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Q3 - lightning bolt. My players insist that a lightning bolt "grounds" on the first thing (player or monster) it hits. I assume it would continue down the line and hit more things - is it a straight line hitting multiple things...
From the Pathfinder SRD -
You release a powerful stroke of electrical energy that deals 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to each creature within its area.
Emphasis mine.
I am rusty at running - but have a complex scenario, and need some help.
Players coming down a 5' wide straight corridor (single file), door about 40' way. On floor is an Alarm spell cast by the caster down that hall on the other side of a door. There is trash/junk on the floors which slows the party's movement thru that narrow tunnel.
Q1 - does the Rogue in the group get a "passive" attempt to "see" the alarm? Can he even disable it if he does see it?
Q2 - if the alarm spell triggers, can the enemy mage (since he knows for certain someone is approaching) and has "time" - open the door and cast a lightning bolt before the players can act ? Exactly when is initiative rolled in this case?
Q3 - lightning bolt. My players insist that a lightning bolt "grounds" on the first thing (player or monster) it hits. I assume it would continue down the line and hit more things - is it a straight line hitting multiple things...
Q4 - Beyond saving throws, Damage - is each player's damage rolled separately or does the bold do a "constant dam" and the saving throw rolls just affect that "consistent" damage?
Any help appreciated.
Q1) there is no such thing as a 'passive' perception check in the RAW, although many DM's have such a system in place.
Q2)Are the players aware of the mage? No, then the mage gets a surprise round and may do as you describe, if they are aware you might want to consider casting lightning bolt through the door. Which is way more fun ;>
Q3)Your players are wrong, its a line!
Q4)Roll once for damage.
Q1: There is a feat to allow a rogue to detect 'automatically' check for traps when he comes within 10 ft, so there is no 'passsive' check per se without the feat. Basically, the rogue must state he is checking for traps the length of the corridor to have a chance of detecting the 'alarm'
Q2: Straight forward. If, due to the tripped alarm, the mage is aware of the party and party is not aware of him, the mage can do whatever in preparation, including throwing open the door and lighting off a lightning bolt (surprise!)
Q3: Ah, rules rationalizers. Refer them to the description of the lightning bolt spell and remind they you are playing by the RAW (Rules As Written)
Q4: Roll once for damage
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Q3 - lightning bolt. My players insist that a lightning bolt "grounds" on the first thing (player or monster) it hits. I assume it would continue down the line and hit more things - is it a straight line hitting multiple things...
Q3 - The statements above are true regarding the spell affecting all creatures in the area. In order to avoid other situations, such as fireball turning a grease spell into a carpet of fire, could someone help me to find a specifice page reference? I just searched but to no avail. Anyways, I know that magic is instaneous and does not affect anything physical with the exceptions of it's target and if the description says otherwise. Therefore, no one would get electrocuted if your players were in a pool of water and a lightning bolt was cast into the water. Also, the lightning bolt cannot be grounded because it is magical energy emulating electricity not actual electricity.
This is a general rules question and does not pertain to the Pathfinder Society. I'm moving it to the appropriate forum.
Interesting - blast thru the door... nice next round action..
On the "surprise" he could open the door, cast and THEN close the door before the party can act? or after the cast - could he only then "move" to the side using the open door as "cover" - THEN blast thru the next round? Or is he "out of actions" and is then standing there in the open door facing the party?
During the suprise round, creatures that are not suprised get a SINGLE action (move or standard) and possibly free actions as well. Open or close a door is a move action. In the surprise round, the caster cannot do all three things, open the door, cast, close the door. He could pull that off if he won initiative, opening the door in the surprise round, casting as his standard action in his first round (against the still flat-footed party), closing the door as his move action in his first round, and possibly five foot stepping away from the door as well.
It somewhat depends on the DM ruling that opening the door is done BEFORE the surprise round or AS the surprise round action.
What *I* would do (not necessarily RAW) is give the party a perception check to hear the wizard moving to or opening the door. If they fail, the wizard opens it BEFORE the surprise round, if they succeed, opening the door counts as the wizard's action in the surprise round. If he has a helper open the door FOR him, then he most certainly CAN get the bolt off in the surprise round. Hope his helper can win initiative to close that door again before the party can react.
Is opening a door a move or a standard action? In any event, he couldn't open/cast/close unless the casting was a swift action spell. And he would need to start right beside the door to pull that off in one round.
Also, you only get a single standard action in a 'surprise' round.
Q1 - There is a rogue talent that allows a rogue to get a free perception check to notice traps within 10ft. If he has that talent, then yes, he gets a passive perception check. Without it, he needs to search each 5ft square individually. I don't see anywhere in the CRB that says how long it takes to search each square, but I think it was a full-round action in 3.5 to search a 5ft square.
Still, the alarm spell is not a trap anyways, so theres really no way for a rogue to find it using perception. A spellcaster with detect magic active would get the magic aura in the area and could potentially determine that it is an abjuration effect. Theres also no way to get rid of the alarm without using dispel magic or some similar effect.
Q2 - This is a bit trickier, and sticking to the rules isn't the best way to handle it. Technically, once the alarm goes off, the enemy mage is 'aware' of the PCs. Although he doesn't know what set off the alarm (his minions? a mouse? meddling kids?). So should he really be in initiative? How does he plan to react when the alarm is triggered? Will he open the door and start blasting? Will he open the door and see whats out there? Will he look through a peephole to see whats out there? Maybe he opens the door real quiet like and the PCs should make perception checks to see the door open. As the DM, you should figure out how this situation develops. Any way you do it is fine, as long as the challenge is appropriately rewarded. I'd probably say that one round after the alarm is triggered, the enemy mage opens the door and fires a lightning bolt. Then initiative starts. I'd potentially make the encounter a CR +1 for the ambush factor, depending on the starting CR and the level of the party.
Q3 - everyone has it right. Lightning Bolt is an area effect, and every creature in the area is subject to its effects.
Q4 - generally for area effects you just want to roll once for damage. Otherwise you can bog the game down rolling individually when a spell affects multiple targets (a fireball against 15 skeletons for instance). Consider that the single roll is the 'power level' of that particular casting of the spell; some spells come out stronger than others.
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I am rusty at running - but have a complex scenario, and need some help.
Players coming down a 5' wide straight corridor (single file), door about 40' way. On floor is an Alarm spell cast by the caster down that hall on the other side of a door. There is trash/junk on the floors which slows the party's movement thru that narrow tunnel.
Q1 - does the Rogue in the group get a "passive" attempt to "see" the alarm? Can he even disable it if he does see it?
Q2 - if the alarm spell triggers, can the enemy mage (since he knows for certain someone is approaching) and has "time" - open the door and cast a lightning bolt before the players can act ? Exactly when is initiative rolled in this case?
Q3 - lightning bolt. My players insist that a lightning bolt "grounds" on the first thing (player or monster) it hits. I assume it would continue down the line and hit more things - is it a straight line hitting multiple things...
Q4 - Beyond saving throws, Damage - is each player's damage rolled separately or does the bold do a "constant dam" and the saving throw rolls just affect that "consistent" damage?
Any help appreciated.
Q1 - The rogue can take a rogue talent called trap spotter (pg. 69 of CRB). This allows him/her an automatic attempt to see the trap without having to specifically state that they are searching.
Q2 - Simple answer, no. A mage can have a surprise round if warned by the alarm spell. But, as per pg. 178 of the CRB, a character with surprise only gets a standard or move action in the surprise round. What you stated is illegal, as it takes a move action to open the door (pg. 183 of CRB), a five foot step to get into the corridor, and a standard action to cast lightning bolt. The only way a wizard could get this move off would be to cast a quickened lightning bolt using the Quicken Spell metamagic feat.
Q3 - Already been answered by Normanak. Unless you have a house rule, all of the players are gonna eat a lightning bolt. Hope they have evasion.
Q4 - While I can't see anywhere that states you roll the damage once, I feel that the below description infers that the damage is only rolled once.
CRB pg. 305, Lightning Bolt
You release a powerful stroke of electrical energy that deals 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to each creature within its area.
That aside, rolling damage seperately for each person affected is very tedious and would slow down the game immensely, especially if 120 players (area of the spell) were affected. One roll, much simpler.
Bill
Is opening a door a move or a standard action?
Per PFRPG core, Table 8-2 (page 183), Open or Close a Door is a move action.
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Q1 - does the Rogue in the group get a "passive" attempt to "see" the alarm? Can he even disable it if he does see it?
First question here is whether the alarm is from just a casting of the alarm spell, or crafted as a trap*which has costs associated with that*.
If it's just the spell, then no rogue can spot/disable it, though a detect magic would bring it up.
If it's part of a trap, then the default action is the rogue either has to be actively searching for it, or about to trigger it. Any character about to trigger a trap gets a perception roll to notice said trap.
Rogues can pick up the trapfinder talent, allowing them to get automatic perception rolls against any trap that they come within 10 feet of. This can really speed up a dungeon crawl, since the rogue doesn't have to search every square one by one.
Q2 - if the alarm spell triggers, can the enemy mage (since he knows for certain someone is approaching) and has "time" - open the door and cast a lightning bolt before the players can act ? Exactly when is initiative rolled in this case?
The enemy mage goes into initiative mode instantly. Combat is initiated for him. The players may or may not go into initiative depending on whether they notice the alarm spell going off at all.
If the door is locked, he'll probably have to sped an action unlocking it. If it's unlocked, he could open it as a move action. Define what you have him doing in the room before the alarm goes off. If he's asleep, i.e. prone, he'll have to get up.
Standing up and moving to the door would be round one. Opening it and casting, or unlocking and opening it would be round two.
Q3 - lightning bolt. My players insist that a lightning bolt "grounds" on the first thing (player or monster) it hits. I assume it would continue down the line and hit more things - is it a straight line hitting multiple things...
Lightning bolt deals electrical damage, but it's magical in nature, and casting the spell doesn't create x volts of juice that then runs out. It creates a constantly recharging max of x volts blast that goes so far before the juice runs out. You know, if you want to argue it with your players. They'll be eating the damage up :)
Q4 - Beyond saving throws, Damage - is each player's damage rolled separately or does the bold do a "constant dam" and the saving throw rolls just affect that "consistent" damage?
Roll once, and apply the damage to each character or object it hits.
Personally, when the alarm spell went off, I'd have the enemy wizard stand up *if prone* and ready action to lightning bolt once the door opens. Depending on how initiative works out, this might even give him the chance to fire off two lightning bolts before the players can pile in and force him to switch to fireballs :D
The way I see it, the wizard initiates combat by opening the door. It is at that point that everyone rolls initiative. Since the PCs didn't expect his sudden arrival, the wizard gets a surprise round to himself, which he used to blast the PCs with a lightning bolt (which will likely hit them all in a hallway). If the wizard wins initiative (durned' diviners always being ready for anything!) then he can even cast a second spell and close the door before the PCs can really do anything about it.
I don't know that "casting through the door" work, because the door most likely blocks line-of-effect. Otherwise, he could cast blindly down the hall, as one assumes he has prepped this enough to know where to aim.
I believe the point of casting it through the door is that you cast it in such a way that it hits the door and assuming it does enough damage to blow through the door continues down the hallway (assuming you are familiar with the lay out of the place as you are casting alarm spells out there). That should be perfectly possible, though it is might not work if the caster is too low of level (or rolls really poorly) and the door stops the bolt right there, and if it does work you are going to be minus a door after wards which could lead to future security issues (and will in all most certainly forfeit your damage deposit).
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Your players are trying to pull a fast one with grounding at the frist character. You can roll damage once or roll it 5 times, whatever the players prefer but make them make their choice before you roll. I think the rules say roll once for damage and that's what most GMs do in any case.
As for the sequence of stuff... The wizard can do as many actions he wants to do before he opens the door but unless he has a way to open it without the characters seeing it opening he isn't getting any special advantage on initiative.
So the alarm spell goes off, the wizard self buffs, sets another trap, whatever he wants. Then he opens the door. The characters get a chance to notice the door opening, unless there is something blocking their vision, fog or whatever then they are more or less automatically noticing it.
Similarly if the players open a door it's unlikely they will get a surprise round. There are some times when I give surprise rounds in that situation but they are pretty rare.
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actually, I had a fun thought regarding this scenario :)
If you use a simple wooden door, then your door has a hardness of 5, and 10 hitpoints.
If your wizard fires his lightning bolt at the door, and deals 30 or more damage, then I'd say he destroys the door and the lightning bolt keeps going down the hall. Sounds like a great use for a maximized lightning bolt :)
It's definitely a fun visual for me :D
Q1 - does the Rogue in the group get a "passive" attempt to "see" the alarm? Can he even disable it if he does see it?
First question here is whether the alarm is from just a casting of the alarm spell, or crafted as a trap*which has costs associated with that*.
If it's just the spell, then no rogue can spot/disable it, though a detect magic would bring it up.
If it's part of a trap, then the default action is the rogue either has to be actively searching for it, or about to trigger it. Any character about to trigger a trap gets a perception roll to notice said trap.
Rogues can pick up the trapfinder talent, allowing them to get automatic perception rolls against any trap that they come within 10 feet of. This can really speed up a dungeon crawl, since the rogue doesn't have to search every square one by one.
* A successful Perception check (DC 25 + spell level) detects a magic trap before it goes off.
* Magic traps permit a saving throw in order to avoid the effect (DC 10 + spell level × 1.5).
* Magic traps may be disarmed by a character with the trapfinding class feature with a successful Disable Device skill check (DC 25 + spell level). Other characters have no chance to disarm a magic trap with a Disable Device check.
Magic traps are further divided into spell traps and magic device traps. Magic device traps initiate spell effects when activated, just as wands, rods, rings, and other magic items do. Creating a magic device trap requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat.
Spell traps are simply spells that themselves function as traps. Creating a spell trap requires the services of a character who can cast the needed spell or spells, who is usually either the character creating the trap or an NPC spellcaster hired for that purpose.
Alarm by itself is a magic trap under the category of spell traps. It can be seen by anyone with a high enough perpection, and it can be disabled by any class with the trapfinding ability.
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Hmm... I don't know that I agree with your evaluation of that Charender. Spells can be used to create magic traps.
Spell traps are simply spells that themselves function as traps. Separate from magic device traps.
However, under page 423 under designing a trap Magic Traps:
If a player character wants to design and construct a magic trap, he, or an ally, must have the Craft Wondrous item feat. In addition, he must be able to cast the spell or spells that the trap requires - or he must be able to hire an NPC to cast the spells for him.
That line about the npc is mirrored under spell traps.
And spell traps and magic device traps are combined under the heading Magic. "Magic traps are further divided into spell traps and magic device traps."
Then again, under Spell Trap Cost on 423, a spell trap has a cost only if the builder must hire an NPC spellcaster to cast it.
*sigh*
Well, without resolving that, lets move on to the next issue :/
Did you find a list of spells that function as traps by themselves somewhere?
I think there's an argument to be made over what constitutes a trap, and what doesn't. Alarm is used as a trap trigger, but I can't find an example in the book of it standing as a trap by itself.
I'm leaning towards interpreting a trap as anything that, if not avoided, could have an immediate, direct, and negative effect on a character without taking them into combat.
I just don't see the alarm spell as functioning by itself as a trap in that it doesn't directly affect the party in a negative manner. It might indirectly affect them by alerting the wizard that they're approaching.
The first example of what I'd see as a magic trap that I came across was a 2nd lvl druid spell. Fire Trap.
Actually, there it is. In the spell description on page 283, it specifically mentions that fire trap is a magic trap. So I'm confident now that, if a spell is a magic trap, it will be mentioned in the spells description.
Thoughts?
I agree with Magicdealer, all of the spells that count on their own as magic traps have it so noted in their spell description (fire trap, glyph of warding, all the symbols, spike stones et al) The only exception being sepia snake sigil which says that it is not detectable by normal observation.
Since alarm doesn't have that special not in its spell description, alarm can't be detected as a magic trap.
Hmm... I don't know that I agree with your evaluation of that Charender. Spells can be used to create magic traps.
Spell traps are simply spells that themselves function as traps. Separate from magic device traps.
However, under page 423 under designing a trap Magic Traps:
If a player character wants to design and construct a magic trap, he, or an ally, must have the Craft Wondrous item feat. In addition, he must be able to cast the spell or spells that the trap requires - or he must be able to hire an NPC to cast the spells for him.That line about the npc is mirrored under spell traps.
And spell traps and magic device traps are combined under the heading Magic. "Magic traps are further divided into spell traps and magic device traps."Then again, under Spell Trap Cost on 423, a spell trap has a cost only if the builder must hire an NPC spellcaster to cast it.
*sigh*
Well, without resolving that, lets move on to the next issue :/
Did you find a list of spells that function as traps by themselves somewhere?
I think there's an argument to be made over what constitutes a trap, and what doesn't. Alarm is used as a trap trigger, but I can't find an example in the book of it standing as a trap by itself.
I'm leaning towards interpreting a trap as anything that, if not avoided, could have an immediate, direct, and negative effect on a character without taking them into combat.
I just don't see the alarm spell as functioning by itself as a trap in that it doesn't directly affect the party in a negative manner. It might indirectly affect them by alerting the wizard that they're approaching.
The first example of what I'd see as a magic trap that I came across was a 2nd lvl druid spell. Fire Trap.
Actually, there it is. In the spell description on page 283, it specifically mentions that fire trap is a magic trap. So I'm confident now that, if a spell is a magic trap, it will be mentioned in the spells description.
Thoughts?
You are creating an artificial distinction that doesn't exist in the RAW. If I made a mechanical trap that rang an alarm bell for its effect, I think we would be in agreement that it was still a trap and followed all the rules for a mechanical trap.
There are 2 possibilities here.
1. Alarm is a spell trap, and follows all the normal rules for spell traps.
2. Alarm is not a spell trap and is something else entirely.
Lets follow number 2 to its conclusion.
First, if you go with that intepretation, then the only way to detect alarm is with detect magic. Symbol or fire trap can be detected with detect magic, detect traps, or seen by someone with a high enough perception skill. So alarm is harder to find than higher level spells.
Second, the only way to remove an alarm spell is with dispel magic. Meanwhile, symbols and fire traps can be dispelled or disarmed with a disable device check by someone with trapfinding. So, alarm is harder to disarm as well.
so, the alarm spell completely stops any non-magic user cold. Assassins, master thieves, and the like are completely unable to bypass a level 1 wizard spell. They can get around fire traps and symbol spells, but the great and mighty alarm spell stops them cold.
I think the second intepretation makes the alarm spell into something that is a lot stronger that is was meant to be.
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Of course, alarm doesn't deal any damage either. Any *master thieves* in a standard pathfinder setting should have a way to detect magic. Even then, if the *master thief* did set off the alarm, then his hide check should be masterful enough to conceal him :p
Besides, by the first interpretation, a magic trap is any spell you cast that you interpret to be a trap, as opposed to spells denoted by *magic trap* in their text.
Effectively, it's opening the door for a rogue to disable any magical effect with a duration greater than instantaneous. I think that's more powerful than allowing the alarm spell to function the way it does - without causing damage, easily dispellable, and set off by any tiny or larger creature.
I can totally see a *master thief* as carrying around a bag of tricks and tossing an animal out, then hiding and waiting to see who comes calling on the alarm.
Btw, *master thief* is a line used in a fantastic movie about d&d, where the *master thief* as he calls himself keeps saying that a *master thief* would never forget to do this, or would always be doing that, as he inches down a hallway trying to disable traps. In the end, he sends the barbarian down the hallway to eat the damage.
It's an especially entertaining movie :)
Does the text of the alarm spell make any difference?
Alarm creates a "subtle" ward on an area you select
I added quotes on subtle ward....I can not think of any other subtle wards in the game!
I tend to think the meaning of subtle implies that this ward is in some way (different from) unlike fire trap, symbols, ect there is very little spell energy to find and no trap to speak of......
I hope the assassins have something to get rid of any alarm spells....
That alarm is referred to as a ward it why I think it is a magic trap.
My group has always played that all wards are magic traps, and never thought twice about it.
I agree with Magicdealer, all of the spells that count on their own as magic traps have it so noted in their spell description (fire trap, glyph of warding, all the symbols, spike stones et al) The only exception being sepia snake sigil which says that it is not detectable by normal observation.Since alarm doesn't have that special not in its spell description, alarm can't be detected as a magic trap.
Oddly enough, sepia snake sigil has no note about it being disarmable disable device + trapfinding. Thus by your intepretation, it is not a magic trap in any way form of fashion.
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Seeing as how it doesn't have any listing as a magic trap in the text of the spell, I agree with you.
Explosive runes has the text about being a magic trap, so I'd expect the extra costs with the sigil, as well as the fact that it affects only one target to explain the extra *hidden sigil* snippet. Fitting that the sigil wouldn't have the magic trap text.
Seeing as how it doesn't have any listing as a magic trap in the text of the spell, I agree with you.
Explosive runes has the text about being a magic trap, so I'd expect the extra costs with the sigil, as well as the fact that it affects only one target to explain the extra *hidden sigil* snippet. Fitting that the sigil wouldn't have the magic trap text.
The thing about the sigil is that is has extra text about it not being detectable by normal means. That strikes me as a very intentional and deliberate, this is NOT a magic trap statement.
Alarm has nothing to say it isn't a trap, nor anything to say that it is.
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I think that if it wanted to say *this isn't a magic trap* then it would have said *this isn't a magic trap*.
I think what they did instead was include *this is a magic trap* to all the spells that can be used as a magic trap.
Then, for the sigil spell, it's fitting that it wouldn't say anything about being a magic trap. First, the fact you can't detect it by normal observation, and detect magic reveals only that the entire text is magical.
If it *were* a trap, you wouldn't be able to detect it anyhow. So even if they were considering adding the bit about *this is a magic trap*, that likely would be a good reason not to.
You know, I think it's one of those elements that is specific enough to include in the spell description, much like focuses and special components are listed. Its much easier to put a list together of spells that qualify as a *magic trap*, than it is to leave it up to general adjudication.
Fire Trap
Glyph of Warding
Snare
Spike Growth
Spike Stones
Symbol of Death
Symbol of Fear
Symbol of Insanity
Symbol of Pain
Symbol of Persuasion
Symbol of Sleep
Symbol of Stunning
Symbol of Weakness
Teleportation Circle
Huh. Just found more telling information.
On page 95 under disable device restriction:
Characters with the trapfinding ability can disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25+lvl of the spell used to create it. The spells fire trap, glyph of warding, symbol, and teleportation circle also create traps that a rogue can disarm with a successful disable device check. Spike growth and spike stones, however, create magic hazards against which disable device checks do not succeed. See the individual spell descriptions for details.
alarm is not a trap, so there is no need to say that it can't be found and removed with disable device... SSS is a trap... you read it and get zapped with a negative effect... thus if it is not detectable and disablable as such it needs to be called out that this is so.
Alarm isn't listed in the trap section as being a trap, nor is it designated a trap by its own description. It does not cause any harmful effects if triggered; in fact, it has no effect on creatures whatsoever. Nor have I ever seen it listed as a stand alone 'trap' in any adventure or module.
If Alarm is a trap, then I guess Dimensional Lock would be as well? What about Forbiddence? Hallow/Unhallow? Are those spells subject to being 'disabled' by a rogue? If not, then why are they different from Alarm?
Hallow/unhallow cannot triggered as far as I know and does not have any trigger effect.
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I have to confess that I've probably used too many magic traps, because my players now use 'Detect Magic' constantly. They pause, detect for auras, and only after that keep on moving. Rinse and repeat. If I make them roll concentration checks, they remind me that it's pointless; as orisons/cantrips they can use it at will (both the cleric and the wizard choose it as one of the three at-will spells). Maybe I'll need to introduce some kind of houseruled Perception checks for noticing magic traps, or have them come down with migraine from that intense, round-the-clock concentration?
Alarm isn't listed in the trap section as being a trap, nor is it designated a trap by its own description. It does not cause any harmful effects if triggered; in fact, it has no effect on creatures whatsoever. Nor have I ever seen it listed as a stand alone 'trap' in any adventure or module.
Damage dealing or harmful effects is the criteria for something being a trap or not?
So, If I had a mechanical tripwire that rang an alarm bell when tripped, it is not a mechanical trap, and the rogue cannot disarm it because it has no harmful effects?
If Alarm is a trap, then I guess Dimensional Lock would be as well? What about Forbiddence? Hallow/Unhallow? Are those spells subject to being 'disabled' by a rogue? If not, then why are they different from Alarm?
Dimensional Lock, Forbiddence, Hallow/Unhallow are not triggered effects.
My point is very simple. If there was a mechanical contraption that had the exact same effect as an alarm spell. It would be a mundane trap subject to all the rules covering mechanical traps.
Why is the alarm spell any different? Just because it doesn't have the magic text stating it is a trap doesn't make it not a trap. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
Can you give me any reason outside of the missing "ITS A TRAP" text that alarm shouldn't be treated like a spell trap?
How are we going to let the clacker be removed from the wizards mind via disable device.......
Can't compare the two they have very little in common....
How does a rogue disable a symbol of sleep spell? why can a rogue disable that and not a simple lowly alarm spell?
Once you accept that rogue are somehow able to disable traps that are purely magical in nature, you are in a wide open field. Maybe the rogue is breaking up the symbols of the spell so that is fails to trigger. Maybe that know of mundane materials(like lead powder) that will foil the traps detection abilities. That is entirely besides the point.
A trap is a triggered effect. Whether that effect is directly bad for the person who triggers it is irrelevant.
Alarm is a triggered effect.
Ergo, Alarm is a trap.
he wedges a sliver of a broken magic item (or a specially prepared clay, etc) into the symbolWait !!!
Now my Rogue has to start carrying Material Components !!!
How much do they cost? Where are the rules for this? Do I need one of those wizard multi-pouch things? But what if I run out? Do any traps require gems with a cost of 100 gp? But I like my gems !!!
*head spins*
:-(
R.
** spoiler omitted **
Perhaps in here....
Thieves' Tools: This kit contains lockpicks and other tools you need to use the Disable Device skill. Without these tools, you must use improvised tools, and you take a –2 circumstance penalty on Disable Device checks.
Thieves' Tools, Masterwork: This kit contains extra tools and tools of better make, which grant a +2 circumstance bonus on Disable Device checks.
Damage dealing or harmful effects is the criteria for something being a trap or not?
Yes it is.
From the CRB: "Traps are a common danger in dungeon environments." "All traps—mechanical or magical—have the following elements: CR, type, Perception DC, Disable Device DC, trigger, reset, and effect."
And from the description of Magical Traps:
"Magic: Many spells can be used to create dangerous traps. Unless the spell or item description states otherwise, assume the following to be true.
* A successful Perception check (DC 25 + spell level) detects a magic trap before it goes off.
* Magic traps permit a saving throw in order to avoid the effect (DC 10 + spell level × 1.5).
* Magic traps may be disarmed by a character with the trapfinding class feature with a successful Disable Device skill check (DC 25 + spell level). Other characters have no chance to disarm a magic trap with a Disable Device check."
Emphasis mine.
So, If I had a mechanical tripwire that rang an alarm bell when tripped, it is not a mechanical trap, and the rogue cannot disarm it because it has no harmful effects?
Its not a trap, in that it has no negative effects. I don't even think that counts as a 'trap' in real life, unless it triggered say some poison darts or a net or soemthing.
As with any mechanical contraption, your example trip wire can be damaged, destroyed, or separated into its component parts.
Dimensional Lock, Forbiddence, Hallow/Unhallow are not triggered effects.
Forbiddence deals damage to improperly aligned creatures that enter the area, and they receive a saving throw for half damage. Hallow/Unhallow can have spell effects placed into them that activates under certain conditions; some of these spell effects include negative effects that permit saving throws. Guards and Wards can have numerous parts that permit saving throws to avoid negative effects.
I'm not sure how you consider these effects to not be 'triggered' when you consider alarm to have a 'trigger' effect.
These fit the description of a Magical Trap far more so than does Alarm. If you wish to remain consistent, then these are subject to Disable Device if Alarm is.
Can you give me any reason outside of the missing "ITS A TRAP" text that alarm shouldn't be treated like a spell trap?
In addition to the fact that its not listed as a trap even though its listed as a useful component of a trap, its not a trap because it has no effect on any creature.
It is, plain and simple, a magical aura. Why? Because thats what it says it is. Thats what it does. Thats how it works.
Allowing rogues to perceive and disable spells that aren't identified as traps in effect gives rogues a free 'dispel magic' skill usable on any non-instantaneous magical area effect, as well as a transforming the Perception skill into a constant, passive 'detect magic' spell to notice such effects.
Damage dealing or harmful effects is the criteria for something being a trap or not?
Yes it is.
From the CRB: "Traps are a common danger in dungeon environments." "All traps—mechanical or magical—have the following elements: CR, type, Perception DC, Disable Device DC, trigger, reset, and effect."
Where does it say the effect must be harmful? Not to mention, an audible alarm attracting the attention of a powerful monster would be harmful. Alarm has a trigger, it reset automatically, and it has an effect(creates a ringing sound). CR would be 1, type is magical, perception DC is 25 + spell level = 26. Alarm meets all the requirements of a trap.
And from the description of Magical Traps:"Magic: Many spells can be used to create dangerous traps. Unless the spell or item description states otherwise, assume the following to be true.
* A successful Perception check (DC 25 + spell level) detects a magic trap before it goes off.
* Magic traps permit a saving throw in order to avoid the effect (DC 10 + spell level × 1.5).
* Magic traps may be disarmed by a character with the trapfinding class feature with a successful Disable Device skill check (DC 25 + spell level). Other characters have no chance to disarm a magic trap with a Disable Device check."Emphasis mine.
That first statement also implies that not all spell traps specifically state the perception DC, saving throw, or that they can be disarmed via the trapfinding class ability.
A level 1 party attracting the attention of a Tarrasque due to an alarm spell would be very dangerous...
These are general rules for spell traps "Unless the spell states otherwise". Specific spell traps may have exceptions to these rules. Alarm doesn't allow a saving throw, that is a specific exception.
So, If I had a mechanical tripwire that rang an alarm bell when tripped, it is not a mechanical trap, and the rogue cannot disarm it because it has no harmful effects?
Its not a trap, in that it has no negative effects. I don't even think that counts as a 'trap' in real life, unless it triggered say some poison darts or a net or soemthing.
But if is brings a horde of monsters down on you it is a trap?
As with any mechanical contraption, your example trip wire can be damaged, destroyed, or separated into its component parts.
As can magical traps, the only difference is that magic traps require the trapfinder class ability
Dimensional Lock, Forbiddence, Hallow/Unhallow are not triggered effects.
Forbiddence deals damage to improperly aligned creatures that enter the area, and they receive a saving throw for half damage. Hallow/Unhallow can have spell effects placed into them that activates under certain conditions; some of these spell effects include negative effects that permit saving throws. Guards and Wards can have numerous parts that permit saving throws to avoid negative effects.
Dimensional Anchor and Hallow/Unhallow are not a triggered effects. The effects are constant and ongoing. Creatures get a saving throw when they are first exposed to the effect, but the effect is always there. That is more like walking into a lava pit than setting off a trap.
Forbiddence could be considered a trap as well, because the damage effect goes off only once when you try to enter.
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I think this got overlooked, since no one's mentioned it yet :p
On page 95 under disable device restriction:
Characters with the trapfinding ability can disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25+lvl of the spell used to create it. The spells fire trap, glyph of warding, symbol, and teleportation circle also create traps that a rogue can disarm with a successful disable device check. Spike growth and spike stones, however, create magic hazards against which disable device checks do not succeed. See the individual spell descriptions for details.
It lists the spells that a rogue can disarm with a successful disable device check.
Alarm isn't listed. Therefore... :D
I think this got overlooked, since no one's mentioned it yet :p
On page 95 under disable device restriction:
Characters with the trapfinding ability can disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25+lvl of the spell used to create it. The spells fire trap, glyph of warding, symbol, and teleportation circle also create traps that a rogue can disarm with a successful disable device check. Spike growth and spike stones, however, create magic hazards against which disable device checks do not succeed. See the individual spell descriptions for details.
It lists the spells that a rogue can disarm with a successful disable device check.
Alarm isn't listed. Therefore... :D
So is that a definitive list or just a few examples? No one who creates any new spell for Pf can make any spell traps because they won't be on that list...
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I have to confess that I've probably used too many magic traps, because my players now use 'Detect Magic' constantly. They pause, detect for auras, and only after that keep on moving. Rinse and repeat. If I make them roll concentration checks, they remind me that it's pointless; as orisons/cantrips they can use it at will (both the cleric and the wizard choose it as one of the three at-will spells). Maybe I'll need to introduce some kind of houseruled Perception checks for noticing magic traps, or have them come down with migraine from that intense, round-the-clock concentration?
Magic Device traps can include spell effects. In addition to the spell effect of the trap, fireball, etc, I would think any magical trap builder worth his salt would include a magic aura spell to conceal the device's magical aura, making it undetectable by detect magic. At least my players don't get off that easy, not after 2nd level or so.