Making a second level gestalt Monk(pathfinder)/_________ (Pathfinder)
Thinking maybe; Human Monk/Paladin with sacred vow/vow of poverty for roleplaying aspects.
or; Human Monk/Fighter
Any thoughts which of these two would work best?
Monk/cleric would be better than both of those... Monk/ Druid would probably work well too.
Monk/cleric would be better than both of those... Monk/ Druid would probably work well too.
I've found monk/cleric to be a bit... cumbersome, somehow. I've had fun with monk/wizards and monk/sorcerers before though, so maybe I just need to re-analyze my approach. I don't see monk druid at all though. They seem like fairly conflicting archetypes to me.
With paladin you're losing armour, shield and weapon proficiencies. The mercy ability might work well. as well, you don't want to be too MAD, unless you've got the stats. As a monk you want high Dex, Wis, Con. Add Cha to that if you play a paladin. The best gestalt paladin i've seen is a paladin/sorcerer.
Personally, if i was stuck on Monk, i'd ditch both of them. Druid would be good, but once your wild shaping, then your natural attacks overlap with your unarmed strikes. The only exception to this is if you take 'Wild feats' (Complete Divine p.79) that enable you to spend wild shape attempts to get cool s+@%, like +7 Natural armour (Elephant's Hide), or a full attack at the end of a charge (Lion's Pounce). That last one works particuarly well with Cheetah's Speed - increases your base land speed to 50 ft.
But unless you go that route you'll suffer gestalt overlap.
Myself, i'd go for either Rogue (sneak attack to unarmed strike - there's also feats you can take to stack your unarmed strike with sneak attack) or if Forgotten Realms specific stuff is open to you, Wizard with Carmendine Monk (use Int instead of Wis to determine Monk AC)
btw, try and get the 'Sainthood' feat from Book of Exalted Deeds - perfect synergy.
If you don´t want to cast spells I would also say go for the Rogue. The Rogue talents have nice synergies with the monk, lots of skills and sneak attack (which you will use quite often thanks to the mobility of the monk).
On the other hand if you want to have a character with some spell casting think about the Inquisitor (if it is allowed, since not final yet):
- Wis-based casting + one domain power
- detect alignments
- nice skill boosts
- initiative improving feats
- judgements
and
- later the bane ability (+2 attack and +2D6 damage), which makes your unarmed attacks very nasty!
Also Monk/Inquisitor gives some nice hooks for background aspects...
One more idea might be Swordsage (ToB, if it's allowed). The Setting Sun discipline in particular stacks amazingly with Monk. You can take Assassin's Stance (+2d6 SA) plus if you took Rogue lvls as well, your sneak attack would be decent. It also opens up the Shadow Sun Ninja PrC. Very cool roleplaying possibilities.
The reason i suggested Wizard is with the transmutation and illusion spells like Transformation, Owl's Wisdom/Bear's Endurance/Cat's Grace, Blur, Mirror Image, (Greater) Invisibility etc. you'd be virtually untouchable.
i always liked the idea of a gestalt monk/barbarian
what about alignment conflict?
Wow, thanks for all the great suggestions. I know I am shooting myself in the foot by taking monk for min/max purposes, but I'd like to try to stay within Pathfinder classes as much as possible (no ToB or anything)
Also would like to "try" to be as frontline combative as possible. Interesting idea of the Monk/Inquis though...
You may want to look at this
While we're talking about APG classes, what of the alchemist? The opportunities for self-buffing and healing are pretty ludicrous, and with the right discoveries *cough*mutagen*cough you'll put barbarians to shame.
I have no idea how you'd explain the alch/monk gestalt with regards to character identity, so that might be an issue.
Oh hang on... science + fisticuffs = Sherlock Holmes!
While we're talking about APG classes, what of the alchemist? The opportunities for self-buffing and healing are pretty ludicrous, and with the right discoveries *cough*mutagen*cough you'll put barbarians to shame.
I have no idea how you'd explain the alch/monk gestalt with regards to character identity, so that might be an issue.
Oh hang on... science + fisticuffs = Sherlock Holmes!
Badass. That's a good idea. I've been eyeballing the witch for a similar purpose
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Monk/Cleric is sweet, i am running one through the sequel to crypt of the everflame, monk abilities with the edge in casting some sweet buffing and offensive spells, tie that in with the healing aspect and the monks imporved movement; i zip around the battlefield healing allies, yes the lack of armor has its downside but encumberance is not an issue, and the alignment requirement for monks limits the diety picks, but it is sweet
Monk/Cleric is sweet, i am running one through the sequel to crypt of the everflame, monk abilities with the edge in casting some sweet buffing and offensive spells, tie that in with the healing aspect and the monks imporved movement; i zip around the battlefield healing allies, yes the lack of armor has its downside but encumberance is not an issue, and the alignment requirement for monks limits the diety picks, but it is sweet
I agree entirely! I mean one of the great things about the Cleric/Monk combo is the the emphasis on the Wisdom stat. I basically took 1 level in Monk for background but even the first level stuff is pretty awesome.
I mean need to stack Wis for spells, and it just keeps adding to your AC. Toss in a ring of protection/ bracers of armor and you can jump up there pretty quickly. It would take a few upgrades but a 9 Cleric/1 Monk can pass 22 AC. Also the Wis bonus is very nice for Touch and Flat-Footed ACs.
Also, having that Improved Unarmed strike means you have some chances to flank while you're getting in to heal your party. Flurry is also handy. Stunning fist could be useful.
The Monk class skills include stealth, which can be valuable to a group. I've found acrobatics more useful than I thought.
A few more skill points by taking a level in Monk is nice.
And most of this is just from 1 level in Monk. Personally, for my own particular style/taste 4 levels in Monk would give me most of what I'd want out of it, any additional levels to be taken depending on how combat-heavy the character turns out. I'm going way more caster, but it has been fun. I mean prep a touch spell, then deliver it as part of a flurry of blows? Throw a trip attack in there... Lots of possibilities...
As far as mixing Melee and Caster, Oracle is looking pretty interesting! If you've not put one together, give it a shot, I know mine turned out way more combat viable than I thought it would!
Monk//Fighter would have tons of feats, Good BAB even when not flurrying, and better hit points.
Monk//Rogue would be a great skirmisher, and sneak attack + flurry of blows would be pretty devastating.
Monk//Ranger would be pretty versatile, and the ranger goodies would help with mobility, plus some nice divine spells based on Wisdom.
Monk//Paladin would be pretty cool, if a bit MAD; don't REALLY need a super high Charisma, but if you do, your Saves will be phenomenal!!!
Monk//Druid would be an extremely versatile hermit. Druid is one of the most versatile classes out there, and adding Monk to it ups its mobility and defenses. The monk self-healing would be a nice addition to the sub-optimal healing of the druid.
Monk//Cleric would be pretty versatile as well, as well as a great self-buffer.
Monk//Sorcerer and/or Monk//Wizard can be interesting too. You can basically use the Monk stuff as a trump card if you run out of spells, and some of the bloodlines and/or school powers are really neat when mixed with melee combat. A Monk//Battle Sorcerer variant from Unearthed Arcana would be particularly frightening in battle--I'm thinking a Wraith Strike flurry of blows!
Monk//Bard would be a really neat support character. I'm thinking of those scholarly monks that sing and study in their monasteries.
Thanks everyone for the info! Making my choice even harder.
Even though Monk//cleric and monk//Inquis really grab me, for the sake of the group dynamics I am looking to fighter or paladin.
group so far has;
cleric,
cleric/fighter
summoner
wizard
thief
thief/beguiler
So looking at the rest I'm thinking they need so frontline muscle. And even though doing a fighter//paladin gest might be more of a powerhouse - I REALLY am itching to rollplay out a Monk with a Caine (from Kung Fu) type feeling. Maybe a monk of Illmater - from the Monastery of the Yellow Rose in Damara.
So...with that in mind I still come to the choice -
Monk//Fighter vs.
Monk//Paladin
While we're talking about APG classes, what of the alchemist? The opportunities for self-buffing and healing are pretty ludicrous, and with the right discoveries *cough*mutagen*cough you'll put barbarians to shame.
I have no idea how you'd explain the alch/monk gestalt with regards to character identity, so that might be an issue.
Oh hang on... science + fisticuffs = Sherlock Holmes!
I was thinking along the "Internal Alchemy" gestalt Alchemist/Monk combination, an early progression into Enlightened Immortality.
The discoveries would be ones that affect oneself exclusively to fit the theme, along with mundane alchemy skill and a philosophical bent that tends to seem a bit "odd" to conventional thought processes.
Gestalt Alchemist/Monk also lends itself very well to an 'investigator' type of character.
Suggested 'maximized' skills are Craft (alchemy), Knowledge (religion) and Perception. Filling out the concept and general character functionality should eat the rest of your skill ranks like so many candy corn. ^_^
Thanks everyone for the info! Making my choice even harder.
Even though Monk//cleric and monk//Inquis really grab me, for the sake of the group dynamics I am looking to fighter or paladin.
group so far has;
cleric,
cleric/fighter
summoner
wizard
thief
thief/beguilerSo looking at the rest I'm thinking they need so frontline muscle. And even though doing a fighter//paladin gest might be more of a powerhouse - I REALLY am itching to rollplay out a Monk with a Caine (from Kung Fu) type feeling. Maybe a monk of Illmater - from the Monastery of the Yellow Rose in Damara.
So...with that in mind I still come to the choice -
Monk//Fighter vs.
Monk//Paladin
Basically, do you want a character with consistent powers or occasionally awesome powers. The fighter bonus feats are "always on," where as the paladin's abilities focus on bringing down a single BBEG a few times a day, plus some healing powers. Although it would be cool if you could use your unarmed strikes as your divine bond weapon.
Is the rest of your party gestalt, or just some of them?
Actually since we create PC's on a point system none of them rolled stats well enough and used creation points to reroll things. I rolled stats well enough to use my points in taking gestalt, so I'll be the only one.
Wow, you get to be gestalt in a party of normals? Brutal.
As for your options: Crossing a tank class with monk doesn't really net an exceptional gain for you. Monks already flurry as though they had full BAB, and you won't be wearing armor, so you're already out the two most relevant strengths of fighters and paladins.
If you're sure you want to go that route, though, I think I'd go with fighter. Focus/spec/weapon training (unarmed) is a recipe for crazy blender fists, and you'll be an absolute terror with combat maneuvers. You'll have more feats than you could possibly use, since the monk comes prepackaged with so many.
The paladin is probably more resilient in the long run, but much of that defensive utility overlaps with the monk, wheras the fighter nets greater utility out of the monk's better saves, mobility, and exotic defenses like diamond soul. Besides, your party already has 2 clerics, and it'll hamper your character to have to toss points into charisma as well as wisdom and the physicals.
The only other thing I can think of is to go monk//ranger; then you can really dump your Int score and still get good skills with your full BAB.
I think the fighter//monk with weapon focus/specialization/weapon training is the best bet for crazy blender fists.
The only real advantage I can think of for the paladin is the Divine Bond class feature applying to your fists, so you can get a +5 amulet of mighty fists and still add holy, flaming burst, brilliant energy, etc., to them.
But if you're going the Vow of Poverty way, you won't have any magic items anyways. I played a VoP monk once, and it was a little boring not getting excited about the loot of our vanquished foes. Also, it lead to deep philosophical debates about holding someone's torch for them.
Thanks again for the help. Nice to have more info than just jumping into a class blind.
btw - for the monks attacks would the feat Improved Natural Attack
Improved Natural Attack
Attacks made by one of this creature’s natural attacks
leave vicious wounds.
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms.
The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on
the following list, as if the creature’s size had increased by
one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4,
1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage
increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
Would this apply to the monk and raise his unarmed damage up?
INA has explicitly ruled out being used with unarmed strikes. Natural attacks only.
Just crunching some numbers, here:
Gestalt Monk+Rogue 11 gives Flurry of Blows, take Minor Magic (Enlarge), Medusa's Wrath... With Monk's Robe, you are looking at a guy that can do 5+2(+1 with Ki) attacks at 2d8+6d6. Crunchy crunchy...
Personally, my favourite option would be Monk 20+Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 4/Druid 3/Master of Many Forms 3/Warshaper 2/Arcane Hierophant 7.
Just crunching some numbers, here:
Gestalt Monk+Rogue 11 gives Flurry of Blows, take Minor Magic (Enlarge), Medusa's Wrath... With Monk's Robe, you are looking at a guy that can do 5+2(+1 with Ki) attacks at 2d8+6d6. Crunchy crunchy...Personally, my favourite option would be Monk 20+Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 4/Druid 3/Master of Many Forms 3/Warshaper 2/Arcane Hierophant 7.
So all things considered equal in stats - how would your Monk+Rogue look like against a Monk+Paladin at same level?
My vote is on the Monk/Paladin (tried to get the Monk in our CoT game to dip into Paladin).
Incredible saves, potentially incredible AC, powerful powerful offense, with free two-weapon fighting to get that many more smite hits.
That, plus the class philosophies merge pretty well - I think you'll have a blast with it. [sort of like a Caine from "Kung Fu" perhaps].
Making a second level gestalt Monk(pathfinder)/_________ (Pathfinder)
Thinking maybe; Human Monk/Paladin with sacred vow/vow of poverty for roleplaying aspects.
or; Human Monk/Fighter
Any thoughts which of these two would work best?
I would definitely go monk/rogue in preference to either of these. Monk/[sorcerer or wizard] can work but only if you have an incidentally high intelligence or charisma - if you are using point-buy they are not going to be awesome - and use your spells to self-buff rather than attack. Monk/paladin and monk/fighter have aspects to recommend them, but ...
My best suggestion would be to go monk/psychic warrior, if it was available. The monk suffers from poor AC and a lack of synergistic powers. The psychic warrior's powers can overcome all of these, and wisdom is their manifesting ability. The powers I would choose are:
1st: Inertial Armour (+4 armour bonus to your AC like mage armour)
2nd: Force Screen (+4 shield bonus to AC as shield)
3rd: metaphysical weapon (+1 (augmentable) to a weapon (your unarmed strike) magical bonus, gets over problems with DR and lower BAB)
Then you get the 2nd-level powers at 4th level:
4th: Hustle (Hustle gives you an extra move action, now you can use that fast monk movement AND use flurry of blows in the same round!).
Yeah I wish I could select that, but I spent my buy points gaining gestalt. So now each class has to be from Pathfinder.
I can still select from just about any Feat out there (3.5 or Pathfinder)
So this might be the factor on which to play...Monk//Paladin or Monk//Fighter
My stats rolled with 4d6 drop lowest came out to be;
Str 15
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 17
Wis 14 (human +2) 16
Chr 14
I can still move the Human's +2 to which ever stat would work best...
Any suggestions on Feats? Flying Kick? Kung Fu Genius and use human starting bonus in Int?
Hmm, with this stats, i would go ranger.
The HD, BaB and Skillpoints come in handy, favored enemy can really shine if you guess right (or know what you will be fighting in the campain) and you can go the archery-route to make your shurikens hit better and harder (something very usefull now, as you can flurry with em and thanks to Deadly Aim they do some damage...).
Also, a few spells and an animal companion are nothing to sneeze at, too.
The +2 should go into str imo...
Ah, and have you read this?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/treantmon k-s-guide-to-monks
On second thought, all 3.5 feats allowed?
Put the +2 into Int, pick Kung-Fu genius and gestallt with an Wizard.
Early on you rock cause you are a Monk, later on you rock cause you are a wizard.
Get some nice reserve feats and you are set.
Bonus: You can cast many very good buff spells on yourself (mage armos, enlarge, mirror image and the like), you have excellent saves and ac for a mage and your monk-talents can really save your ass in situations a normal wizard is SOL (poisoned, grappled, antimagic field, ...)
If you can go Spell Compendium, I would go Monk//Wizard with the Kung Fu Genius feat (Int to AC). There is a 2nd level spell called Wraith Strike that is cast as a swift action and lets you resolve all your melee attacks for the round as touch attacks. I might go Transmuter, for the floating physical stat boost. Or Diviner for the initiative trick.