To make a long story short: 3-player party playing Savage Tide under yours truly as the GM. We've got a Paladin and a Monk ... and last session, the Warmage bit the dust.
In his place, we have a Rogue.
Basically, are these guys royally screwed? No arcane magic (not that the Warmage ever really cast much of anything, because he was paranoid about AoO for whatever reason).
They're all level 2. The Monk has imposed his own Vow of Poverty (not the feat, just RP) and carries an assload of healing potions instead of other possessions. The Paladin just got access to Lay on Hands, as well.
The way I see it, with all this offensive power and a couple sources of healing, they might be ok - the only thing to worry about is how many actions they get (spending a possible attack action on using a potion or something) which could lead to problems.
Thoughts? Should I start subbing scrolls/wands/tailored magic items into the prewritten treasure to give them some firepower?
Thanks in advance, everybody. Loving the game despite our myriad scheduling issues.
No... They won't.
Savage Tide can be tough sometimes. Neither Paladin nor Monks are what you call a good class (Monks are downright terrible). Not to mention when debuffs start falling or superbuffed monsters come at them, there will be no way to dispel that (and forget wands of Dispel Magic, they have terrible CL).
And you do need a dedicated healer or at least someone who can cast Heal on a regular basis.
So, yes, they terribly need a Wizard. Suggest to character that he makes a Mystic Theurge instead.
Not to mention they wouldn't last one round against a tougher boss, like Mother-of-All, Khala, Redfang (let alone Demogorgon) without some serous buffs.
As with anything, it can be done.
The work load will be on You though to start adjusting things downward quite abit, both to account for the fewer number of players for the modules and for the classes.
-S
When our group wandered through the adventure, we had a cleric and druid who were really powerful and an Elemental Savant (our wizard) who was also extremely powerful. (Using every source book we could get our hands on...)
We almost died every night. I can't imagine going through it with out any casters. But, I suppose it could be done.
Unless you plan to downscale on nearly everything, it will be an extremely difficult time for the party. First off, three characters instead of four the adventure is designed for is strike one against your group. Lack of spellcasters means that the group has no mook control and battlefield control. Strike two.
Higher level adventures in the AP make assumptions that the party has use of spells like fly, teleport, divination type abilities, etc. to deal with obstacles and problems of time and space. Those sections will be difficult for the group without those resources.
In short, unless the composition of the party changes, you will have to make adjustments in nearly every encounter to balance so they will not be overwhelmed.
Some suggestions are have the players run gestalt characters.
Or allow the characters to have a free Leadership feat and have cohorts fill in the void for party healer and battlefield control.
Good luck which ever way you go.
In this evening's play session, the Monk bit the dust thanks to a Rhagodessa in the Lotus Dragon guild. The player will be rolling up a Cleric - hallelujah! Healing, buffing, and blasting powers - but from what you guys are saying, this ain't enough.
The Paladin would leap at the chance to have free Leadership, I know.
So far, I haven't altered much except in tonight's game of the Lotus Dragon hideout - took out the Crucible and a couple extra sea caves, plus a few bandits. I don't mind adjusting down on the fly.
Ergh. If only more people around here wanted to play.
@ Erevis Cale: What is so bad about Paladins and especially Monks? I mean, I know the old adage "linear Fighters, quadratic Wizards" - is it more a case of "liner Melee, quadratic Caster" in this case?
And these guys aren't exactly optimizers, either. The Monk/Cleric player kind of is.
Ugh. Well, I'll make it work somehow, I suppose. Thanks, everyone - keep it coming if you have any tips. :)
Paladins are situational fighters. If you're fighting something that you can smite, or somethings where you can use your special mount, the paladin is about as good as a fighter.
If that's NOT true, the paladin is way behind the fighter, and that's not good enough when you're a person short.
Quick answer: Create an NPC, and have them join the group. Make it a sorceror or something easy to run, and your problems are solved.
@ Erevis Cale: What is so bad about Paladins and especially Monks? I mean, I know the old adage "linear Fighters, quadratic Wizards" - is it more a case of "liner Melee, quadratic Caster" in this case?
There's so much wrong with monks that I don't know where to start from. But here goes:
First of all, they need good 4/6 ability scores (str, dex, con, wis). On average or with point puy, they won't be able to have all, so one of those abilities will result in one (or more) of the following:
- if Str is dumped - no melee damage at all. Combined with the fact that they cannot bypass DR/good, makes it even worse. Not to mention that you won't be hitting much of anything, because you have a 3/4 BAB.
- if Dex is dumped - his AC will suffer, making him an easy target in combat.
- if Con is dumped - combined with the fact that he is an unarmored, frontline fighter with D8 HD... You figure out what hill happen.
- if Wis is dumped - again his AC will suffer but in this case also DCs for his abilities.
Next, there is NO SYNERGY at all between his abilities. He can move really fast yet Flurry requires a full-round action to use. The rest of his abilities are so silly and situational that anybody can buy their equivalent in items for small amout of gold.
His 'ultimte' ability is to get DR/Magic AT 20th LVL (where if you're fighting something with no magic weapons, something is oddly wrong) and Feather Fall ANY DISTANCE... If you're next to a wall.
One of the more praised abilities is Quivering Palm, which is a Save or Die ability that can be used... Once a week. Wizards could cast Finger of Death 4 levels ago and could do it multiple times a day and need only a TOUCH attack, whereas monk has to hit with his mediocre attack roll.
Spell Resistance - as usual, on PCs, this is a joke. At 13th lvl, when monks get this, he'll have SR 23. At that level, they'll be facing foes of CR 16 on a regular basis, so in best case scenario, a foe has about 30% of failing his CL check.
Wholeness of Body - You can heal 40 poins of damage per day at 20th lvl. For reference, Demogorgon does about 170 damage in a round, not counting Rot.
Timeless Body - how often does this come into play in regular campaigns?
Sure, they'll usually make their Saving Throws against spells and abilities, but with them representing so little a threat, I really wonder who'd waste an action trying to kill him.
To sum up - Monks have low HD, low BAB, low AC, no ways to bypass DR or deal decent amounts of dmg and have no other source of extra damage , no worthwile abilities that can't be replicated with low-lvl wands and are a waste of space in a party.
And these guys aren't exactly optimizers, either. The Monk/Cleric player kind of is.
Ugh. Well, I'll make it work somehow, I suppose. Thanks, everyone - keep it coming if you have any tips. :)
As with any pre-printed adventure, you know your players far better than the writers ever will. They do what they can to accommodate most groups, but in the end it comes down to the DM tweaking things to work for their players.
Erevis's rant aside, the choice ultimately comes down to your players. If they want to play a Monk despite "how much they suck" that's their choice. As the DM, the responsibility really falls on you to adjust the game accordingly - so that it's fun and challenging, but not impossible for your party given whatever composition they may have. That's the DM's job, IMO.
It's the adage every good DM should live by: "Players play what they want and what they think they will enjoy. I will do the work of making it work."
That said. STAP seems to be written - especially in the middle and later chapters - with a well-optimized party in mind. If your players are not good optimizers, then much of the campaign will probably need to be slightly toned down. If they are extremely good optimizers (such as a handful of mine) things might need to be tuned up. Your group sounds like it falls firmly under the first heading.
Removing some of the deadlier encounters in the LD Guildhall was probably a good start. Rowyn and Gut Tugger should be challenging but not impossible, but if you still think they're going to be too much you can always knock off a level from GT without hurting him too much. (Probably don't want to weaken Rowyn TOO much if at all, as she's supposed to get out alive if at all possible and come back to harass the party in Chapter 3.)
Feel free to post here if you need suggestions as to where to tone things down in future chapters, most of us would be happy to help. :)
If they start to feel a bit short of some resource, let them figure it out for themselves and hire someone to fill it. Be sure to drop hints or directly tell them that you'd allow some hiring if they feel they need the support.
I'd consider allowing them each a cohort without requiring the leadership feat, frankly. The mods aren't easy as written but I don't think they're impossible either. Having a secondary character along as a cohort also gives you a way to have another character waiting to be taken over as a new PC if one of the primaries bites the dust. This can be particularly useful once out at sea.
You could consider introducing one of the characters of the Sea Wyvern a bit early and befriend the PCs. He or she could tag along with the group.
Just add levels.
Seriously, if a scenario is written for an optimized party of four at level 5, you can play it with a sub-optimized party of three at, say , level 8. That, and allow them to rest at the drop of a hat.
And paladin should work very well in Savage Tide - not many things in there that are not evil. Of course, he will want to rest after every fight as the number of smites the paladin gets are a laugh.
Knight of the Chalice would fit very well in Savage Tide (since almost everythin is an evil outsider), so you might suggest that. Anyway, isn't there an Extra Smite feat?
Knight of the Chalice would fit very well in Savage Tide (since almost everythin is an evil outsider), so you might suggest that. Anyway, isn't there an Extra Smite feat?
Depends on whether or not the GM is running a 3.5x game or a Pathfinder game - with the latter depending upon the GM's house rules permit taking that feat. "By the book" ... nope.
Paladin will do well in Savage Tide under Pathfinder though, very well.
Thanks a billion, everyone, great suggestions all around.
I am reluctant to add any form of DMPC to the game - I am already running everyone in the world, save three. The last thing I need, while bogged down in maps and tables and index cards, is another slot in the initiative roster.
As I have said earlier we are now:
Cleric, Rogue, Paladin
The guy now playing Cleric has his act together. Got all his buffs and whatnot on index cards, neatly summed up with a few lines, doing his best to make everything flow well for the group as a whole. Knows that magic != blasting and has spells planned accordingly. Also has half the freakin' rulebook in his head. Lifesaver.
Tomorrow we begin "Bullywug Gambit". I have always been weak on foreshadowing, but I'll do my best to emphasize the Sea Wyvern and play up the freaky mutant pirates. I am probably going to strip down the section with the Worm Festival.
As Orthos said, my job as DM is to let people play what they want and shape the world to them - so I am not super worried about anything. I just want to avoid everyone rolling a new PC every session - in my world, you die if you screw up, but not if you play a "poor" class or the "wrong" class. Definitely not.
Now if only I can get the Rogue to remember his special move! Healing is a go, but sneak-attack may as well be "fondly regard creation" for all the good it's done so far (read: zero uses).
G'night everyone! Roll loads of twenties. Looking forward to roleplaying the Pirate Captain tomorrow - Irish accent, here I come!
Don't know how far ahead you have read in the AP, but Diplomacy and other skills are used an awful lot throughout, in particular the end of Kraken's Cove. Assuming from the above comment, is the Rogue more of skills/face character than a backstabber? If so, maybe let him know that skill points in Diplomacy are important. I literally took every chance I could prior to starting the STAP to warn my players that there were many opportunities for skill usage, Diplomacy in particular...
I would encourage them to take Leadership, a sorcerer or wizard cohort would be useful, or perhaps a bard cohort, a little offensive magic, some more buffs, and plenty of Diplomacy. A Cleric cohort, to act as a heal-bot, will free up the PC cleric to better use his other spells. There will be a lot of healing required!
They could also get similar assistance from hirelings of those same classes, even hiring a Fighter if they think they need more tanking.
And don't run them yourself, let the players run the helper toons.
Regarding the mid-game, when they hit the IoD, if they still don't have teleport, I have an alternate solution. I found an article in Dragon describing a new wondrous item that teleports objects to and from two 'attuned' locations. So when the party needs to buy/sell, they use this device to transport the goods to the other end. I gave Lavinia one of these so that the party could transports a small amount of goods to and from Sasserine thru Lavinia and her trusted allies back home.
Take this with a grain of salt. Were I in your shoes, I would provide access to hirelings, trying to get the Bard involved (he wants to follow the group to write his Epic), and a heal-bot or arcane cohort of some sort.
Have fun!