancer with an army of undead build whatever he likes and never have to pay for anything? The rules are simple and I'm not looking to make them more complex than they need to be, but I would like them to hold up if me or my players decide to color outside the lines. Making the RP decision to turn down money from the swordlords shouldn't be penalized with the inevitable collapse of their new kingdom, nor should just handing out 50 BP by fiat be a workable solution.
There is a very cool new ruleset here and if Paizo expands on it, I'd be the first person in line for that book. I just need a few bridges to get me from the Kingdom Building article to the day that new rule book exists.
If the consensus is that BP can be banked, but not owed, I'm not going to debate it. But I would like some realistic solutions to the problem that prompted me to ask the question.
How does a new kingdom survive without being gifted with BP from somewhere else? By the rules, it's very expensive to buy BP. That makes sense, certainly, but as it's not supposed to be gold in the first place, there must be other ways to create BP within the framework of the existing rules. What is the value of a tribe of loyal kobolds? Enslaved humanoids? If he hadn't been a self-hating drunk, what would the Stag Lord's demesne look like? A CE port town that funds itself in raids against nearby countries?
Reverse-engineering a city like Korvosa to create its Kingdom stats is easy...trying to engineer a city that's not the PC's city without bending or breaking the rules is tricky.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I would suggest that you would have to start the ball rolling in one of a couple of ways:
1. A site: PCs find a ruined or unoccupied building or fort. Back in 1st Ed it was not uncommon to "clear out" a dungeon and then move in.
This provides you BP in terms of real estate and essentially a half-price downpayment on your first building or village - the village optional floating around the boards are probably a good starting place if you want to REALLY start from scratch.
2. Material resources: PCs gain ownership of some large amount of raw materials. They clear out a mine that can be worked. They win the title to a forest that can be logged. They purchase land that can be farmed. That first purchase might need to be with gold, or it could be in return for a favor done to a local lord.
They start with the land; once they have it, they step into the BP economy, whether they buy in with their first stake in gold.
3. Leadership: Whether taking the feat or otherwise ascending to a position where you get a certain critical mass of minions working for you (again, it could be begun with simply buying up a force of workers with cash, or using Prestige Award if you have the Faction Guide), once you get enough people to start an economy moving, you can start moving into the BP world. As long as you are building up to it, you pay them cash, but once you have established your first village or city or farm hex or whatever, they stop being hirelings and start being citizens of PC-Topia.
I guess it all boils down to:
1. PCs can buy their first stake with gold
2. PCs can receive their first stake as a gift or payment for services rendered from someone who already has it
3. PCs can find their first stake as a natural consequence of adventuring
4. PCs can become the bosses of their first stake by the acclamation of the people already there for their heroism and who decide they'd like the PCs to be the mayor/baron/king/el presidente for life.
The key point is getting that stake and deciding to develop it. You have to choose to do it. It's a threshold issue. You can go through your adventuring career and decide never to go that route, having sacks of gold and piles of magic items and never really interact with that kind of economy at all if you never pay the "entry fee" (whether it be cash, service, the right kind of heroic deeds, or just dumb luck).
Once they get a stake, getting a place, some raw goods, and some people willing to follow, they can start running an economy and keeping it together, building it as they go.
You can also think about it as a DM:
Stuff that people find as treasure can be sold as bulk goods for cash, or can be treasure in the form of BP, like the "loot" in the troll lair in RRR. It's up to the players what they want to do with it. They can find people to buy the stuff and just cash it out, or they can bank it up and spend it on buildings and roads and kingdom stuff.
Hopefully that made sense - I'm very hungry. Off to dinner! :)
I think to answer your question, you must remember that BP don't need to represent money or even supplies. It could be as simple as having a large enough number of settlers who have the time and ability to start building things. Just the labour potential in a group of people could account for some arbitrary number of BP.
It could be that for the first months, the settlers rely on basically camping and hunting for food while they clear space for the first houses to be built. As long as timber is available, with only minimal supplies, a group of settlers could start a small village.
I think the trick (if you want to apply this to a game) is determining when this critical mass of labour is available and assign it some arbitrary value in BP (10-15?) from which to start. If you have every ruler slot filled you can have a stable kingdom of only 3 hexes where two of them are farms. Consumption is 0 and you just have to wait around long enough to make the econ checks before expanding.
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A starter guide for translating things other than cash into BP
Jason, thank you very much for that. While you didn't provide a lot of crunch, you did give some very general guidelines that allow for kingdoms/towns/villages of any size without a big gift from another country. I suppose if I look at the BP rewards that players can find elsewhere, I could come up with a baseline to exchange some abstracts for solid BP numbers.
If used as a food source, could the insects farmed by mites qualify as a free farm? I mean, farms aren't automatically amber waves of grain. If someone drops a road in that hex with the mite lair, it's a cave filled with delicious renewable foodstuffs and/or mounts for small creatures.
A starter guide for translating things other than cash into BPJason, thank you very much for that. While you didn't provide a lot of crunch, you did give some very general guidelines that allow for kingdoms/towns/villages of any size without a big gift from another country. I suppose if I look at the BP rewards that players can find elsewhere, I could come up with a baseline to exchange some abstracts for solid BP numbers.
If used as a food source, could the insects farmed by mites qualify as a free farm? I mean, farms aren't automatically amber waves of grain. If someone drops a road in that hex with the mite lair, it's a cave filled with delicious renewable foodstuffs and/or mounts for small creatures.
Its a matter of scale.
The farm hexes are 12 miles by 12 miles. The mites cave is measured in feet, and would not even take up 1 full square on the city map. For annother society, that increases that insect growing to huge proportions, you could use them as farms. But that would be a huge expansion of the existing mite colony.
1 square in the city map is 1/6th of a mile squared. 1 city block is usually 1/10th by 1/20th of a mile, at least in my area. 4 city blocks, filling up about 50 houses, with half the space as green space, are represented by 1 housing tile. That mite cave is about the size of 1-2 houses.
This is why I am reducing 1 city square to a half mile X half mile, so that 1 house represnts about 2 blocks, and the larger buildings are about the size of my highschool.
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How does a new kingdom survive without being gifted with BP from somewhere else? By the rules, it's very expensive to buy BP. That makes sense, certainly, but as it's not supposed to be gold in the first place, there must be other ways to create BP within the framework of the existing rules. What is the value of a tribe of loyal kobolds? Enslaved humanoids? If he hadn't been a self-hating drunk, what would the Stag Lord's demesne look like? A CE port town that funds itself in raids against nearby countries?
Reverse-engineering a city like Korvosa to create its Kingdom stats is easy...trying to engineer a city that's not the PC's city without bending or breaking the rules is tricky.
Ok, lets look at this. Starting with zero BPs, you will likely need most (if not all) government positions filled. You don't even need people with large bonuses, you just need to avoid the minuses. Assuming an average of +2 on the stat bonuses, your final Economy, Loyalty and stability should be about 8 or so each (10 rulers *2 = 20 pts, plus 4 from country alignment). You also need some cash (Like Jason said) about 16000gp would get you 4 BP. As an alternative, goods (like bandit loot, or goods from a caravan)YOu'll need about this much in resources to get started. You'll need 1BP (4000gp) to claim a hex as a bare minimum.
Now, in the first turn you skip upkeep as you have no hexes. Now you need to claim a hex for 1 BP(although i'd make the first hex free), build roads (1 BP in plains) and a farm (2 BP in plains).
When month 2 rolls around, you have 0 consumption. your command dc is a 21. After a few months of doing nothing but making their economy (and hopefully stability checks without unrest), you should have 8-12 BP. claim a hex, prepare the site & drop a city. Build cheap economy pumping buildings like a smith or mill, and your NPCs can bootsrap themselves into a realm. It's possible without a big BP gift like the pcs get, its just slower.
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Ok, lets look at this. Starting with zero BPs, you will likely need most (if not all) government positions filled. You don't even need people with large bonuses, you just need to avoid the minuses. Assuming an average of +2 on the stat bonuses, your final Economy, Loyalty and stability should be about 8 or so each (10 rulers *2 = 20 pts, plus 4 from country alignment). You also need some cash (Like Jason said) about 16000gp would get you 4 BP. As an alternative, goods (like bandit loot, or goods from a caravan)YOu'll need about this much in resources to get started. You'll need 1BP (4000gp) to claim a hex as a bare minimum.
Now, in the first turn you skip upkeep as you have no hexes. Now you need to claim a hex for 1 BP(although i'd make the first hex free), build roads (1 BP in plains) and a farm (2 BP in plains).
When month 2 rolls around, you have 0 consumption. your command dc is a 21. After a few months of doing nothing but making their economy (and hopefully stability checks without unrest), you should have 8-12 BP. claim a hex, prepare the site & drop a city. Build cheap economy pumping buildings like a smith or mill, and your NPCs can bootsrap themselves into a realm. It's possible without a big BP gift like the pcs get, its just slower.
You're forgetting random events. I lost a test kingdom at four months due to a bandit activity roll, followed by a plague. Meanwhile, Unrest was past 11 and there was only one hex left to lose.
You're forgetting random events. I lost a test kingdom at four months due to a bandit activity roll, followed by a plague. Meanwhile, Unrest was past 11 and there was only one hex left to lose.
I don't have the chart in front of me, but I'm pretty sure you have about equal likely hood of that happening as having a prosperous month and celebrity visit, which would give you good boosts. Not every kingdom starting from nothing leads to greatness. Many die off in obscurity, through no fault of their own.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I don't have the chart in front of me, but I'm pretty sure you have about equal likely hood of that happening as having a prosperous month and celebrity visit, which would give you good boosts. Not every kingdom starting from nothing leads to greatness. Many die off in obscurity, through no fault of their own.
You're forgetting random events. I lost a test kingdom at four months due to a bandit activity roll, followed by a plague. Meanwhile, Unrest was past 11 and there was only one hex left to lose.
It's true. Painfully realistic, actually. Think of the Roanoke Colony, or the Whitman Massacre for just a couple of historical examples of colonization-type events that ended poorly.
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It's true. Painfully realistic, actually. Think of the Roanoke Colony, or the Whitman Massacre for just a couple of historical examples of colonization-type events that ended poorly.I don't have the chart in front of me, but I'm pretty sure you have about equal likely hood of that happening as having a prosperous month and celebrity visit, which would give you good boosts. Not every kingdom starting from nothing leads to greatness. Many die off in obscurity, through no fault of their own.
You're forgetting random events. I lost a test kingdom at four months due to a bandit activity roll, followed by a plague. Meanwhile, Unrest was past 11 and there was only one hex left to lose.
What's worse is THEY probably had the 50 BP. =P
1. Considering the benefits of the lowly Dump, is there ever a game mechanics reason to build a Brewery, Granary, or Mansion? (It might help if certain structures couldn't be built next to houses or increased unrest, or if the Mansion counted as a house for adjacency rules.)
2. Isn't the Luxury Store stinking overpriced, even after other structures reduce the price? Or is the increase of the City Base Value that important?
3. When are we gonna see the kingdom building book!? I freakin love these rules!
Bonus Question: Since Tenements act 'as houses' does the first House OR Tenement built each turn not count towards you limits on building?
Bumped while awaiting official answers. ;)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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1. Considering the benefits of the lowly Dump, is there ever a game mechanics reason to build a Brewery, Granary, or Mansion? (It might help if certain structures couldn't be built next to houses or increased unrest, or if the Mansion counted as a house for adjacency rules.)
2. Isn't the Luxury Store stinking overpriced, even after other structures reduce the price? Or is the increase of the City Base Value that important?
3. When are we gonna see the kingdom building book!? I freakin love these rules!Bonus Question: Since Tenements act 'as houses' does the first House OR Tenement built each turn not count towards you limits on building?
Bumped while awaiting official answers. ;)
I think at some point it was stated that the dump was a typo, or maybe it was the graveyard.
In any case, even if it's not, in my KM game I simply recosted the Graveyard, Dump, and Granary all to 6 BP and called it good, since they all give the same bonus. Not official, but there it is.
As for the luxury store, it is kinda overpriced, but the increase in city base value is pretty important if you get sick of always riding off to Restov every time you wanna buy or sell magic items outside of your kingdom rolls.
I also, for that matter, either taking up some errata from the boards or just deciding to make changes, said:
Barracks at 12 BP and watchtower at 6 BP, even though they are identical except that the watchtower also grants a stability bonus? The costs should be:
Barracks (6 BP): +2 Defense Modifier; Unrest –1.
Watchtower (12 BP): +1 Stability; +2 Defense Modifier; Unrest –1.
Exotic Craftsman (10 BP): Should be: 1 minor item, +1 Economy, +1 Stability. (In the rules it is +1 Loyalty instead of +1 Economy)
1. Considering the benefits of the lowly Dump, is there ever a game mechanics reason to build a Brewery, Granary, or Mansion? (It might help if certain structures couldn't be built next to houses or increased unrest, or if the Mansion counted as a house for adjacency rules.)
2. Isn't the Luxury Store stinking overpriced, even after other structures reduce the price? Or is the increase of the City Base Value that important?
3. When are we gonna see the kingdom building book!? I freakin love these rules!Bonus Question: Since Tenements act 'as houses' does the first House OR Tenement built each turn not count towards you limits on building?
Bumped while awaiting official answers. ;)
I think at some point it was stated that the dump was a typo, or maybe it was the graveyard.
In any case, even if it's not, in my KM game I simply recosted the Graveyard, Dump, and Granary all to 6 BP and called it good, since they all give the same bonus. Not official, but there it is.
As for the luxury store, it is kinda overpriced, but the increase in city base value is pretty important if you get sick of always riding off to Restov every time you wanna buy or sell magic items outside of your kingdom rolls.
I also, for that matter, either taking up some errata from the boards or just deciding to make changes, said:
Barracks at 12 BP and watchtower at 6 BP, even though they are identical except that the watchtower also grants a stability bonus? The costs should be:
Barracks (6 BP): +2 Defense Modifier; Unrest –1.
Watchtower (12 BP): +1 Stability; +2 Defense Modifier; Unrest –1.Exotic Craftsman (10 BP): Should be: 1 minor item, +1 Economy, +1 Stability. (In the rules it is +1 Loyalty instead of +1 Economy)
Thanks for chiming in... I'm also thinking of some way of making the dump more feasible. At the moment I'm thinking of making it a +1 Stability, the Graveyard a +1 Loyalty, and then having their be a 'junk shop/pawn shop/second hand shop' that requires it be next to a Dump for +1 Econ and making all three of them cost 4 each. Dump might also increase unrest, I'm not sure, but I think NIMBY deserve some rep in the rules. ;)
All those erattas are already joyfully and fully incorporated into my PDF as notes, but a good idea to bring em up again for the newbies in the thread! :)
As for the soothscales, I'm kind of curious too. One of my players is a draconic bloodline sorcerer aiming towards Dragon Disciple and he's very interested in allying with the tribe.
Funny my parties sorcerer is the same and has the Sootscales as his loyal fan club...so much so that Chief Sootscale is now Royal Assassin
Funny my parties sorcerer is the same and has the Sootscales as his loyal fan club...so much so that Chief Sootscale is now Royal Assassin
As for the soothscales, I'm kind of curious too. One of my players is a draconic bloodline sorcerer aiming towards Dragon Disciple and he's very interested in allying with the tribe.
That, good sir, is full of win.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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That, good sir, is full of win.Funny my parties sorcerer is the same and has the Sootscales as his loyal fan club...so much so that Chief Sootscale is now Royal Assassin
As for the soothscales, I'm kind of curious too. One of my players is a draconic bloodline sorcerer aiming towards Dragon Disciple and he's very interested in allying with the tribe.
That is pretty awesome. They never see him coming.
Literally.
Cuz he's so short... :)
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That, good sir, is full of win.Funny my parties sorcerer is the same and has the Sootscales as his loyal fan club...so much so that Chief Sootscale is now Royal Assassin
As for the soothscales, I'm kind of curious too. One of my players is a draconic bloodline sorcerer aiming towards Dragon Disciple and he's very interested in allying with the tribe.That is pretty awesome. They never see him coming.
Literally.
Cuz he's so short... :)
Heh... Hes ended up as Spymaster in my game. Basically he made a deal with the Kingdom to leave their Silver Mine alone (they could still claim the hex, just not use the resource), and got them to throw in a low level magical item or two, and in return Sootscales and his most trusted kobolds work as a spy network across the Kingdom.