Festivals: If you choose to have 24 per year [costing 8BP (or 4 with an Arena)] do you pay the 8BP once and then gain +4 Loyalty for the next 12 months of checks?
I assume that if you start low and then increase the number after a few months, you just pay the difference in BP?
Creative Director
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Festivals: If you choose to have 24 per year [costing 8BP (or 4 with an Arena)] do you pay the 8BP once and then gain +4 Loyalty for the next 12 months of checks?
I assume that if you start low and then increase the number after a few months, you just pay the difference in BP?
The bonus granted by festivals is a result as much from the actual festivals as it is the PROMISE of festivals and the camaraderie of preparing for festivals.
You pay the 8 BP every month if you promise 24 a year, in other words. Because that 8 BP goes toward said preparations for the festivals you're having every other week.
Festivals: If you choose to have 24 per year [costing 8BP (or 4 with an Arena)] do you pay the 8BP once and then gain +4 Loyalty for the next 12 months of checks?
I assume that if you start low and then increase the number after a few months, you just pay the difference in BP?
The bonus granted by festivals is a result as much from the actual festivals as it is the PROMISE of festivals and the camaraderie of preparing for festivals.
You pay the 8 BP every month if you promise 24 a year, in other words. Because that 8 BP goes toward said preparations for the festivals you're having every other week.
OK, thanks.
Maybe the chart should read "Festivals" rather than "Festivals per Year" as everything else is done on a month to month basis, the "per year" bit is [was!] a little confusing.
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The 2nd link appears to be broken.I think it shouldn't be an issue. Some of us (including me...) have created spreadsheets including calculation functionality and descriptions and that seemed to be acceptable. (If not..... I will remove mine).
I would be happy to look at your sheet.... I probably still have to implement some of the errate in my own sheet though.
The current sheets I have seen are:
Berhagen's Kingmaker Kingdom Sheet V1.1.
Kingmaker Kingdom SheetR-Kelleg's Sheet:
Kingmaker Kingdom Sheet
yes
please update it to
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I am not your rolling wheel... I am the highwayOn a dark desert highway, cool wind in my hairCorrect. Roads are roads. Highways are something else entirely, and are beyond the scope of the rules as they currently stand.Just for clarification, I assume Roads are the same as Roads/Trails in chapter 7 of PFRPG Core and not Highways? (Possible area for rules expansion?)
I'm really enjoying these rules so far and look forward to running some kingdom based games even if I don't actually get players to run through Kingmaker proper.
I'm on a highwayyyyyy to Hell!
Life is a hiiiiiiiiiiighway! I wanna riiiiiide it all night long!!!!
[please feel free to continue finding song-bits related to highways.... :P]
Highway song.. you sing it on and on.. on and on..
Highway song.. is as lonely.. as the road I'm on..
I am not your rolling wheel... I am the highwayOn a dark desert highway, cool wind in my hairCorrect. Roads are roads. Highways are something else entirely, and are beyond the scope of the rules as they currently stand.Just for clarification, I assume Roads are the same as Roads/Trails in chapter 7 of PFRPG Core and not Highways? (Possible area for rules expansion?)
I'm really enjoying these rules so far and look forward to running some kingdom based games even if I don't actually get players to run through Kingmaker proper.
I'm on a highwayyyyyy to Hell!
Life is a hiiiiiiiiiiighway! I wanna riiiiiide it all night long!!!!
[please feel free to continue finding song-bits related to highways.... :P]
Highway song.. you sing it on and on.. on and on..
Highway song.. is as lonely.. as the road I'm on..
On a long and lonesome highway
East of OmahaOn topic, what kind of effects would having a desert hex cause for a kingdom?
Would you be able to build farms in them, or would they be little more than a resource sink?
Maybe I'm just a big dummy, but what I'd REALLY like to see is a detailed example of this whole building process. Let's say, three complete turns with all the phases.
As written I can't follow the entire process from beginning to end.
Help me Paizo!
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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This doesn't necessarily break everything down by phase, but it does give a capsule of each month. This covers the first 13 months of the kingdom's existence and might give a useful overview.
BTW, the "claimed" hexes have been given grid coordinates - just go down the left side of the hex map starting with A at the top. Then go across the top of the map enumerate the hexes above their upper right facing. Start with 1 at the left and go across, and then down the right side of the map. This gives you a straight horizontal hexline as your latitude (letter) and a diagonal/vertical hexline as your longitude (number)
Kuthona 4709
Summary: In celebration of their defeat of the Stag Lord, the PCs proclaimed their new domain and established their first city on the site of Oleg's Trading Post, dubbing it the city of Northgate. Irina was crowned as ruler and immediately starts ordering everyone around!
Claimed: B6
Buildings Constructed: Caster's Tower, House, free Stable
Major Events: None
Abadius 4710
Summary: The first trouble creeps into the kingdom as some of your settlers start disappearing. Clever tracking reveals it to be the work of a pair of savage werewolves! They are put down like the snarling curs they are.
Claimed: C7
Buildings Constructed: Graveyard, farm and road
Major Events: Werewolf attack!
Calistril 4710
Summary: The rulers start hunkering down and trying to get the kingdom in order for the coming year.
Claimed: D7
Buildings Constructed: Smith, farm and road
Major Events: Jhod Kavken, priest of Erastil, offers to set his followers to work clearing the forested land around the ruined Temple of the Elk in the forests of the northern Narlmarches in order to reestablish a town and temple there and add it to the barony.
Pharast 4710
Summary: A continued focus on building, including clearing some terrain to connect Northgate to the planned town of Elk Run in the forest.
Claimed: D6
Buildings Constructed: Tannery, logging camp and road
Major Events: None.
Gozran 4710
Summary: Continued building leads to establishment of the barony's second permanent settlement as the restoration of the temple is completed at Elk Run. Followers of Erastil, LG patron of the hunt and the hearth, rejoice!
Claimed: D5
Buildings Constructed: Temple (Elk Run), road
Major Events: New town! In addition, a married couple of foresters, Loy and Latricia Rezbin, come forward with a plan to establish a trading post and village at F5 to be called Tatzlford, after the tatzlwyrms that have recently been cleared out of the area. They have already built a ford across the river and can clear the area to make it ready for a town, but need support from the PCs to build it. They are encouraged to continue with preparations but that founding the town will have to wait a bit.
Desnus 4710
Summary: The happy expansion of the barony is rocked by scandal!!! Something about paladins and brothels and "medical examinations" - it's all rather unclear in the details, but suffice to say the people are not happy.
Claimed: E7
Buildings Constructed: Smith (Elk Run), road and farm
Major Events: Scandal! Outrage!
Sarenith 4710
Summary: The PCs decide to drum up some good press and go out to slay a rampaging pack of wild wolves menacing their southern frontier, the infamous "Howl of the North Wind." They succeed, and complete a thorough exploration of their northeastern frontier, but on returning home with their trophy face a near-insurrection led by Grigori, but the unrest is quelled and Grigori is turned to your side and adopted onto the leadership team.
Claimed: F8
Buildings Constructed: Monument (Elk Run), road and farm
Major Events: Political showdown with the rabble-rouser Grigori.
Erastus 4710
Summary: A simple turn of concentrated building turns ugly when a DRAGON menaces your southern farmlands. It is driven off eventually, but only after wreaking much destruction.
Claimed: B7
Buildings Constructed: Tannery (Elk Run), road and farm
Major Events: Monster attack!
Arodus 4710
Summary: A month of thankfully quiet reconstruction in the wake of the draconic menace.
Claimed: F9
Buildings Constructed: rebuild road and farm, build mine
Major Events: None.
Rova 4710
Summary: After much building and preparation, the barony has developed its lands down the Thorn River valley to the Stag Lord's old keep on the shores of the Tuskwater. Finally, the PCs can establish their capital city! Called Caer Sego, construction of the PCs' new castle is halted by an outbreak of the PLAGUE! Stupid unsanitary ruined castle!
Claimed: G8
Buildings Constructed: Castle (Caer Sego), road and farm
Major Events: Frickin plague. Why is this site infested with the Forest Jumbles? Also, the nixie who had taken up residence in the Stag Lord's keep with her pet hydra was still here, but her hydra had been killed, burned to death and torn apart by the look of it.
Lamashan 4710
Summary: The plague was successfully contained and the castle completed, allowing the PCs to finally move into their new capital!
Claimed: C8
Buildings Constructed: Park and House (Caer Sego), Graveyard (Elk Run), road and 2 farms
Major Events: None, but a continuing string of financial issues have cropped up. Something is messing with your money!
Neth 4710
Summary: Who knew ruling your own country could be so hard? Tensions flare between north and south over moving the capital, and deputies sent out to calm the dispute end up taking sides themselves.
Claimed: D9
Buildings Constructed: Town hall and Dump (Caer Sego), 2 roads, 2 farms
Major Events: Let's start the feud!!!
Kuthona 4710
Summary: Thanks to massive efforts to appease the populace with buildings focused on security and peace, the feud cools to a simmer but still there is strife in the hinterlands.
Claimed: B8
Buildings Constructed: Watchtower and House (Caer Sego), City Wall (Northgate), 1 road, 2 farms
Major Events: The feud is ongoing, but not at the fever pitch of the last month. Perhaps the people were mollified by celebrating Sego's anniversary and moving into their second year.
For those reading, the previous post does contain some house rules.
Such as the logging camp, building mines, and expansion rate. (That kingdom is far from the size to set up more than one farm a month.)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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For those reading, the previous post does contain some house rules.
Such as the logging camp, building mines, and expansion rate. (That kingdom is far from the size to set up more than one farm a month.)
Nice catch -For a minute I thought my players were CHEATING!
But it seems that I misread the kingdom spreadsheet. They spent 2 BP per turn making farms. Not 2 farms.
The extra farms was just an error on my part.
The logging camp and mine are house rules.
So, is there a list of collected errata for the building stats?
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So, is there a list of collected errata for the building stats?
I give Paizo permission to remove the following links if they feel it is necessary (not that I could stop them), so if there isn't a link without an edit by me that is what happened.
I made this spreadsheet (OpenOffice format for download).
This is allegedly Excel 2007 format for download.
And this is an ugly unformatted for printing PDF for those that all else fails for. EDIT:: There that should work better.
I don't think there are any typos in it.
Untiered buildings are unaffected by other buildings. Tier 1 buildings halve the cost of Tier 2, which halves the cost of Tier 3.
Thanks a lot for that breakdown, Jason. And now for the questions...
In round 1, they buildings cost 32 BP. How'd they get that much? In later rounds, they seem to spend 6-10 BP and then in 4710 they spend 32 on a temple? Then 6-10 for a couple turns and then a castle at 54 BP.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Thanks a lot for that breakdown, Jason. And now for the questions...
In round 1, they buildings cost 32 BP. How'd they get that much? In later rounds, they seem to spend 6-10 BP and then in 4710 they spend 32 on a temple? Then 6-10 for a couple turns and then a castle at 54 BP.
When you establish the kingdom, you get 50 BP from Brevoy as "starting money" for your domain.
The temple and the castle were both half price (so 16 and 27 BP, respectively) because they were built on top of "ruins" that the party found on the map - a ruined temple for the temple (obviously) and the former Stag Lord's keep for the castle.
One other thing that I think is neat about the BP system is that it allows you to work in campaign rewards in ways other than simple cash. For instance, making nice with certain groups might persuade them to clear a hex for you for free (as happened with the forest/temple city hex), or fulfilling a certain mini-quest might induce a foreign noble to pay half (or some portion of) the cost of a Mansion or Noble Villa in your city so they can visit, things like that.
It just lets you implement in-game rewards that make thematic sense without worrying about it impacting the PC/g.p. wealth balance.
This doesn't necessarily break everything down by phase, but it does give a capsule of each month. This covers the first 13 months of the kingdom's existence and might give a useful overview.
<snip>
Kuthona 4709
Summary: In celebration of their defeat of the Stag Lord, the PCs proclaimed their new domain and established their first city on the site of Oleg's Trading Post, dubbing it the city of Northgate. Irina was crowned as ruler and immediately starts ordering everyone around!
Claimed: B6
Buildings Constructed: Caster's Tower, House, free Stable
Major Events: None<snip>
Thanks a bunch Jason. I would, however, love to see "the maths" included for a more all inclusive example.
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I have also been tinkering with the rules for hiring "expert builders" for building things. the BP cost would (naturally) be higher and at first the bonuses would be lower at first. However over time the bonuses would eventually go up (due to the better construction more visual appela and what not) and in the long run would be a smart investment even if it initially would cost more. This idea was inspired by the original concept of the Free Masons during the Gothic period of construction (not to be confused with the Goth craze among teens and young adults today).
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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This doesn't necessarily break everything down by phase, but it does give a capsule of each month. This covers the first 13 months of the kingdom's existence and might give a useful overview.
<snip>
Kuthona 4709
Summary: In celebration of their defeat of the Stag Lord, the PCs proclaimed their new domain and established their first city on the site of Oleg's Trading Post, dubbing it the city of Northgate. Irina was crowned as ruler and immediately starts ordering everyone around!
Claimed: B6
Buildings Constructed: Caster's Tower, House, free Stable
Major Events: None<snip>
Thanks a bunch Jason. I would, however, love to see "the maths" included for a more all inclusive example.
Yeah, I knew that's what you were hoping for, but this is what I had on hand. Maybe next time we run a kingdom turn (which might be tomorrow night) I'll keep track of the math. Honestly, though, a lot of the bonuses are precalculated by spreadsheet so I'd have to disentangle the spreadsheet to lay out all of the bonuses... I mean, if you want to see ALL the math.
Yeah, I knew that's what you were hoping for, but this is what I had on hand. Maybe next time we run a kingdom turn (which might be tomorrow night) I'll keep track of the math. Honestly, though, a lot of the bonuses are precalculated by spreadsheet so I'd have to disentangle the spreadsheet to lay out all of the bonuses... I mean, if you want to see ALL the math.
The plain and simple is that I am plain and simple; I honestly need my hand held for the first time, step by step. I can understand the basic BP cost of each thing, but all the check DCs with all the modifiers, the steps in order, and things like size capacity of each hex are unknown... how many city blocks (the smallest unit of building measurement, correct?) fit into a hex?
Thanks,
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Creative Director
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... how many city blocks (the smallest unit of building measurement, correct?) fit into a hex?
Well... a hex is 12 miles across from side to side (not from angle to angle), and a single city block is about a square mile...
So about 120 city districts will fit into a hex, and that means that since there's 36 blocks per district, you can fit 4,320 city blocks into a hex. Assuming all that hex's ground is actually ground, and not water.
But 120 city districts is enough that I suspect no one will really ever hit that limit in the course of most campaigns. The kingdom building rules certainly weren't built with that expectation, so if you WERE to do this, I bet the rules would start doing some weird stuff.
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Yeah, I knew that's what you were hoping for, but this is what I had on hand. Maybe next time we run a kingdom turn (which might be tomorrow night) I'll keep track of the math. Honestly, though, a lot of the bonuses are precalculated by spreadsheet so I'd have to disentangle the spreadsheet to lay out all of the bonuses... I mean, if you want to see ALL the math.The plain and simple is that I am plain and simple; I honestly need my hand held for the first time, step by step. I can understand the basic BP cost of each thing, but all the check DCs with all the modifiers, the steps in order, and things like size capacity of each hex are unknown... how many city blocks (the smallest unit of building measurement, correct?) fit into a hex?
Thanks,
As many as you want, really. I don't think it's going to get larger than what the hex is. A city district has 36 city blocks (6 blocks x 6 blocks) and each city block is a 750 ft square. As the Kingdom Building rules talk about, this means that an entire district is about 1 square mile in size.
A hex is 12 miles across, which means it has about 132 square miles of space. A district takes up 1 square mile of space. So you can have a LOT of districts.
I doubt any kingdom will ever have that many districts in one game, so the short answer is... as many districts can fit in the hex as you want. :)
EDIT: Damnit James! I'm supposed to ninja you, not the other way around.
You COULD think about allowing some kind of kingdom improvement to be built that allowed you to bank BP from consumption, but overall I think building farms would be a very cheap way to earn BP for your kingdom compared to other ways to get there.Farm Surplus, but then you'd have to have an event that covers the spoiling/bugs/market tank for those surplus goods
This would be a big part of the legitimacy of pharaos of old... granaries and cats :p
Would be quite nice when you can state your granaries will be able to feed the kingdom for decades even if there were no rain for all that time...
Also with largescale agriculture... farms is where people breed, as each kid is more labor and thus more wealth to the family... and cities is where the people die, as each kid is more costs, no labor allowed and few opportunities even if allowed.
So with plenty of farms, a colonsation should be possible to hold up indefinately and accelerating.. grain in granaries to persuade people to move (yeah even if harvest fails, no problem), and plenty of young couples..making even more colonists in a few more years.. yeah 14 is a good marrying age.. especially if getting a horse and a bull and some cows, lumber and tools added. Fullscale community barnraisings..
Manifest destiny ;) Land goes to men, not goblins :p
Polyhedron, I really like the issues you're bringing up!
I'm with you on PCs confiscating magic items... it seems a bit absurd to imagine that the king is going off to lead his armies into battle, in defense of the kingdom, yet the best weapon in the kingdom, rather than being in his hands, is in a shop somewhere.
Jumping into this from my professional policy wonk perspective. When government begins confiscating things "for the greater good", there are consequences. Certainly Unrest would grow, and the Economy might well suffer, too, as merchants decided they didn't want to risk doing business in that kingdom. I can see a Stolen Lands version of the Tea Party movement cropping up to protest the heavy hand of government. By confiscating private property, a kingdom is also making the statement that the rulers of the kingdom are above the law, which also has consequences in terms of Loyalty, and how the kingdom is viewed not just by its own citizens, but by neighbors. None of that is to say that, in a true national emergency, rulers wouldn't be justified or have popular support for appropriating magic items or other property for the good of the kingdom. Just to say that there are consequences for every decision a ruler makes.
Add my kudos tot many listed for developing these kingdom building rules. I plan to start running in another month or so, and my players and I are more excited by this than anything we've done in a long while.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I haven't actually seen the new movie Iron Man 2 yet, but as I understand it part of the plot is actually centered on this exact issue.
Tony Stark has invented the Iron Man suit. It's the best weapon in the kingdom.
The government has Important Stuff (TM) that it wants to do. Therefore, it wants to borrow/take the best weapon in the kingdom and use it for what it wants to do.
Should the government be able to just go confiscate the Iron Man suit "for the greater good?"
I assume in the movie Tony Stark is not too keen on the feds just yoinking his prize creation that (a) he's worked really hard and invested a lot in making and (b) is also a dangerous weapon that he doesn't necessarily trust in the hands of just anybody.
The government could try to take it by force, in which case he would be justified in resisting with force, right? Especially in a land like the River Kingdoms.
If you are looking for a "realistic in-game rationale" try this:
It's a perfectly rational response - no caster is going to waste their time in a Caster's Tower pumping out magic items to get rich if the king shows that he is willing and able to just go and steal their stuff, or even just borrow it without asking.
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I haven't actually seen the new movie Iron Man 2 yet, but as I understand it part of the plot is actually centered on this exact issue.
Tony Stark has invented the Iron Man suit. It's the best weapon in the kingdom.
The government has Important Stuff (TM) that it wants to do. Therefore, it wants to borrow/take the best weapon in the kingdom and use it for what it wants to do.
Should the government be able to just go confiscate the Iron Man suit "for the greater good?"
I assume in the movie Tony Stark is not too keen on the feds just yoinking his prize creation that (a) he's worked really hard and invested a lot in making and (b) is also a dangerous weapon that he doesn't necessarily trust in the hands of just anybody.
The government could try to take it by force, in which case he would be justified in resisting with force, right? Especially in a land like the River Kingdoms.
If you are looking for a "realistic in-game rationale" try this:
It's a perfectly rational response - no caster is going to waste their time in a Caster's Tower pumping out magic items to get rich if the king shows that he is willing and able to just go and steal their stuff, or even just borrow it without asking.
good point. how about if they ask first? :)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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good point. how about if they ask first? :)I haven't actually seen the new movie Iron Man 2 yet, but as I understand it part of the plot is actually centered on this exact issue.
Tony Stark has invented the Iron Man suit. It's the best weapon in the kingdom.
The government has Important Stuff (TM) that it wants to do. Therefore, it wants to borrow/take the best weapon in the kingdom and use it for what it wants to do.
Should the government be able to just go confiscate the Iron Man suit "for the greater good?"
I assume in the movie Tony Stark is not too keen on the feds just yoinking his prize creation that (a) he's worked really hard and invested a lot in making and (b) is also a dangerous weapon that he doesn't necessarily trust in the hands of just anybody.
The government could try to take it by force, in which case he would be justified in resisting with force, right? Especially in a land like the River Kingdoms.
If you are looking for a "realistic in-game rationale" try this:
It's a perfectly rational response - no caster is going to waste their time in a Caster's Tower pumping out magic items to get rich if the king shows that he is willing and able to just go and steal their stuff, or even just borrow it without asking.
I think they'd be less likely to actually *fight* the government if they asked, but they'd still be pretty likely to say no.
Really, if you think about it, in order for these kind of magic item generation buildings to work, shouldn't there have to be high-level SPELLCASTERS inside those buildings actually MAKING the items?
So, really, think about it. You have a 4th level party. They've built a "minor items" building and get a +1 animal bane longbow - are they really going to be *ABLE* to go shake down an 8th level wizard or cleric (plus whatever other assistants are working there) to take it?
They'd probably get their butts kicked.
Heaven forbid they want a spell storing weapon (min CL 12th).
True, not every item is going to have a caster level above the party's level, but a LOT of them will, especially the Medium items. These things aren't just getting spontaneously generated in an in-game sense. SOMEONE is making them, and it's not the PCs. Those people in their kingdom are also not making items FOR the PCs. They don't take requests. They don't fight to protect the kingdom or the city if it's attacked. Wouldn't it be nice if that apparently friendly/neutral caster up in the tower could be called upon to do other things?
Then again, maybe it's a good thing that the people in the academy and the caster's tower and the temple don't decide to just kick the low-level doormat PCs to the curb and take over the kingdom for themselves, since they may be double or triple the PCs' level.
The trade in these items is what is generating the flow of resources in the kingdom (= BP). People come through town to look the items over. They and their retinue spend money at the tavern, buy other things at the shop. More traffic attracts more commoner citizens looking to make their way in the world, etc.
Put bluntly, these people are running a business... THEIR business. They are selling things through the local economy, which makes the kingdom as a whole prosper. They are not owned, operated, or controlled by the PCs/the government, and the things they create are not the property of the PCs/the government. They just happen IN the PCs' kingdom, so that commercial activity is part of the economy of the whole kingdom.
These magic items "can be purchased" which makes it sound like they belong to someone. But the magic items "held by your cities" can be sold with the money going to the treasury - which makes it sound like they are not owned by people.
If the items are the cities, then there's no reason the PCs can't take and use them (unless maybe it is a limited use item in which case I'd treat it like a withdrawal). If the items are owned by someone, then the kingdom shouldn't be selling it.
Which is it?
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Creative Director
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These magic items "can be purchased" which makes it sound like they belong to someone. But the magic items "held by your cities" can be sold with the money going to the treasury - which makes it sound like they are not owned by people.
If the items are the cities, then there's no reason the PCs can't take and use them (unless maybe it is a limited use item in which case I'd treat it like a withdrawal). If the items are owned by someone, then the kingdom shouldn't be selling it.
Which is it?
The items for sale are for sale in shops and stores and temples and the like. They're not PC property, any more than the shops and stores and temples are.
The game's economy is already fragile enough without letting the PCs get free random magic items to use. If you don't enforce the "you must buy the magic items if you want them" rule, the characters have a VERY good chance of getting ahold of items that are simply too powerful for them.
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These magic items "can be purchased" which makes it sound like they belong to someone. But the magic items "held by your cities" can be sold with the money going to the treasury - which makes it sound like they are not owned by people.
If the items are the cities, then there's no reason the PCs can't take and use them (unless maybe it is a limited use item in which case I'd treat it like a withdrawal). If the items are owned by someone, then the kingdom shouldn't be selling it.
Which is it?
The items are owned by undefined people who make them and who play no other role in the kingdom.
But here's the thing I think is confusing for people:
BP is *not* a pile of money in the kingdom's vault.
BP represents all of the human and material resources and the economic activity of the kingdom.
So, when you have no unrest and you make a Stability check, someone doesn't roll up to your palace with a wagon load of 1 BP worth of gold ingots and drop it in the vault. It just means that the combined productivity of the people of your kingdom increases by 1 BP worth of productivity. More logs are sawn into boards. More chickens are raised and laying eggs. More wandering peddlers move from tiny unmarked hamlet to tiny unmarked hamlet selling penny whistles and moon pies. There is peace and order and happiness and prosperity...
... which adds up to the NET WORTH of your kingdom's human and material wealth increasing by 1 BP in equivalent value.
Magic item sales operate on the same principle EXCEPT for the fact that they are attached to specific object--"this wand of darkvision that my Luxury Store rolled up for one of its minor items." Its owners are undefined NPCs. They may have created the item. They may have bought it from someone else. They may have gotten it in trade. The point is that they are buying and selling items all throughout the month, and the BP realized from making your Economy roll to "sell a specific item" is the abstracted form of representing the commerce in magical trinkets and all of the micro-industries that support that trade that this business has been doing all month long.
Your magic item creating buildings are attracting clients coming through town who patronize other businesses, who engage in under-the-table deals for items that don't come up in the public "store window" and they keep other people in business. The caster's tower is employing other people to gather skunk cabbage leaves and eyelashes and gum arabic and sulfur and bat guano and amber rods and wolf fur and all manner of magical stuff, to create flasks and alembics and vials, to chop firewood, to make pots in various sizes and metals, to build new tables and workbenches to replace ones incinerated when experiments occasionally explode, and on and on down the list. Heck, they are hiring bodyguards and trapmakers to defend their valuable stashes and vaults!
The point is this: Selling a magic item for BP is not a one-time over-the-counter transaction. It *looks* like that because that's the way the rules are written - as an abstracted representation. You sell a +2 shield, you get the BP. But the abstraction *REPRESENTS* the whole work of buying and selling magic items and everything around that trade FOR THE ENTIRE MONTH. And...
... the BP that are gained from selling magic items are not gold bars to stick in your vault. It is increased economic and building activity all across your kingdom for the whole month.
It is NOT: "I, King Bob, took this Medium Item from MY caster's tower and sold it to [nameless NPC] for 8 BP. I took 8 BP out of my wallet and went down to the Building Store and bought myself a new Library in Bobville, and look I have 2 BP left over to stick back in my wallet."
It IS: "The citizens of Bobovia work within the magic trade all month long. Many items are bought and sold, including the public sale of Medium Item. The citizens are happy and productive, and at the suggestion of King Bob and his ruling council, over the course of the month have been working on building a library and collecting books for it over in Bobville, surrounded by a new neighborhood* and maybe even private tutors who can educate the citizens of Bobville. It has required much hard work but the citizens are happy and proud of it and are already planning their next project (i.e., have 2 BP yet to spend, even though the final purpose to which it will be put)."
* Remember that every "building" is presumed to include a number of homes scattered around the city "square" where the building is built - a Library is not a 750' x 750' building; it means that this city square has a library per se, but that the neighborhood around it is also generally dedicated to the purpose of education.
For some reason I can't access this thread by clicking on Jason's post...Perhaps mine will break the curse.
Very well put by the way. I was just explaining this exact same idea to my players.
Can you build cities in hexes you haven't claimed?
I.e. can your kindom be broken up into several contiguous areas, spreading around several cities? The fact that the founding of Tatzlford occurs regardless of claimed hexes seems to suggest so, and so does the text on p. 57 ("must be in a hex you have explored and cleared", not claimed)... but that might be talking about the first city only.
You must have claimed the hex for you to build there. Tatzlford seems to be the exception to the rule to help with Blood for Blood.
wait wait. You can, of course have several districts on 1 single HEX
even more, you can have several cities of several district on the same hex !
as far as I red it correctly of course...
Can you? I didn't see that rule... so I can build like, four districts all in one hex and then have each district be part of a city? That makes so much more sense!
Also, there's a box that says "City" in consumption. Does each city have consumption, or just the areas in general? Does the number of cities present add to consumption?
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The more I read the kingdom rules, the more disappointed I am by the total uselessness of forests. Makes you wonder what all the trouble with the lads in Sherwood was about IRL. I suspect that one reason they got downplayed is that nowadays, most players and GMs, if they cook at all, do so with invisible fuels like electricity or piped gas, rather than dung, wood, or charcoal. If anyone else is bothered by this, I'd suggest letting forests with roads in them contribute one point towards Consumption (half a farm). That way you break even on claiming them.
Is there any rules reason not to do this? And if not, exactly why are elves willing to fight to protect these barren wastelands, and why do humans bother to try and exploit them? Are the humans so young and stupid that they know no better? Are the elves as leafy-minded as bloody-minded dragons that need their shiny hoards?
Swamps, deserts and tundra I can see as being net costs.
As for mountains and how dwarves or anything manages to subsist in the underdark, I figure they work off an alternate food chain. One where lichens and fungi are not so much lithavores as they are neutrinosynthesizers.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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wait wait. You can, of course have several districts on 1 single HEX
even more, you can have several cities of several district on the same hex !
as far as I red it correctly of course...Can you? I didn't see that rule... so I can build like, four districts all in one hex and then have each district be part of a city? That makes so much more sense!
Also, there's a box that says "City" in consumption. Does each city have consumption, or just the areas in general? Does the number of cities present add to consumption?
Each hex you own costs 1 point of consumption.
Each city district you own costs 1 point of consumption.If you have a hex with a city district, that costs 2 points of consumption.
If you have a hex with 1 big city with, say, 4 city districts, that costs 5 points of consumption.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The more I read the kingdom rules, the more disappointed I am by the total uselessness of forests. Makes you wonder what all the trouble with the lads in Sherwood was about IRL. I suspect that one reason they got downplayed is that nowadays, most players and GMs, if they cook at all, do so with invisible fuels like electricity or piped gas, rather than dung, wood, or charcoal. If anyone else is bothered by this, I'd suggest letting forests with roads in them contribute one point towards Consumption (half a farm). That way you break even on claiming them.
Is there any rules reason not to do this? And if not, exactly why are elves willing to fight to protect these barren wastelands, and why do humans bother to try and exploit them? Are the humans so young and stupid that they know no better? Are the elves as leafy-minded as bloody-minded dragons that need their shiny hoards?
Swamps, deserts and tundra I can see as being net costs.
As for mountains and how dwarves or anything manages to subsist in the underdark, I figure they work off an alternate food chain. One where lichens and fungi are not so much lithavores as they are neutrinosynthesizers.
It's true. My suggested alt rule about making mills and mines and work camps was designed to help offset this by making forests at least exploitable, but I'm still not entirely happy about it.
My PCs, for instance, several of whom are inveterate min-maxers, are pretty much avoiding forest hexes like the plague. The only exception was taking two forest hexes to get to the Temple of the Elk site, where they got a half-price temple and (because of positive dealings with NPCs) free city prep in the hex once they had claimed it.
As for Tatzlford - if the PCs don't claim hexes to go over to the site, what happens is that Loy and Leticia found the town themselves. It is NOT part of the PCs' domain. It is an independent town. Of course, the PCs could try to annex it later...
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Forests are resource rich but not necessarily as desirable in an agricultural situation as farmland. Which is why, when we were a farming people, we had less trees than we do now.
The boys in sherwood were poaching deer, which is why they were in trouble. But deer hunting, while good for families, is a hard way to feed a large community or city. Farming sheep and cattle is better.
As for firewood and cooking wood, this doesn't require whole forests, about four or five large trees per family will get one through an entire year I am pretty certain. And if there is coal available, which provides a better heat, this amount is reduced greatly.
The additional rules allow you to build camps, giving bonuses to economy and stability, doing pretty much what you described. In a hex with an abundance of special lumber (like the hex where the players meet Corax and Melianse) you can get +2/+2 for 6BP, which is a pretty sweet deal IMO.
You might also rule that the radish patches could serve as a resource, making at least two forest hexes (beyond Tatzlford and the Temple of the Elk) desirable.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Per RAW, kingdom alignment only affects your bonuses, though your kingdom is expected to actually, yknow, conform to its alignment just like a PC or NPC would. If you claim to be THIS alignment but don't act like it, the DM is well within rights to deny the bonus (but since you're not actually following some OTHER alignment you don't just shift the bonus to that other alignment; you'd get nothing).
Maybe that's a little old school for some, so YMMV.
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Creative Director
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Was wondering if a Shrine generating a minor item was a typo and that should go under Shop. I plan on doing that in my session but thought I would ask just to make sure.
I apologize if this has been discussed and I am just not seeing it
Shrines get magic items because they're tended by spellcasters and spellcasters often take crafting feats. And because a shrine is basically the divine spellcaster version of a caster's tower.
If a kingdom is broke and can't pay the BP, does the BP go negative (and keeps going) or does it hold at 0 until the kingdom makes some money?
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If a kingdom is broke and can't pay the BP, does the BP go negative (and keeps going) or does it hold at 0 until the kingdom makes some money?
Look at page 61, step 2 of the upkeep phase.
BP can indeed go negative. Every month that you end an upkeep phase with negative BP, you gain 2 unrest. Bankruptcy is bad news.
I'm having a tough time seeing how you'd get a kingdom up and running. Let's try an example:
Let's say you fill the 4 leadership positions that affect economy with +2 people for a total Economy roll of 8. Let's spend most of our 50 BP to buy a marketplace, economy +2 for +10. Alignment and edicts might change those slightly, but not by a lot.
You have one hex, plus a district, for a consumption of at least -2.
So you have a 50/50 shot of making no income. If you spent all your BP, then the consumption takes you negative, which gives you unrest, which makes the chance less than 50/50 next round, which gives you more unrest, and your city quickly spirals out of control.
Even if you have BP in reserve, you have a 50/50 outcome of -2 or +2. So over time, you're not going to do much better than break even.
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I'm having a tough time seeing how you'd get a kingdom up and running.
I haven't actually run a kingdom building session yet, but I imagine that the initial stages involve a lot of starting slow, building farmlands and roads, that sort of thing. New kingdoms would also be wise to start around some kind of natural resource that would increase their Economy score.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I'm having a tough time seeing how you'd get a kingdom up and running.I haven't actually run a kingdom building session yet, but I imagine that the initial stages involve a lot of starting slow, building farmlands and roads, that sort of thing. New kingdoms would also be wise to start around some kind of natural resource that would increase their Economy score.
My players have been building farms obsessively to control consumption. The first turn you'll have a city and no farm, but you have your initial BP pile to carry you through. You build a coupla farms next.
Also, your PCs may have far better ability scores than +2, depending on how their stats line up and what level of rolling or point buy you use.
Also, in terms of bang for your buck, your kingdom would probably start wtih smaller buildings first rather than trying to build one giant building at the start. Marketplace is pricey; build a couple of shops or breweries or what have you for a more efficient boost to Economy.
Also, marketplace gets you magic items which will make you plenty of extra BP as well.
All of that is just to say that there are plenty of ways to get the economy up and running.
I'm having a tough time seeing how you'd get a kingdom up and running. Let's try an example:
... Let's spend most of our 50 BP to buy a marketplace, economy +2 for +10. ...
You have one hex, plus a district, for a consumption of at least -2.
... If you spent all your BP, then the consumption takes you negative ...
As Jason said: Don't spend all the BP on an expensive building, make something small like smiths. Claim some surrounding hexes and build farms. I've run a few sample kingdoms through the first year, and it really isn't that hard to get a stable base. The trick really is to have zero (or near zero) consumption via farmland. Then the economy roll isn't make or break for the kingdom, but instead is how much the kingdom expands this month.