In the end the main question I have with this post is why Arcane Armor Training was giving the 3rd level caster prerequisite, rather than something more liberal? I'm not seeing how it would be imbalancing, and would help in patching the whole issue of arcane warriors, at least to the degree that you could play the concept from level 1 or 2 depending on player choices.
<one post sacrificed to the post-monster later...grr...>
Casting in melee (i.e. the 'arcane warrior') is a trap. And it's not because of Arcane Spell Failure (ASF), it's Concentration checks.
Cast defensively = DC 15 + 2x spell level.
So let's say you're a Ftr1/Wiz1. Let's also say you have Combat Casting and 18 INT. You have a +9 on Concentration checks to cast defensive; +4 from the feat, +4 from INT, +1 from caster level. You therefore have to roll an 8 to cast a 1st level spell successfully. You have a 35% failure rate.
One third of the time, you will fail, wasting a spell and your action for the turn. You could pull the 5' step and cast normal, but you can't always pull this off (lack of 'safe' space).
Granted, ASF makes this worse (double whammy), but IMO this is so bad that you're way better off sticking to stabbing things until you can reliably make the defensive casting rolls - which is probably around 3rd caster level (depends on what you consider reliable...25%? 20%? 5%?). That might be your answer. ASF and Concentration checks become manageable around the same time? 3rd and 7th caster levels are breakpoints for this in both regards (25% Conc failure and AAT at 3rd, 5% Conc failure and AAM at 7th).
I wouldn't stress it too much, take one level fighter and do the rest in the arcane spellcasting class of your choice. Here is your spell list:
Level 0: Flare, Light
Level 1: Feather Fall, True Strike, Ventriloquism
Level 2: Blindness/Deafness, Blur, Darkness, Knock
Level 3: Displacement, Suggestion, Tongues
Level 4: Dimension Door, Lesser Geas, Shout
Level 5: Contact Other Plane*, Teleport
Level 6: Geas*, Mass Suggestion
Level 7: Power Word Blind, Greater Teleport, Teleport Object
Level 8: Irresistible Dance, Power Word Stun
Level 9: Power Word Kill, Prismatic Sphere, Teleportation Circle*, Wail of the Banshee
None of these spells have somatic components, and can thus be cast in any armor regardless of arcane spell failure. Yeah, the first level spells are a little weak, but you should have a giant two handed sword to really lay out the hurt with. Pick up Still Spell for any other spells you want to cast and call it good. I would recommend a familiar for this route, pick up Improved Familiar at some point (I know you'll be feat starved, but it'll help) and buy your little opposable thumb buddy (remember to give them ranks in Use Magic Device) a wand of Haste or something. Also invest in Wands and Scrolls for yourself, because last time I checked, activating a Wand or Scroll didn't check for Arcane Spell Failure.
I wouldn't stress it too much, take one level fighter and do the rest in the arcane spellcasting class of your choice. Here is your spell list:
Level 0: Flare, Light
Level 1: Feather Fall, True Strike, Ventriloquism
Level 2: Blindness/Deafness, Blur, Darkness, Knock
Level 3: Displacement, Suggestion, Tongues
Level 4: Dimension Door, Lesser Geas, Shout
Level 5: Contact Other Plane*, Teleport
Level 6: Geas*, Mass Suggestion
Level 7: Power Word Blind, Greater Teleport, Teleport Object
Level 8: Irresistible Dance, Power Word Stun
Level 9: Power Word Kill, Prismatic Sphere, Teleportation Circle*, Wail of the Banshee
Nice to see SOMEBODY read my post in the earlier thread. I can tell because you left in the (*)'s ^_^.
I appreciate it, it's been really helpful.
I appreciate it, it's been really helpful.
I'd love to hear more about how it's working for you. That was pretty much a thought exercise on my part, though I'd LOVE to run a Dwarf Ftr/Wiz/EK running that model.
In the end the main question I have with this post is why Arcane Armor Training was giving the 3rd level caster prerequisite, rather than something more liberal? I'm not seeing how it would be imbalancing, and would help in patching the whole issue of arcane warriors, at least to the degree that you could play the concept from level 1 or 2 depending on player choices
Simple answer, they generally hate the idea of an arcane caster in armor and doing decently in combat. James has been quoted saying that there is no plans on creating any class similar to a duskblade, and that we should just sit and be happy with the upcoming bard variant. I find it a bigger problem that they make both arcane armor training and arcane strike run on swift actions, then turn around and make the EK's lvl 10 class ability also run on a swift action. Some say that you can use a move action to perform a swift action, but that is not set in stone, and mostly a house rule. If you want to investigate this, I suggest you ask about move actions as swift actions at the society board.
Haven't been able to play anything with that build yet, but what I'd like to try is a Human Wizard with Arcane Strike and Still Spell at 1st level with these two traits (Our GM is pretty cool about letting us all pick two traits each game):
Magical Lineage
One of your parents was a gifted spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but developed many magical items and perhaps even a new spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this greatness. Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level.
Magical Knack
You were raised, either wholly or in part, by a magical creature, either after it found you abandoned in the woods or because your parents often left you in the care of a magical minion. This constant exposure to magic has made its mysteries easy for you to understand, even when you turn your mind to other devotions and tasks. Pick a class when you gain this trait—your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn’t increase your caster level higher than your current Hit Dice.
Figured I'd do (with a 20 point buy) 18 Str, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 15 Int, and 7 Cha. Start as a Wizard with a Spear and do second level as Fighter, load up on cool weapons and armor, then switch back to Wizard until I can hit Eldritch Knight. With the Magical Lineage trait I'd probably select Enlarge Person so I can Still that with a 1st level spell slot, and I'd keep full caster levels (if not spells) with the Magical Knack trait, so I think it'd be a pretty fun build.
I'd try and stick with the somatic-less spell list and use Still Spell only for really special spells. I've also found a list of spells I'd keep scribed for emergencies (Fly comes to mind). I might get a chance to play it soon, if I do I'll let you know how it goes.
(Our GM is pretty cool about letting us all pick two traits each game):
Magical Lineage
and
Magical Knack
Unless I am mistaken, both of those traits are magic traits. If so, you cannot have both at the same time. According to the rules, you can only have 1 trait from each area (faith, magic, region, religion, combat, etc..).
Haven't been able to play anything with that build yet, but what I'd like to try is a Human Wizard with Arcane Strike and Still Spell at 1st level with these two traits (Our GM is pretty cool about letting us all pick two traits each game)
Figured I'd do (with a 20 point buy) 18 Str, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 15 Int, and 7 Cha. Start as a Wizard with a Spear and do second level as Fighter, load up on cool weapons and armor, then switch back to Wizard until I can hit Eldritch Knight. With the Magical Lineage trait I'd probably select Enlarge Person so I can Still that with a 1st level spell slot, and I'd keep full caster levels (if not spells) with the Magical Knack trait, so I think it'd be a pretty fun build.
I waffle on this build as to whether to take Fighter at 1st or Wizard. The lure of Power Attack plus a 2H weapon right off the bat is a strong one. Plus max hp on the biggest dice available doesn't hurt either (it's a 4 point difference). Throw in Toughness and you'll have at least 15 hit points at 1st level.
Oh, and wizards can't use spears BTW.
Specialization is the tough one too. There's no single good choice from the Verbal only list and you don't want to close out any of the schools either. But you get almost zero use out of Universalist abilities. Diviner is probably the 'best' choice for the +5 Initiative you'll get out of it, and always acting in the surprise round, but opposition schools...Abjuration, maybe? Necromancy?
Going Ftr/Sor might be better, what with spontaneous still spells, the limited spell list, and benefits of 6 levels of a bloodline.
Haven't been able to play anything with that build yet, but what I'd like to try is a Human Wizard with Arcane Strike and Still Spell at 1st level with these two traits (Our GM is pretty cool about letting us all pick two traits each game)
Figured I'd do (with a 20 point buy) 18 Str, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 15 Int, and 7 Cha. Start as a Wizard with a Spear and do second level as Fighter, load up on cool weapons and armor, then switch back to Wizard until I can hit Eldritch Knight. With the Magical Lineage trait I'd probably select Enlarge Person so I can Still that with a 1st level spell slot, and I'd keep full caster levels (if not spells) with the Magical Knack trait, so I think it'd be a pretty fun build.
I waffle on this build as to whether to take Fighter at 1st or Wizard. The lure of Power Attack plus a 2H weapon right off the bat is a strong one. Plus max hp on the biggest dice available doesn't hurt either (it's a 4 point difference). Throw in Toughness and you'll have at least 15 hit points at 1st level.
Oh, and wizards can't use spears BTW.
Specialization is the tough one too. There's no single good choice from the Verbal only list and you don't want to close out any of the schools either. But you get almost zero use out of Universalist abilities. Diviner is probably the 'best' choice for the +5 Initiative you'll get out of it, and always acting in the surprise round, but opposition schools...Abjuration, maybe? Necromancy?
Going Ftr/Sor might be better, what with spontaneous still spells, the limited spell list, and benefits of 6 levels of a bloodline.
Ack, two good points! I always forget that wizards use the gimpy weapon list instead of all simple weapons and yes, Mistwalker, those ARE two magical traits, meaning you cannot take both. Hrm... Might just take Magical Knack and forget the rest.
As far as schools go, it is really a tough choice. Flare and Light are evocation, Feather Fall is Transmutation, True Strike is Divination and Ventriloquism is Illusion, and that's just first level. Blindness/Deafness is Necromancy, so probably not a school you'd want to give up.
Yeah, Sorc is looking better and better.
Note that there are a few other magical classes that you might consider that can use armor: the bard, the alchemist, and the summoner (someone mentioned the bard in passing).
I agree that I don't see the compelling reason to have a minimum caster level prerequisite on Arcane Armor Training.
Yeah, Sorc is looking better and better.
Ftr1/Sor4/DD4/EK for the win. You'd end up with 24STR (unaugmented!) and a +3 natural armor bonus. Your first iterative attack shows up at 9th level, one level behind a Cleric/Druid. Someone who goes Ftr1/Wiz5/EK gets his first iterative at 9th level as well, BTW. At 10th level you're a Sor7 in terms of spells, while a Ftr1/Wiz5/EK4 is Wiz8. Not a huge lag, but well worth the +4 STR and +3 Natural Armor you're getting (that's like 2 free, all the time buffing spells).