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Sleep? What's that?Just had this mental image. Instead of those mobiles that play baby music hanging over her crib, it will be miniature keyboards, mouses and monitors with the soft 'tak-tik-tak' of a keyboard as her lullaby :)
Well, yeah, she's sleeping, I'm too paranoid. I keep waking up every five minutes and compulsively checking on her.
:)
4e causes halitosis and acne. (Just to be on topic and all).
Dabbler wrote:
.... Role-playing is fundamentally about enacting a role. This role does not have to have anything to do with the game mechanics. It helps if the role that you envisage can be supported by the mechanics, but then it's up to you to find that way for some roles. Some roles are not supported by the mechanics because at the end of the day they use a trade-off system wherein factors are balanced against one another.
Roleplaying is a social activity, and deals with two competing reward mechanisms and a social contract.
The first reward mechanism is what the game system actually rewards. In every version of D&D, the road to character advancement supported by the mechanics is a bloody path of slaughtering things, looting their corpses, and looting their treasures.
The second reward mechanism is whatever your game master rewards. This may involve subtle, nuanced character growth. It may result in everyone putting maximum ranks in Perception to deal with the immortal elven pickpockets. It maybe subtle encouragement or discouragement of player behaviors.
The social contract is "Everyone gets their chance to be cool at what their character does."
You will get the play focus that exists in the overlap of those two reward mechanisms.
If one character's "cool thing" is rewarded mechanically, ad the other character's "cool thing" is not, eventually the GM compensates to keep everyone happy, or the group dissolves.
Everyone who says an RPG doesn't need mechanics to reward roleplaying, it just happens, is coming from a gaming table where the second reward mechanism and the social contract dominates. These people could probably run an RPG based of of Pride And Prejudice and Zombies shuffling all of the odd numbered pages from 4th Edition D&D and all of the even numbered pages of Amber Diceless and make it work.
And they're right - it isn't necessary. On the other hand, just because it isn't necessary doesn't mean it can't help.
Laundry lists of feats, classes, special abilities and spells aren't necessary either. For that matter, character growth shown as level progressions and improved hit points aren't necessary either.
All that's necessary is an awareness of the overlap of the two reward mechanisms and the social contract for your group.
Minimus strips down a lot of RPG mechanics to their bare essentials, and there's something in those four pages for anyone who plays Pathfinder.
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Nah, actually he's #2.I'm right there with you. And then I realized it was Cartigan - the most hard-core 4e apologist on these boards.
And, maybe I'm alone in this, but I didn't see any difference between your example and his. I thought you were making a point against 4e because your example made the mechanics sound even more intrusive than Matthew's post.Very hardcore.
How has #1 been lately? I closed that section of the boards a while back and kinda miss the guy. He and I had some cool discussions about the new game.
No, it is important.
No, it's not because it still ignores the question.
a character doesn't have the flexibility to choose the kinds of stunts and combat tricks and whatever they can do in combat (beyond a very tiny range of abilities available in the book mostly dictated by their class), one can see how 4e interferes with role playing.
Except it does have those, far more so than 3.X I would posit. The 4E guide pretty much explicitly says "do something cool and ask your DM for a DC for the skill check to do it." How is that different than "I use Tumble to roll through the Ogre's legs" or whatever else you can do that is limited by what rules are provided in the book?
I'm right there with you. And then I realized it was Cartigan - the most hard-core 4e apologist on these boards.
By "the most hardcore 4e apologist" you must mean "the only person outside the 4e boards who ACTUALLY PLAYS 4E." Perhaps we should make an excursion to one of the myriad forums that don't like Pathfinder and expound upon the benefits of Pathfinder and shortcomings of whatever they are playing?
How has #1 been lately? I closed that section of the boards a while back and kinda miss the guy. He and I had some cool discussions about the new game.Nah, actually he's #2.I'm right there with you. And then I realized it was Cartigan - the most hard-core 4e apologist on these boards.
And, maybe I'm alone in this, but I didn't see any difference between your example and his. I thought you were making a point against 4e because your example made the mechanics sound even more intrusive than Matthew's post.Very hardcore.
I haven't seen him. I figured he would have teleported in right about now... like a sixth sense. :P
Guys, guys, guys. If you unzip and pull it out, you'll realize that your Pathfinder phallus is just about the same size as your 4e phallus. But it's how you use it and not always about how big it is. In the meantime, allay your mid-life grognard-to-noob crisis and start shopping around for two-seater sports cars and make sure you request extra package space.
Carry on.
I was making a point on the 4e mechanics.
He completely ignored over Sneak Attack that they would've gotten in 4e as well (which, coincidentally, would have completely obviated the need for and probably outpaced the damage of a daily power by itself) and additionally belittled 4e by referencing encounter powers and dailies multiple times - the powers specifically limited in their use. The implication being that 4e is inherently limited more than 3.X because - HEY! look here!, these powers can only be used a limited number of times.
Right, so let's get on my ass for pointing out the guy behind the curtain.
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I do appreciate the fact that there seems to be a vocal support for us to produce 4th edition products, but that's simply not going to happen...{snip}Wha?! What? I must have missed those threads. Not to start a flame war but I'd like to lend my vocal support to Paizo NOT producing 4th edition products. Please keep your focus where it is!
As the great sage Porkins has oft been quoted "Stay on target..."
Regards,
~srWasn't that Red Leader?
** spoiler omitted **
I answered that on the first page! GAH, Are my posts invisible?
*Hangs head*
I never said that role playing games don't have conflict resolution systems, but having a conflict resolution system doesn't turn a game into a strategy board game. Rather, having a conflict resolution system which is so pervasive and controlling of the pace and plotting of the game as 4e's is is what turns a turns a game into a strategy board game.
If you have a conflict resolutions system, it helps to have a strategy to win the conflict. I have to agree, in 4e this is at the absolute core of the system.
When the conflict resolution system is so pervasive, extensive, inorganic, and controlling as 4e's is, it blocks the ability to immerse one's self in the game. It is quite difficult to do extensive book keeping and math while, at the same time, trying to turn off the part of the brain that thinks logically and allow one's self to be immersed into the experience.
I agree with you, this is my experience also, however our experience is subjective to us. I know some good RPers who have no problem playing in 4e, and enjoy it a great deal - it takes all sorts to make a world.
Ironically I had a debate on RPGnet with a 4e fan who could not get his head around the concept that somebody could understand 4e and not like it. The idea that such things were actually subjective were lost on him ...
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I haven't seen him. I figured he would have teleported in right about now... like a sixth sense. :P
Don't worry, he'll show up in a day or so, once the thread has cooled down and maybe moved into the archive, and then respond to each and every allegation made against 4e.
Does it make you feel better to compare your "watch me be mature and patronize the disagreement" package to our "having a disagreement" package?Guys, guys, guys. If you unzip and pull it out, you'll realize that your Pathfinder phallus is just about the same size as your 4e phallus. But it's how you use it and not always about how big it is. In the meantime, allay your mid-life grognard-to-noob crisis and start shopping around for two-seater sports cars and make sure you request extra package space.
Carry on.
Actually, yes. Especially when I'm standing several stories up and urinating all over it.
This argument is like three years old and some of us have moved on. It's just sad to watch people duke it out over scraps from the table. Surely there's more to a discussion from what the OP initiated other than 'my gamer moves are better than your gamer moves' 'nuh-huh' 'oh yeah' 'yeah' 'well pull it out and compare' 'as you do, i make an attack of opportunity and cleave it' 'oh yeah, but i have a surprise round' 'oh yeah? Hitler!'
Consider - you've got a daily power. That means you can do the stunt -once- per day.
I also have at least 2 at-will powers, at least 1 encounter power, and a myriad of things I can do that are granted by either skills or feats that may not be powers at all. And that's at first level. As you go up, you get more encounter powers and more daily powers, and you get utility powers which may be any one of the three.
What if you want to do it again?
You rest 8 hours? But that isn't the point is it. Being one of the biggest 4e haters on the board, you don't really care about any of the possible not limiting parts of 4e and are focusing solely on the most limited ability of all which may never be used in the day because it isn't needed.
Can you take a penalty on the to-hit or something in order to do it again? No. It doesn't matter what level you are, if you've got a daily power, then the game constrains you from doing anything about that.
Since we are being facetious.
Hey, I just burned my last spell of level X to teleport/shield myself/blow up things/save our asses, I can't do it again the rest of the day!Contrast to Pathfinder.
Let's!
You can do cleave all day long. You can do great cleave all day long.
Indeed you can.
Assuming you take the feats Power Attack, Cleave (and Great Cleve). Oh, and assuming you hit. Otherwise, they are rather useless or non-optional.You can use bluff and stealth to hide as often and whenever you like.
Hey, that's just like 4E! Where those are also skills and can be used whenever they need to be and not once a day at all like you are implying!
Don't worry, he'll show up in a day or so, once the thread has cooled down and maybe moved into the archive, and then respond to each and every allegation made against 4e.
I haven't seen him. I figured he would have teleported in right about now... like a sixth sense. :P
Astute observation.
Good point. IF we completely ignore the places where 4e constrains role playing options, then you are absolutely correct that it doesn't.referencing encounter powers and dailies multiple times - the powers specifically limited in their use. The implication being that 4e is inherently limited more than 3.X because - HEY! look here!, these powers can only be used a limited number of times.
Were you not just arguing 5 minutes ago that separating combat mechanics from roleplaying is bad? Encounters and dailies are explicitly combat actions. But hey, if you can make two contrary arguments to make your "point," don't let me stop you.
Cartigan just gets under my skin because he can't stand it that I say I don't like 4e.
I can't stand that you are constantly getting everything wrong and then subsequently use that to badmouth a game you OBVIOUSLY don't understand or play.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Cartigan just gets under my skin because he can't stand it that I say I don't like 4e. He feels the overwhelming need to come charging in like 4e's Champion. I wonder if, in his own head, he even hears the trumpets blaring as he strides onto the field.
Do android pots dream of electric kettles?
Ultimately, it's all subjective - it's a game, for crying out loud, the idea is to have fun and we all have fun in different ways. Some people like tea, some like coffee. There's absolutely no sense arguing with each other about which tastes better.
Godwinned!Hitler!
I'm waiting for der Bombenhagel.
Do android pots dream of electric kettles?
Cartigan just gets under my skin because he can't stand it that I say I don't like 4e. He feels the overwhelming need to come charging in like 4e's Champion. I wonder if, in his own head, he even hears the trumpets blaring as he strides onto the field.
Rather, are android pots and electric kettles both made of silicon?
I removed a couple posts with personal attacks.
Also, people, chill. I don't care if 4e killed your dog or is the best thing since sliced bread. You can argue about it somewhere else.
Ultimately, it's all subjective - it's a game, for crying out loud, the idea is to have fun and we all have fun in different ways. Some people like tea, some like coffee. There's absolutely no sense arguing with each other about which tastes better.
Thirty-seven? In a row?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Ultimately, it's all subjective - it's a game, for crying out loud, the idea is to have fun and we all have fun in different ways. Some people like tea, some like coffee. There's absolutely no sense arguing with each other about which tastes better.Thirty-seven? In a row?
Try not to [something something] on your way to the parking lot!
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Guys, guys, guys. If you unzip and pull it out, you'll realize that your Pathfinder phallus is just about the same size as your 4e phallus. But it's how you use it and not always about how big it is. In the meantime, allay your mid-life grognard-to-noob crisis and start shopping around for two-seater sports cars and make sure you request extra package space.
Carry on.
Actually my second wife got the 4e phallus in the divorce.
Try not to [something something] on your way to the parking lot!Ultimately, it's all subjective - it's a game, for crying out loud, the idea is to have fun and we all have fun in different ways. Some people like tea, some like coffee. There's absolutely no sense arguing with each other about which tastes better.Thirty-seven? In a row?
Drops cigarette, stops loitering, and casually proceeds to the parking lot.
I can't stand that you are constantly getting everything wrong and then subsequently use that to badmouth a game you OBVIOUSLY don't understand or play.
Don't take this the wrong way, but just because somebody doesn't like a game does not mean they don't understand it. It's the most common thing said by 4e lovers to those that don't like it: "You don't understand it!" While I cannot speak for LilithsThrall, I know I understand more than enough of the game to know I don't like it.
[indent]Me: "I find that the class system combined with using the same mechanic for each class makes me feel that I'm being offered every flavour of class I like as long as it's vanilla."
4e Lover: "Your saying every class is the same, and that is very obviously not true. You can make two fighters very differently, let alone a fighter and wizard."
Me: "I didn't say that they were the same, I said that the use of the same mechanic made me feel that the classes were over-similar -"
4e Lover: "You obviously know nothing about the game and don't understand it! Your statement that all classes are the same is proof that you fundamentally misunderstand the system, and you don't know what your talking about!"
[/indent]
I have had that said to me.
A lot.
You can understand 4e and still not like it. These things are subjective. Live with it.
Don't take this the wrong way, but just because somebody doesn't like a game does not mean they don't understand it.
Which is why I pointed out how LT repeatedly gets things wrong.
Like implying skill uses are daily powers and work nothing like skills previously worked.You can understand 4e and still not like it. These things are subjective. Live with it.
Chastise me for what I actually say and not for what you pretend I say in some sort of 4e player hating stupor. Live with that.
Your imaginary, and very unsubtly implied, me is being stupid. The mechanics are obviously similar. That is in fact the very point of 4e class design.
Also, all you Wedge fanboys should acknowledge the countless innocent contractors he helped kill on the Death Star I and II.
Clearly, you've never worked with a contractor... there are no 'innocents'. Wanna make an omlette, you gotta break a few eggs. :)
I answered that on the first page! GAH, Are my posts invisible?
*Hangs head*
Dear Twin,
Have you read my second post on Page 3... I had your back.
CAW!
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I answered that on the first page! GAH, Are my posts invisible?
*Hangs head*
Dear Twin,
Have you read my second post on Page 3... I had your back.
CAW!
Yeah, I did. I am just complaining about not being read at all as opposed to first.. lol. Happening all too often around these parts, but I did read it and complained anyway. It wasn't meant to be directed, just MM's post kind of pulled the trigger. One coconut to many for the Swallow.
Butchering Billy Joel (Hey, he's gotta be worth a lot of XP! Look how long he's been around!)
"It’s old school, Living World, 4th ed, Paizo led...It’s still D&D to me!"
Hey, how the hell are we gonna get this frikkin' piano out of a dungeon?