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I've been playing D&D for about 8 years now (since 3.0 came out), and have been running the game with Initiative. Lately though as I've been introducing new players to the game I've been noticing more and more that Initiative gets in the way of the narrative flow of the game. No matter how many tricks I use, initiative pulls players out of the moment.
Example:
"Within the room is a pair of wolves, they have yet to take notice of you."
Fighter: "I charge into the room."
Roll Initiative.
Rogue 23,
Wizard 19
Cleric 15
Wolves 10
Fighter 9
Ugh..."
So I'm thinking of a couple of ways to get around the problem.
1 - Marching Order initiative.
Essentially the players get to act in Marching order (So usually tanks, mages, archers)
2 - Decided order
Players decide who goes first ahead of time (this is similar to Marching Order initiative but not dependent on position).
3 - First in best dressed
Players call out actions as they are decided, I write down who did what and in which order and initiative stays that way.
What do you guys think?
Initiative, good or bad?
Which of the three house-rules should I implement?
Anyone else have good suggestions?
Most of this can be handled by simply delaying. As long as the party is somewhat coordinated, the "Marching Order Initiative" can be taken care of by delaying to the initiative behind the guy in front of you. "Decided Order" can again be taken care of the same way. Number 3 is a little wonky because it comes down to GM fiat which is a dangerous place to go in combat. Some players can handle it, but others will call foul.
On a side note, if the wolves don't notice you then it's surprise round time.
Example:
"Within the room is a pair of wolves, they have yet to take notice of you."
Fighter: "I charge into the room."
Roll Initiative.
Rogue 23,
Wizard 19
Cleric 15
Wolves 10
Fighter 9Ugh..."
I interpret this example as follows:
The party notices the wolves, but the wolves don't notice the party= Surprise Round! Only the party gets to act.
Fighter PC's player shouts: "I charge into the room."
GM asks: "What is everyone else doing?"
Other players explain what they do in the surprise round.
GM says: "Okay, roll for initiative."
The surprise round commences.
In other words, if the rogue and the fighter PCs both notice the wolves, and the Rogue consistently "reacts" faster than the fighter (i.e. he has a higher initiative modifier), then it shouldn't be a surprise that he often goes before the fighter, even if the fighter's player shouts "I charge into the room!"
Also, even though the wolves have higher initiative over the fighter, they wouldn't act in the surprise round, so the fighter would still act before them.
This is a typical example of the dichotomy between the player — i.e. the flesh and blood person who play the game, and its avatar in game world.
Pathfinder and other role-playing games always have actions decided upon a roll of the dice. Even if one person say "My character does that!" first, it would not necessarily translate in the "game world" as such. This is where we tend to forget that in these circumstances, we got to role play according to the dice rolls, and not the opposite.
Problem is, this is not always true, not always linear. Sometimes, we got to make decision and behave more akin to our true self than that of the character we represent. So because of these back and forth switches between us and them (characters), we are confusing what happens for real in the game world and what would happen if we were there for real.
Let's not forget that Pathfinder (and D&D, and all other related games) isn't the reality, it is a mechanical and tactical representation of it. And as such, we got to play by its rules sometimes.
So in the fighter example, while the player would have reacted right away, the dices had decided otherwise – the character (fighter) might have instead looked somewhere else, or hesitated just long enough to have stand still a few seconds while the other characters reacted quicker.
So as a short answer — I am comfortable accepting the quirkiness of initiative based on dice results, not on players decisions.
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I see a lot of good points raised. Still the problem of "flow" remains. There's a part of me that believes the first thing someone should roll after declaring: "I charge into the room!" is an attack roll. Pausing for initiative cuts the excitement of the moment, and disconnects players from their avatars. Strictly speaking initiative matters only for the first round of combat, after that it's mostly: PCs go, DM goes.
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Strictly speaking initiative matters only for the first round of combat, after that it's mostly: PCs go, DM goes.
That's easy to fix, roll initiative for monsters separately. I do it all the time, though I've got a nice initiative tracker.
It's not a video game, it's more like a game of chess or a skirmish level wargame so it flows like those games flow.
However you have to remember that it's your game and you can make it work however you want too. Just keep it fair for the monsters and the PCs.
I see a lot of good points raised. Still the problem of "flow" remains. There's a part of me that believes the first thing someone should roll after declaring: "I charge into the room!" is an attack roll. Pausing for initiative cuts the excitement of the moment, and disconnects players from their avatars. Strictly speaking initiative matters only for the first round of combat, after that it's mostly: PCs go, DM goes.
I really only see a problem with your POV if the actions of other PCs interfere with the charging fighter in your example. For instance, if the wizard casts an offensive spell that kills the wolves. In all likely-hood, the other PCs you mentioned aren't going to charge in there as well for instance. It sounds to me like your quandary is: when does the rules-light story side of the game stop and the rules-intensive mechanics side of the game begin?
As an idea, if you want to add an in-game effect to a quick player's reaction (the fighter in this instance), maybe give +4 bonus to initiative to a player that has such a quick reaction as you lay out the scene before them. I'd only do this though if you know that the players aren't going to start going all Jeopardy on you with their hands on the buzzer itching to answer the question first.
Strictly speaking initiative matters only for the first round of combat, after that it's mostly: PCs go, DM goes.That's easy to fix, roll initiative for monsters separately. I do it all the time, though I've got a nice initiative tracker.
It's not a video game, it's more like a game of chess or a skirmish level wargame so it flows like those games flow.
However you have to remember that it's your game and you can make it work however you want too. Just keep it fair for the monsters and the PCs.
I myself have gone back to the older method of rolling for initiative each round. We find it a bit more exciting, as I ask players to state their intentions at the beginning of the new round, so they have an idea of what they want to do, and then we role for initiative to see who gets to go first. No one's locked into their intention of course, but an immediate benefit I've noticed is it keeps all players engaged at once instead of waiting for their turn. The initiative tracker makes it easy to work from round-to-round.
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I see a lot of good points raised. Still the problem of "flow" remains. There's a part of me that believes the first thing someone should roll after declaring: "I charge into the room!" is an attack roll. Pausing for initiative cuts the excitement of the moment, and disconnects players from their avatars. Strictly speaking initiative matters only for the first round of combat, after that it's mostly: PCs go, DM goes.
To help alleviate the flow issue I call for initiative at the beginning of the session (which will apply to the first combat) and then after combat (to apply to the next combat they might initiate). That way, when combat begins, they launch right into it and do not delay to roll the dice. With all that looting and talking after a combat, rolling a few dice for initiative doesn't break the narrative as much.
This isn't perfect, certainly, but it works fairly well. And it took out any issue I had with flow.
honestly for me at least the flow gets broken anyway at the start of a combat. Usually i need to lay out a few things (like put enemy stats spread out in front of me), put some stuff on the board (monsters/terrain) and get myself ready, so the players writing down their initiatives on the white board gives me a few seconds to get myself ready for the combat. So as much as i'd like to just jump in, i think i need the few seconds it takes to determine order in the first place.
The problem i see with removing it is, what if 3 people in the party want to charge the enemy? Do you put the person who says it first first?
It's questions like kolokotroni's that get me thinking. In that situation i suppose there's no choice but to roll. I guess the difference is making it the exception rather than the rule.
if a player is particularly quick thinking or does something that makes me think they should have an advantage in going first, i often give them the ole' +2 -2. IE Fighter goes "I charge into the room" if i am convinced he is acting with 'initiative' i'll give him a +2 on his initiative roll. The quick footed rogue behind the door might still move faster then him, but his dashing charge gave him an initial advantage.
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The problem I see with allowing players to do things when they yell them at you is that some players are much louder and much quicker to yell than others, which means that even though he hit his character's DEX into the floor, because he shouts very quickly at the DM at the start of every battle, he gets to go first.
Example:
"Within the room is a pair of wolves, they have yet to take notice of you."
Fighter: "I charge into the room."
Roll Initiative.
Rogue 23,
Wizard 19
Cleric 15
Wolves 10
Fighter 9Ugh..."
If there was a surprise round at first, it would solve the problem of having the wolves act before even the charging dude.
If you don't want to bother with surprise rounds, I would recommend going this way : if someone calls for such a manoeuver before the fight was even ignited, I would indeed roll initiative for everyone else, and simply allow the charging fighter to act the very first.
There are a couple things I might suggest, and I'm dsurprised no one else has:
I've been playing D&D for about 8 years now (since 3.0 came out), and have been running the game with Initiative. Lately though as I've been introducing new players to the game I've been noticing more and more that Initiative gets in the way of the narrative flow of the game. No matter how many tricks I use, initiative pulls players out of the moment.
Example:
"Within the room is a pair of wolves, they have yet to take notice of you."
Fighter: "I charge into the room."
Roll Initiative.
Rogue 23,
Wizard 19
Cleric 15
Wolves 10
Fighter 9Ugh..."
Firt of all, it seems that everyone's assuming that the whole party takes notice of the wolves. I'd suggest that the accuracy of that assumption be tested before proceeding. This is where things like Perception rolls, marching order, and terrain come into play. If the party is proceeding through dense foliage, or boulders, or in a dungeon, and the fighter is on point, it's very possible, perhaps even likely, that he is the only one to see the wolves during that moment of first contact, and so is the only character on EITHER side of the encounter who gets to act during the surprise round. In fact, this is even MORE likely when you use individual intitiative and NOT group Init. + Marching Order.
Firt of all, it seems that everyone's assuming that the whole party takes notice of the wolves. I'd suggest that the accuracy of that assumption be tested before proceeding. This is where things like Perception rolls, marching order, and terrain come into play. If the party is proceeding through dense foliage, or boulders, or in a dungeon, and the fighter is on point, it's very possible, perhaps even likely, that he is the only one to see the wolves during that moment of first contact, and so is the only character on EITHER side of the encounter who gets to act during the surprise round. In fact, this is even MORE likely when you use individual intitiative and NOT group Init. + Marching Order.
+1. Further, I would say that noone else in the party goes before the fighter because they're reacting to *his* action to charge in (rather than figuring out a better plan). Just consider everyone to have delayed to the fighter's speed in the first round, and then roll initiative for the fight as normal *after* the surprise round.
What I've done in the past with initiative as well as other hidden rolls is I have the players roll a list of 20 D20 roll form. So when initiative comes up I take the first number in order scratch it off and use it for initiative. Since I have sheet of skill bonuses and initiative I just add the number on and have an initiative order ready to go. As well I put a list D20 rolls for encounters so when the time comes no rolling and the narrative just continues uninterrupted.
The last few posts are missing the point I think. If the surprise round is used, and perception rules are used, then the problem will be solved before the GM even gives the description above. The GM will know before hand who is aware of the opponent and who is not. A little common sense also lends itself to the situation. Was the fighter the only one who could possibly notice the wolves? We don't know from the info given. That is the GM's determination. If "you" meant the fighter only, why is everyone else acting? If "you" meant the party (which is what I assumed in my interpretation above), then it's no surprise that other members are going before the fighter. If you start the order of battle based on who shouts what first, that's a possible recipe for confusion, and at the very least, diminishes the value of making a high Dex character, or taking the Improved Initiative feat, or a high Perception skill. Not that there's anything wrong with that; it is a nod toward role-play which has its own benefits.
Here's how we play. Even if everyone notices the wolves with spot checks ahead of time (as long as the wolves didn't notice the party) the fighter gets a surprise round which is a single standard action. Everyone else’s is forfeited due to the fighter's over eagerness, stupidity and/or general lack of teamwork. This usually gets the fighter scolded by his friends after the battle is over.
Even so, all the fighter gets to do is run up to the wolves. If he fails to win initiative against the wolves, they still might hit and trip him before he is able to swing his weapon. This just means that the fighter got the initial jump on his enemies. It doesn’t mean that they have no chance to react in time to thwart his attempt. If he does beat the wolves’ initiative then he gains the advantage of getting a full attack on them.
My method is to give preferrence to those who react first on the gaming table, unless I notice more than one player was trying to say something simultaneously.
In cases like the one you mention, my players don't usually wait for me to ask them what to do (sometimes this is good, sometimes not so good, but after 12 years playing with the same guys, I'm used to it), so the acting order of the first turn is more or less determined by the order in which they announce what they do, with Initiative rolls usually being kept for the next turn of actions, as well as for those who are too far away.
It relies a lot on impressions and "first come, first serve", at least for the opening round, but it seems to work pretty well for us, mostly since we already know which players are usually going to be the ones reacting immediately and which ones are going to take some extra time to think their move.
It's questions like kolokotroni's that get me thinking. In that situation i suppose there's no choice but to roll. I guess the difference is making it the exception rather than the rule.
[hushed whisper]There is another way...[/hushed whisper]
Plenty of other games (not D&D) use things other than die rolls to determine who goes first. I too have felt your, "this interrupts the narrative flow" angst.
Try Highest Dex goes first. The dexterity of all monsters is known (or can be guessed). This way there are really no surprises and those with presumably the quickest reactions always go first.
Devise an Initiative Score. Make it a 1-10 ranking, or a 1-100 ranking or whatever. Assign everyone and everything an initiative score. You could adjust it for things like, heavy armor, reach, haste/speed/swiftness, or whatever.
On several occasions I have gone with a "party initiative" roll. The party rolls once and acts in concert. This gets them acting as one tactical unit and prohibits the "I wait till my initiative" lag and inattention that some players experience (and take advantage of).
Nothing to see here...
CJ
Yeah, all those methods are fine IMO. I'm just addressing it from a rules perspective, which I'll admit at times goes against common sense or the flow of the game session. This may be one of those moments when the GM simply decides in the interest of having fun… the fighter goes first due to his overeagerness. But I personally wouldn't make it the norm. Especially if you consider the GM plays the monsters and will never technically shout "I charge" before the PCs. (or if he does, it will seem very odd)
GM: "Within the room is a pair of wolves. They take notice of you… THEY CHARGE YOU!"
Fighter: "I charge into the… what? HEY!" :)
I'm often faced with the OP's scenario.
The thing you have to do is "unpack" the meaning of the roll. Chances are your fighter rolled low on initiative because he has a low dex, hasn't trained to react quickly (no imp.init.) and he's wearing armor of some sort. I would try to work these into my description of the start of combat. The roll itself represents the chaos of combat. People will feel better if they are offered a short interpretation of their low roll.
You should also try to use Perception before Initiative wherever possible to mitigate the swinginess of the roll.
I've considered more "advanced" initiative schemes, but they rarely do much to speed the game along. Likewise, no initiative system at all would just result in the most vocal player taking the most actions. I have a few smart-but-quiet folks in my party, and initiative offers a good chance for them to share the spotlight.
I usually handle it this way:
If a player blurts something out (like in the example above), I'll ask if anyone's going to do something else or to try to interfere - before initiative is rolled.
If not, then I have initialive rolls as normal, but start on the declaring player's initiative - in effect everyone delays until the fighter goes. If someone does want to do something, even if it interferes with the fighter, so be it - the fighter may end up not being able to charge.
After all, remember that just because one player blurts something out first, that doesn't necessarily subvert the rules. What if that fighter blurted out "I cast magic missile!" ... would you let them do that just because they blurted it out? It's really the same thing - the player's blurted out action doesn't invent a new rules system :)
Allow me to suggest a simple way that will play out the same way that 99% of well-played D&D combats play out, without any of the complicated.
Combat begins.
DM rolls for initiative. Asks: Who beat DC X on their initiative check?
Those guys go first, in whatever order they want.
Then DM goes.
Then party goes. First, anybody who is going to buff/debuff. Second, melee (least flexible in terms of who they can hit). Then, ranged.
The end. =)
Usually, good players do a bunch of delaying/init shuffling to make the above happen. I've found it's just easier to let it happen.
-Cross
Yeah, this is something I often do too. It's benefits are two-fold: It speeds up play, especially at high levels. It has more of a roleplay feel to it too. Oh, and it gets away from the disjointed actions that are created by turn-based initiative. (which is why I also roll for initiative every round)
The last few posts are missing the point I think. If the surprise round is used, and perception rules are used, then the problem will be solved before the GM even gives the description above. The GM will know before hand who is aware of the opponent and who is not. A little common sense also lends itself to the situation. Was the fighter the only one who could possibly notice the wolves? We don't know from the info given. That is the GM's determination. If "you" meant the fighter only, why is everyone else acting? If "you" meant the party (which is what I assumed in my interpretation above), then it's no surprise that other members are going before the fighter. If you start the order of battle based on who shouts what first, that's a possible recipe for confusion, and at the very least, diminishes the value of making a high Dex character, or taking the Improved Initiative feat, or a high Perception skill. Not that there's anything wrong with that; it is a nod toward role-play which has its own benefits.
I don't see how I'm missing the point. The point was, how do I prevent this from happening to the fighter all the time? As you yourself say, we don't KNOW from the information given which situation is the case here. My point was that up yto the point that I commented, everyone (yourself included, by your own admission) ASSUMED that "You" meant the party. I was merely suggesting that people, including the person who posted the original question, consider the idea that making that assumption lies at the root of the problem, and that there are tools available to a DM (perception, terrain, marching order) to undo that assumption and change the mechanics of the situation.
I'm often faced with the OP's scenario.
The thing you have to do is "unpack" the meaning of the roll. Chances are your fighter rolled low on initiative because he has a low dex, hasn't trained to react quickly (no imp.init.) and he's wearing armor of some sort. I would try to work these into my description of the start of combat. The roll itself represents the chaos of combat. People will feel better if they are offered a short interpretation of their low roll.
You should also try to use Perception before Initiative wherever possible to mitigate the swinginess of the roll.
I've considered more "advanced" initiative schemes, but they rarely do much to speed the game along. Likewise, no initiative system at all would just result in the most vocal player taking the most actions. I have a few smart-but-quiet folks in my party, and initiative offers a good chance for them to share the spotlight.
Yeah, we have a running joke at our table. Whenever someone rolls a 1 for initiative, we usually announce our roll in terms of our character is off doing something stupid. IE "I was distracted from combat because I was busy grooming in my pocket mirror" or something equally stupid.
Yeah, we have a running joke at our table. Whenever someone rolls a 1 for initiative, we usually announce our roll in terms of our character is off doing something stupid. IE "I was distracted from combat because I was busy grooming in my pocket mirror" or something equally stupid.
I call that "contemplating your navel".
I don't see how I'm missing the point. The point was, how do I prevent this from happening to the fighter all the time?
If the question is how to prevent the fighter from being upstaged when his is the player who blurted out his action first, I'd say some of it is up to the other players. While there are some advantages to simply unloading an offensive play when you have the highest initiative, players can forego immediate attacks by forming up behind the fighter and his substantial AC and let him spearhead the wedge. Yes, they end up delaying or holding or whatever, but playing D&D isn't just about stealing someone else's thunder or being first to fight - sometimes it's about working together for everybody's fun.
I don't see how I'm missing the point. The point was, how do I prevent this from happening to the fighter all the time? As you yourself say, we don't KNOW from the information given which situation is the case here. My point was that up yto the point that I commented, everyone (yourself included, by your own admission) ASSUMED that "You" meant the party. I was merely suggesting that people, including the person who posted the original question, consider the idea that making that assumption lies at the root of the problem, and that there are tools available to a DM (perception, terrain, marching order) to undo that assumption and change the mechanics of the situation.
Because the point is: Does initiative get in the way of the flow of the game? It doesn't matter if "you" meant fighter or the party, so it ultimately doesn't matter what my or other posters' assumptions were in addressing the point.
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@our table we sit in more or less the same spots. There are 3 people who typically win initiative due to high rolls and/or high dex + imp init. One sits to the left of the DM, the other to the right, and the third at the opposite end of the table from the DM (we have 6-7 players on average). When determining combat order actions start with the player who one and continues clockwise until combat is over. This ends up with a fair mix of the party acting first vs. bad guys and most everyone gets a fairly even chance to go early/late in the combat round.
Another thing to remember about initiative is that IIRC, techically all of the actions are occurring simultaneously within the round (more or less) but it isn't very productive for every PC/NPC/BBEG to scream actions at the same time. If the fighter is in the doorway and the rogue can't get past, he just delays his action til he can move in after the meatshield vacates the area.
Another way i've seen initiative handled successfully is just giving each player a 3x5 notecard and putting them in init order. I would also not hesitate to DM fiat that the fighter is going to go first in the surprise round due to him blocking the path to the baddies...make everyone hold actions until he has gone, then resume initiative in normal order next combat round.
The simplest answer is to make certain rolls BEFORE unveiling the scenario. For example, if the group is in marching order and the warrior is the first to pass by the door to the room on the left have the warrior and wolves roll perception checks, the winners get to go in the surprise round. However, if the room is at the end of the hall. Then everyone rolls perception checks and whoever rolls higher than the wolves(if any) go in the surprise round.
I know this is an just an example, but it works very well with the above mentioned tactic of having the story conform to the rolls. If the warrior loses the first thing he sees are wolves growling or charging at him. Otherwise, he gets his action without worrying about the rogue(who has yet to see the wolves) suddenly darting into the room before him. Let's face it, you accept a certain risk taking point. With that risk should come a perk.
Someone voiced a complaint about static initiative, and I agree. Rolling initiative every round not only added clarity to the sequence of events but also added a little chaos to combat, which SHOULD be chaotic.
My 2cp
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Example:
"Within the room is a pair of wolves, they have yet to take notice of you."
Fighter: "I charge into the room."
Roll Initiative.
Rogue 23,
Wizard 19
Cleric 15
Wolves 10
Fighter 9
This is a terrible example. For one, the wolves are unaware. You're fighter is a dumb ass and just blew a chance at a surprise round. He deserves to be at the bottom of the order.
Second, "I charge into the room" isn't the same as "I charge wolf 1." So the fighter bursts into the room, fine. Now the wolves are aware of him.
Lastly, you could let the Fighter get 5 or 10 feet before the wolves become aware of him, then roll initiative.
As for the topic: Does it get in the way?
I'd say yes. The dice always get in the way. People are trying to tell a story, and the dice are there to mess that story up so that it feels more like reality, where things rarely go the way you would like.
The rationale for eliminating initiative is totally valid... IF that's the kind of game you like to play/run. That same rationale can be extended to 90% of the rules in PRPG.
It's definitely not the "right" or "wrong" style of play, but it's worth thinking over. Do you want the dice messing up your story, or your characters actions? For me, the answer is "absolutely, yes, I want the dice to mess up the story".
Well, one point to address would be that blurting out "I charge into the room" is not proper game etiquette. As someone above pointed out combat is normally one of those times when narration gives way to mechanics. How smoothly that flows will be somewhat dependant on how the Dm runs the game and the player's understanding of such.
Here is how my game would flow based on the rules (making the assumption, in this case, that the entire party is aware of the wolves at the same time):
DM: "within the room is a pair of wolves, they have yet to take notice of you." <Implication that there is a potential surprise round for the party or an opportunity to avoid, explain this if someone at the table is new or slow with game rules>
Player 1: "I charge into the room!" <see this as a que to roll initiative, someone wants to take immediate action.>
DM: "Everyone roll initiative to begin the encounter with a surprise round." <This does stop the moment, but in my experience it gives the players a chance to decide such things as do we want to use the surprise round to attack, assess, or avoid the encounter. Ultimately the game plays better (IMHO) with a group this way.>
Rogue player (In23):"wolves, should we go around?"
Wizard, Cleric: "Yeah, lets take this opportunity to sneak around them."
Fighter PLayer: "I charge into the room"
DM: "Ok, are charging to attack the nearest wolf, or just to announce your fearsome presence in hopes of scaring them?"
Rogue, Wizard, Cleric: "Crap, guess we're fighting..."
Remember that even though the fighter didn't win initiative and hence didn't get to act first, everyone's actions (especially in a 'shortened' surprise round) are happening almost simultaneously. Everyone starts to discuss the situation and the fighter charges ahead regardless.
Another description might be the fighter tenses to charge and the rogue (having initiative) puts a hand on his shoulder quickly whispering, with quick murmers of agreement from the others, then the fighter charges in anyway.
D
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I've been noticing more and more that Initiative gets in the way of the narrative flow of the game. No matter how many tricks I use, initiative pulls players out of the moment.
Have every Initiative check be a 'take 10.' Everybody goes on 10 + their modifier, so the Fighter (with 13, for example) will known that he *always* goes after the Rogue (with 17), and be able to adjust his descriptions to suit that 'fact of life.'
I DMd a Gen Con tournament way back when that had unorthodox characters (all of the characters were golem-experiments), and decided to make the game play a little unorthodox as well. We did away with initiative rolls and allowed players to go in their preferred order (making sure to switch up who went first in various combats).
It worked very well for two groups of players, but the third group didn't care for it so much and wanted to go back to using rolls for initiative. Still, overall, it worked out well for the setting and the majority of the players.
Having said that, I have never used that method for our own games. We always use dice rolls for initiative and use a Paizo Combat Pad to keep track of who goes when (and what round we're in).
I don't remember where we orignally stole this concept, but prior to the current initiative mechanic, we just rolled a D6 for both sides, i.e. one player would roll and the DM. Once we decided which side went first, we just went around the table in a pre-arranged order. After both sides had their turn, we would roll initiative again.
We also allowed the players to rotate the duty of rolling a D6 each round.
This probably would not work in 3.5/4E just for the fact there are iniative advantages based on class or feats. But I miss the eb and flow of the D6 system, as to which side would go first; plus it was very simple to manage.
I've been playing D&D for about 8 years now (since 3.0 came out), and have been running the game with Initiative. Lately though as I've been introducing new players to the game I've been noticing more and more that Initiative gets in the way of the narrative flow of the game. No matter how many tricks I use, initiative pulls players out of the moment.
Example:
"Within the room is a pair of wolves, they have yet to take notice of you."
Fighter: "I charge into the room."
Roll Initiative.
Rogue 23,
Wizard 19
Cleric 15
Wolves 10
Fighter 9Ugh..."
This was handled wrong.
Who saw the wolves? Just the fighter? All the PCs? (really, was every PC crowding the doorway looking into the room?)
I will assume for a moment that only the fighter was actually looking in (everyone else was a bit farther down the hallway - even 5' down the hallway would have prevented them from seeing into the room and spotting the wolves). Now the fighter has a choice:
1. He can surprise everyone (even his companions) by charging the wolves. This sounds like exactly what he did in this example. So only the fighter acts in the surprise round.
2. He can back away quietly and tell his companions, then everyone can sneak into position and attack all at once. This way, the entire group of PCs can act in the surprise round.
In the first case, the DM should have resolved the fighter's charge and then asked for initiative rolls. This sounds exactly like what the OP wanted to happen, thereby keeping the initiative roll from "getting in the way".
In the second case, the group needs a signal. They can even pre-roll initiative and everyone delay's until the signal is given. Maybe the fighter's charge is the signal - then everyone goes in DEX order on that same initiative after the fighter's charge.
Obviously, in the second case, rolling initiative is not going to "get in the way" because everyone is sneaking into place and before that, everyone is just standing there making battle plans - perfect time for initiative rolls.
So I'm thinking of a couple of ways to get around the problem.
1 - Marching Order initiative.
Essentially the players get to act in Marching order (So usually tanks, mages, archers)
Playable but odd. In the example given, if only the fighter sees the wolves, why should the archer in the back of the group be any more or less able to get off an attack than the wolves (especially if the fighter ran directly up to a wolf and attacked it, putting himself in biting range where he is immediately and obviously seen by the wolves)?
Yes, maybe the archer reacts faster, but maybe not - hence the die rolls.
2 - Decided order
Players decide who goes first ahead of time (this is similar to Marching Order initiative but not dependent on position).
This works as I described it above in my second example where the party has surprise and sneaks into position. It presupposes that everyone is waiting for a signal, such as the fighter's charge. They could arrange more than one signal, such as waiting for the fighter's charge then waiting for the mage's spell and the archer's arrow and the rogue's sneak attack, in that order.
But if you're thinking about always doing it this way, then you're not solving your problem. Consider your own example. If it were my party, rogues, monks, and archers would probably go first, followed by mages, then clerics and fighters in clunky armor would go last. So your fighter who wants to charge into the room would still be last.
Besides, how much "last" would he be? Before or after the wolves? And once you've decided that all initiatives should be rogue, wizard, fighter, cleric, then where do you put the wolves? What about orcs? Drow? what about Will-o-Wisps (they have a +13 Init mod - fast, fast, fast!)?
3 - First in best dressed
Players call out actions as they are decided, I write down who did what and in which order and initiative stays that way.
Too chaotic for me. I wouldn't like it as a DM or as a player, but maybe your group would like it more.
It also defeats certain game mechanics. What if the guy who took Improved Initiative and has a 20 DEX has a quiet voice, or doesn't like to shout over everyone else so he patiently waits for all the other, louder, players to shout out their action. Suddenly the fastest player is always last...
What about the monsters - when do they get to shout out their actions? Do they always go first? Always last? DM's fiat?
What do you guys think?
Initiative, good or bad?
Which of the three house-rules should I implement?
Anyone else have good suggestions?
Initiative is good, but D&D/Pathfinder initiative is only mediocre-good. I prefer a more sophisticated system, but when I play D&D, I accept that this inadequate system is deliberately simplified to speed up the play and not "get in the way".
I wouldn't implement houserule #1 or #3. Houserule #2 is not a houserule at all because it's already built into the system, but only when one side has the surprise. If you're considering useing #2 all the time even without any surprise, then I would not favor it either.
honestly for me at least the flow gets broken anyway at the start of a combat. Usually i need to lay out a few things (like put enemy stats spread out in front of me), put some stuff on the board (monsters/terrain) and get myself ready, so the players writing down their initiatives on the white board gives me a few seconds to get myself ready for the combat. So as much as i'd like to just jump in, i think i need the few seconds it takes to determine order in the first place.
The problem i see with removing it is, what if 3 people in the party want to charge the enemy? Do you put the person who says it first first?
Reminds me of a time on my barbarian. He manages to spot the enemy before everyone else. Roar a warning, then charge. And he ended up going last.
Its really seems like a lot of DM's out there are forgetting that the players can have a surprise round TOO!
if the problem is the stopping to roll, you could always use a static initiative, just have it be 10 + whatever the character's initiative normally is... this'll continue to allow players that work to have a high initiative to go first, and if the players don't put any time into going first it's their own damn fault. everyone knows the order they are going to end up going in and can adjust tactics accordingly.
as to why doesn't the fighter automatically get to go first, hey some people are just slow to react. if your fighter is a slow heavy fighter he's going to react slowly.
as to why doesn't the fighter automatically get to go first, hey some people are just slow to react. if your fighter is a slow heavy fighter he's going to react slowly.I love that image
Fighter yells
"CCCCHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA............"Rogue attacks, hits
Wizards attacks hit,
one wolf dies
Ranger attacks hit
paladin attacks, hits
second wolf diesFighter finishes up......ARGE!"
LOL… that's good.