When you're crafting or dealing with magic, you're always under threat, because magic is never a routine operation. It's skittish and downright dangerous and part of the difficulty is ensuring that you're not blowing yourself up instead. In short magical operations are never a casual skill that's why you can't take 10 or 20 on a Use Magic Device check.
Seems to me like you are making up risks where none are mentioned (in other words, you are simply over-thinking things).
When you're crafting or dealing with magic, you're always under threat, because magic is never a routine operation. It's skittish and downright dangerous and part of the difficulty is ensuring that you're not blowing yourself up instead. In short magical operations are never a casual skill that's why you can't take 10 or 20 on a Use Magic Device check.
I have never ever allowed anyone to take 10 on a magical operation unless the operation in question is specifically sanctioned to do so by a particular class or item ability. Even by standard rules taking 10 is when you're doing something under normal conditions, leaving out a prerequisite counts as experimentation, i.e. risky buisness, so the "Take 10" rule does not apply.Again, you are misunderstanding the take 10 rules and confusing them with the take 20 rules.
You *can* take 10 on skills where you might have a failure and consequences thereby.
You *cannot* take 10 when being threatened or the like. I highly doubt you are trying to craft items while in melee, so I think that you are off here...
-James
Perhaps you should read the example of taking 10 in the book then. Its about a guy climbing a cliff over his doom. He can take his time though, so he can take 10. When a goblin shows up, he is now under threat, so he can no longer take 10.
There is nothing preventing you from crafting carefully and taking your time, so taking 10 is allowed.
When you're crafting or dealing with magic, you're always under threat, because magic is never a routine operation. It's skittish and downright dangerous and part of the difficulty is ensuring that you're not blowing yourself up instead. In short magical operations are never a casual skill that's why you can't take 10 or 20 on a Use Magic Device check.
While I think it's a fine interpretation and wouldn't mind playing in a game that uses it, do you have any actual rules references that support you? I mean, you can't really blow yourself up with magic under the rules, even if you fail a spell due to ASF or deafness or whatever.
Also, you CAN take 10 on dangerous operations, at least in 3.5 and I don't think that has changed. When you can't take 10, is basically when you're threatened as in someone is actively trying to hurt you in some way. Threatened as in, an outside source threatens you.
EDIT: Remember, taking 10 isn't "trying until you succeed" but simply "doing it in a methodic and careful way". You aren't hindered in taking 10 because you might fail the roll, you're hindered only if you're stressed because if you take too long, something will kill you.
Well, I think his argument doesn't rest on the "being attacked at the time" point, but rather on the "magic is unpredictable" point. Looking at Use Magic Device as an inspiration does not seem so far-fetched to me.
But I think the problem here is that there don't seem to be clear rules about what happens if you fail your check by, say, 5 or more. Are your components lost or do you get to try again one level later or somesuch? Or can you just roll once again one day later?
If you have an imminent danger of losing several thousands of gold pieces, I'd sure as hell say that taking 10 isn't allowed, both for it being a stressful situation and the unpredictability of magic.
But if you are in no danger of losing all that money and tons of downtime, then sure, taking 10 should be fine.
As I noted in my post on page 5, my experience with archers being a bit overpowered isn't based on theorycrafting or just running the numbers, it's based on hard, at the table playtest experience, both as a DM and as a player.
I hope you are not assuming that my opinion is not based on play experience. :)
I had a player with an uber archer in my last campaign… while he could put out gobs of damage at range, if he tried it in melee, he would get slaughtered. His main defensive tactics were: 1) don't allow yourself to be caught in melee and 2) if in melee, move out of it ASAP. He could usually achieve these not because he was too good/did a lot of damage before enemies could close… it was because other PC allies could keep enemies at bay.
BTW, a group of PCs vs. one foe (be it a BBEG or not) is a bad match-up in favor of the PCs, whether one of the PCs is an uber-archer or not.
If you have an imminent danger of losing several thousands of gold pieces, I'd sure as hell say that taking 10 isn't allowed, both for it being a stressful situation and the unpredictability of magic.
But in imminent danger of falling 200 feet to your death is fine?
The effect of failure isn't important in the case of taking 10.
If you have an imminent danger of losing several thousands of gold pieces, I'd sure as hell say that taking 10 isn't allowed, both for it being a stressful situation and the unpredictability of magic.But in imminent danger of falling 200 feet to your death is fine?
The effect of failure isn't important in the case of taking 10.
Y'know, I distinctly remember taking 10 to be only possible if there wasn't a stressful situation, not only when being attacked. Could be that it was from the Star Wars Saga boards and didn't apply to D&D, but I'd wonder if it really was that different in all those d20 editions.
Well, let's just check, since I own all those books.
The exact wording in Star Wars Saga is "When you're not in a rush and not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10."
In 3.5 it is "when your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10".
In Pathfinder it is "When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10."
Sounds all pretty similar. And every version mentions that "distraction" alone can suffice as a reason not to allow taking 10.
So, the question comes back to "is the possibility of losing thousands of gold pieces a distraction" and "is magic so unpredictable that taking 10 is not possible, as with Use Magic Device".
Right alongside of "Can you even lose your magical ingredients when borking up the skill check?"
I was curious about the taking 10 on crafting magic items also since there is still a good chance for failure. It is for purposes where rolling a one won't cause anything bad to happens since it assumes you rolled 10 times to get that 10.
On another note the item creation rules and the feat section don't agree on the rules for item creation. One is 5+caster level, and the other supports 10+ caster level. This is just something I don't know if you knew about so if you have items created in your games you can decide which one to go by.
The DC is 5+ caster level. It has been cleared up a couple times, but I don't really feel like searching for it.
You don't need to be the caster level of the item, you just need to be able to hit the DC. In this case, a spellcraft DC of 27 (5+17CL+5No Wish) I have seen 1st lvl characters who can hit that. By lvl 10 you can take 10 to do it and auto-succeed.
I will look for the clarification then, since the rules as I read them are in disagreement, and the 10 does seem more reasonable.
Well, I think his argument doesn't rest on the "being attacked at the time" point, but rather on the "magic is unpredictable" point. Looking at Use Magic Device as an inspiration does not seem so far-fetched to me.
But the Use Magic Device rules are based on "unfamiliar magic is unpredictable."
Well, I think his argument doesn't rest on the "being attacked at the time" point, but rather on the "magic is unpredictable" point. Looking at Use Magic Device as an inspiration does not seem so far-fetched to me.But the Use Magic Device rules are based on "unfamiliar magic is unpredictable."
Uh, that is not exactly reflected in the skill description. As in "not at all".
OTOH, neither is that you can't take 10 because magic itself is "unpredictable". So take that for what's it's worth.
When you're crafting or dealing with magic, you're always under threat, because magic is never a routine operation. It's skittish and downright dangerous and part of the difficulty is ensuring that you're not blowing yourself up instead. In short magical operations are never a casual skill that's why you can't take 10 or 20 on a Use Magic Device check.Seems to me like you are making up risks where none are mentioned (in other words, you are simply over-thinking things).
Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10.
I think threats would include possible failure, and if you fail a check the material is wasted. I would think bad things happening would prevent
taking a 10.
edit:changed thing to think
When you're crafting or dealing with magic, you're always under threat, because magic is never a routine operation. It's skittish and downright dangerous and part of the difficulty is ensuring that you're not blowing yourself up instead. In short magical operations are never a casual skill that's why you can't take 10 or 20 on a Use Magic Device check.Seems to me like you are making up risks where none are mentioned (in other words, you are simply over-thinking things).Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10.
I think threats would include possible failure, and if you fail a check the material is wasted. I would thing bad things happening would prevent taking a 10.
Except that when climbing a cliff you can take 10, based off the description of taking 10 in the rulebook. Tell me falling 200 ft to your doom in not a possible failure.
Well, I think his argument doesn't rest on the "being attacked at the time" point, but rather on the "magic is unpredictable" point. Looking at Use Magic Device as an inspiration does not seem so far-fetched to me.But the Use Magic Device rules are based on "unfamiliar magic is unpredictable."Uh, that is not exactly reflected in the skill description. As in "not at all".
OTOH, neither is that you can't take 10 because magic itself is "unpredictable". So take that for what's it's worth.
You don't need the Use Magic Device skill to activate devices that contain magic you already know.
Except that when climbing a cliff you can take 10, based off the description of taking 10 in the rulebook. Tell me falling 200 ft to your doom in not a possible failure.When you're crafting or dealing with magic, you're always under threat, because magic is never a routine operation. It's skittish and downright dangerous and part of the difficulty is ensuring that you're not blowing yourself up instead. In short magical operations are never a casual skill that's why you can't take 10 or 20 on a Use Magic Device check.Seems to me like you are making up risks where none are mentioned (in other words, you are simply over-thinking things).Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10.
I think threats would include possible failure, and if you fail a check the material is wasted. I would thing bad things happening would prevent taking a 10.
Looks like the "such as" makes things a bit unclear. I would not even accept it on a climb check if the specific example was not there. They really need better examples.
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Looks like the "such as" makes things a bit unclear. I would not even accept it on a climb check if the specific example was not there. They really need better examples.
Except that when climbing a cliff you can take 10, based off the description of taking 10 in the rulebook. Tell me falling 200 ft to your doom in not a possible failure.
So you wouldn't let a mountain climber take his time while climbing (take 10) to avoid the chance of rolling a 1 and not having enough of a bonus to hold on, falling to his death?
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Taking 10 is 1 check over 20 rounds.
Taking 20 is 20 checks over 20 rounds.
I use that as well. You can take 10 on crafting magical items...it just takes 20 times as long. You are NEVER allowed to have that much downtime in your backstory. I also rule that ANY failure loses the component so it becomes a gamble. Many players do it anyways and it keeps some from not so I figure that is a balancing point. Without that rule,everyone would just keep rolling till they succeeded.
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Somehow having the rest of the party age to death while you're crafting your Rod of Nifty Wonders doesn't strike to me as a popular option.What if you're an elf? :)I use that as well. You can take 10 on crafting magical items...it just takes 20 times as long. You are NEVER allowed to have that much downtime in your backstory.Taking 10 is 1 check over 20 rounds.
Taking 20 is 20 checks over 20 rounds.
What was I doing for the fifty years before the party was born?
Eating leaves and taking aloofness classes.
What was I doing for the fifty years before the party was born?
I was going to say "sowing your wild oats", myself.
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What was I doing for the fifty years before the party was born?Somehow having the rest of the party age to death while you're crafting your Rod of Nifty Wonders doesn't strike to me as a popular option.What if you're an elf? :)I use that as well. You can take 10 on crafting magical items...it just takes 20 times as long. You are NEVER allowed to have that much downtime in your backstory.Taking 10 is 1 check over 20 rounds.
Taking 20 is 20 checks over 20 rounds.
Nope, your too busy contemplating your navel lint :P . Do elves have navel lint?
So you wouldn't let a mountain climber take his time while climbing (take 10) to avoid the chance of rolling a 1 and not having enough of a bonus to hold on, falling to his death?Looks like the "such as" makes things a bit unclear. I would not even accept it on a climb check if the specific example was not there. They really need better examples.
Except that when climbing a cliff you can take 10, based off the description of taking 10 in the rulebook. Tell me falling 200 ft to your doom in not a possible failure.
I guess if he had time to make sure his hold was good I would and that is maybe what the rule represents, but with the craft check you are crafting everyday, and if the DC is really only a +5 then it is pretty much automatic, and there is really no reason to have the check, and pretty impossible to have a cursed item take place except on purpose.
Taking 10 is 1 check over 20 rounds.
Taking 20 is 20 checks over 20 rounds.
I just caught that. If that is the case, sure you can take 10.
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I just caught that. If that is the case, sure you can take 10.Taking 10 is 1 check over 20 rounds.
Taking 20 is 20 checks over 20 rounds.
It's not official, just how I interpret the rules. Taking 10 to be you taking the time not to screw up horribly, taking 20 to be you trying different ways over and over. The difference between a mountain climber on a challenging rock wall on a calm clear day, and a fat kid trying to get over a high fence. One could fail if he weren't taking his time to avoid it and so never tries for that 20, one fails multiple times before he manages to get that 20 and succeed. If the rock climber were to do it on a stormy day with high winds, he wouldn't have the time to take 10 because of the wind buffeting him off the cliff.
Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10.
I think threats would include possible failure, and if you fail a check the material is wasted. I would think bad things happening would prevent
taking a 10.edit:changed thing to think
Don't you think that is stretching it a bit? Risk of failure does not equal a threat.
If it's a balance concern for you, why not tell your players that rather than stretching some contrived explanation over it like a badly wrapped bandaid?
You don't need the Use Magic Device skill to activate devices that contain magic you already know.Well, I think his argument doesn't rest on the "being attacked at the time" point, but rather on the "magic is unpredictable" point. Looking at Use Magic Device as an inspiration does not seem so far-fetched to me.But the Use Magic Device rules are based on "unfamiliar magic is unpredictable."Uh, that is not exactly reflected in the skill description. As in "not at all".
OTOH, neither is that you can't take 10 because magic itself is "unpredictable". So take that for what's it's worth.
That's actually a good point and one I hadn't thought of.
Man, I think we need an official ruling on this. Maybe starting a separate thread would be the thing to do?
This is copy and pasted from the PFSRD entry on Use Magic Device
Special
You cannot take 10 with this skill. You can't aid another on Use Magic Device checks.
Yeah, the official wording doesn't say anything about unpredictability of magic.
Oh, well, I'll let it rest, unless someone still has something to add of interest. I hope nobody in my campaign takes up item crafting. :p
Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10.
I think threats would include possible failure, and if you fail a check the material is wasted. I would think bad things happening would prevent
taking a 10.edit:changed thing to think
Don't you think that is stretching it a bit? Risk of failure does not equal a threat.
If it's a balance concern for you, why not tell your players that rather than stretching some contrived explanation over it like a badly wrapped bandaid?
Risk of failure with bad consequences equals a threat. I did not say that, but my view of losing the gold from trying to make the item should have gotten that point across. My view of a possible cursed item also supports that. I guess it's my fault for not repeating it. <--Not being snarky.
Risk of failure with bad consequences equals a threat. I did not say that, but my view of losing the gold from trying to make the item should have gotten that point across. My view of a possible cursed item also supports that. I guess it's my fault for not repeating it. <--Not being snarky.
When you screw up and create a cursed item, it is of no threat to you until you try to use the item though. Seeing that, I don't see how the creation process ITSELF can be constituted as a threat.
When you screw up and create a cursed item, it is of no threat to you until you try to use the item though. Seeing that, I don't see how the creation process ITSELF can be constituted as a threat.
Risk of failure with bad consequences equals a threat. I did not say that, but my view of losing the gold from trying to make the item should have gotten that point across. My view of a possible cursed item also supports that. I guess it's my fault for not repeating it. <--Not being snarky.
Who makes items and does not use them? I know there is always the option to sell the item but that is not normal. You might give the item to another party member, but that is still a very bad thing to happen. Even if you sell the item the person you sold it to may come looking for you. The process ITSELF is never a threat. Failing UMD is not a threat. The result of possibly failing is always a threat.
Who makes items and does not use them? I know there is always the option to sell the item but that is not normal. You might give the item to another party member, but that is still a very bad thing to happen. Even if you sell the item the person you sold it to may come looking for you. The process ITSELF is never a threat. Failing UMD is not a threat. The result of possibly failing is always a threat.
It's not an immediate threat though, which is what the rules are referring to when they talk about taking 10 on skill checks.
Sure the item can be a threat LATER, but by then all the checks have been made and arguing against taking 10 has become moot.
I'd say the take 10 would apply on the skill check to confirm the creation of a magic item.
1 - Because the relevant skill for item creations is either Spellcraft or Craft(Stuff), not the previously said Use Magic Device. Creating magic items is a long process, and the person attempting the craft prepares for a long time until he makes the decisive check. Working on the magic of the item becomes, as I think it, a routine task most fitted for a "take 10" rule.
1.1 - Use Magic Device is the ability to use wands and other powerful magic items that your class doesn't normally allow. It is a fit balance to add risks to such attempts, for it allows classes to pick on the abilities of spellcasters.
2 - The downtime it takes to create these items is already a long story. If the character has sufficient investments in skills to take 10 and still succeed, fine, so be it, it will only make the campaign more enjoyable. There are much more exciting things to see than a fumbled 120 days craft and a lost treasure hoard.
2.1 - It might seem that in a campaign using many, many, many stats points to begin with, crafting seems easy to come by with take 10... but when a group of player such as one I am DM in, wants to play rather ordinary characters out of a "Low Fantasy" character generation, and work them towards Epic, they can certainly come by niceties such as a take 10 rule.
3 - I wouldn't disagree with a DM talking about magic instability and complexity. But in game terms, I tend towards my previous statements.
Yeah, that seems pretty comprehensive. Having a craft check go awry and months of work go to waste doesn't sound like much fun for the players, so I think allowing taking 10 is in the interest of keeping a fun game flowing.
OTOH, though, how do cursed items then ever get into existance? Spellcasters who like to gamble, perhaps? :p
Risk of failure with bad consequences equals a threat. I did not say that, but my view of losing the gold from trying to make the item should have gotten that point across. My view of a possible cursed item also supports that. I guess it's my fault for not repeating it. <--Not being snarky.
Is someone allowed to take 10 on a climb check? The threat of falling to one's death is certainly a threat.
Is anyone allowed to take 10 on survival checks? The chance of becoming lost is a threat to low level characters.
How about profession: sailor checks? That also sounds like there is a threat if done poorly.
I can easily justify cursed items even if a caster is allowed to take 10 on creation checks. Some might have been created on purpose. Others would be the result of someone trying to do more than he is ready for. Such things often happen in stories, and at the game table as well.
You can recover/reverse the bad survival check, and possibly the sailor check, and while I see how the craft check could not be seen as a threat its not something you can just undo. They should either remove the words "such as" or be more specific.
This is an absurd rule debate. The act of taking 10 itself is the product of being afraid of failure. Or so say the rules. Therefore, you can't say you can't take 10 in cases where you are afraid of failure.
This is an absurd rule debate. The act of taking 10 itself is the product of being afraid of failure. Or so say the rules. Therefore, you can't say you can't take 10 in cases where you are afraid of failure.
Bingo!
And just because you can't take 10 on UMD doesn't mean you can't take 10 on crafting.
Completely different skills.
Although to put where the discussion has ended up in perspective with the original question, I can only say this.
In my own experience as a player and from behind the screen, nothing within the rules can break a game faster than allowing players to pick their own magic items.
I disagree. The only thing players get to control are their characters they should at least get to do that. Magic items are a part of the building process. That does not mean give them everything they want, but if they have the gold to acquire it they should be able to have it. The only time I have seen loot break the game is when you give players ridiculous amounts of money.
This is an absurd rule debate. The act of taking 10 itself is the product of being afraid of failure. Or so say the rules. Therefore, you can't say you can't take 10 in cases where you are afraid of failure.
All skills can produce a fear of failure. That is a terrible argument.
If we can only not take 10 when it is specifically stated then the take 10 rule should be done away with, and a rule that states "you can can take 10 except when the skill in question says you can't. Other than that it is too ambiguous. UMD does not even produce a threat to the players, but they can't take 10 on that. A 1 just causes the item to not be activated, and does not allow anymore retries for the rest of the day.The way I currently see it by RAW, you can take 10 unless the skill says you can't.
The crafting thing was more RAI, but I can see how you can just take time to make sure you do it correctly.
This is an absurd rule debate. The act of taking 10 itself is the product of being afraid of failure. Or so say the rules. Therefore, you can't say you can't take 10 in cases where you are afraid of failure.All skills can produce a fear of failure. That is a terrible argument.
If we can only not take 10 when it is specifically stated then the take 10 rule should be done away with, and a rule that states "you can can take 10 except when the skill in question says you can't. Other than that it is too ambiguous. UMD does not even produce a threat to the players, but they can't take 10 on that. A 1 just causes the item to not be activated, and does not allow anymore retries for the rest of the day.The way I currently see it by RAW, you can take 10 unless the skill says you can't.
The crafting thing was more RAI, but I can see how you can just take time to make sure you do it correctly.
The entire point of UMD is the user either isn't magically inclined, isn't able to use the magic in the item as part of their magical class, or have no idea what the item does. It's more like Knowledge than any other skill, even crafting magic items. For crafting magic items, you are using familiar magic and I don't see why that would produce a similar problem to UMD which is intrinsically tied to unfamiliar magic.
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I disagree. The only thing players get to control are their characters they should at least get to do that. Magic items are a part of the building process. That does not mean give them everything they want, but if they have the gold to acquire it they should be able to have it. The only time I have seen loot break the game is when you give players ridiculous amounts of money.Although to put where the discussion has ended up in perspective with the original question, I can only say this.
In my own experience as a player and from behind the screen, nothing within the rules can break a game faster than allowing players to pick their own magic items.
And I disagree with this. When I allowed taking 10, EVERYONE was doing it so they can get gear that they would not have access to due to money and/or the normal crafting rules requirements. This does break the game rather quickly and rather efficiently. You make them gamble...well it curves a lot of the powergaming crafting, and by the time they can reliably do it, they are within 2 levels of when they could normally get the item...not 5 or more...and if you roll and get lucky anyways, I have less issue with that.
And I disagree with this. When I allowed taking 10, EVERYONE was doing it so they can get gear that they would not have access to due to money and/or the normal crafting rules requirements.
You are going to have to explain how taking the average result on a d20 result gave them the ability to get items they couldn't get through normal crafting rules. And how taking 10 somehow gave them more money.
The entire point of UMD is the user either isn't magically inclined, isn't able to use the magic in the item as part of their magical class, or have no idea what the item does. It's more like Knowledge than any other skill, even crafting magic items. For crafting magic items, you are using familiar magic and I don't see why that would produce a similar problem to UMD which is intrinsically tied to unfamiliar magic.This is an absurd rule debate. The act of taking 10 itself is the product of being afraid of failure. Or so say the rules. Therefore, you can't say you can't take 10 in cases where you are afraid of failure.All skills can produce a fear of failure. That is a terrible argument.
If we can only not take 10 when it is specifically stated then the take 10 rule should be done away with, and a rule that states "you can can take 10 except when the skill in question says you can't. Other than that it is too ambiguous. UMD does not even produce a threat to the players, but they can't take 10 on that. A 1 just causes the item to not be activated, and does not allow anymore retries for the rest of the day.The way I currently see it by RAW, you can take 10 unless the skill says you can't.
The crafting thing was more RAI, but I can see how you can just take time to make sure you do it correctly.
When did I say anything about UMD and crafting producing similar affects? I specifically stated UMD did not cause any bad affects.I am failing to see your point here.