| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, but Taldane is Common and everyone starts with Common, so don't pick that one as a second language to Common. :-)
|
Random aside:
Anyways, it just annoyed me a bit about it. I almost felt it would be better if I was forced to take that point to get common instead, so that I could talk to other pathfinders. /rant
|
Random aside:
** spoiler omitted **
I am also playing a Qadrian and honestly assumed that I automatically knew the language, being as I didn't see anything in the PFS Guide that talked about it. Is that wrong? Did I miss it somewhere, because that seems very odd that I wouldn't know my native language.
|
|
And there are some modules where being able to speak/read those languages are important. Which I thought was very cool the first time I saw it, although none of the PCs had the particular language needed and no one had Linguistics. The final encounter was particularly had for them.Yes, I also thought that was neat. I was wondering whether I'd made a mistake spending my "favored class" bonus on a skill point to speak one of the regional languages instead of an extra hit point, when half way through my first module, the GM asked if anyone spoke that language. I love it when flavor matters. :)
I've had languages come up quite a bit, although I don't keep too much track of them. The latest one was in #29 when:
|
|
I am also playing a Qadrian and honestly assumed that I automatically knew the language, being as I didn't see anything in the PFS Guide that talked about it. Is that wrong? Did I miss it somewhere, because that seems very odd that I wouldn't know my native language.Random aside:
** spoiler omitted **
Seems odd to me too. But as far as I can tell, humans, per the Core Rulebook, only get common. Very sad :(
For the sake of ease of play, all Pathfinders in Pathfinder Society start speaking Common (as do they in the Core Rulebook). If you have a low Int score, then yes, you have to spend ranks in Linguistics to get your "native" tongue.
"Sake of ease" or not, i don't subscribe to the Common supremacy.
Having the common tongue be the norm is easy to understand, but giving it to everyone before native languages is going against the common sense, and worse than that, against roleplaying.
It is like giving Basic to all Star Wars characters, including wookies, ewoks and jawas.
While I'm not sure making Common not universal for PCs is a smart idea, I can't see the harm in granting free proficiency in regional languages to characters from those regions.
|
|
"Sake of ease" or not, i don't subscribe to the Common supremacy.
Having the common tongue be the norm is easy to understand, but giving it to everyone before native languages is going against the common sense, and worse than that, against roleplaying.
It is like giving Basic to all Star Wars characters, including wookies, ewoks and jawas.
Because nothing is more fun at the gaming table than watching that INT 8 barbarian, who's playing the character to a T, have to roll up another character because he's incapable of understanding anybody else at the table. Or in society play, not being able to participate without playing charades in the 4 hour time block.
In a game where people toss out fireballs, get cut down by frost giants with greatswords and live to tell the tale, and save the world from rampaging monsters, devils, and undead, I hardly think "common sense" or "realism" are required when designing how the cultures in that world work.
Besides, haven't you ever heard of Esperanto?
|
|
Because nothing is more fun at the gaming table than watching that INT 8 barbarian, who's playing the character to a T, have to roll up another character because he's incapable of understanding anybody else at the table. Or in society play, not being able to participate without playing charades in the 4 hour time block.
There is nothing keeping that Barbarian from learning a lauguage that would let them communicate with the party, even for a 4 hour game. And honestly, if they are playing that character to a "T", most wouldn't be able to understand them anyway. 4 Int is barely able to say short, direct phrases, right. Right. And they are not understanding at least 75% of what anyone else is speaking, even in Common.
In a game where people toss out fireballs, get cut down by frost giants with greatswords and live to tell the tale, and save the world from rampaging monsters, devils, and undead, I hardly think "common sense" or "realism" are required when designing how the cultures in that world work.
Why not? All of those things still exist within a realm that has natural laws, social differences, and what not still exist. The difference is that it is different from our world, but not at all mutually exclusive. In fact, without either Common Sense or Realism, there is no game. There is a DM telling a (very bad) story that makes absolute zero sense and is at most 0% relatable to the "players".
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to "smack you down", but what was suggested was that regional native languages be free, not that they replace Common. Imagine if Elves, Dwarves, Haflings, Gnomes, & Half-Orcs had to "buy" their racial languages. Wouldn't make much sense.
|
I am also playing a Qadrian and honestly assumed that I automatically knew the language, being as I didn't see anything in the PFS Guide that talked about it. Is that wrong? Did I miss it somewhere, because that seems very odd that I wouldn't know my native language.
Being Qadrian does NOT nessecarly mean that you're from Qadra. It means you support their goals above that of the other factions. In example my PC was actually born and raised in Absolom (though he does claim Osirion heritage though his grandfather).
|
Being Qadrian does NOT nessecarly mean that you're from Qadra. It means you support their goals above that of the other factions. In example my PC was actually born and raised in Absolom (though he does claim Osirion heritage though his grandfather).
I am also playing a Qadrian and honestly assumed that I automatically knew the language, being as I didn't see anything in the PFS Guide that talked about it. Is that wrong? Did I miss it somewhere, because that seems very odd that I wouldn't know my native language.
It's not 100% clear from the OP but I assumed he meant the RACE Qadrian and not the FACTION Qadiran.
Racially my character is Qadrian, but she was raised in Taldor and supports the Andoran faction. Oh, and she speaks Azlanti and Osirion, in addition to Common and Kelish. :)
|
|
There is nothing keeping that Barbarian from learning a lauguage that would let them communicate with the party, even for a 4 hour game. And honestly, if they are playing that character to a "T", most wouldn't be able to understand them anyway. 4 Int is barely able to say short, direct phrases, right. Right. And they are not understanding at least 75% of what anyone else is speaking, even in Common.
But the original comment revolved around society play and the "realism" of the common language. We have a four hour time block and a minimum INT of 7 (not 4). Prohibiting people from communicating may be fun in some scenarios and may make sense sometimes at your home gaming table, but does not make for good play in a 4 hour time block. I'd even argue that it doesn't make much fun at the home table either long term. That Barbarian can't read and can't speak their regional dialect, I'd say that's plenty of a roleplaying penalty.
Why not? All of those things still exist within a realm that has natural laws, social differences, and what not still exist. The difference is that it is different from our world, but not at all mutually exclusive. In fact, without either Common Sense or Realism, there is no game. There is a DM telling a (very bad) story that makes absolute zero sense and is at most 0% relatable to the "players".
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to "smack you down", but what was suggested was that regional native languages be free, not that they replace Common. Imagine if Elves, Dwarves, Haflings, Gnomes, & Half-Orcs had to "buy" their racial languages. Wouldn't make much sense.
Rather than re-hash the stack of rules in Pathfinder and Society Play that make little to no sense in 'real-life' terms (Loot Distribution in society play is a spectacular example), I think it's fair to say that there are plenty of liberties taken in the game. Heck, how many times as GM have you pulled the "Strange Ancient Magic is at work" as a reason for things happening card on your players? Certain things in game need to be the way they are for playability, and realism be damned if they make the game more fun. The comment I was calling out was the one which questioned the validity of common as a core language before the native tongues. This kind of comment has the underlying suggestion that PCs know only their native language unless their INT is high enough. Realistic? Probably. Makes sense at a society table? Not really.
|
|
argues for a free regonal language.
Sorry no disrespect but I'm voting against this. That's what the linguistic skill is for. one or two skill points thrown to this shouldn't be that much of a penalty to any player.
If you decided to stat dump your INT, then you choose to role play someone who has skill drawbacks. That's a choice the player made. He can ofset his drawbacks with skill purchaces. IMHO it can't be declared penalty as ther player could choose a more balanced build.
Characters in the society are world travelers who have to survive with ther wits. Players should build acordingly.
I am also playing a Qadrian and honestly assumed that I automatically knew the language, being as I didn't see anything in the PFS Guide that talked about it. Is that wrong? Did I miss it somewhere, because that seems very odd that I wouldn't know my native language.
Don't think of it as not being required to know your native tongue. Rather, think of it as being required to know Common as a prerequisite of joining the Pathfinder Society.
|
|
argues for a free regonal language.Okay I'm going to make myself perfectly clear.
I am not arguing for free regional languages. I am arguing for the usefulness of the common language for all characters over a regional language. This was in response to Seldriss' comments, nothing more.
Sorry if I misunderstood you, but I will stick by what I said.
|
Call me crazy, but would the Pathfinder Society invite members that didn't speak the usual language? That alone is a fine rationalization for the commonality of common.
That said, it might be a fun/funny roleplay opportunity for a low INT character when trying to interact with the rest of the party:
"Thag not good talk. Words hard."
|
|
I think the part that confuses everyone is that common is exactly what the term means - common. It is a universal language understood by all characters.
It is not like English, where it's my 1st language but someone from another countries 2nd language. Common is the 1st language of most Humanoid people.
The so called regional language might not even be used much in that region.
Just my opinion.
|
Common is the 1st language of most Humanoid people.
Hegemon! Spoken just like a typical Andoran traveler who expects people to speak his language where he goes, because it's "Common."
Seriously though, Common is Taldane and was spread by the Taldans when they conquered/colonized much of Avistan, where most of Pathfinder takes place so far. It is just a regional language that got really big. Other places do not speak it as a 1st language. There may be speakers of Common in Qadira or Tian, but it is not their 1st language. Having to pay 1 skill point to "buy" your native language if you are a low Int character from a non-Common speaking region is just a quirk of the Society rules.
|
|
I think the part that confuses everyone is that common is exactly what the term means - common. It is a universal language understood by all characters.
It is not like English, where it's my 1st language but someone from another countries 2nd language. Common is the 1st language of most Humanoid people.
The so called regional language might not even be used much in that region.
Just my opinion.
In most D&D worlds you would be correct. However if you look at the Campaign Setting, Common doesn't actually exist. In fact, there are technically two commons from what I understand in Golarion: Chelish and Taldane. In PFS they have chosen Taldane as the "common" given to people.
To be honest I don't really mind that Common is required, because it really is for things mentioned above, however it just irks my RP sense that I have to take a point for my native tongue and not the other way around. (Yes, I realize it's semantics and really to be honest useless, and I really hope Josh DOESN'T read this thread, cause nothing needs to be changed)
|
|
But the original comment revolved around society play and the "realism" of the common language. We have a four hour time block and a minimum INT of 7 (not 4). Prohibiting people from communicating may be fun in some scenarios and may make sense sometimes at your home gaming table, but does not make for good play in a 4 hour time block. I'd even argue that it doesn't make much fun at the home table either long term. That Barbarian can't read and can't speak their regional dialect, I'd say that's plenty of a roleplaying penalty.
Yah, sorry, I didn't mean this to cme off as so heavy handed. I could have sworn you said 4 Int, but I'm not sure where that came from, now. Even as I was writing it last night, isn'y the min 7 or 8?
Rather than re-hash the stack of rules in Pathfinder and Society Play that make little to no sense in 'real-life' terms (Loot Distribution in society play is a spectacular example), I think it's fair to say that there are plenty of liberties taken in the game.
I agree, that there are a lot of illogical and non-believable rules, but that is why I think that they should be cut down as much as possible. I think the difference is that in cases like this, there is no point whatsoever for the rule. Every single player would benefit from getting the national language for free, in addition to common and racial languages. The benefit is purely RP and fun, while the lack of it doesn't improve the game in any way. Both are equally balanced.
Heck, how many times as GM have you pulled the "Strange Ancient Magic is at work" as a reason for...
:) Never, I hate that crap as a player and a DM. If players can't do it, reasonably, then NPC can't either.
Wow, this thread went in a weird direction. I honestly never thought to myself, "Self, I plan on reading a thread today where people fight about Common" but, then again, this is the internet. ;-)
"Sake of ease" or not, i don't subscribe to the Common supremacy.
Having the common tongue be the norm is easy to understand, but giving it to everyone before native languages is going against the common sense, and worse than that, against roleplaying.
It is like giving Basic to all Star Wars characters, including wookies, ewoks and jawas.
By all means, do not subscribe to your so-called "Common supremacy" in your home game. I have no influence there, do what you what. In Pathfinder Society, I have a bit of influence, and my influence says, Common is spoken by all Pathfinders because no one wants to sit at the table with the guy who says, "I only speak Kelesh and in the next 4 hours of game play I will pretend I understand nothing unless it is spoken in Kelesh." Some folks might find that fun in a home game (I really wouldn't) but very few people are going to find that fun in a timed Org Play environment.
THAT SAID ...
Every one of you in PRPG get a lovely favored class bonus at level 1. Take it, spend it on a skill rank, and spend that skill rank in Linguistics. Now you start with Common and whatever local language you want.
Problem solved IMHO. :-)
|
|
All I want to know is when I get to meet someone at a table or in a mod that has the language "Sphinx" so that I can use the darned language that I had to have for my prestige class.
:D Honestly, I am glad I had to choose the language, it makes for very, very interesting character development, let alone PrC requirement. But it's a complete rarity. It's not exactly ... "common".
(Pun intended) ;)
|
|
All I want to know is when I get to meet someone at a table or in a mod that has the language "Sphinx" so that I can use the darned language that I had to have for my prestige class.
You should totally roleplay that out by always speaking in riddles. You know... at least then I'd have a good reason for ignoring you (like when you say things such as, "don't cast that web I'm going to charge" but I do it anyway). :)
Better yet, speak in iambic pentameter!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think
therefor
Iamb.
|
|
For the sake of ease of play, all Pathfinders in Pathfinder Society start speaking Common (as do they in the Core Rulebook). If you have a low Int score, then yes, you have to spend ranks in Linguistics to get your "native" tongue.
Correction: If you do not have an exceptional Int score!
It might seem a minor point, but for normal 10 Int Osirian, Qadiran, where-ever-from characters not to be able to speak their own native tongue is stupid.
When I say this it is not only concerning PFS, but PRPG as a whole.
If all races except human get common and their native/racial tongues automatically, so should humans.
I suggest human characters get their native language automatically in addition to Taldane, if their native language is not in fact Taldane.
|
It might seem a minor point, but for normal 10 Int Osirian, Qadiran, where-ever-from characters not to be able to speak their own native tongue is stupid.
When I say this it is not only concerning PFS, but PRPG as a whole.If all races except human get common and their native/racial tongues automatically, so should humans.
I suggest human characters get their native language automatically in addition to Taldane, if their native language is not in fact Taldane.
Calling this "Stupid" is somewhat inflamitory. You may have not intended it to be so, but remember that inflection and intent do not come though very well in thread-posting. Josh is a reasonable guy and I'm sure he has noted your suggestion. However, the ruling here is pretty clear. As you said, this may be more of a general PFRPG issue than a PFS concern. Perhaps this should be continued in the PF rules formum?
Besides, speaking historically, wouldn't Azlanti be considered somewhat common, having been the dominate culture? Many of the other languages may just be dialects derived from it. Some words and phrases may be different, but the core of the language could be similar enough to be understood cross-regionally.
|
|
Calling this "Stupid" is somewhat inflamitory. You may have not intended it to be so, but remember that inflection and intent do not come though very well in thread-posting. Josh is a reasonable guy and I'm sure he has noted your suggestion. However, the ruling here is pretty clear. As you said, this may be more of a general PFRPG issue than a PFS concern. Perhaps this should be continued in the PF rules formum?
Besides, speaking historically, wouldn't Azlanti be considered somewhat common, having been the dominate culture? Many of the other languages may just be dialects derived from it. Some words and phrases may be different, but the core of the language could be similar enough to be understood cross-regionally.
+1
And don't forget, as Josh has already indicated, if you really want that native language, you can spend your first bonus skill point for favored class on linguistics.
Correction: If you do not have an exceptional Int score!It might seem a minor point, but for normal 10 Int Osirian, Qadiran, where-ever-from characters not to be able to speak their own native tongue is stupid.
When I say this it is not only concerning PFS, but PRPG as a whole.If all races except human get common and their native/racial tongues automatically, so should humans.
I suggest human characters get their native language automatically in addition to Taldane, if their native language is not in fact Taldane.
But by the PRPG Core Book humans do get their native and Common, because the core book is setting neutral and the two are the same language for humans. Your argument would work better if you were referencing the Campaign Setting instead, since that is the setting book for Golarion, and that is where Paizo did not let humans get their local language as well as Common, if they were different. So maybe if enough people say something, then they might fix this in the new version of the Campaign Setting that comes out later this year.
Of course, if you really want to yell at the rules-making people, yell at the ones who updated D&D from 2nd edition to 3rd. I looked back and in 2nd all you needed was a 9 Int in order to know an extra language beyond your native one. That was then changed to getting extra languages based on your Int modifier bonus. Having a 12 Int and getting that extra language is not a big deal in a normal game, but I guess in a point-buy system like the PFS uses, it is a bit more of a pain.
|
|
I am not trying to be inflamatory in any way.
Stupid = Really does not make any sense whatsoever to me.
I think it is unfair that all races get an extra language aside from Common except humans. Especially since humans are much more dependant on their native tongue than many demihumans - namely those that live in human lands.
As for having humans pay for their native tongues: yeah, they can do that - but it really is just giving humans something with one hand and taking it away with the other.
My main intention was to point this out, which I have done now. I think it is an inconsistency in both PRPG and PFCS that deserves adressing. Particularly since it is so easily done.
I am not trying to be inflamatory in any way.
Stupid = Really does not make any sense whatsoever to me.
I think it is unfair that all races get an extra language aside from Common except humans. Especially since humans are much more dependant on their native tongue than many demihumans - namely those that live in human lands.
As for having humans pay for their native tongues: yeah, they can do that - but it really is just giving humans something with one hand and taking it away with the other.
My main intention was to point this out, which I have done now. I think it is an inconsistency in both PRPG and PFCS that deserves adressing. Particularly since it is so easily done.
After looking more at the Campaign Setting, I think you need to add half-elves and half-orcs in with humans for this issue, seeing as how in Golarion you have to pick either Common or Elven/Orcish as your starting language and not both.
I am not trying to be inflamatory in any way.
Stupid = Really does not make any sense whatsoever to me.
It makes sense to me that knowing Common is mandatory for Pathfinders. YMMV.
|
|
As for having humans pay for their native tongues: yeah, they can do that - but it really is just giving humans something with one hand and taking it away with the other.
I disagree. I look at it as another customizable feature. The non-humans have their 2nd language pre-selected for them. Humans get the option to select their own 2nd language (common being the 1st). Or perhaps they live in a remote area where they have little to no contact with the regional dialect. They, therefore, spend that "flex" skill point on something that they would be more likely to be doing day in and day out. Perhaps a craft/profession/perform skill.
|
|
James Jacobs just commented on this here.
For the new PFCS humans will know Taldane AND their native language. Unless Taldane actually is their native language in which case they only get Taldane.
|
|
It makes sense to me that knowing Common is mandatory for Pathfinders. YMMV.I am not trying to be inflamatory in any way.
Stupid = Really does not make any sense whatsoever to me.
I will not dispute that. My problem as stated in the topic title is with some human ethnicities not knowing their own native language.
I will not dispute that. My problem as stated in the topic title is with some human ethnicities not knowing their own native language.
It makes sense to me that knowing Common is mandatory for Pathfinders. YMMV.
I have no idea what the difference is between:
- having Osiriani as your native language and paying a skill point to know Common, and
- having Common as your native language and paying a skill point to know Osiriani
But one is stupid, and one isn't, is that what you're suggesting?
|
|
I have no idea what the difference is between:
- having Osiriani as your native language and paying a skill point to know Common, and
- having Common as your native language and paying a skill point to know Osiriani
But one is stupid, and one isn't, is that what you're suggesting?
Exactly!
One is having the population of a country NOT being able to speak THEIR OWN NATIVE language. [absurd]
The other is having those same people speak THEIR OWN NATIVE language. [logical]
That PFS then requires all PCs to speak Taldane, is a whole other story.
But since the PFCS and PRPG are not exclusive to PFS I think it is natural that PCs' default language is their native tongue.
I think having humans speak both automatically, is the most intelligent solution.
But by the PRPG Core Book humans do get their native and Common, because the core book is setting neutral and the two are the same language for humans. Your argument would work better if you were referencing the Campaign Setting instead, since that is the setting book for Golarion, and that is where Paizo did not let humans get their local language as well as Common, if they were different. So maybe if enough people say something, then they might fix this in the new version of the Campaign Setting that comes out later this year.
Heh, I am quoting myself here because I feel like I am in one of those dumb Windows 7 commercials, since 10 hours after I posted this James posted that this would be changed in the new version of the Campaign Setting:
In the revised Campaign Setting hardcover, all PCs are assumed to speak Common. They gain a free bonus language based on their ethnicity as well, so a Varisian will begin play speaking Common and Varisian, and an Ulfen will begin play speaking Common and Skald. This does mean that some ethnicities will get only one language—Taldans start with Common and that's about it. Same goes for Chelaxians.
And now I can claim it changed because of me. lol