I'm playing in a forum game right now with all friends from high school in a few different cities, to get the original group together for some dnd, and I've found it refreshingly fun in that it allows for a deeper level of role-playing not easily achieved in an in-person game (ex. being able to post internal thoughts about situations). We still have a dm, still do battles with html battle maps, ect.
So our group has started in prison, captured by slavers of an evil country after their unjust invasion of our country. After discussions and plots, we are afforded an opportunity to escape, which we agree to. Before doing so we are accosted by a guard to take one person to be tortured today. Figuring that he is the toughest via his class fort, hp's, and ability to heal himself (2nd level), the paladin draws the ire of the guard believing he has the best chance of making it out of the torture in fighting condition. The neutral warmage thwarts his attempt in derision of the guard, and we both end up going. Great.
Well in the cell I manage to avoid torture by reasoning, rather well I believe, with the guard and making, if you'll believe this, friends with them. The warmage does not do too well, and gets tortured like crazy, eventually signing a Faustian pact ala the Nine Hells 3.5 book, making him Law Evil.
To summarize, during our escape I find out and he admits signing his soul away. After discussion he decides to go the other way in the miles huge complex, stating he's been no bother to us, and tries to leave, which is my dilemma. In our group, despite the fantasy of dnd, we go for real emotional responses and legitimate character reactions. I'm not hardcore exalted, but being a reasonable and righteous paladin, I'm trying to decide what to do. I can strike him down beings that he has damned his soul and may sell us away to evil men, which could compromise our escape from prison (a huge miles large complex with magical and devil'ish defenses). The dm has stated it is not a paladin powers lose situation if I did, but it's my decision, and the player of the warmage is willing to accept my decision and make a new character if I do. If the warmage is refusing to seek redemption and attempts to leave, am I justified in laying him low?
He was tortured into signing his soul away?
That seems unfair.
I say drag him along and try to redeem him somehow.
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It really depends- If your characters have known each other for a significant amount of time, then a paladin would be more likely to continually seek to reform his companion, but would not adventure with him. Think Friday-night philosophical discussions over chess.
If he has saved your life at any point, you would be more justified with an exile situation (ie. I won't kill you, but I won't help you... get out of my sight). After all, mercy is one of the Paladin's big things, is it not?
In my opinion, random merciless slaughter of anything that glows red on your radar seems kinda CE to me... Self-defense ("You leave me little choice") and retribution ("You burned down an entire Orphanage full of children... May you be judged for your misdeeds in the next life") are generally good reasons for a paladin to kill, but just the knowledge that they are evil ("He's probably done something that merits death...") is not enough.
So, I think that his character doesn't necessarily need to be executed, but since he cannot continue with the paladin (due to the classes inherent restrictions) he should go ahead and make a new character.
Sorry I was unclear about a couple points. I'm the paladin, he's the warmage who sold his soul. To be straight after he was tortured a small devilish creature convinced him to sell his soul in exchange for "power" that would keep this kind of thing from happening again. In this case personal training with some magister of the evil country. So he was not tortured into signing the contract, just manipulated which per the Nine Hells book, is perfectly legit for a devil to do.
I agree with your comments about mercy, that's an important aspect of being good. My concern is that in the middle of this evil complex, he's either going to get killed or sign up with the bad guys, there aren't many other possibilities. To be clear I do not know him prior to our shared imprisonment. Do these clarifications help at all?
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There are some who would interpret the paladin's code to rid the world of evil literally and say that the paladin could destroy this LE creature and be done with it. I would accept this in my game.
There are others who think that until the creature has actually performed an evil act -- and been caught in it -- that they can be redeemed and the paladin should withhold final judgment until that outcome is known. I would accept this in my game as well.
About the only thing I wouldn't accept is a conflicted paladin who doesn't know what to do and just sort of straggles along, going with the flow. That's not the kind of fortitude that I think paladins are made of.
For alignment questions you're best off asking your GM. Tell them what you're considering and describe why you can see it going either way and ask them. You should keep it a "PC quandary" and not a "player quandary" so that the GM can give your PC in-game clues (visions, dreams, etc) and help preserve the immersion.
Whatever happens, good luck and have fun with it. :)
There are some who would interpret the paladin's code to rid the world of evil literally and say that the paladin could destroy this LE creature and be done with it. I would accept this in my game.
There are others who think that until the creature has actually performed an evil act -- and been caught in it -- that they can be redeemed and the paladin should withhold final judgment until that outcome is known. I would accept this in my game as well.
About the only thing I wouldn't accept is a conflicted paladin who doesn't know what to do and just sort of straggles along, going with the flow. That's not the kind of fortitude that I think paladins are made of.
For alignment questions you're best off asking your GM. Tell them what you're considering and describe why you can see it going either way and ask them. You should keep it a "PC quandary" and not a "player quandary" so that the GM can give your PC in-game clues (visions, dreams, etc) and help preserve the immersion.
Whatever happens, good luck and have fun with it. :)
I think that's really good advise. I have somewhat conflicting views of the paladin, whom is one of my favorites to play. The paladin should be merciful and will to help people towards the righteous path. He also needs to be the arbiter of justice that the evil and the wicked should fear, willing and able to meet out justice when necessary. Your right that the paladin himself should not be wavering, he should be strong and sure. I however, am a bit up in the air, so I was just looking for some advise. Thanks!
Sorry I was unclear about a couple points. I'm the paladin, he's the warmage who sold his soul. To be straight after he was tortured a small devilish creature convinced him to sell his soul in exchange for "power" that would keep this kind of thing from happening again. In this case personal training with some magister of the evil country. So he was not tortured into signing the contract, just manipulated which per the Nine Hells book, is perfectly legit for a devil to do.
I agree with your comments about mercy, that's an important aspect of being good. My concern is that in the middle of this evil complex, he's either going to get killed or sign up with the bad guys, there aren't many other possibilities. To be clear I do not know him prior to our shared imprisonment. Do these clarifications help at all?
Signing a contract with a devil does not automatically make you evil. It does however mark you as not being wise. If you did not know him, then he was never your friend so how is he betraying you? If he is not your friend then how did you find out about the contract? That is not information I would give to anyone but my closest friends. Anyone else would judge, and judge harshly which is what you seem to be doing, not that I can blame you right now.
If there is a wizard/sorcerer in the group I would tell him to submit to a Geas. If he did not agree to the geas or it was not available I would tell him to give me a good reason as to why he is going out on his own rather than with us since there is safety in numbers. If his answer is not sufficient I would inform him that he tags along or dies(roll initiative).
PS: I understand you probably used detect evil to find out that he was evil. The not auto-evil thing was just an idea I wanted to throw out there.
Normally you'd be right, but in the Tyrants of the Nine Hells 3.5 book which we use for inspiration or straight up rules, the guidelines provide two kinds of Faustian pacts. Sadly, our foolish mage signed the worst kind which makes you Law Evil automatically. They only way out of the pact is to role-play your alignment back to good, but that information is pretty rare and beyond the knowledge of a 2nd lvl paladin. We don't have access to most magic at this level, and recall, we're in the middle of an escape from this very deadly prison. I like your idea to give him the chance to go with us or fight, I can see that working out well.
As to how I found out I used detect evil and the DM determined his aura was weak (not being a cleric/pally aura) but being familiar with devils I was still picking some of that up from him. When confronted he admitted his error.
Thanks for the advice, in case anyone is interested I went with the following response.
Swinging the greatsword down and behind himself, Ramireous reached grabbed Markus by the shoulder, and walked a circle around the man to cut him off.
"I'm not going to cut you down Markus, but I suspect that you want me to. You haven't betrayed me or done me wrong, and you have not performed any evil acts that you've mentioned, so I have no right to kill you for making a bad decision. Walking away isn't the answer though, there's nothing down that hallway you haven't seen. Just death and evil. There's nothing that way, but as Katsurou said, there's hope where we are headed, someone could know something that could save you. Maybe you can't save yourself, maybe you can, but you can fight the good fight. If you die now, with your soul owed to those things, it's over. Come with us."
Thanks for the advice, in case anyone is interested I went with the following response.
Swinging the greatsword down and behind himself, Ramireous reached grabbed Markus by the shoulder, and walked a circle around the man to cut him off.
"I'm not going to cut you down Markus, but I suspect that you want me to. You haven't betrayed me or done me wrong, and you have not performed any evil acts that you've mentioned, so I have no right to kill you for making a bad decision. Walking away isn't the answer though, there's nothing down that hallway you haven't seen. Just death and evil. There's nothing that way, but as Katsurou said, there's hope where we are headed, someone could know something that could save you. Maybe you can't save yourself, maybe you can, but you can fight the good fight. If you die now, with your soul owed to those things, it's over. Come with us."
I hope it works out for you both.
Incidentally, the 3.5 book about devils - I forget which one - stats that you can't be coerciered or forced into signing a pact - it has to be of your own free will. A pact signed under force can be contested after you die, allowing your soul to remain your own, since you didn't have an option in the first place.
To make it a lighter option rather then "HAH HAH DOESN'T WORK," have the paladin talk to the imp. Use diplomacy. Convince the imp that the pact is unofficial and un-lawful and, thus, it's in the imp's best interest to cancel it, least he anger his devil masters with a bad pact.
I myself regularly use Tyrants Of The Nine Hells and Hordes Of The Abyss sourcebooks (though it annoyed me there wasnt a third codex for Yugoloths...thanks alot WoTC)...lol, they can be lots of fun to be sure.
Remember, Faustian Pacts can be legally wrangled out of in a Baatezu court before a Baatezu judge, with the right resources someone can bribe their way out of it or hire a decent Baatezu lawyer to win the case, which is more likely if the contract was signed under compulsion, torture or duress. But someone who signs for a Pact Certain is another kettle of fish because they knowingly made the bargain in exchange for dark benefits.
But the odds of a Paladin going to Hell to stand before a Baatezu judge to argue his case are pretty slim...on the whole good and evil, black and white aligment thing....but if you Planescaped it, and the Paladin is aware of the much more important dynamic that overshadows the fight of good vs evil...which is law versus chaos (the blood war).
Paladins in this version are more greyer than in 3.5, with more wiggle room, it'd be possible but unlikely they'd go all the way to hell to fight their legal case in this endeavor.
Normally you'd be right, but in the Tyrants of the Nine Hells 3.5 book which we use for inspiration or straight up rules, the guidelines provide two kinds of Faustian pacts. Sadly, our foolish mage signed the worst kind which makes you Law Evil automatically. They only way out of the pact is to role-play your alignment back to good, but that information is pretty rare and beyond the knowledge of a 2nd lvl paladin. We don't have access to most magic at this level, and recall, we're in the middle of an escape from this very deadly prison. I like your idea to give him the chance to go with us or fight, I can see that working out well.
As to how I found out I used detect evil and the DM determined his aura was weak (not being a cleric/pally aura) but being familiar with devils I was still picking some of that up from him. When confronted he admitted his error.
2nd level, ouch. I do have the book, and I do remember the "other" contract. I assumed a DM would not push a player into that direction because I would not do it at the beginning of a game. I shall not assume again. He did tell the truth so there is some hope for him, but then again the greatest deceptions contain some measure of truth. He would still have to choose between tagging along or coming with us. What did he agree to do to fulfill his end of the contract?
Incidentally, the 3.5 book about devils - I forget which one - stats that you can't be coerciered or forced into signing a pact - it has to be of your own free will. A pact signed under force can be contested after you die, allowing your soul to remain your own, since you didn't have an option in the first place.
To make it a lighter option rather then "HAH HAH DOESN'T WORK," have the paladin talk to the imp. Use diplomacy. Convince the imp that the pact is unofficial and un-lawful and, thus, it's in the imp's best interest to cancel it, least he anger his devil masters with a bad pact.
Prof C for the save. I do remember that devils can get in trouble for violating those contracts. If someone in the party has knowledge (planes) they can probably make a check to obtain(remember) this information.
I myself regularly use Tyrants Of The Nine Hells and Hordes Of The Abyss sourcebooks (though it annoyed me there wasnt a third codex for Yugoloths...thanks alot WoTC)...lol, they can be lots of fun to be sure.
Remember, Faustian Pacts can be legally wrangled out of in a Baatezu court before a Baatezu judge, with the right resources someone can bribe their way out of it or hire a decent Baatezu lawyer to win the case, which is more likely if the contract was signed under compulsion, torture or duress. But someone who signs for a Pact Certain is another kettle of fish because they knowingly made the bargain in exchange for dark benefits.
But the odds of a Paladin going to Hell to stand before a Baatezu judge to argue his case are pretty slim...on the whole good and evil, black and white aligment thing....but if you Planescaped it, and the Paladin is aware of the much more important dynamic that overshadows the fight of good vs evil...which is law versus chaos (the blood war).
Paladins in this version are more greyer than in 3.5, with more wiggle room, it'd be possible but unlikely they'd go all the way to hell to fight their legal case in this endeavor.
The Yugos kind of got a bad deal as far as exposure. I think they would have been very interesting to work with. I hate dealing with NE as a player since I never know what they will do, but that is what makes then intesting.
Prof C for the save. I do remember that devils can get in trouble for violating those contracts. If someone in the party has knowledge (planes) they can probably make a check to obtain(remember) this information.Incidentally, the 3.5 book about devils - I forget which one - stats that you can't be coerciered or forced into signing a pact - it has to be of your own free will. A pact signed under force can be contested after you die, allowing your soul to remain your own, since you didn't have an option in the first place.
To make it a lighter option rather then "HAH HAH DOESN'T WORK," have the paladin talk to the imp. Use diplomacy. Convince the imp that the pact is unofficial and un-lawful and, thus, it's in the imp's best interest to cancel it, least he anger his devil masters with a bad pact.
Thats true...if you can proove it, which is tricky. Baatezu's are tricky customers and the Baatezu judges doubly so, but you could bribe them if you have the cash or the favors and you could also hire yourself a decent lawyer (preferably a Baatezu one) to help you out for a price.
Faustian Pacts are made by deception, compulsion and so forth and are sneaky but easy to wrangle yourself out of if you know what your doing, assuming you get before the Judge in a Baatezu court to argue your case if you can proove you were magically compelled or physically forced to sign it.
Pact Certain is a hopeless endeavor, because someone sold their soul knowingly to gain wealth, power or some other benefit.
Its not uncommon for Devils, especially the one who made the pact i the first place to try and orchestrate the characters death so to quickly collect on their 'prizes', and often do so cunningly by using third parties, or causing 'accidents' and so forth.
"Harvester Devils" in particular are good at collecting souls through these kinds of pacts, more or less Baatezu Lawyers themselves. Prooving wrongdoing on their part is a light penalty at best, and minor humiliation for the Baatezu in question but theyre unlikely to suffer any real consequences being they know the beaucracy there better than anyone.
At least your player's character didn't sign away his soul to save 100gp on a magical item in a market in the Abyss like our sorcerer did. *rolls eyes*
At least your player's character didn't sign away his soul to save 100gp on a magical item in a market in the Abyss like our sorcerer did. *rolls eyes*
I get images of Bart Simpson selling his soul to Milhouse for $5.00.
I hope it works out for you both.Thanks for the advice, in case anyone is interested I went with the following response.
Swinging the greatsword down and behind himself, Ramireous reached grabbed Markus by the shoulder, and walked a circle around the man to cut him off.
"I'm not going to cut you down Markus, but I suspect that you want me to. You haven't betrayed me or done me wrong, and you have not performed any evil acts that you've mentioned, so I have no right to kill you for making a bad decision. Walking away isn't the answer though, there's nothing down that hallway you haven't seen. Just death and evil. There's nothing that way, but as Katsurou said, there's hope where we are headed, someone could know something that could save you. Maybe you can't save yourself, maybe you can, but you can fight the good fight. If you die now, with your soul owed to those things, it's over. Come with us."
That kinda sounds like "and then hot kissage ensued". :p
A Paladin striking down someone only because they register as chaotic evil runs the risk of going down the Miko Miyazaki path. (for you Order of the Stick) fans. In the Dragon Empire setting alignment detection itself does not justify violence without evidence of actual wrongdoing. (the ruling also protects paladins themselves in a way since the Empire is rapidly heading down the Lawful Evil route)
The individual already committed an evil act and may act against the party. That is different than walking into a bar and smiting someone who just registers as evil, but may not be a threat.
I see it as being proactive instead of reactive.PS: Things like this are why I will never play a paladin :)
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Thanks for the advice, in case anyone is interested I went with the following response.
Swinging the greatsword down and behind himself, Ramireous reached grabbed Markus by the shoulder, and walked a circle around the man to cut him off.
"I'm not going to cut you down Markus, but I suspect that you want me to. You haven't betrayed me or done me wrong, and you have not performed any evil acts that you've mentioned, so I have no right to kill you for making a bad decision. Walking away isn't the answer though, there's nothing down that hallway you haven't seen. Just death and evil. There's nothing that way, but as Katsurou said, there's hope where we are headed, someone could know something that could save you. Maybe you can't save yourself, maybe you can, but you can fight the good fight. If you die now, with your soul owed to those things, it's over. Come with us."
Well Done. Thank you for not going the Lawful Stupid route. This is playing a paladin at its finest. As a fan of paladins my self, I live for these moments. Just remember, now that you've "adopted the puppy", so to speak, it's your responsibility to take care of him. Good luck and enjoy your game.
Thanks for the advice, in case anyone is interested I went with the following response.
Swinging the greatsword down and behind himself, Ramireous reached grabbed Markus by the shoulder, and walked a circle around the man to cut him off.
"I'm not going to cut you down Markus, but I suspect that you want me to. You haven't betrayed me or done me wrong, and you have not performed any evil acts that you've mentioned, so I have no right to kill you for making a bad decision. Walking away isn't the answer though, there's nothing down that hallway you haven't seen. Just death and evil. There's nothing that way, but as Katsurou said, there's hope where we are headed, someone could know something that could save you. Maybe you can't save yourself, maybe you can, but you can fight the good fight. If you die now, with your soul owed to those things, it's over. Come with us."
Hilarity Ensues
A Paladin striking down someone only because they register as chaotic evil runs the risk of going down the Miko Miyazaki path. (for you Order of the Stick) fans. In the Dragon Empire setting alignment detection itself does not justify violence without evidence of actual wrongdoing. (the ruling also protects paladins themselves in a way since the Empire is rapidly heading down the Lawful Evil route)The individual already committed an evil act and may act against the party. That is different than walking into a bar and smiting someone who just registers as evil, but may not be a threat.
I see it as being proactive instead of reactive.PS: Things like this are why I will never play a paladin :)
He made a deal with the devil for power under duress. Sure, that automatically turns him LE on the D&D alignment roulette wheel of "how one should act" but it's a bit unfair. I don't see why it should changes how he acts or who he is. It's more of a Pragmatic Evil act and I don't see why he should act LE in the future because of it.
It's far more likely for the LE guy in the bar to act against the party than your party member who is LE to save his ass. Hell, the CN party member is just as much or more likely to sell the party down the river as an LE character. More so probably. And a Paladin can't do SQUAT against a CN character.
Besides, if you think the Faustian Deal guy is going to "turn against the party," Geas or Quest him.
That's abrogation of a person's choice, unless he volountary takes the quest or possibly the application of a Mark of Justice. (Belkar Bitterleaf anyone?)
Besides, if you think the Faustian Deal guy is going to "turn against the party," Geas or Quest him.
Hey, we are discussing killing a party member because he made a deal with the devil under duress and thus might try to out and out kill the party in the future (assumingly for no reason). An involuntary Geas/Quest is WAY down the ladder of completely insane responses.
Turned out pretty well, I convinced the other character to stay with us and keep at it, so one small victory for paladin diplomacy eh? Two for me, I also convinced my torturer she was headed down the wrong path in life, but to be honest, I got lucky on that one. Thanks for the help with the dilemma though, you were all very insightful!
Here was the warmage's response, it made me feel more paladin-like.
"Markus just stood there dumbfounded.
Why does this man care so much?
He had never seen someone care about another person as this man does about him. It was mind numbing, should he go back down the corridor and meet his dark contract altered destiny? Or should he stay and as Ramireous so says, fight the good fight? He did like the fighting, there was enjoyment in it. The chaos of it. The unpredictability of combat. The Lawfulness of inputing your commands on the battle field, your will.
He loved it.
Would he love what was down the corridor?
Magic, he loved magic too, the combination of Magic and Battle was what Markus lived for. Magic was the all powerful warm bosom for which he yearned to be embraced by. He hoped everyday he could all but reach down and touch a little of it, that it may lift him up and fill him with its warm energy. Its life sustaining and powerful energy....
But if he was dead and his soul....well he could'nt do that...
That was what Markus wanted more than anything, the pursuit of Magic. He had dreams of being lifted up by the edding currents of the weave, lying there he would watch in amazement as his form slowly shifted into the weave itself. It was heaven.....
He had to stay...
He must stay and fight...
He would not let the Devils win his soul from him...
Markus looked at Ramireous:
"I will stay with you. I know you do not trust me." with this he looks at everyone.
"But I am willing to do as I must by your will to undo this wrong."
He leaves his statement hanging in the air with the thrumming of the ritual."
Paladins have just as many issues with Chaotic characters as they should do with Evil characters.
While Paladins are a little greyer in this version (for ease of play), they are more like 2nd Edition Planescapes Paladins than 3.5's Lawful Stupid variety.
In 2nd Edition Planescapes, Paladins had to frequently traffic with Ta'anari, Yugloths and Baatezu, especially in Sigil. But the 'big picture' wasnt about the struggle of good versus evil (an old cliche), but with the larger, universal eclipsing Blood War of Devils (Law) versus Ta'anari (Chaotic), with Angels, Archons, Devas and Eldarin helping out whatever side happened to share the Lawful/Chaotic component of their alignment...but the fact they were still Good alignment, they never directly aided them, or put themselves in harms way, they just offered 'loose assistance' to the side they'd prefer to see come out on top.
Paladins in Planescapes tended be along the same lines...if he walked around Sigil waving his hand around using Detect Evil, half of the people/creatures in the street would register, if he wanted to be some leatherhead from the prime and charge in there trying to smite everything he saw, he'd be cleaved from crotch to sternum in no time flat and deservedly so.
That being said, he doesnt have to LIKE the creatures he encounters, especially if he isnt able to defeat the type of evil he sees in places like that, but he can work in the longterm to undermine said devils/demons/yugloths plans to corrupt or kill in the Prime Material World which is as good as facing them in combat, and still allows him to retain his alignment and powers as long as he truly holds onto his ideals for the longterm.
Thanks to the 'greyer' Paladin in Pathfinder, they can veture with bad guys as long as they are pursuing a further greater goal versus a greater evil. That being said, they would through roleplay, try to convert Chaotic and Evil alignment characters since both represent a debasement of society that he/she opposes.
A Chaotic character that steals from others would get less trouble perhap if they were stealing for a Good purpose, but a Paladin would work to 'educate' his companion as they travelled, and as for dealing with CN and CE characters who do the same thing, the Paladin would likely be much sterner, threatening to enact the letter of the law against especially evil characters who flaunt the law for evil gains.
That and Evil alignments of other kinds such as LE and NE are candidates for such 're-education', with the Paladin trying to save their souls...but he wouldnt blindly trust them, he'd keep his eyes on them as much as he could.
...if he walked around Sigil waving his hand around using Detect Evil, half of the people/creatures in the street would register, if he wanted to be some leatherhead from the prime and charge in there trying to smite everything he saw, he'd be cleaved from crotch to sternum in no time flat and deservedly so.
If your GM's game makes any sense at all, then this would be true in most any city (or other large populous region) the characters decide to visit.
Eberron was like that. The game designers openly admitted that a little over half the campaign's population had evil alignment.
When you really come down to it, most people in real life are likely neutral or evil. true goodness is a rarity anywhere.