Hi All,
I'll try to answer all the things that came up.
1. It's not a self designed campaign. It's the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. So I have a fix series of Monsters, 90% Evil. So smite evil work most of the time. Also because of the other party members they rarely do more then 3 encounters in a day. So the Paladin can use smite evil in all of them. Usually it's pretty obvious who is the toughest.
2. My mistake: It was a Juvenile dragon not a Young. But the CR9 was accurate.
3. It was underground. And they locked themselves in a small room. Before that they managed to take part of the dragon's treasure because they used a Bead of Force to hold the dragon in place (SR passed, save failed). They got lucky. So they had 10 minutes. But also the dragon had 10 minutes, and used a Mage Armor spell on himself. After the Beads effect was over, the dragon was furious and went after them. Broke down the door, and used the breath weapon (26 damage for 2 player). In the same round it lost 70% of it's hitpoints. The next round he tried to kill the paladin (did 25 points of damage), and failed, then he was dead. The paladin also healed himself in the first round using a lay on hands (+3d6 HP).
4. CR7 by definition should mean challenge for 4 7th level characters. So putting a bigger dragon is not a solution.
5. He has strong abilities. Yes. We used the DnD 3.0 point by method (it's an old campaign) with 30 points (25 is standard). But not that powerful:
Str 16 + 2 racial
Chr 15 + 1 at level 4
Even if I had raised the dragons abilities it wouldn't have mattered.
6. I don't expect the paladin to do as much damage as a fighter or barbarian. They have tons of other abilities that a fighter doesn't have. Fighter should be the best fighter in the game. Hence the name. Against an evil foe paladin can outperform the fighter if he uses the smite ability. But we are talking about dealing more than twice the damage then a fighter of the same level. (having the same abilities, and equipment). Together with the lay hands ability as a swift action, he is practically two fighters in one. This is what I think is too much.
Of course, you don't have to agree with me.
Brain
4. CR7 by definition should mean challenge for 4 7th level characters. So putting a bigger dragon is not a solution.
Not really, no. A CR 7 should use up about 25% of the resources of a party of 4 7th level characters. That's really not much of a challenge, and it's not supposed to be.
Yeah I was really excited when I read the Black Dragons Acid on his bite, I was hoping all Dragons got and energy damage bite but they didn't which kinda sucked
I like the difference in overall abilities the dragons got. Giving every dragon energy damage on their bites would be too predictable.
5. He has strong abilities. Yes. We used the DnD 3.0 point by method (it's an old campaign) with 30 points (25 is standard). But not that powerful:
Str 16 + 2 racial
Chr 15 + 1 at level 4
Also, 30 point buy skews the challenge of a given encounter in favor of the PCs. With the bestiary balanced with the standard point buy (25 in your case), I can see many encounters that equal the PCs' APL being routinely easier than normal and encounters 1 CR above being on par.
Yeah I was really excited when I read the Black Dragons Acid on his bite, I was hoping all Dragons got and energy damage bite but they didn't which kinda suckedI like the difference in overall abilities the dragons got. Giving every dragon energy damage on their bites would be too predictable.
I understand what you are saying making them all differnt is cool i just liked that to make the dragons tougher
6. I don't expect the paladin to do as much damage as a fighter or barbarian. They have tons of other abilities that a fighter doesn't have. Fighter should be the best fighter in the game. Hence the name. Against an evil foe paladin can outperform the fighter if he uses the smite ability. But we are talking about dealing more than twice the damage then a fighter of the same level. (having the same abilities, and equipment)....
Even one fighter can tremendously outdamage another depending on build. Saying a fighter got outdamaged is not saying much. What were the feats involved with the fighter.
1. It's not a self designed campaign. It's the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. So I have a fix series of Monsters, 90% Evil. So smite evil work most of the time. Also because of the other party members they rarely do more then 3 encounters in a day. So the Paladin can use smite evil in all of them. Usually it's pretty obvious who is the toughest.
Aka, there is actually a very good chance that he could easily run out of Smite Evil if not judicious in its use.
6. I don't expect the paladin to do as much damage as a fighter or barbarian. They have tons of other abilities that a fighter doesn't have. Fighter should be the best fighter in the game. Hence the name. Against an evil foe paladin can outperform the fighter if he uses the smite ability. But we are talking about dealing more than twice the damage then a fighter of the same level. (having the same abilities, and equipment)....
The Paladin does exactly one thing. You are complaining it does it well. I suppose next we will go after Evokers for making things explode or Rogues for opening doors and disabling traps.
1) If you think Paladin's Smite Evil is overpowered, the first thing you should try is removing the "Double Smite Damage" against Dragons, Undead, and Demons/Devils.
2) For Capital-E Evil creatures (like the ones that are 'double smited' per RAW), I would consider letting them have Detect Good as an at-will if they don't already have it, and actually having them make good use of it. The Paladin's Aura of Good is going to pop like neon, so they will be more than alerted that it is a possible Paladin, and can take this into account - denying full attacks, for one. In any case, once they have been hit by a Smite, they should know it, and avoid being further hit by the Paladin if possible.
3) Are you using 3.5 stats? Or PRPG Bestiary stats? If the former, the monsters are probably going to look weak against ANY PRPG party. In any case, if your players are playing with high point buy, you need to adjust the opposition to match: +4 to CON and +2 WIS are an obvious start, and why not throw in Toughness while you're at it?
4) You say "because of the other party members they rarely do more then 3 encounters in a day". I call bull. You're saying the other party members are casters, and WANT to rest up after blowing their spells like there's no tomorrow? Guess what, it's up to YOU, the DM, whether or not they get a nice 8 hr rest or not. The game is balanced around 4-5 encounters per day, so if you are letting your players get away with less ON TOP of their cheese-tastic point buy, you can't complain when they cruise thru encounters.
5) The Paladin's Smite is single target. I know you said you're using published material, but if it's so easy as you say, you should be able to "pull" some re-enforcements from another room to mix up the encounters, and not make it a gang-up on 1 smited target.
6) Last, use better tactics. Obviously, the dragon KNEW the party was ready for it to bust in. Why not wait out their buffs? Why not bust in and GRAB somebody squishy and WITHDRAW to enjoy their snack? Sure, the party will follow, but that bypasses the beat-down circle they had set-up in the room, and with terrain and blocking from their own party members, should seriously hamper efficient retribution. That's just one example.
3) Are you using 3.5 stats? Or PRPG Bestiary stats? If the former, the monsters are probably going to look weak against ANY PRPG party. In any case, if your players are playing with high point buy, you need to adjust the opposition to match: +4 to CON and +2 WIS are an obvious start, and why not throw in Toughness while you're at it?
Or just use the already built-in variable: HPs. I found that when PCs wizzed through enemies, giving future monsters more than average HP (often max HP for significant monsters such as dragons) let them eke out a round or two before they were finished off.
And switching out a feat for Iron Will is an easy solution too. Usually a monster with CR 7 or above will have a feat that probably won't get used in a given encounter.
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Or just use the already built-in variable: HPs. I found that when PCs wizzed through enemies, giving future monsters more than average HP (often max HP for significant monsters such as dragons) let them eke out a round or two before they were finished off.
A good idea would be to calculate the average HPs as usual as well as the max HP for the HD. Then you have a threshold that lets you decide when the monster goes down. If they have trouble and the fight is going badly, the monster goes down at the average total. If they're breezing through the fight and mulching its HP, wait until they deal more than the max. It gives you a gauge of when the monster should die without being arbitrary.
6) Last, use better tactics. Obviously, the dragon KNEW the party was ready for it to bust in. Why not wait out their buffs? Why not bust in and GRAB somebody squishy and WITHDRAW to enjoy their snack? Sure, the party will follow, but that bypasses the beat-down circle they had set-up in the room, and with terrain and blocking from their own party members, should seriously hamper efficient retribution. That's just one example.
Also, why not immediately go get reinforcements if the party just locked themselves in a room? Perhaps that's not very dragon-like, but in almost any other encounter it would be VERY realistic. The enemy is not just going to roll over and play on the terms the PCs choose. Any situation where an enemy sees they are out-gunned by the PCs, if they have an escape, they would probably take it, and call for aid while barring the door to the PCs (etc).
6) Last, use better tactics. Obviously, the dragon KNEW the party was ready for it to bust in. Why not wait out their buffs? Why not bust in and GRAB somebody squishy and WITHDRAW to enjoy their snack? Sure, the party will follow, but that bypasses the beat-down circle they had set-up in the room, and with terrain and blocking from their own party members, should seriously hamper efficient retribution. That's just one example.Also, why not immediately go get reinforcements if the party just locked themselves in a room? Perhaps that's not very dragon-like, but in almost any other encounter it would be VERY realistic. The enemy is not just going to roll over and play on the terms the PCs choose. Any situation where an enemy sees they are out-gunned by the PCs, if they have an escape, they would probably take it, and call for aid while barring the door to the PCs (etc).
To defend the poster, if it's the encounter I remember from that module, the dragon was in a pretty remote section of the dungeon and aid wouldn't be forthcoming.
To defend the poster, if it's the encounter I remember from that module, the dragon was in a pretty remote section of the dungeon and aid wouldn't be forthcoming.
Yeah, I was suggesting it more as something to think about in general, not just for dragons.
Like I said, for top-dog dragons, running for help just doesn't seem their style no matter what.Anyhow, I didn't want to come off judgemental or anything,
hopefully this and other feedback is helpful to deal with this issue.
I most definitely wouldn't spring it (my proposed smite evil houserule) on someone who was playing in an existing campaign. This would be explained at the start of a new campaign.
I just don't feel that the double damage is needed, and that the bypassing of all damage reduction is a bit much. This is based on playing in a homebrew game where one of the players is a level 12 paladin. Granted, we don't run 4 to 5 encounters a day (typically 1 or 2), and most of our enemies are evil (most recently against an undead bbeg), but I've seen how effective the pally can be in combat. He shines just fine without getting double damage against the big 3.
On another note, I've often wondered what a party of paladins who all had leadership would play like. /ponder
So the paladin with higher stats then normal fought against a weak enemy he's specifically made to kill, and he did really good.
And you're mad about it.
And you want to completely cripple him because of it.
Why not just whip it out and slap him in the face with it?
Just my opinion, but I think the paladin shines too brightly against the three types of opponents where they get double damage. My solution is to not give them double level damage against these types. They keep their regular level damage. I'm also altering the ability to bypass all damage reduction. Rather, all attacks made when smiting evil are considered holy, lawful, and good.Wow! If you do that, may I suggest that you change the ability from "Smite Evil", to "Tickle Evil"? I would be upset if I had already started playing a core class and the DM took away a cool ability, replacing it with something that was rarely usable, and only moderately beneficial.
Thinking about the published adventure path I'm running for my players, I can't think of a single creature in the first 4 books that your proposed change would actually be useful against.
I may be missing something, but I think you're misunderstanding how Dosgamer's house-rule works.
He's not taking away a cool ability and replacing it with something "rarely usable". His Smite is usable just as often as the standard PRPG Smite. The only difference is that it's effect is the same when Smiting Evil Aberrations, Elementals, and Humanoids as when Smiting Dragons, Undead and Extra-Planar Evil types. Both +CHA to hit, +Level to damage, and all the other benefits.
His change to DR overcoming seems pretty reasonable and flavor-consistent to me. How does holy Smiting EEVIL allow your scimitar to overcome the DR of a Skeleton with DR/Bludgeoning? It's a physical property. Likewise, if Mr. Evil Knight is wearing Adamantine Armor, should Smite really make your bone spearhead ignore that DR? (The Armor itself isn't Evil) What he's proposed is ignoring DR/Holy Lawful Good which seem like the appropriate ones for a Paladin to overcome. Automatically overcoming DR/Chaotic? DR/Evil? I can't see it. Further, you have to remember the Paladin's Weapon Bond option which allows them to boost their weapon's enhancement arbitrarily - adding +1's or Holy or Axiomatic or Bane.
So I don't understand your comment about the un-named adventure with un-named creatures you don't think his Smite would be useful against. Does your adventure not have Undead/Dragon/Planar foes? Then no change from the RAW besides DR. Does your adventure have lots of Udnead/Dragon/Planar foes? Well, the Paladin can continue Smiting them, only with the same effect as Smiting non-'Big Evil' foes. Which is still a great deal.
His change to DR overcoming seems pretty reasonable and flavor-consistent to me. How does holy Smiting EEVIL allow your scimitar to overcome the DR of a Skeleton with DR/Bludgeoning? It's a physical property. Likewise, if Mr. Evil Knight is wearing Adamantine Armor, should Smite really make your bone spearhead ignore that DR?
Because it's Smite Evil, that's why.
Are you really going to examine the realism behind [/i]a divine warrior smiting evil?[/i] Really? That's the battle you're going to choose? It's not realistic for a paladin, imbued with the power of the gods, a champion of good, smiting a walking, undead skeleton, and bypassing it's DR? That's your fight?
So the paladin with higher stats then normal fought against a weak enemy he's specifically made to kill, and he did really good.
And you're mad about it.
And you want to completely cripple him because of it.
Why not just whip it out and slap him in the face with it?
Hi,
I'm DMing for 17 years now. I'm way past that stage, when I'm mad about the PCs beating a monster.
The reason I brought up this, because the paladin made the other PCs practically useless, even the paladin's player agreed that. And with so many evil foes in the dungeon this will be the case in most fights.
Yesterday we played with our proposed modification and it worked quite well.
For the others: Thanks for the idea of simply increasing the HP of monsters. I think it will make a difference, how I didn't think of that earlier?
Brain
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On another note, I've often wondered what a party of paladins who all had leadership would play like. /ponder
Sir Georik, Servant of the Inheritor : Iomedae's Grace! We will not let this village fall to this undead horde! Silver Knight Brigade! Secure entryways for the refugees! Ensure no one is left behind!
Yaisha, Hand of the Dawnflower : Healinghands! Set up a triage for the wounded, now! Purifiers, bolster the Silver Knights! Allow no ghoul to pass through!
Jebediah Grahm, Deadeye's Favored Shot : Farseers've spotted some flyers on the horizon! Damn pannangallans done been imported! Longshots, ready a volley and knock 'em down 'fore they get overhead.
Nailana Feinn, Shelyn's Beloved : Hotbloods, ready your spells to aid the Longshots should those things draw too close to the village! Consoliade, see to the townsfolk. We do not need them panicking in the streets!
Irya Pranjat, The Thousand Righteous Fists of Irori : I see the necromancers amidst the rabble out there. Silentstriders, come with me. We have to lock them down when the others strike their forces. I want no less than eight monks on each of those lunatics. Do not allow any of them to cast even one spell.
Sir Georik : Heaven's Legion! ENGAGE!
The dragon in question, Vranthis, is a juvenile dragon. In 3.0 he was CR 7 and in 3.5 he would be CR 8. A single monster even 2 CR levels above the party average is still only going to require the party to expend about a third of its resources (maximum and assuming some bad luck). Which is about right for your paladin's single use of Smite Evil.
Beware however that as things progress in the adventure you are going to see a swing in the other direction. Evil clerics abound in this thing - it's a magnum opus on using evil clerics. The way negative channeling works in Pathfinder your party is going to get roughed up.
Pathfinder has yet to give us a blackguard so you're going to have to modify the 3.5 version. Assuming smite evil works like smite good you are going to have to be very, very careful when your group runs into a certain prince.....
One small tweak my group is using in my 3.5 game is to make smite evil work more or less like the 3.5 version except that it lasts for 3+Cha modifier rounds and works against all evil creatures during that duration.
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Well just about rounding up a campaign (council of thieves) Using the new pathfinder rules and I have to say the Paldadin is in no way what I would call overpowerd. yes smite is pretty powerfull when used against certain enemy types but even then it only really brings it in line with the amount of damage the party fighter can put out every round.
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Are you really going to examine the realism behind [/i]a divine warrior smiting evil?[/i] Really? That's the battle you're going to choose? It's not realistic for a paladin, imbued with the power of the gods, a champion of good, smiting a walking, undead skeleton, and bypassing it's DR? That's your fight?
I think it's more that some people believe certain DR is granted for different reasons, and work in different ways. The DR of a skeleton is a physical property of it's shape, sending slashing and piercing weapons ricocheting off its hard, curved surfaces.
I never had a problem with the much-vilified 'golf-bag syndrome'; I see it as part of the tactics of playing a competent warrior. Why shouldn't the paladin, faced with a skeleton, whip out a back-up hammer?
i personally dont see a problem with the paladins smite ability, since generally speaking they do less damage than a Fighter at the same level, even when smiting. (look at the DPR olympics thread).
But if the PCs do manage to take the flight away from the dragon, wich makes the encounter way easyer, then a CR 9 shouldnt really be that hard. Remember it is designed to be able to fly.
I actually dont understand why people think paladin archers are that good, especially if its a melee paladin pulling one out. The paladin in this thread would have gone from
So at level 7 he attacked the dragon:
+17/+12
He dealt
d12+24 damage
With each hit. No damage reduction.
to something like this (with +4 dex buff and 12 base dex):
+14/+9 (+7 BAB, +3 dex, +1 magic, +3 cha)
He would deal
d8+15 (+14 smite +1 magic) damage
With each hit. No damage reduction
wich is really not that good, and would definately not be enough to blast through 140 hp in 2 rounds. Its only a measly 25 or so DPR.
Are you really going to examine the realism behind [/i]a divine warrior smiting evil?[/i] Really? That's the battle you're going to choose? It's not realistic for a paladin, imbued with the power of the gods, a champion of good, smiting a walking, undead skeleton, and bypassing it's DR? That's your fight?I think it's more that some people believe certain DR is granted for different reasons, and work in different ways. The DR of a skeleton is a physical property of it's shape, sending slashing and piercing weapons ricocheting off its hard, curved surfaces.
I never had a problem with the much-vilified 'golf-bag syndrome'; I see it as part of the tactics of playing a competent warrior. Why shouldn't the paladin, faced with a skeleton, whip out a back-up hammer?
"The weapon is imbued with holy energy because the paladin is smiting evil"
DR doesn't matter due to smite evil. The sword bypasses the - you see where I'm going.
I most definitely wouldn't spring it (my proposed smite evil houserule) on someone who was playing in an existing campaign. This would be explained at the start of a new campaign.
I just don't feel that the double damage is needed, and that the bypassing of all damage reduction is a bit much. This is based on playing in a homebrew game where one of the players is a level 12 paladin. Granted, we don't run 4 to 5 encounters a day (typically 1 or 2), and most of our enemies are evil (most recently against an undead bbeg), but I've seen how effective the pally can be in combat. He shines just fine without getting double damage against the big 3.
On another note, I've often wondered what a party of paladins who all had leadership would play like. /ponder
So a Paladin of 12th level is going to be doing [W] + Str + 24 damage against a dragon. Assuming he started out with 18 Str, increased it every time, and has a +2 item for Str, that's +6 damage. And let's assume he has a +2 Greatsword. So he does 2d6 + 32 damage. An average of 39 damage against one enemy. OK, well that's nice. Then the Wizard casts a Maximized Fireball and does 60 damage. Or the Cleric channels energy and does avg 21 damage to undead. Or the Wizard uses Chain Lightning, Freezing Sphere, etc.
Now let's stop nerfing the blasted Paladin.
The reason I brought up this, because the paladin made the other PCs practically useless, even the paladin's player agreed that. And with so many evil foes in the dungeon this will be the case in most fights.
There are less than 6 monsters in the entire dungeon? Smite Evil works three times a day against a single target. Give me a break people.
I think Paladins are the toughest martial class in Pathfinder, which they probably shouldn't be because they have some pretty cool secondary abilities which the fighter doesn't get.
However, they are also largely dependent on fighting evil creatures. A Paladin vs. a Golem or an Elemental is going to be below par as far as martial classes are concerned.
If you are planning on a big-climactic encounter, then you need to consider the abilities of the party. A dragon played with tactical cunning will still give a Paladin a tough time, but be aware that Paladins are very good against evil dragons.
I do think the Paladin is a bit tougher than it should be, but not so much it should wreck a campaign.
One small issue I have with Pathfinder is they took abilities that were pretty lousy but condition-dependent in 3.5 and made them tough, but still condition-dependent (Smite evil, Favored Enemy) so they become either super-tough or useless.
I much prefer the route they took with sneak attack - leaving the relative power of the ability unchanged, but increased the frequency that it could be used.
Sneak Attack was already crazy powerful in the situations in worked in.
God forbid the Rogue was in a flanking position on that dragon and was focusing on TWF. If every attack hits, that is +24d6
EDIT: I notice my previous avg Paladin damage is off. It is in fact 42 dmg instead. WoOoOo.
Are you really going to examine the realism behind [/i]a divine warrior smiting evil?[/i] Really? That's the battle you're going to choose? It's not realistic for a paladin, imbued with the power of the gods, a champion of good, smiting a walking, undead skeleton, and bypassing it's DR? That's your fight?I think it's more that some people believe certain DR is granted for different reasons, and work in different ways. The DR of a skeleton is a physical property of it's shape, sending slashing and piercing weapons ricocheting off its hard, curved surfaces.
I never had a problem with the much-vilified 'golf-bag syndrome'; I see it as part of the tactics of playing a competent warrior. Why shouldn't the paladin, faced with a skeleton, whip out a back-up hammer?
"The weapon is imbued with holy energy because the paladin is smiting evil"
DR doesn't matter due to smite evil. The sword bypasses the - you see where I'm going.
I've always flavored it as the paladin striking the enemy with a rarely strong yet graceful or meaningful blow, the enemy chuckling amusedly at the pathetic mortal's attempt to harm him, and then the holy symbol of the paladin burning itself into the monster's forehead.
So the paladin of Cayden Cailean in my campaign is running around searing the image of a mug into demon's foreheads....
Speaking of Cayden Cailean, you guys aren't even taking into account bless weapon. My party's paladin has bless weapon, a rapier, Improved Critical (rapier) and has a transmutation wizard cohort. He casts and runs up, she hastes him, he five foots, declares smite and full attacks. All crits automatically confirm, so every roll above 15-- if it hits, it crits.
It gets real.
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<sarcasm>Hey, thanks for the strawman, I've been collecting those.</sarcasm>Except you know when it's not about damage, paladins have lots of opportunities to shine outside of damage, and they are still plenty capable warriors. If your game is about nothing but who deals the most damage, then yeah, this is probably not a good fix.Or just do what I did and houserule that paladins don't do double damage against certain types. That'll fix the OPs problem while still letting the Pally do kickass damage.Except not really, Paladins don't do much better than straight fighters in damage, even against evil targets; they only really shine when they're dealing with evil outsiders and dragons.
<sarcasm>So this is what we've devolved to, needing to bracket our sarcasm so that people can recognize it</Sarcasm>
You do realize that that comment was f+$*ing with you right? I thought you and I had spoken enough that you'd know I was f!&%ing with you. Oh well, In case people don't know, I've had an issue with paladins dealing double damage since the begining in the beta and it has almost nothing to do with damage, or being overpowered, and everything to do with the fact that I personally think it's the wrong direction to take paladins. Anywho, I do feel that the abilities of the Paladin more than make up for the lack of double damage vs. type. And to answer the question when does a paladin have a chance to shine. That's an in game issue, in game between his beatstick goodness and his ability to heal and remove conditions at the same time, and his ability to either use a mount, or add magic powers to his sword, the paladin will be in situations where he shines all the time. but that's in game, on paper he will look weaker than either the fighter or the cleric. But in game will be different, and yes I have played a paladin, and yes I never had a chance to fight my double damage monster types and yet several times in that game, I had the spotlight and had opportunity to shine. And I played with a cleric and a fighter.
I DM Second darkness and we have a halfling paladin in the party.
Smite evil, while very effective, doesn't bother me all that much.
On the other hand, the Aura of Justice ability they get at 11th level was absolutely devastating.
I jumped the party (they were 11th level) with two Bebeliths. It was a massacre, and the demons were dead in 2 rounds. After the smoke had cleared even the PC's agreed that the ability was overpowered.
My complaints was that Aura of Justice gives any non-evil ally the smite evil ability, using the paladins bonuses. Don't forget that the paladin grants his allies this as a free action.
Suddenly the CN fighter just got a LOT more powerful.
I DM Second darkness and we have a halfling paladin in the party.
Smite evil, while very effective, doesn't bother me all that much.
On the other hand, the Aura of Justice ability they get at 11th level was absolutely devastating.
I jumped the party (they were 11th level) with two Bebeliths. It was a massacre, and the demons were dead in 2 rounds. After the smoke had cleared even the PC's agreed that the ability was overpowered.My complaints was that Aura of Justice gives any non-evil ally the smite evil ability, using the paladins bonuses. Don't forget that the paladin grants his allies this as a free action.
Suddenly the CN fighter just got a LOT more powerful.
For that one fight against one enemy anyway.
So the paladin with higher stats then normal fought against a weak enemy he's specifically made to kill, and he did really good.
And you're mad about it.
And you want to completely cripple him because of it.
Why not just whip it out and slap him in the face with it?
The reason I brought up this, because the paladin made the other PCs practically useless, even the paladin's player agreed that. And with so many evil foes in the dungeon this will be the case in most fights.
Brain
How will it be the case in most fights when the paladin only gets bonuses when he smites? Don't forget smites are limited. Even if you have a lot of fights the paladin is still restricted in the number of enemies he can smite. Remember smite is not activated per encounter. It is activated per enemy. So if the group has 4 fights with a total of 10 enemies the paladin only gets to smite 4 of them assuming he has 4 smites per day. How is the rest of the party useless if they have other enemies to fight. It is your game so you can do what you want, but the problem is not the paladin. The problem seems to be your reluctance to adopt strategies to deal with him. The other issues have been dealt with by other posters.
Edit: corrected bad punctuation
There are less than 6 monsters in the entire dungeon? Smite Evil works three times a day against a single target. Give me a break people.
The reason I brought up this, because the paladin made the other PCs practically useless, even the paladin's player agreed that. And with so many evil foes in the dungeon this will be the case in most fights.
I was ninja'd by 4 hours. That has to be a record or something.
I DM Second darkness and we have a halfling paladin in the party.
Smite evil, while very effective, doesn't bother me all that much.
On the other hand, the Aura of Justice ability they get at 11th level was absolutely devastating.
I jumped the party (they were 11th level) with two Bebeliths. It was a massacre, and the demons were dead in 2 rounds. After the smoke had cleared even the PC's agreed that the ability was overpowered.My complaints was that Aura of Justice gives any non-evil ally the smite evil ability, using the paladins bonuses. Don't forget that the paladin grants his allies this as a free action.
Suddenly the CN fighter just got a LOT more powerful.
How many people in the party can actually make use of this ability? Do you have an all melee party or something?
That said, I think it is a good thing, because its around 11-13 that melee characters stop being relevant. This allows them to stave off that 'why dont we just have 2 clerics and 2 wizards) syndrome for at least a little longer.
How will it be the case in most fights when the paladin only gets bonuses when he smites. Don't forget smites are limited. Even if you have a lot of fights the paladin is still restricted in the number of enemies he can smite. Remember smite is not activated per encounter. It is activated per enemy. So if the group has 4 fights with a total of 10 enemies the paladin only gets to smite 4 of them assuming he has 4 smites per day. How is the rest of the party useless if they have other enemies to fight. It is your game so you can do what you want, but the problem is not the paladin. The problem seems to be your reluctance to adopt strategies to deal with him. The other issues have been dealt with by other posters.
I'm just glad some one else can read. Every other post is some one talking about how the Paladin is overpowered, especially in regard to evil dragon, evil outsiders, and undead, while completely ignoring how Smite Evil works and its limitations. The Paladin is overpowered x/day against a single enemy that can only be of three types. Wow, let's nerf it to hell. Then we can all roll up Rogues and flank an enemy and be as overpowered as the Paladin on every hit on every attack against a list of enemies that has an exclusion list the same length as the Paladin's inclusion list.
12th level Rogue 6d6 Sneak Attack = avg +21 damage
12th level Paladin smite against evil dragon, undead, evil outsider = +24 damage.
How will it be the case in most fights when the paladin only gets bonuses when he smites. Don't forget smites are limited. Even if you have a lot of fights the paladin is still restricted in the number of enemies he can smite. Remember smite is not activated per encounter. It is activated per enemy. So if the group has 4 fights with a total of 10 enemies the paladin only gets to smite 4 of them assuming he has 4 smites per day. How is the rest of the party useless if they have other enemies to fight. It is your game so you can do what you want, but the problem is not the paladin. The problem seems to be your reluctance to adopt strategies to deal with him. The other issues have been dealt with by other posters.I'm just glad some one else can read. Every other post is some one talking about how the Paladin is overpowered, especially in regard to evil dragon, evil outsiders, and undead, while completely ignoring how Smite Evil works and its limitations. The Paladin is overpowered x/day against a single enemy that can only be of three types. Wow, let's nerf it to hell. Then we can all roll up Rogues and flank an enemy and be as overpowered as the Paladin on every hit on every attack against a list of enemies that has an exclusion list the same length as the Paladin's inclusion list.
12th level Rogue 6d6 Sneak Attack = avg +21 damage
12th level Paladin smite against evil dragon, undead, evil outsider = +24 damage.
Yes, but the Rogue does not have full BAB and is 6 off + to hit in this case.
How will it be the case in most fights when the paladin only gets bonuses when he smites. Don't forget smites are limited. Even if you have a lot of fights the paladin is still restricted in the number of enemies he can smite. Remember smite is not activated per encounter. It is activated per enemy. So if the group has 4 fights with a total of 10 enemies the paladin only gets to smite 4 of them assuming he has 4 smites per day. How is the rest of the party useless if they have other enemies to fight. It is your game so you can do what you want, but the problem is not the paladin. The problem seems to be your reluctance to adopt strategies to deal with him. The other issues have been dealt with by other posters.I'm just glad some one else can read. Every other post is some one talking about how the Paladin is overpowered, especially in regard to evil dragon, evil outsiders, and undead, while completely ignoring how Smite Evil works and its limitations. The Paladin is overpowered x/day against a single enemy that can only be of three types. Wow, let's nerf it to hell. Then we can all roll up Rogues and flank an enemy and be as overpowered as the Paladin on every hit on every attack against a list of enemies that has an exclusion list the same length as the Paladin's inclusion list.
12th level Rogue 6d6 Sneak Attack = avg +21 damage
12th level Paladin smite against evil dragon, undead, evil outsider = +24 damage.
Cartigan don't you go downplaying the rogue. :)
You know that bastard will have TWF so that is 21x2 against everything except incorporeal monsters,elementals, and oozes mostlikely. Then again there is always ghost touch to get rid of those pesky incorporeal monsters, depending on how you read the ability.
Yes, but the Rogue does not have full BAB and is 6 off + to hit in this case.
I'm just glad some one else can read. Every other post is some one talking about how the Paladin is overpowered, especially in regard to evil dragon, evil outsiders, and undead, while completely ignoring how Smite Evil works and its limitations. The Paladin is overpowered x/day against a single enemy that can only be of three types. Wow, let's nerf it to hell. Then we can all roll up Rogues and flank an enemy and be as overpowered as the Paladin on every hit on every attack against a list of enemies that has an exclusion list the same length as the Paladin's inclusion list.12th level Rogue 6d6 Sneak Attack = avg +21 damage
12th level Paladin smite against evil dragon, undead, evil outsider = +24 damage.
*sigh*
Ok, let me see, would I rather have full BAB with an attack that does +21 against 6 enemies a day, or 3/4 BAB and +21 against 98% of the enemies I attack? I think if my only concern for the game is to deal massive damage I'd go with a fighter or barbarian 1st (as they can crank huge damage and don't care if the enemy is good, nuetral, evil, lawful, or chaotic, nor what race or species or size it is). My second choice would be a rogue, cleric or druid, as all three can crank massive damage against most anything I run across.
If my concept is I want to be a sucky fighter against anything that's not evil, and ungodly powerful against evil X times per day, then I'd pick a paladin.
Oh, and the Rogue would be 4 off + to hit in this case, as the flanking gives a +2 to his BAB. Or, if he bluffs, he flat-foots the enemy.
Yes, but the Rogue does not have full BAB and is 6 off + to hit in this case.
How will it be the case in most fights when the paladin only gets bonuses when he smites. Don't forget smites are limited. Even if you have a lot of fights the paladin is still restricted in the number of enemies he can smite. Remember smite is not activated per encounter. It is activated per enemy. So if the group has 4 fights with a total of 10 enemies the paladin only gets to smite 4 of them assuming he has 4 smites per day. How is the rest of the party useless if they have other enemies to fight. It is your game so you can do what you want, but the problem is not the paladin. The problem seems to be your reluctance to adopt strategies to deal with him. The other issues have been dealt with by other posters.I'm just glad some one else can read. Every other post is some one talking about how the Paladin is overpowered, especially in regard to evil dragon, evil outsiders, and undead, while completely ignoring how Smite Evil works and its limitations. The Paladin is overpowered x/day against a single enemy that can only be of three types. Wow, let's nerf it to hell. Then we can all roll up Rogues and flank an enemy and be as overpowered as the Paladin on every hit on every attack against a list of enemies that has an exclusion list the same length as the Paladin's inclusion list.
12th level Rogue 6d6 Sneak Attack = avg +21 damage
12th level Paladin smite against evil dragon, undead, evil outsider = +24 damage.
But his sneak attack is almost always on. Over the course of the adventure the rogue has a very good chance to outdamage the paladin.
I dont know if you watch basketball, but the paladin is like that guy that averages 12 points a game, but occasionally plays well and then score like 40 points by himself. The rogue is more like the guy that scores 20-25 points consistently.edit: also what MDT said.
But his sneak attack is almost always on. Over the course of the adventure the rogue has a very good chance to outdamage the paladin.
I dont know if you watch basketball, but the paladin is like that guy that averages 12 points a game, but occasionally plays well and then score like 40 points by himself. The rogue is more like the guy that scores 20-25 points consistently.edit: also what MDT said.
Dont you know that long term effects and averages are completely irrelavent to any and all discussions? What is this 'over the course of an adventure' blasphemy? That paladin is going to ruin my un-thought out park a dragon in front of the party and this should be awesome encounter! I dont care if he was a glorified warrior on a shiny horse for the other 3 encounters that day, he is Wrongbadfun overpowered munchkinism!
Dont you know that long term effects and averages are completely irrelavent to any and all discussions? What is this 'over the course of an adventure' blasphemy? That paladin is going to ruin my un-thought out park a dragon in front of the party and this should be awesome encounter! I dont care if he was a glorified warrior on a shiny horse for the other 3 encounters that day, he is Wrongbadfun overpowered munchkinism!But his sneak attack is almost always on. Over the course of the adventure the rogue has a very good chance to outdamage the paladin.
I dont know if you watch basketball, but the paladin is like that guy that averages 12 points a game, but occasionally plays well and then score like 40 points by himself. The rogue is more like the guy that scores 20-25 points consistently.edit: also what MDT said.
<bad idea>First of all its a dragon. It does not matter if it's CR means it should be a cakewalk*. It's a dragon. Dragons are always tough fights. Who needs strategy with a dragon?</bad idea>
*This reminds me of a complaint that a level 20 party wiped a Balor or Pit Fiend(I forget which), and the DM had some crazy idea that it was supposed to be a tough fight for them.
Moral of the story: A monster's name does not make a good fight.
edit:I removed the PS: