I was thinking of Racial Hit Dice Racial Substitution Levels, but I don't think that would work well either. Hope I didn't strike a nerve or anything. This is a great system and just tossing in some ideas.
One of the suggestions that Council of Thieves had for playing a Tiefling as a PC was to have it take 1 level in a NPC class. I was thinking of an option in 3.5 that did something similar. Your right, Monster Classes was a horrible idea, that’s not what I was thinking of.
I did some digging and I can break down Powerful Build as written like this;
- +1 Size modifier on Combat Maneuvers: 4 points. There is only 1 fest that adjusts all Combat Maneuvers, it does it by +2 and is a Team Work feat, so you have to be next to another character with that feat or an Inquisitor.
- +1 Size modifier on Combat Maneuver Defense: 4 points. See point above.
- Ability to use larger weapons without penalty: 4 points. The penalty in Pathfinder is only -2. There was a feat in 3.5 that allowed you to do this with half the penalty (-4 in 3.5). This could be increased to 6 points, but the damage increase isn’t that great.
So right off it looks easily like 12 points. This is a powerful ability and as said several times, it’s a LA +1 ability.
Quick question about swim speeds. Does having a racial swim speed give any other bonuses? Like a bonus to swim checks or the like, or does that usually require additional points?
Is that +8 in Pathfinder application? Because I noticed originally it gave a +8 bonus in 3.5 D&D (Though that D&D used the HD + 3 for max rank skills, and thus some things gave higher bonuses).
Just seems like it should be less than that to me, for some reason.
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Tengus aren't getting a smattering of weapons as automagical proficiencies, they're getting "anything sword-like" which is fairly over the top... it means that they are proficient with any long-bladed exotic weapons they encounter as well as all martial "swords" nomatter what they happen to have as a class, etc.
You're welcome to make monster level progressions, or class level replacements (have fun making them for every class for any given race) but as I mentioned above, I find monster classes to be a poor paradigm. Class replacement levels for specific races are fine so long as there is a trade-off rather than simply a bonus (in my opinion, obviously).
Powerful build is worth +1,000,000 points.. which is just me saying "there's no good way to have that in a LA 0 race". There has never been a race in any 3.x book that had powerful build without a level adjustment, to my knowledge (which I'll admit may be incomplete). I'd probably suggest making it two racial feats that require character level 5th. Split the benefits into two with the major benefits being the second feat that has the first as a prerequisite, and have the level 1 benefit be the +4 against bull-rushes and what not.
it was also a 1st level only human (regional) feat in forgotten realm. they called it jhotbrund or something. and its not that bad.
Jotunbrud does not give all the benefits of Powerful Build. For one, it states that the size you are treated as is "Large" for the circumstances it covers, and most notably it does NOT say you can use larger weapons without penalty. Thus, it lacks two parts of powerful build - the larger weapons (the benefit that I find most unbalancing) and the stacking with other enlargement effects.
To top off the fact that it does not cover all of the benefits of Powerful Build, it is race-limited, and a 1st level only feat - two things that generally serve to limit a more powerful ability from being taken by everybody.
So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Jotunbrud
Amusingly, this translates to 'giant bride' and not giant blood.
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Is that +8 in Pathfinder application? Because I noticed originally it gave a +8 bonus in 3.5 D&D (Though that D&D used the HD + 3 for max rank skills, and thus some things gave higher bonuses).
Just seems like it should be less than that to me, for some reason.
Having reverse engineered the stat blocks for the Squid and Kraken, I think it's still true. The Squid seems to have put all of its ranks into Perception (3 ranks + 3 class skill + 1 Wis = +7 Perception), but it still has a +10 to Swim (+2 Strength +8 racial = +10 Swim). Animals only have 2 skill points + Int modifier (min 1) for skill points, so there's no way that it could have invested ranks into both with only 2 Int. If you deconstruct the Kraken's +41 to Swim, you'll notice that the bonuses add up as follows: (+20 ranks + 3 class skill + 10 Strength). That only adds to 33, and the Kraken has to be getting the other +8 from somewhere. It doesn't have any feats to boost Swim, so my first instinct is to say that the +8 racial from having a swim speed is still in effect.
I'd just like to say that weapon proficiencies are not all that powerful as a racial ability.
The tengu get what, 1-2 more damage? At tops 3-4? For classes that don't have a full BAB?
Trust me, the tengu getting all swordlike weapons is not a big deal. The craziest thing I've done with it is make an inquisitor with a good weapon. If I hadn't been a tengu, I would lose out on some critical range and that's about it. Or I could've use a feat to grab an elven curve blade.
You basically get the benefit of one or two additional weapons tops. It's not like you could use every sword-like weapon even if you could. Comparing it to getting a feat is incorrect. It's more like getting pseudo-martial weapon proficiency, minus any reach weapons or ranged weapons.
Honestly, the tengu stuff is very weak otherwise. It's not the powerhouse that dwarf is, and it's not the elf who can turn any medium BAB class into a sniper. C'mon, they get proficiency with a bunch of melee weapons and a penalty to CON of all things!
Even if they got proficiency with all exotic weapons, you could get the benefit of two at most. And even then, you'd still be better off with getting power attack or deadly aim as a racial ability even at a permanent -1 to attacks and +2 damage.
It's the benefit of a bad feat, maybe two bad feats, and nothing more.
I'd just like to say that weapon proficiencies are not all that powerful as a racial ability.
The tengu get what, 1-2 more damage? At tops 3-4? For classes that don't have a full BAB?
Trust me, the tengu getting all swordlike weapons is not a big deal.
What you're missing is the threat range. No simple weapons have a threat range of 18+, and since threat range is usually more important than higher damage that's quite big. Essentially, Tengus without martial weapon proficiency from class gets a +1 to threat range.
Having reverse engineered the stat blocks for the Squid and Kraken, I think it's still true. The Squid seems to have put all of its ranks into Perception (3 ranks + 3 class skill + 1 Wis = +7 Perception), but it still has a +10 to Swim (+2 Strength +8 racial = +10 Swim). Animals only have 2 skill points + Int modifier (min 1) for skill points, so there's no way that it could have invested ranks into both with only 2 Int. If you deconstruct the Kraken's +41 to Swim, you'll notice that the bonuses add up as follows: (+20 ranks + 3 class skill + 10 Strength). That only adds to 33, and the Kraken has to be getting the other +8 from somewhere. It doesn't have any feats to boost Swim, so my first instinct is to say that the +8 racial from having a swim speed is still in effect.
Oh! Okay, cool. That works for me, then. Does +8 to swim seem balanced for a core race?
how much do you think being tiny is worth?
it gives:
+2 to ac
+2 to hit
+8 to stealth
-2 to all combat maneuvers
i remember reading even bigger negatives to grapples along the lines of -8 but i can't seem to find it
caring capacity of 1/2
equipment weighs 1/4 of its original
Even smaller weapons which at this point i think is a real big detriment
no reach
which means no attacks of opportunities and guarantied that you provoke one to attack some one.
this also means having to enter peoples square to diliver touch attacks. which include healing spells
so while i realize that those negitives are not as big of a deal to casters as to melee i don't think they are really all that powerful
when considering the negitives to combat manuevers which includes cmd plus the grapple disadvantage, which grapple always was a good way to deal with casters if need be, i think that they are close to equalish
as such i was thinking a 4 point ability would be fine
what do you guys think?
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I was starting a new campaign based on the Darkmoon Vale series of modules which has since been canceled. One of the guys wanted to play a Minotaur so I used these rules to come up with a whelp race of Minotaur that have a good relationship with the Dwarves of the Five King Mountains.
FIVE KING MOUNTAINS MINOTAUR
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma Minotaurs are incredibly strong and tough, but they are impulsive and gruff.
Medium Minotaurs have no penalties or bonuses due to their size.
Normal Speed Minotaurs have a base speed of 30 ft.
Darkvision Minotaurs can see in the dark up to 60 ft.
Natural Cunning Minotaurs are immune to Maze spells and effects, and receive a +2 bonus to Survival skill checks.
Natural Armor Minotaurs receive +1 natural armor bonus.
Natural Weapon Minotaurs posses a gore natural attack that inflicts 1d6 points of damage on a hit. This is a primary attack, or a secondary attack if the Minotaur uses a manufactured weapon.
Weapon Familiarity Minotaurs are proficient with battleaxes and greataxes.
Languages Minotaurs begin play speaking Common and Dwarven. Minotaurs with high intelligence scores can choose from the following bonus languages: Giant, Orc, Goblin.
+2 Constitution (+2pts)
Natural armor (+4pt)
Natural weapon (+4pt)
+2 Survival (+1pt)
Darkvision 60ft (+2pt)
Immune to maze spells (+2pt)
Weapon Familiarity (+1pt)
Negate mental stat bonus (-2pts)
-2 Intelligence (-1pt)
-2 Charisma (-1pt)
11pts
LA +0? Thoughts?
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*Race Stats*
LA +0? Thoughts?
+2 Constitution: 8 points. Since it already has a stat bonus in the physical category, it's 8 points, not two.
Natural Armor: 4 points.Natural Weapon: 4 points.
+2 Survival: 1 point.
Darkvision 60 ft: 2 points.
Immunity to Maze Spells: I'd say this is worth 0 points. It's immunity to a single spell that never comes up until high level play. It basically seems like fluff to me, like the Dwarven bonus to appraising precious metals.
Weapon Familiarity: 1 point
Negate Mental Stat Bonus: -2 points.
-2 Intelligence or Charisma: -1 point total. You seem to have forgotten that you start with a -2 penalty to one stat right off the bat, and since I don't see a Dexterity or Wisdom penalty, either Intelligence or Charisma must have been it to begin with. Thus, it's only worth -1 point total.
Overall: 18 points. I'm seeing a definite +1 LA here.
My main issue with this race is that it screams Barbarian or Fighter. Natural Armor, +2 Strength and Constitution, and penalties to two mental stats kind of restricts its options. If you wanted to make it a more versatile, I'd take out the Constitution bonus and replace it with Wisdom, which might actually be able to take this down to LA 0 with a few other adjustments.
It's meant to be a guideline. If you min-max a race, of course you're going to end up with something like that.
It's meant to be a guideline. If you min-max a race, of course you're going to end up with something like that.yeah, i know, i'm sorry :)
it was not meant as a min-max, rather i was wondering how balanced some parts are.
As said, on the whole, it's a pretty fine job. But Spell Resistance? I'd have guessed it to be 6/4 for the costs, meaning full normal Spell Resistance would cost all 10 points, instead of 6.
I apologize, i know a lot of work went into it, but some things just strike me as more powerful than the prize justifies.
Same thing with the natural fly speed.
Not even trying to min-max, i know it's supposed to be guidelines to help recreate semi-balanced variants of something different, but some things just seem too tasty for their price.
Heck, i'd pay 10 points for getting a natural fly speed complete with fluffy wings thats not subject to being dispelled etc.Really, don't get me wrong here, most things, i agree perfectly, but a few, it just doesn't feel right for me, personally.
Take it up with Paizo, really. The guide was built around the core races and the CR values of the races that give character building information in the Bestiary. Drow have CR 1/3 (which puts it on par with other core races) and have inherent SR of 6+level.
And, as umbral said, all point based systems have a potential issue with min-maxing (which, contrary to what you claim is exactly what you were doing) which is why all point based systems come with a caveat that your DM/GM needs to look at what you've made and has final say.
Now, all of that said, the guide is not the result of weeks of advanced math or anything - if you don't think the point values match the existing races and the 10 points +/-, then by all means point out where, and what change will bring it into line with the existing races. If you just disagree with the point value even though the value DOES match the races, well...
I'm currently working on a jungle-based race, and was hoping to give them tribal roles. Er, here's how I wrote it down on the description:
Tribal Role: At a young age, the majority are taught skills to fill a particular role in their tribe. The three most common roles of their tribes are hunter, craftsman, and storyteller (the keepers of their history, as their language has no written alphabet). They begin play selecting one role that cannot be changed thereafter. Each role gives a racial bonus to a particular skill, listed below:
Hunter: +2 to Survival or Knowledge (Nature)
Craftsman: +2 to one craft skill from the following; baskets, bows, carpentry, cloth, clothing, fletching, jewelry, leather, poisons, pottery, sculptures, tattoos, and traps.
Storyteller: +2 to Perform (Oratory), or Knowledge (History).
I was originally thinking this would be worth 1 point, as it's only +2 to one skill, but then it kind of hits me that it has a large list that lets the player more or less choose. (Except in the case of Craft, which is actually like saying +2 to craft, but limits their choices). Would people think this would be more worth 2 points, or still just worth 1?
Sorry to double post, but my friend gave me a really cool idea for a back story for them, which gave rise to the thought of them getting +1 caster level when casting spells of the earth descriptor. (Or in some way, give them a bonus when casting spells that are 'naturey', but not sure how to do that without just making them have caster level +1 as a druid.)
What type of point cost would THAT be? I was hoping there'd be a way to make it count as a low one, as it is VERY situational, and only actually works for a few classes, however, it'd still be powerful in those situations.
Thoughts? Once again, sorry for the double posts and all those random questions. Seems like I'm taking advantage of your peoples' kindness and patience :P Thank you all the same, though.
That tribal role thing looks like it would work better as some traits.
*Thinks*. That's not a bad thought really. Do the traits usually give +1 or +2 bonuses? I forget on that one. Though some races do generally get skill bonuses and I don't know 100% if I'm going to use traits at all or not. However, that would free up space for other abilities. Maybe if I did allow traits, and made a small list for them to use and gave them a racial thing that they must pick traits from that specific list? That may work, actually. Thoughts?
Traits are 'half feats', usually granting a +1 trait bonus to a skill or something minor, and making a skill into a class skill if it's not already.
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Hello good people. I was looking through one of my few 2e books, the awesome 'Planescape Monstrous Compendium Vol. 2' and after reading up on the Aasimar, I was inspired to make this:
Aasimar
+2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Con: Aasimars posses an otherworldly strength and are very insightful, but their bodies are frail.
Normal Speed: Aasimar have a base speed of 30 ft.
Darkvision: Aasimars can see in the dark up to 60ft. (2pts)
Keen Senses: Aasimar have a +2 racial bonus on Perception and Sense Motive checks (2 pts)
Celestial Ancestry: When an Aasimar is moved to great emotion, her heritage shines through her face like sunlight through clouds. There aren’t many evil bashers who can look an angry Aasimar in the eye. Aasimars can use Cause Fear once per day as a spell-like ability delivered as a gaze attack. (Caster level equals the Aasimar's class level.) (4 pts)
Celestial Resistance: Fire, Cold Resistance 5 (4pts)
12 pts
If you want to give this Aasimar Weapon Familiarity it should be in Greatswords, Halberds, Maces, and Longbows (especially composite Longbows)
Thoughts?
Any thoughts on the APL swap outs for racial traits?
I can't remember if I had done this or not, but I am fairly certain I was comparing some of the swap-out traits and they seemed to be somewhat balanced. I'm sure Paizo tried their best to make them slightly equivalent, otherwise people probably wouldn't use them that often.
IMO I think that, depending on the world settings you play in, you can give some races some minus for racism...
Playing a drow, a hobgobelins, a half-ogre, a tiefling might seemed a very-good idea crunch-like, but fluff-like the way people are going to react at you might be a pain in the a.. for the player (and yes, I agree, the DM must tell the player before he made his character... ;) )
That's the reason I authorize Tiefling, Drow, Half ogre and Aasimar has a lvl 0 and so far my players has not abused it... In fact I've never seen a Tiefling or a Drow... Might see some in our next campaign (an evil campaign ;p )
VoodooMike
how much do you think the fire or cold subtype costs? or immunity ? 6 maybe for immunity and 2 for those subtypes?
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VoodooMike
how much do you think the fire or cold subtype costs? or immunity ? 6 maybe for immunity and 2 for those subtypes?
The subtype grants immunity to fire or cold. Actually, I would say a subtype costs 2 as well. 6 points for the immunity to fire or cold, -4 points for the vulnerability to the other.
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I don't think this has been brought up yet, but how much would it cost for "Armor Familiarity" (automatic proficiency with all types of armor and shields, including tower shields)?
If you add together all the feats it would take a wizard to get to that point it would total up to 20 points, which is just wrong in every way.
Even if you average out how many feats each class would be getting, it comes out to 2.82 feats, which is 11.27 points. It still feels like too much.
Any thoughts?
EDIT: I wasn't considering the fact that many classes lose access to some of their class abilities when wearing armor or have to deal with arcane spell failure. I reduced how many feats could be potentially beneficial to each class accordingly and came up with an average benefit of 0.82 feats, which is 3.27 points. Rounding up that's 1 feat for 4 points.
Does that seem appropriate?
Bumping this thread because I had to dig through my history to find it.
Voodoo Mike, seeing as how some people are bumping the article to keep it around, would you care to add this as an article to the Pathfinder Database? I'd even create a separate section for how-to articles for stuff like this.
Voodoo Mike, seeing as how some people are bumping the article to keep it around, would you care to add this as an article to the Pathfinder Database? I'd even create a separate section for how-to articles for stuff like this.
+1
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what would be the build for a centaur?
To the best of my understanding, the system is only meant for races on par with humans, elves, dwarves, etc. Centaurs don't fit in the system because they're so much more powerful than the core seven. But if I had to guess (ignoring the racial hit dice)...
+4 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, +4 Wisdom, +2 Charisma: 58 points. Way out of the park already.
50 foot speed: I'd go with 2 points.
Large Size/Undersized Weapons: No value for this in the system, but this is sort of like a reverse Powerful Build. Probably -4.
Darkvision 60 ft: 2 points.
Monstrous Humanoid Type: I'd value this at 4. It means centaurs are immune to Hold Person, Charm Person, and other stuff that only affects humanoids.
Total: 62 points without even counting the racial hit dice.
This system isn't built to include monstrous races like centaurs. It's meant to evaluate races that don't have a level adjustment or anything. So a centaur doesn't even work with it.
Helpful Bump
Anyone have a good and workable idea on how to inject more powerful races?
I allow certain, slightly more, powerful races to be taken at a point cost. Right now, this is a 5 or 10 point hit, allowing the player to take a 'weaker' version of the race (I wish I could lay hands on the GURPS 'justification' for this!), without overpowering the 'mere-mortals'. As yet, 3 players are running Elves (5 point) in one game and actually take smug satisfaction in their having to pay more for their race than the 'lesser races' chosen by others.
These 'packages' generally incorporate several nice thing (Stat bumps, bonuses, etc) along with at least one negative feature that often 'makes' the race stand out. My Elves have problems with Cold Iron and Adamantium. Trolls, a la Runequest and Tolkien, are Slowed by sunlight/day. Rulik, a centauroid goat race have to deal with Large bodies in a Medium world. A few cost more simply to represent their rarity in the world.
what would be the build for a centaur?
You could go for a "Centaur Lite" using the Bariaur as an example from the Planar Handbook.
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what would be the build for a centaur?You could go for a "Centaur Lite" using the Bariaur as an example from the Planar Handbook.
Ah, "Centaur Lite." Now that's something this system can do. Let me take a stab at it. I'm not really familiar with the Planar Handbook, so this is completely off the top of my head.
+2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, -2 Intelligence: Centaurs are strong and close to nature, but their reliance on tradition and nature has stifled their creative and logical thinking. 0 points
Medium: Centaurs are medium-sized creatures, and thus have no special bonuses or penalties related to their size. 0 points.
Horse-like build: Centaurs have the lower body of a horse, which increases their base land speed to 50 feet. As quadrupeds, they can carry 1 and 1/2 times as much as a biped (see Core Rulebook page 170). 2 points.
Creature of Nature: Centaurs gain a +2 racial bonus on Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks. 2 points.
Darkvision: Centaurs gain Darkvision out to 60 feet. 2 points.
Protected by Nature: Centaurs are watched over and protected by the natural spirits of the world. As such, they gain a +1 bonus on all saving throws. 4 points.
Total: 10 points.
Horse-like build: Centaurs have the lower body of a horse, which increases their base land speed to 50 feet. As quadrupeds, they can carry 1 and 1/2 times as much as a biped (see Core Rulebook page 170). 2 points.
Losing 10 feet of land speed (ie 20 feet) is a -4 drawback. I really doubt land speed +20 is only worth +2 especially since it also gives them a higher carrying capacity.
Losing 10 feet of land speed (ie 20 feet) is a -4 drawback. I really doubt land speed +20 is only worth +2 especially since it also gives them a higher carrying capacity.
Horse-like build: Centaurs have the lower body of a horse, which increases their base land speed to 50 feet. As quadrupeds, they can carry 1 and 1/2 times as much as a biped (see Core Rulebook page 170). 2 points.
I agree speed effects mobility, Greatly. i think that 4 points for 40 speed sounds more reasonable.
Centaur Build
+ 20 speed might be a bit much, but I could see a 40 ft. Movement. It could be balanced out by allowing the Centaur to only wear Barding as opposed to Armor. Also, they couldn't wear boots.
Or maybe Centaur Armor costs more than armor for other Medium creatures. Maybe x1.5 the cost?
Oh, I like the idea of a playable centaur (centaur lite). Maybe even make it a Half-Centaur?
and centaur is monstrous humanoid whats the cost for that?
Personally I just wouldn't have this version of a centaur count as a monstrous humanoid, but that's just me.
Thanks for the guidelines. I used them to help me make an alternate version of the Goblin for PC use. It's basically a Goblin who has joined normal society, living in urban cities in a civilized manner instead of being all savage and stuff in caves and such.
Goblin (Civilized) Racial Traits
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Strength: Though not as fast as their savage counterparts, they are still quite agile. Their bodies are still weak, but they know how to present themselves better and are very intelligent in comparison. (+0 Points)
Small: Goblins are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a -1 penalty to their CMB and CMD, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks. (+0 Points)
Fast: Goblins are fast for their size, and have a base speed of 30 feet. (+0 Points)
Darkvision: Goblins can see in the dark up to 60 feet. (+2 Points)
Wary: Goblins gain a +1 Dodge bonus to AC. (+4 Points)
Blend In: Goblins receive a +2 racial bonus on Disguise and Stealth skill checks. (+2 Points)
Skilled: Goblins gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level. (+2 Points)
Weapon Familiarity: Goblins treat any weapon with the word "goblin" in its name as a martial weapon. (+0 Points)
Languages: Goblins begin play speaking Common and Goblin. Goblins with high Intelligence scores can choose any of these bonus languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Gnoll, Gnome, Halfling, Orc. Unlike most Goblins, this variety is not illiterate. (+0 Points)
(10 Points Total)
What do you think?