One of the PCs in my game on saturday summoned a Large air elemental (CR 5), which has a speed of 100 ft., whirlwind is DC 18, and slam damage is 1d8+4. He used it to mow down several foes in a way that had everyone at the table rather increduluous (including the player who summoned the AE). By running back and forth across a line of three or four foes, the AE was able to hit each foe at least 4 or 5 times with its 100 ft. speed, forcing them to make DC 18 Ref saves to avoid being caught and a 2nd save to avoid 1d8+4 dmg on each pass.
Now imagine the same tactic used against a single foe, with the AE passing into and out of the foe's square ten times in one round (which it can do with 100 ft. speed), purposely dropping the foe (a free action) any time it gets caught in the ww in favor of forcing the foe to make a new save vs. the slam damage on every pass. If the foe makes its Ref save on half of the passes, that's still an average of 42 dmg per round. If the foe fails all of the saves, thats an average of 85 dmg per round, with the potential to do as much as 120 dmg in 1 round. Does that seem broken for a CR 5 monster?
I'd probably limit the whirlwind effect to only affect a given creature once per round. That would be a house rule, though.
It's not making actual slam attacks. It's just moving over the opponents:
"Another creature might be caught in the whirlwind if it touches or enters the whirlwind, or if the whirlwind moves into or through a creature's space."
"Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind might take damage when caught in the whirlwind (generally damage equal to the monster's slam attack for a creature of its size) and may be lifted into the air."
Whirlwind doesn't allow any attacks from the AE. The sentence that explains this: "A creature in whirlwind form cannot make it's normal attacks and does not threaten the area around it."
Right, the AE wasn't making attacks, it was just passing through enemy squares. From Whirlwind Attack:
Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind might take damage when caught in the whirlwind (generally damage equal to the monster's slam attack for a creature of its size) and may be lifted into the air. An affected creature must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 10 + half monster's HD + the monster's Strength modifier) when it comes into contact with the whirlwind or take damage as if it were hit by the whirlwind creature's slam attack. It must also succeed on a second Reflex save or be picked up bodily and held suspended in the powerful winds, automatically taking the indicated damage each round. A creature that can fly is allowed a Reflex save each round to escape the whirlwind. The creature still takes damage but can leave if the save is successful.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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There's a simple defense against being hit for whirlwind damage multiple times in a round. If you have a poor reflex save and don't expect to make the same, just voluntarily fail the 2nd save, and get picked up by the whirlwind and get lifted up into it. Then you're only taking the damage once per round. If you're a wizard type, you can try to make a concentration check and cast spells from inside (preferably something to escape) and if you're a fighter type, you're just where you want to be - making full attacks against the elemental that otherwise you can't catch up with as it zooms past.
There's a simple defense against being hit for whirlwind damage multiple times in a round. If you have a poor reflex save and don't expect to make the same, just voluntarily fail the 2nd save, and get picked up by the whirlwind and get lifted up into it. Then you're only taking the damage once per round. If you're a wizard type, you can try to make a concentration check and cast spells from inside (preferably something to escape) and if you're a fighter type, you're just where you want to be - making full attacks against the elemental that otherwise you can't catch up with as it zooms past.
The only problem with that defense is that the AE can voluntarily eject a creature caught in its ww as a free action. I guess a GM could limit the number of free actions the AE can use to eject a foe during its turn, but the rules aren't clear about that.
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Yes, it can dispose of you anytime it wants as a free action. So in addition to that slam damage, you may be lifted up to 100 feet in the air and dropped in the same round. 10d6 damage anyone?
I wouldn't think there would be a limit to how many creatures it can eject at once, it's like dropping an armload of something, it all pretty much happens at the same time.
Yes, it can dispose of you anytime it wants as a free action. So in addition to that slam damage, you may be lifted up to 100 feet in the air and dropped in the same round. 10d6 damage anyone?
I wouldn't think there would be a limit to how many creatures it can eject at once, it's like dropping an armload of something, it all pretty much happens at the same time.
Yep, and I would even say that the AE can opt not to let a target become caught in its ww as a free action, though the rules don't specifically cover this. The way it stands, I think every 10th-level caster with summon monster would regularly be summoning Large AEs to mop the floor with their enemies as often as possible.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Any time recurring area damage occurs, it is safest to assume you can only take it once per round per effect, even if exposed multiple times. So for example running through the same wall of fire or ice storm multiple times in a round wouldn't be any worse than standing in the effect for your whole round (and really, it shouldn't be). Apply this logic to the air elemental and you're fine.
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Any time recurring area damage occurs, it is safest to assume you can only take it once per round per effect, even if exposed multiple times. So for example running through the same wall of fire or ice storm multiple times in a round wouldn't be any worse than standing in the effect for your whole round (and really, it shouldn't be). Apply this logic to the air elemental and you're fine.
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I believe your Air Elemental is is moving wrong. It only has a fly speed so to flip a 180 degree turn costs it 10 feet of movement plus 5 feet for every pass it makes over a foe. This reduces the number of times it can effectivly pass over a single medium foe to 4 times in a round.
Personally I don't think a maximum 36 damage is gonna break a combat.
Edit: If I moved it more effectivley I can get 5 passes instead of four so 45 damage vs. 1 foe(max). Still not gonna worry as a GM or player. Sure it's strong but that's why a CR 5 foe is a workout for 4 level 5 PC's
So according to your interpretation, Fenix, an air elemental could pick up someone merely by moving over them doing small amounts of damage in the process, and then drop them for lots more damage, and then pick them up and do it several more times in the same move action?
Wow. that's broken.
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So according to your interpretation, Fenix, an air elemental could pick up someone merely by moving over them doing small amounts of damage in the process, and then drop them for lots more damage, and then pick them up and do it several more times in the same move action?
Wow. that's broken.
What drop are you refering to? This is merely on a horizontal plane. If we added Z axis movement then the air elemental would be even MORE limited on it's movement.
So let's say I want my Air Elemental to make as many passes as possible and still drop a foe from 50 feet. Guess what? I have to start the round in the same square as the PC since you move at half speed while climbing. So dropping a foe from max height in one round worth's of movement isn't any bigger of a threat.
The real danger of Air Elementals though is if they pick you up and spend a few rounds climbing and drop foes for fall damage. A cr 5 Elemental if it started in the square next to a foe picked him up and began climbing as fast as it could then by round 3 it would have acheived terminal height. 20d6 is crazy high damage at level 5. Mind you I'm not sure how encumberance would effect the elemental's speed since it's 'kinda' carrying the creature. I'm saying 240 feet in 3 rounds if it has full movement.
Either way I stand by my original statement that an air elemental running over a foe multiple times in a round is high damage but nowhere near broken. Unless 5 attacks for 1d8+4 damage with a reflex save to negate each one is broken.
So according to your interpretation, Fenix, an air elemental could pick up someone merely by moving over them doing small amounts of damage in the process, and then drop them for lots more damage, and then pick them up and do it several more times in the same move action?
Wow. that's broken.
What drop are you refering to? This is merely on a horizontal plane. If we added Z axis movement then the air elemental would be even MORE limited on it's movement.
So let's say I want my Air Elemental to make as many passes as possible and still drop a foe from 50 feet. Guess what? I have to start the round in the same square as the PC since you move at half speed while climbing. So dropping a foe from max height in one round worth's of movement isn't any bigger of a threat.
The real danger of Air Elementals though is if they pick you up and spend a few rounds climbing and drop foes for fall damage. A cr 5 Elemental if it started in the square next to a foe picked him up and began climbing as fast as it could then by round 3 it would have achieved terminal height. 20d6 is crazy high damage at level 5. Mind you I'm not sure how encumbrance would effect the elemental's speed since it's 'kinda' carrying the creature. I'm saying 240 feet in 3 rounds if it has full movement.
Either way I stand by my original statement that an air elemental running over a foe multiple times in a round is high damage but nowhere near broken. Unless 5 attacks for 1d8+4 damage with a reflex save to negate each one is broken.
I was thinking more like the air elemental stays on the ground, picks up a grounded target, lifts them up to the maximum height of their funnel, and THEN drops them all as part of movement. The air elemental never need to leave the ground to be able to drop someone from dozens of feet several times with a single move action (and some free actions too I guess).
If you consider that a Large Air Elemental can move 200 feet with a double move action, that would mean they could pick someone up and drop them 40 times (move 5 feet to enter their square, drop them adjacent, then move 5 feet more to pick them up again). A large elemental's funnel can be up to 40 feet tall, which is 4d6 damage when the hit the ground.
Last I checked: (40 x 4d6 = 160d6 damage) + (40 x 1d8+4 = 40d8+160) = (160d6 + 40d8 + 160)
That averages to about 900 damage to a single medium target for 1 round's worth of actions. A Large elemental gets 4 rounds of whirlwind. If it is a one on one fight, then the victim is going to eat a little less than 3600 damage (accounting for having to close the distance and successful acrobatics checks to reduce falling damage).
That is insanely broken, which is the point I was trying to make.
Maybe I'm missing something, but even though the AE doesn't threaten wouldn't all that movement over multiple foes provoke alot of AoO's as another limiting factor?
Maybe I'm missing something, but even though the AE doesn't threaten wouldn't all that movement over multiple foes provoke alot of AoO's as another limiting factor?
Maybe, but the elemental could potentially concentrate on the same for multiple times (as above). That's only a handful of AoO's (if they have Combat Reflexes) and one supremely dead victim.
EDIT: Haha. Turns out whirlwind movement doesn't provoke, even when entering squares.
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I believe your Air Elemental is is moving wrong. It only has a fly speed so to flip a 180 degree turn costs it 10 feet of movement plus 5 feet for every pass it makes over a foe. This reduces the number of times it can effectivly pass over a single medium foe to 4 times in a round.
This is probably the most important point I've read here - the cost of turning in fly mode.
My numbers off will be a fair bit off due to the 180 thing (which apparently even creatures with perfect maneuverability have to contend with now), but the tactic is no less broken (it still kills CR 5s without breaking a sweat).
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I would have to agree with Russ, the effect should only apply once per round per creature, additional passes over the same creature should have no effect. The AE could still lift the subjects off the ground and drop them, I think they can drop them from any space the AE occupies, that means a large one could drop them from 40' up without even having to ascend itself. And I was wrong before, I think you can only fly upwards at half speed, so it could only climb 50' max in one round. If it had to move forward 1 space to contact a creature and then start climbing, it would only be able to ascend 40-45 feet depending on how you interpret the flying rules. This still means you could get dropped from a height of 80 feet, since it is 40 feet tall.
Remember though, a summoned creature isn't totally controlled by the PC who summoned it. It doesn't have to fight the way the PC's want it to. It even mentions that Air Elementals resent being summoned, though they are supposed to fight to the best of their abilities. It's idea of the best tactics might not be the PC's ideas of the best tactics.
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I suppose if you read deposit a creature in it's space as drop from the top of the whirlwind then yeah you're right. Also on a board the whirlwind will only take up a single square at its base, so did the devs want the creature in that space or any number of the squares the whirlwind takes up. After all the drop bit is badly worded but it does use the singular space to refrence where the creature lands.
Also I'd like to retract my statement of only 5 passes as that was based off single moves.
Still ramping up the damage to that level on a creature that can be dropped by an average team in 2 rounds doesn't concern me.
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Upon further review, the Air Elemental should have to abide by encumbrance rules, A Medium Load for a Large Air Elemental (Str 18) starts at 201 lbs., which would cut it's speed to 75ft. Heavy load is 401 lbs, Max load is 600 lbs.
Both speed and Check Penalties to flying should be taken into effect.
So, have an enlarge potion ready when an Air Elemental shows up.
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Upon further review, the Air Elemental should have to abide by encumbrance rules, A Medium Load for a Large Air Elemental (Str 18) starts at 201 lbs., which would cut it's speed to 75ft. Heavy load is 401 lbs, Max load is 600 lbs.
Both speed and Check Penalties to flying should be taken into effect.
So, have an enlarge potion ready when an Air Elemental shows up.
If you're large you ignore a large AE's whirlwind anyway.
Once per round is sufficient, and since the player doesnt control the Air Elementals actions precisely (it fights on the summoners behalf to the best of its ability), I doubt it'd try this trick even if it wanted to.
Game balance dictates it does it once per round per foe, if it chooses to do this 'pickup, drop' attack. The whole intention of the attack was to pick foes up and take them effectively out the fight while dealing modest sums of damage in the process to caught foes.
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I suppose if you read deposit a creature in it's space as drop from the top of the whirlwind then yeah you're right. Also on a board the whirlwind will only take up a single square at its base, so did the devs want the creature in that space or any number of the squares the whirlwind takes up. After all the drop bit is badly worded but it does use the singular space to refrence where the creature lands.
Also I'd like to retract my statement of only 5 passes as that was based off single moves.
Still ramping up the damage to that level on a creature that can be dropped by an average team in 2 rounds doesn't concern me.
Yeah, the wording could be worked on. I see a creatures space as the entire area that it takes up. A creature doesn't occupied spaces, it occupies a single space, made up of one or more squares. It has a 10' space when not in whirlwind form, I believe the height is assumed to be the same as the space in most cases, so a 10'x10' space.
In whirlwind it would be a cone shaped space, 5' at the base and 20' diameter at the top, 40' high. My interpretation would be, that entire volume is it's space. There would be no argument that any creature entering any of those occupied squares would get sucked into the whirlwind.It could be cleared up though, either creatures are ejected at the base, or any square it occupies. Or, for balance maybe it should be any square within the original (non-whirlwind) creatures space.
Space should really be in the Definitions, that might clear things up.
EDIT: It does say, ejected though... and ejected sure sounds like it should be a undesirable effect.
I believe your Air Elemental is is moving wrong. It only has a fly speed so to flip a 180 degree turn costs it 10 feet of movement plus 5 feet for every pass it makes over a foe. This reduces the number of times it can effectivly pass over a single medium foe to 4 times in a round.
Personally I don't think a maximum 36 damage is gonna break a combat.
Edit: If I moved it more effectivley I can get 5 passes instead of four so 45 damage vs. 1 foe(max). Still not gonna worry as a GM or player. Sure it's strong but that's why a CR 5 foe is a workout for 4 level 5 PC's
Actually, it would be max. 60 dmg with 5 passes (1d8+4, or 12 per pass), 42 dmg. on average. With double move, max. 120 dmg, or 84 average. Not as broken as I thought at first, but still pretty nasty.
Applying Russ' house rule regarding recurring area dmg. certainly fixes the problem, but again, that's a house rule fix.
I was thinking more like the air elemental stays on the ground, picks up a grounded target, lifts them up to the maximum height of their funnel, and THEN drops them all as part of movement. The air elemental never need to leave the ground to be able to drop someone from dozens of feet several times with a single move action (and some free actions too I guess).If you consider that a Large Air Elemental can move 200 feet with a double move...
Ouch! It's even more broken than I thought!
Alright, here's an attempt at getting the numbers right.
Assumptions:
- Elemental is large (described using the female pronoun for easy differentiation)
- Target victim is medium fighter (referred to using the male pronoun)
- The two begin the example adjacent to one another
Example:
She takes two move actions to move (the double move action if you will). She moves into the fighter's square, thereby picking him up. He takes 1d8+4 damage from being thrashed about as he is sucked into the funnel. He is then dragged to the top of the funnel 40 feet high and dropped as a free action, taking as much as 4d6 falling damage upon landing. Note that the fighter is STILL in the 5 foot square occupied by the elemental, though the rules' wording strongly suggest that he is no longer considered to be trapped in her whirlwind. So she moves 5 feet to leave his square (which does not provoke since she is a whirlwind), loses 10 more feet to pull a 180, and then an additional 5 feet to doubleback into the square she just left. So to pick up and drop a single target once she must expend 15 feet of movement. That means over the course of her 200 feet of movement, she could pick up and drop that poor fighter 13 times, with a little bit of movement left over.
So in one round, a CR 5 creature is capable of dealing 13 x (4d6 & 1d8+4) = 52d6+13d8+52 damage. That averages to 292 damage (rounded down), which is enough to kill all but the toughest of 20th-level characters. Barbarians with 24 Constitution might survive that kind of damage, but everyone else is screwed. Even said barbarian is unlikely to survive 4 rounds of this kind of punishment (which is how long the air elemental can stay in whirlwind form).
Am I missing anything?
Even if you rule she can only do this once to each character each round, it remains a borderline broken ability as it allows her to trash the entire party over and over again each round. If she survives long enough to get all 4 rounds off, everyone is either dead or close to it.
Alright, here's an attempt at getting the numbers right.
Assumptions:
- Elemental is large (described using the female pronoun for easy differentiation)
- Target victim is medium fighter (referred to using the male pronoun)
- The two begin the example adjacent to one anotherExample:
She takes two move actions to move (the double move action if you will). She moves into the fighter's square, thereby picking him up. He takes 1d8+4 damage from being thrashed about as he is sucked into the funnel. He is then dragged to the top of the funnel 40 feet high and dropped as a free action, taking as much as 4d6 falling damage upon landing. Note that the fighter is STILL in the 5 foot square occupied by the elemental, though the rules' wording strongly suggest that he is no longer considered to be trapped in her whirlwind. So she moves 5 feet to leave his square (which does not provoke since she is a whirlwind), loses 10 more feet to pull a 180, and then an additional 5 feet to doubleback into the square she just left. So to pick up and drop a single target once she must expend 15 feet of movement. That means over the course of her 200 feet of movement, she could pick up and drop that poor fighter 13 times, with a little bit of movement left over.
So in one round, a CR 5 creature is capable of dealing 13 x (4d6 & 1d8+4) = 52d6+13d8+52 damage. That averages to 292 damage (rounded down), which is enough to kill all but the toughest of 20th-level characters. Barbarians with 24 Constitution might survive that kind of damage, but everyone else is screwed. Even said barbarian is unlikely to survive 4 rounds of this kind of punishment (which is how long the air elemental can stay in whirlwind form).
Am I missing anything?
Even if you rule she can only do this once to each character each round, it remains a borderline broken ability as it allows her to trash the entire party over and over again each round. If she survives long enough to get all 4 rounds off, everyone is either dead or close to it.
I know what your missing....a combat round is only 6 seconds approximately, how a Air Elemental can accomplish all this in one round doesnt fit that idea. Its not some light-speed 'pick up/drop/pick up/drop' effort that goes on comically like some Laurel & Hardy show. The Elemental is NOT smart enough at Intelligence 6 to employ this tactic in any event, and the Air Elemental fights to the best of its ability but it does so AS AN NPC, not under the players control.
Summon Monster spells should always be treated as NPC's, and played by the GM. Creatures affected by the Air Elementals Whirlwind attack get two saving throws (one for the damage and the other to avoid being sucked up into the whirlwind itself) to make, plus it can only hold as many creatures inside depending on its approximate volume, if the Air Elemental wanted to 'deposit' a character by ejecting them, nowhere does it denote that falling damage is ever considered, otherwise the ability would mention falling damage in the description. Such creatures are just 'flung' down to the ground but its likely since the are desposited in its space the whirlwind itself cushions and slows their fall to the ground since they share the same space.
At the end of the day, while this debate is going on there are three key points above all that override the whole arguement...
1.) The Air Elemental has Intelligence 6, it doesnt have intelligence enough to use this tactic (even if it could somehow), it would pick people up in the whirlwind and hold them there, dealing damage every round unless someone makes their Reflex save (which is how the ability was intended)
2.) The Air Elemental is a NPC, played by the dungeon master.
3.) The ability itself is not 'intimately known' to the character, they know whats appropiate for the relevant Knowledge roll but even then that DOESNT explain to the character word-for-word the text of the ability, only what the character would otherwise 'know' from texts and legends in game which would be general purpose facts.
I know what your missing....a combat round is only 6 seconds approximately, how a Air Elemental can accomplish all this in one round doesnt fit that idea. Its not some light-speed 'pick up/drop/pick up/drop' effort that goes on comically like some Laurel & Hardy show. The Elemental is NOT smart enough at Intelligence 6 to employ this tactic in any event, and the Air Elemental fights to the best of its ability but it does so AS AN NPC, not under the players control.
I am merely quoting mechanics as they appear to be written. It's easy enough to describe the bizarre situation as "the target isn't truly being released but has made 13 passes around the funnel slamming into the ground HARD each time."
Mechanics, like hit points, are somewhat abstracted anyways.
In any case, the elemental's intelligence does not factor into it. It's natural instinct is to pick things up in a whirlwind and toss them about, just like it's a dog's instinct to go for the throat, or a man's instinct to cover his face with his arms when attacked. It's hardly a strategy/tactic, it's what comes naturally to the creature regardless of intelligence.
Control is not an issue either. The air elemental fights the same way (to the best of its ability, as you say) regardless of whether it is controlled by a PC summoner (who usually does little more than point out targets to attack anyways) or as a monster-run GM encounter.
I do, however, agree that it it probably against the rules AS INTENDED as no rules were ever "intended" to be broken. RAW, however, appears to support the notion.
It takes 2 seconds to fall 40'. It probably takes twice as long to be swept *up* 40'. Round over.
Whirlwind is a crazy ability, certainly wrecked my 3.0 game way back (8th level spell from a staff of the magi... at 10th-12th level). But it's not *that* crazy. You save once against the whirlwind, you don't get picked up that round. You grabbed hold of something and aren't going anywhere.
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I do understand what your saying based on the RAW, but the problem is...the ability was intended to simply 'pick up, confine and damage characters' on a round per round basis, effectively taking someone out of a fight.
A character being 'dropped' from the Air Elemental doesnt suffer fall damage (since it isnt ejected out of the Air Elemental, the ability itself says later it deposits them in the same square), taking wind resistance into account for the Air Elementals presence, its safe to assume the wind prevents the character from crashing into the ground in falling damage style...more like it 'drops them' through its body, which slows the characters rate of descent to cause no reasonable damage.
The ability doesnt mention 'falling damage' in its description but its easy to assume why it would be the case given how the ability works. But given the RAW, there is no falling damage from being released by the Air Elemental from the Whirlwind itself.
So take that into account and all you have left is the Slam Damage by the remainder of the arguement.
Also, note the following text from the wording of Whirlwind, on Page 306.
"...Creatures one or more sizes smaller than the whirlwind might take damage when caught in the whirlwind (generally equal to the monsters slam attack for a creature of its size) and may be lifted into the air. An affected creature must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 monsters HD + Str Modifier) when it comes into contact with the Whirlwind or take damage as if it were hit by the creatures Slam Attack. It must also succeed on a second Reflex save or be picked up bodily and held suspended in the powerful winds, automatically taking the indicated damage each round. A creature that can Fly is allowed a Reflex save each round to escape the Whirlwind. The creature still takes damage but can leave if the save is successful.
Then onward a few paragraphs...
"The whirlwind can eject any carried creatures it wishes as a free action, depositing them in its space"
The Elemental could very well do damage from the initial contact of re-entering the creatures square (the first save you'd make), but you would get a reflex save for each and every attempt.
And you'd also get a secondary save against every attempt to pick them up into the whirlwind itself, but you could only take the damage from being suspended inside it ONCE in a round equal to the slam damage.Plus as it deposits said creatures in its space, and mentions no fall damage in the RAW, the creatures would take no falling damage as a result (likely a result of the whirlwinds presence in the same square causing wind resistance to hamper the fall).
You'd get two saves each and every time it tries this, with no fall damage...only slam damage on failed saves
Though I am sure the ability was designed to be used on creatures once per round based on the wording.
Those are some very good arguments, Princess.
Those are some very good arguments, Princess.
Thank you...your own arguements were logical and well thought out as well., I know the ability is confusing...but no arguement that the ability needs to be clearly worded.
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I'm with you on the once per round thing, but I still believe it can eject you from anywhere within it's space, being the entire vortex cone.
It says "space" not "square". It's space is not solely dictated by the single 5' square at it's base. A character flying 40' in the air would get swallowed up in the whirlwind once it touches the 20' diameter area at the top. Why couldn't the whirlwind also eject them from that same position?
Creatures trapped in the whirlwind cannot move except to go where the whirlwind carries them or to escape the whirlwind. Trapped creatures can otherwise act normally, but must succeed on a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell. Creatures caught in the whirlwind take a –4 penalty to Dexterity and a –2 penalty on attack rolls. The whirlwind can have only as many creatures trapped inside at one time as will fit inside the whirlwind's volume. The whirlwind can eject any carried creatures whenever it wishes as a free action, depositing them in its space.
It clearly says the whirlwind can carry creatures and that it can hold as many as will fit in it's volume, suggesting they can be anywhere within the volume. It doesn't specify that creatures can only be ejected at it's base, just in its space... its space is a big cone.
Falling damage doesn't have to be specified in the description, it has it's own rules.
Any time recurring area damage occurs, it is safest to assume you can only take it once per round per effect, even if exposed multiple times. So for example running through the same wall of fire or ice storm multiple times in a round wouldn't be any worse than standing in the effect for your whole round (and really, it shouldn't be). Apply this logic to the air elemental and you're fine.
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I'm with you on the once per round thing, but I still believe it can eject you from anywhere within it's space, being the entire vortex cone.
It says "space" not "square". It's space is not solely dictated by the single 5' square at it's base. A character flying 40' in the air would get swallowed up in the whirlwind once it touches the 20' diameter area at the top. Why couldn't the whirlwind also eject them from that same position?
Creatures trapped in the whirlwind cannot move except to go where the whirlwind carries them or to escape the whirlwind. Trapped creatures can otherwise act normally, but must succeed on a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell. Creatures caught in the whirlwind take a –4 penalty to Dexterity and a –2 penalty on attack rolls. The whirlwind can have only as many creatures trapped inside at one time as will fit inside the whirlwind's volume. The whirlwind can eject any carried creatures whenever it wishes as a free action, depositing them in its space.It clearly says the whirlwind can carry creatures and that it can hold as many as will fit in it's volume, suggesting they can be anywhere within the volume. It doesn't specify that creatures can only be ejected at it's base, just in its space... its space is a big cone.
Falling damage doesn't have to be specified in the description, it has it's own rules.
The 'space' it occupies is filled with the whirlwind, so air resistance from the whirlwind would apply to negate the fall damage. Notice that the ability says 'ejects' but then says 'depositing' in its space...it doesnt eject them 'outside' the area the whirlwind doesnt occupy (because in that instant falling damage would be logical to assume, but NOT within the confines of the whirlwind's space itself)
Unfortunately, without specifically calling out that a creature sustains fall damage dependant on the size of the whirlwind, then it does not apply in this case. No fall damage occurs.Plus characters recieve two saves every time it touches them and tries to pick them up, regardless how may attempts it makes in a round.
Since the ability text doesnt differentiate the one 5ft square its in to the space it occupies, in terms of the whole space/size issue, it 'occupies' all the relevant squares for the purpose of this ability and can deposit a character in any square it exists within. Such squares are squares of very strong winds and surely air resistace applies, that is why the ability does not state anywhere it deals falling damage - thats not the RAW, it didnt work that way in 3.5 and it doesnt cause falling damage here for the same reason (otherwise the Air Elemental would be considered unbalanced compared to the other Elementals of the same size who could not house-rule extra damage onto their attacks).
If anyone wants to ignore the whole wind-resistance/falling within the space of a whirlwind issue...the go ahead, add fall damage as a house rule to your individual games, but its not mentioned anywhere in the abilities description.
At the end of the day, the ability was supposed to be used like this...elemental invades foes square, picks them up, suspends them within it and deals damage on a per round basis while preventing their enemy from undertaking a plethora of actions...thusly, it is able to continually injure its foe while restricting their ability to fight back.
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I know what your missing....a combat round is only 6 seconds approximately, how a Air Elemental can accomplish all this in one round doesnt fit that idea. Its not some light-speed 'pick up/drop/pick up/drop' effort that goes on comically like some Laurel & Hardy show. The Elemental is NOT smart enough at Intelligence 6 to employ this tactic in any event, and the Air Elemental fights to the best of its ability but it does so AS AN NPC, not under the players control.I am merely quoting mechanics as they appear to be written. It's easy enough to describe the bizarre situation as "the target isn't truly being released but has made 13 passes around the funnel slamming into the ground HARD each time."
Mechanics, like hit points, are somewhat abstracted anyways.
In any case, the elemental's intelligence does not factor into it. It's natural instinct is to pick things up in a whirlwind and toss them about, just like it's a dog's instinct to go for the throat, or a man's instinct to cover his face with his arms when attacked. It's hardly a strategy/tactic, it's what comes naturally to the creature regardless of intelligence.
Control is not an issue either. The air elemental fights the same way (to the best of its ability, as you say) regardless of whether it is controlled by a PC summoner (who usually does little more than point out targets to attack anyways) or as a monster-run GM encounter.
I do, however, agree that it it probably against the rules AS INTENDED as no rules were ever "intended" to be broken. RAW, however, appears to support the notion.
Whether the air elemental is capable of doing such is one issue. Whether it's intelligent enough to pick someone up, drop them, move away, move back, pick them up again... X times is a whole other issue. Creature intelligence is relevant because it talks to how complicated the battlefield tactics the creature would use.
Creature intelligence is also part of RAW. Of course other creatures have whirlwind and high intelligence though :P
Whether the air elemental is capable of doing such is one issue. Whether it's intelligent enough to pick someone up, drop them, move away, move back, pick them up again... X times is a whole other issue. Creature intelligence is relevant because it talks to how complicated the battlefield tactics the creature would use.
An air elemental going over a single target X times should require no more intelligence then a jungle cat clawing and biting a single target over and over again--and air elementals are much smarter than jungle cats.
Whether the air elemental is capable of doing such is one issue. Whether it's intelligent enough to pick someone up, drop them, move away, move back, pick them up again... X times is a whole other issue. Creature intelligence is relevant because it talks to how complicated the battlefield tactics the creature would use.An air elemental going over a single target X times should require no more intelligence then a jungle cat clawing and biting a single target over and over again--and air elementals are much smarter than jungle cats.
Also, the Air Elemental is a NPC with limited intelligence, if the player character themselves was the Air Elemetal, then of course if the player wanted to do this - they have control over their own actions.
But summon monsters are a different kettle of fish....
The summoner is not so intimately familiar with the mechanics of this attack that they would even consider to try and exploit it. They know the Air Elemental can turn into a whirlwind and pick up their enemies, hold them in stasis and damage them every round and thats how they fight in combat. The Air Elemental does not have intimate knowledge of other creatures or even knowledge of any kind of battle tactics, it more or less just wades in and attacks to the best of its limited intelligence, which tends to favor direct attacks over anything else. It can turn into a whirlwind of course, but it doesnt have the smarts to jump in and out of squares like this (plus I have NEVER seen Air Elementals behave like that in any published adventures which further cements this irreproachable fact).
Creatures are getting two saves against each and every attempt the Air Elemental makes to invade their square, regardless how many times it can do this in a round.
Creatures should realistically only be affected once per round by this ability, thats how it was intended. But if people want to use it as a 'it can move X amount and deal X number of attacks because I interpret the attack this way or that way' then fine go ahead...
...but the problem is, it would only take the damage from the initial first save per instance of contact between the whirlwind and the opponent IF they failed their saves, and if they failed their second saves they'd be picked up into the whirlwind itself. Even if the whirlwind ejected the character, depositing them in its 'space', that 'space' is filled with powerful winds and as such explains why there is no mention of falling damage anywhere in the Whirlwind entry for special attacks. Thats the RAW, if it doesnt mention it, it doesnt happen. It doesnt say you 'fall X feet and sustain xD6 damage' based on the size of the whirlwind, if it did, then there would be no arguement there.
So a whirlwind using this method of attack would get X number of initial contact hits from the whirlwind entering their square, and the creature would make just as may saves to see if it would get lifted up and picked up into the whirlwind...though the whole intention of the secondary effect is to hold an opponent in stasis and carry them around inside while dealing continual damage on a per round basis as it is listed in the ability description itself.
More or less, what we have here is a 'spinning top' effect, the whirlwind moving around back and forth entering, leaving, re-reetering, leaving again, etc the opponents square as many times it can, taking into account movement costs for 180 degree turns, dealing X number of hits that all allow saving throws. The secondary effect would not deal falling damage - theres nothing in the RAW which explains this at all in the special attack entry (though it would be logical to assume if the creature was ejected outside the whirlwinds space this would be the case as there would be no wind resistance to reduce the fall height...but as the special attack metions nothing about additional fall damage, then it never occurs).
Even with this 'spinning top' effect which is a quirky interpretation of how this should work (common sense aside if you just go with the ability itself and forget that its supposed to be on par CR wise to other elementals of the same category) you'd deal more damage than it'd normally deal in a normal full attack...and thats wrong.
Puts it above other elementals, but if the ability was intepreted correctly and using common sense, you'd make it a once per round effect which is how it was intended. That keeps it in line with the CR of the other elementals of the same size.
Do I think an air elemental would pick up and drop a creature multiple times in the same round? No. Its legality is questionable and it obviously wasn't the intend of the game designers.
Do I think their not using this tactic is in any way related to their intelligence (or lack there of)? Absolutely not.
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This is a flying creature, there would be no argument that, if the Air Elemental trapped you in the whirlwind it could then fly up into the air and then deposit you. You would then take falling damage, correct?
My argument though, is that a creatures space is not it's base. I made up a cross section of what a Large Air Elemental would look like in its maximum sized whirlwind form. Diced into nice 5' squares. You can see it takes up a rather large space and could easily drop a creature without touching another part of the whirlwind, negating any "wind resistance" that might be present. And the definition of deposit can mean, to place or let fall.
A 40' tall whirlwind would never be able to drop you from 40', since it's max height is 40' it could only drop you 35' at the max. As seen in this diagram it could drop from 30', 20' and 10' doing 3d6, 2d6 or 1d6 of damage respectively. If the ground is soft 1d6 of that might be nonlethal damage. That doesn't seem unbalanced 2d6 lethal 1d6 nonlethal, and remember, you do need to fail a reflex save to get caught in the 1st place and it might not even be in it's best interest to drop a creature. Keeping them inside guarantees slam damage and can mess up spellcasting.
The Earth elemental can do crazy damage, 2 slams +14 (2d6+7). It has great combat feats and can potentially grapple a victim and drag them underground to suffocate.
The Fire elemental does damage every time someone attacks it with a melee weapon, and can catch you on fire.
The Water elemental can do a vortex, similar to whirlwind, but you are trapped underwater and can't do anything without wasting valuable air. I would imagine you wouldn't have a problem with the vortex releasing a creature from the top side or dragging them 40' down to the bottom would you?
I don't think the Air Elemental being able to drop a creature and take 30' of falling damage makes it out of line with other elementals of it's level. The whirlwind is basically a mini tornado, they pick things up and toss them about, it's fun, it's cool, its dangerous. I'd like to see a variant on this, maybe a smaller vortex but it could actually toss creatures out... but that is getting off topic.
This is a flying creature, there would be no argument that, if the Air Elemental trapped you in the whirlwind it could then fly up into the air and then deposit you. You would then take falling damage, correct?
Actually, the Air Elemental 'could' obey the rules for doing just this, but then again, its not going to be doing much of it once you take movement costs/direction changes into account. In this instance and ONLY this instance would falling damage be appropiate (the damage being equal to the distance fallen x 10 ft beneath the Air Elemental's 'space' to the surface (then again...featherfall COMPLETELY negates the fall damage)).
My argument though, is that a creatures space is not it's base. I made up a cross section of what a Large Air Elemental would look like in its maximum sized whirlwind form. Diced into nice 5' squares. You can see it takes up a rather large space and could easily drop a creature without touching another part of the whirlwind, negating any "wind resistance" that might be present. And the definition of deposit can mean, to place or let fall.
A 40' tall whirlwind would never be able to drop you from 40', since it's max height is 40' it could only drop you 35' at the max. As seen in this diagram it could drop from 30', 20' and 10' doing 3d6, 2d6 or 1d6 of damage respectively. If the ground is soft 1d6 of that might be nonlethal damage. That doesn't seem unbalanced 2d6 lethal 1d6 nonlethal, and remember, you do need to fail a reflex save to get caught in the 1st place and it might not even be in it's best interest to drop a creature. Keeping them inside guarantees slam damage and can mess up spellcasting.
Well if you want to inject realism into a vague concept sure go ahead, a creature of ANY size category that fills any 'space' actually 'fills' said space enough that creatures cannot exist inside the same square as it (except in cases of creatures two size categories smaller which can co-exist in the same square as a larger opponent).
A Whirlwind is NO DIFFERENT in this respect than a creature with 'space', despite how it actually exists or what its shape is...that is irrelevant in this game. The fact is it 'fills' those squares that are its space, regardless of how much of it is actually IN those squares.
What your proposing is a complete re-write and over complication of the rules regarding the 'space' creatures occupy. It does NOT take into account ANYWHERE in the book about a creatures body shape or anatomy in this regard, if a creature fills a 10 ft space and its only really 6 ft wide, there should be a 4 ft gap someone can walk into right?...WRONG, by the RAW of space that creatures fill, the 4ft gap is offlimits to other creatures unless they are two or more size categories less than the creature in that square.
Therefore, regardless of the visual aspect of how the 'whirlwind' appears, for the purposes of the rules it fills ALL the space it occupies regardless of its actual shape....this is not a home rule, this is the RAW, check the write up with regards to a creature space in the rulebook, it is absolute
The Earth elemental can do crazy damage, 2 slams +14 (2d6+7). It has great combat feats and can potentially grapple a victim and drag them underground to suffocate.
Actually...it cant, the Earth Elementals 'Earth Glide' ability only works for the Elemental alone, it CANNOT bring another creature along with it. Only it alone can move through earth and stone using this ability...no passangers I am afraid for good or bad.
The Fire elemental does damage every time someone attacks it with a melee weapon, and can catch you on fire.
Actually, you dont take fire damage from attacking a Fire Elemental, you do when you get hit and only then and you get a save from what?...taking a measly extra little bit of damage that is easily beaten by Resistance spells and so forth?
The Water elemental can do a vortex, similar to whirlwind, but you are trapped underwater and can't do anything without wasting valuable air. I would imagine you wouldn't have a problem with the vortex releasing a creature from the top side or dragging them 40' down to the bottom would you?
Actually, the Water Elemental would have NOTHING to gain by letting someone return to the surface...after all it wants to drown its enemies. So it'd keep them inside the vortex as long as possible.
Ontop of that...theres no additional effects beyond drowning, no fall damage and so forth. The ability is ON PAR with the Air Elementals ability.
I don't think the Air Elemental being able to drop a creature and take 30' of falling damage makes it out...
The Air Elemental can lift a creature up into the air on its turn (it clearly states it can carry captured foes) and THEN release them for falling damage without a doubt.
But since it has to be literally iches off the ground to catch a standing creature and assuming regardless of how high it was, it lifted someone into it and dropped them inside of its space without moving into the air first?, no fall damage. But if there is OPEN AIR beneath the elemental when it drops a captured foe of which that space it DOESNT occupy, then sure...apply fall damage.
But then again, one application of Featherfall or one of any number of cheap items that could grant it as a constant ability would completely negate the fall damage and force the Air Elemental to rely on dealing just slam damage instead.
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Whether the air elemental is capable of doing such is one issue. Whether it's intelligent enough to pick someone up, drop them, move away, move back, pick them up again... X times is a whole other issue. Creature intelligence is relevant because it talks to how complicated the battlefield tactics the creature would use.An air elemental going over a single target X times should require no more intelligence then a jungle cat clawing and biting a single target over and over again--and air elementals are much smarter than jungle cats.
Suffice to say that I don't agree that they are equivalent.
There are plenty of cool things which a summoned air elemental can do without resorting to cheese.
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What your proposing is a complete re-write and over complication of the rules regarding the 'space' creatures occupy. It does NOT take into account ANYWHERE in the book about a creatures body shape or anatomy in this regard, if a creature fills a 10 ft space and its only really 6 ft wide, there should be a 4 ft gap someone can walk into right?...WRONG, by the RAW of space that creatures fill, the 4ft gap is offlimits to other creatures unless they are two or more size categories less than the creature in that square.Therefore, regardless of the visual aspect of how the 'whirlwind' appears, for the purposes of the rules it fills ALL the space it occupies regardless of its actual shape....this is not a home rule, this is the RAW, check the write up with regards to a creature space in the rulebook, it is absolute
It does give specifics on the size and shape of the funnel, it is essentially a moving area of effect at this point. It doesn't give a space for the effect. It isn't necessary to visualize it in squares like I did, the point is, it is a tall cone that is smaller at the bottom than it is on the top. One has to know where they are affected and where they aren't. If they want to simplify it, it should either keep it's original space or define a new square space that the whirlwind affects and gently places its victims back into. The whirlwind spell is very similar, it specifies the exact dimension of the cylindrical area of the spell. It is no longer really a creature at this point just an area, a three dimensional area.
Could you please point me to where the rulebook covers creature space? I've been looking for that for days.
Actually...it cant, the Earth Elementals 'Earth Glide' ability only works for the Elemental alone, it CANNOT bring another creature along with it. Only it alone can move through earth and stone using this ability...no passangers I am afraid for good or bad.
I couldn't find anything in the Earth Glide ability or Burrowing that says it can't take another creature with it. Unless is is something about Supernatural abilities. I was thinking, perhaps wrongly, that if it could feasibly grapple or carry something it could do so with a creature too, but that might break some other rules.
Actually, you dont take fire damage from attacking a Fire Elemental, you do when you get hit and only then and you get a save from what?...taking a measly extra little bit of damage that is easily beaten by Resistance spells and so forth?
I misread the Burn ability here, that's what I get for checking facts too quickly :D It is talking about coming into contact with a creature affected by it's burn ability not the elemental itself... sorry.
Actually, the Water Elemental would have NOTHING to gain by letting someone return to the surface...after all it wants to drown its enemies. So it'd keep them inside the vortex as long as possible.
What if it changed its mind and decided it didn't want to hurt you :D They are Neutral after all, albeit temperamental.
The Air Elemental can lift a creature up into the air on its turn (it clearly states it can carry captured foes) and THEN release them for falling damage without a doubt.
But where are they before they get released? No argument that the whirlwind can pick up an entire party of adventurers if they all fail their saves, but are you saying they all stay right in the base of the funnel? It mentions that it can literally fill it's entire volume with creatures... that's a whole heck of a lot of creatures.
The wording of this ability, and the whirlwind spell both need work... I think we agree on that. I see how it can be interpreted either way though there isn't enough evidence in the description to tell me that it can't drop a creature from any part of the space it occupies. If it said, depositing them at its base, there would be no argument.
If something can pick something up, it should also be able to drop it. While the ability doesn't mention "drop", deposit can be interpreted as a form of dropping. In the RAW, you can drop something in your space or any adjacent square. An adjacent square should be any square that touches a creatures space in any dimension, in this case it could possibly be a square 35' above the ground. Whirlwind specifically says "in its space", but like I've said, it has a large, tall space.
It's one of the many cases that the rules fail to be specific enough to limit assumptions based on reality. One of the cool parts of this creature, to me, is that it can suck you up and spit you out... would I use this tactic every round? No, that would get old and I hope the PC's or enemies would find a tactic against such use. Encounters should be fun, dynamic and surprising, not tedious and mean. I will use the drop tactic, but now that it has been raised as questionable regarding the rules I'll keep an eye on it and make sure it is balanced.
Still, would be great to get some sort of official rule on this, I'd love to know even if I get shot down.