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As a DM its always decissions, decissions....
I am in a little delema right now, the module that i am running calls for some harsh punshment on players. I can be comfortable with it but in was hoping to get a little 3rd person feed back on it before running it. Currently the party is on a ship and on the ship are some under-cover agents of the big bad evil. One openly betrays the party by sabatoging the ship to operate at half speed. The rest are perpared to Coup de grâce the party while sleep. Which gives them 3 saves before dieing. (sneaking into room, stealth check, fort save)....
I feel I could do it to them as a DM but should I is the question?
Roll the saves in secret. They all should sleep in the same room, hopefully even near each other. 1 should wake up in the first round, creating more noise for the other players to get more perception checks to wake up. You should be able to play this to them as IF they could actually fail everything and die, but make sure that they can't. Make sure you don't tell them.
I think it would be a very bad idea to roll the characters saving throws for them, when their lives depend on these rolls.
The characters are theirs, and they have the right to roll for them.
This being said, you can ask them to roll d20 in front of you, checking their save bonus without telling them what they are rolling for.
Is the party AWARE that there are enemy spies on board, or have they been given the opportunity to find out about this?
If I was playing in an adventure and was suddenly told that the entire party was dead and we had NO clue it was coming and not even a clue what was going on beforehand, i'd feel cheated and most likely seek a new DM or group.
Remember you're telling a story. Twist it and make it fun, definitely add twists and double agents and such, but do it in a matter so that the players are *part* of that story and not just a random redshirt who didn't even see it coming.
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making the group aware of the onboard danger is the open sabatoge that is storylined, but im fearful that the group wont take it serious enough. Im questioning if i should erase the stealth kill attempt at night but i feel like im suger coating it. i see what you mean tho, my goal is to make an interesting story for my players i just dont want them to feel like superman.
Is the party AWARE that there are enemy spies on board, or have they been given the opportunity to find out about this?
If I was playing in an adventure and was suddenly told that the entire party was dead and we had NO clue it was coming and not even a clue what was going on beforehand, i'd feel cheated and most likely seek a new DM or group.
Remember you're telling a story. Twist it and make it fun, definitely add twists and double agents and such, but do it in a matter so that the players are *part* of that story and not just a random redshirt who didn't even see it coming.
I'd agree with this.
My own "houserule" version is that no character dies by random chance. No meteor strikes. No "you wake up dead" scenarios. UNLESS the players bring it on themselves.
Insult the Red Mantis assassins? Yeah, you knew better. Moon a dragon? Start stating up a new character.
Sailing on a boat to find out that a random PC is now dead? No, absolutely not.
Please follow up and let us know why you're considering a TPK.
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I like to think of it this way. What is more fun for me and the players. Telling them a few of them died because the bad guys snuck in thier room and they failed a save ... or .. Having one wake up with the bag guy holding his mouth, and ready to stab a dagger into him. He can then grab the knife, and get into a fight, where all the other party hears his bed banging and thrashing, and him grunting and knowing there are only other men aboard. At least until he manages to yell for help. They the killer dies on his own knife, leaving only question and suspicions of who else might be a part...
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well its not what i want to bring on the party, but some back info is they have steam roll alot of my encounters. I want to challenge them out of combat. They mostly spec thier characters for defeating anything I put against them. the only way to do anything is with a stick at night anymore. a suggestion from the book i was considering
knowing my group they are all in different rooms with big beds.... greed is the down fall to a group.. lol.
letting them die in there sleep seems mean but i cant suger coat D&D not any fun then.
Sugar coating is definetly not the way to go, but it is also dangerous to TPK when the party can't fight back, specifically. Some other options/ideas for you. Give a % chance that one of the agents will accidentally kill a ship's crewman instead of a PC. Give the players an opportunity to interact with the agents and some Sense Motive checks (they roll, you add their modifier to help prevent metagaming). If they are still foolish enough to all be in separate rooms, doors unlocked, no sort of alarm or guard up, and they all still fail their checks and saves.... I really have no pity for them, they did it to themselves, and well, at least making new characters is a ton of fun!
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Are your players 'hard core gamers'?
Are they over 5th level?
Do they realize they have been poking their fingers in EVIL business?
If you can answer 'Yes' to all of the above, then hammer them.
They are not regular folks on a boat ride. They are heroic adventurers who should realize they have made enemies along the way.
If you do kill them all, take the time to explain how their hubris caused their downfall.
Or, maybe, I just want to see the fallout from the TPK.
[evil_laugh] Bwa Ha Ha Ha [/evil_laugh]
Let the players roll, or roll in front of them.
This seems like a really wretched adventure design, since this situation is likely to result in the GM saying "You wake up dead."
I would actually describe the parties (anonymously) creeping into the room in a narrative style instead of from the player's perspective. Really milk the suspense by describing creaking floorboards... perhaps the character snorts as though he's about to awaken but doesn't.... Then I would have the players make the rolls themselves (simultaneously for dramatic flair) even though the PCs are unable to knowingly react. Fit the saves into the scene so the players know very well what they are rolling for, and what consequences hang on each roll.
That's how I'd make the best of this bad situation. Good luck!
Wear your helmet, and park close.
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I play Pathfinder in order to have fun. PCs dying non-glorious deaths never seem fun to me.
For something like this, I would have no problem letting the players roll the dice and regardless "fix" the situation so that the PCs have an honest to goodness chance.
I'd probably go about it like "I need you all to roll some saves for me. I'll explain in a moment. Yeah don't worry, if you fail you die, so no pressure. Three rolls each please."
Look at the rolls and shake head, and note who had the lowest roll and who had the highest.
First: To the one who rolled highest, regardless of the actual roll, they wake and get a chance to fight off the assailant then warn the others.
Second: The one who rolled the lowest, regardless of the actual roll, I would have them attacked and wounded (probably using a poison as well). The attack does not kill them outright but I would reduce their HP by 1/2 at the least, then have them roll against the poison (something like an additional CON damage or something). Mess up the low roller bad but let him live... barely.
Third: The others wake up JUST in time to avoid the same fate.
Make sure they are NOT wearing armor nor armed unless they normally sleep in armor and armed (dwarven fighters come to mind! lol).
This method has the benefit of letting them FEEL the fear that they BARELY avoided being killed in their sleep. That they have to fight unequipped, and just might die anyway, but at least die fighting. They get to EXPERIENCE the betrayal first hand and respond to it.
Remember, by removing their adventuring equipment, they are likely to be MUCH weaker than usual, and have a good chance of dying anyway.
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Here is my advice for what it is worth :
A ship is NOT an Inn.
This plan as you have explained it is sheer lunacy on the part of the agents.
Firstly unless you have magical ocean liner sized vessels most sea going ships of a "medieval" time frame could only carry a hand full of passengers (as opposed to crews). This means that basically unless the agents have infiltrated the ships crew for a while, the moment anything bad happens the agents and the party are the immediate suspects.
Secondly the agents can't just kill the party and get on their horses and ride away - they are in the middle of the ocean. If the captain and crew haven't been compromised the guilty parties will be obvious. Note that this works both ways.
So how are the agents supposed to succeed with this plan?
Are they religious fanatics who are promised eternal happiness if they die in this task? If so they can go right ahead. Live or die the agents will have their rewards and will probably kill themselves after killing the party anyways.
If they are professional hit men and the party MUST be eliminated during the voyage then they need to set things up to make the party look bad and have the Captain rule against them (punishment from being put in the brig up to keel hauling, marooned or walking the plank.
Otherwise they should be observing the party as unobtrusively as possible, getting as much information about their mannerisms, appearances, powers, feats and gear so as to report back to their boss.
With this intelligence their evil leader could start a smear campaign using look a likes, or rumors, or even prepare a strike team trained in expecting the player's logical tactics (but not the exact tactics unless the agents have seen the party in action a few times).
If they were really clever (but depends heavily on Role playing and just how paranoid your players are) have one or more of the agents offer to become a vassal/cohort etc especially if a party member is talking about getting or having leadership.
This puts an inside man who can mislead the party and report back until the villain is ready to strike.
If you do some of the above maybe in the long run the party would wish that they just got attacked that night ...
I like most of the above but I hate the idea of using a cohort from the leadership feat against the party.
After all it defeats the primary premise of the leadership feat -- an ally that you can trust, and that will fight for you. That's the sort of thing that would quickly lead to me playing "against" the DM. You wouldn't use Toughness as an opening to screw the party (and this is screwing the whole party not just the one character) by hitting them with something of much higher CR because they are "tough".
Beyond that point -- I like what Nikolaus has.
As a DM its always decissions, decissions....
I am in a little delema right now, the module that i am running calls for some harsh punshment on players. I can be comfortable with it but in was hoping to get a little 3rd person feed back on it before running it. Currently the party is on a ship and on the ship are some under-cover agents of the big bad evil. One openly betrays the party by sabatoging the ship to operate at half speed. The rest are perpared to Coup de grâce the party while sleep. Which gives them 3 saves before dieing. (sneaking into room, stealth check, fort save)....
I feel I could do it to them as a DM but should I is the question?
That depends on your group. Is this an evil campaign? If so they should be expecting to die at some point so off with their heads. If it is not then why is a PC(that is how I understood it), betraying the party.
I might need more information on this one.
Wear your helmet, and park close.
LOL, good advice.
I like most of the above but I hate the idea of using a cohort from the leadership feat against the party.
After all it defeats the primary premise of the leadership feat -- an ally that you can trust, and that will fight for you. That's the sort of thing that would quickly lead to me playing "against" the DM. You wouldn't use Toughness as an opening to screw the party (and this is screwing the whole party not just the one character) by hitting them with something of much higher CR because they are "tough".
Beyond that point -- I like what Nikolaus has.
There is a cohort involved? That cohort should be very loyal to whoever has the feat. I think its a very bad idea unless the cohort has been horribly mistreated, and is evil or is afraid he has no other options.
Best thing I ever did to a group on a boat was kill an NPC at night, that a PC had argued with - with a hat of disguise to look like one of the PCs. Why the disguise? Speak with Dead, instantly convicting the PC.
That said - if you go through with this, but want to give them a chance, and make it realistic, there's a lot of good ideas above. Also, 4 rogues picking locks "simultaneously" is an unlikely event. Depending on positioning, they may start at different times, and random chance may have them finish at different times.
Roll all that out, in front of the PCs ("The first pauses but a moment at his door, and with a quick of his wrist unlocks it (that natural 20 you rolled). The second however inserts his false key, and finds it doesn't fit the luck. Cursing softly he continues to work, growing more frustrated (a - to stealth when he gets in).
Key point - the rogue who goes in the fastest? Happens to be on the PC with the best perception check (since they don't know who you were rolling for.)
I will also add that if you are doing this because they steamroll encounters it is the wrong reason. More details please.
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Ah but Abraham, consider the following situation -
A player has stated that he wants to eventually have a cohort, he may not have the leadership feat yet.
So as an exercise in role playing you as DM introduce one of these agents as a possible cohort - for future purchase of the feat (probably at next level).
Now if in the interim the player treats this agent fairly, generously and looks after them, maybe even saves their life etc, when the time comes to buy the feat the NPC realises that the player would make a much better leader and renounces his old loyalties - possibly at a most dramatic moment too, thwarting the villain's plans and saving his new leader.
Its just a thought and not the first time such a thing has happened in literature.
So in the long run, when it counts the cohort becomes loyal and proves the loyalty without a doubt.
But as in all things I post, your mileage may vary.
As a DM its always decissions, decissions....
I am in a little delema right now, the module that i am running calls for some harsh punshment on players. I can be comfortable with it but in was hoping to get a little 3rd person feed back on it before running it. Currently the party is on a ship and on the ship are some under-cover agents of the big bad evil. One openly betrays the party by sabatoging the ship to operate at half speed. The rest are perpared to Coup de grâce the party while sleep. Which gives them 3 saves before dieing. (sneaking into room, stealth check, fort save)....
I feel I could do it to them as a DM but should I is the question?
Your PCs should establish a "night guard" routine, especially under these circumstances. If they don't ... kill zem all. Players should learn about this at some point after all.
You have it already - Stealth vs. Perception (penalized for sleeping characters) after any checks by the bad guys to bypass the lock and/or any traps set by the characters. Then they have to move into position (second Stealth vs. Perception check series) to administer the coup de gras.
Clever characters can use illusions and/or disguises (ala Lord of the Rings) to dupe the baddies, at least in theory.
In a situation like this, if it was me, I wouldn't make the nightime stabfest be an instant death sort of deal but rather a warning of sorts. I'd have the agents have a plan of how to quickly get out of sight (which should likely fail for at least one of the agents, depending on player rolls) and also have one of the agents apply some sort of poison to his weapon so that the pc's get the following message "We're out to kill you, and could do so whenever we wanted, and one of you is dying"
This gives the players motivation and knowledge about the situation. Or if that's too showy for the agents, at least give the players some opportunity to figure out that there's a plot afoot.
well its not what i want to bring on the party, but some back info is they have steam roll alot of my encounters. I want to challenge them out of combat. They mostly spec thier characters for defeating anything I put against them. the only way to do anything is with a stick at night anymore. a suggestion from the book i was considering
Sounds to me like you're having difficulty finding proper challenges for them. There are many ways to challenge a character both in and out of combat, even if they are twinked out and maximized for certain things. A maximized character ALWAYS has wide open gaps for weaknesses because they're front loading their character in one specific thing.
Have a weapon character that's specialized 150% in his weapon so he can make peoples heads explode? Put him in situations where he is denied his weapon to challenge him. Heat metal, rust monsters, disenchant, stealing it, breaking it, shatter spells, whatever works to get it away from them to put them in a challenging situation. Don't be mean about it and deny it from them permanently, but it's one situation to pit them against.
Combat maneuvers are (i think) hugely overlooked. Have a problem with characters moving around the battlefield constantly, or constantly doing full round action attacks that obliterate everything? Start tripping them. Now they're facing AoOs and don't get a full action. Give your bad guys improved and greater trip, along with combat reflexes and they can trip at +4, provoke no AoO themselves, and force TWO AoO's on the party member tripped (One going down, one getting back up). Fury's Fall (Cheliax companion) can add dex bonus to the trip CMB.
Is your party min/maxed? Do the same with your bad guys. No sense in throwing a boss at them who's stock when the party themselves are using every stack, tweak, and dirty trick in the book. No sense that the bad guys can't do the same to even the playing field.
Non direct threats can challenge them. Traps. Tons of traps! Remember that other hazards can act like traps without being an actual mechanical set trap. A hazardous cliff with rockfalls and such is one example. Haunts (See Rise of the Runelords AP#2) are an awesome way to challenge the party without them even combating an enemy... although they may end up trying to kill each other or themselves!
Throw other challenges at them. Political, financial, even fame can work for or against them. What if they come to a town where everyone hates them because they look like local hooligans, or were hired to help the town in some big way but failed (either of their own fault or machinations of some other evil force), or were even framed for something they didn't do. On the other hand, what if they NEED to lay low but are famous and hailed as heroes, and draw crowds and have people try to buy them drinks, when all they want is to stay out of sight for fear of drawing the attention of the villain their way?
I could go on. If you're having problems challenging your players, saying "You get to roll a save or die while you sleep" isn't giving your players challenge. It's a quick way to an empty table. Trust me, there are many ways to give the players a fighting chance for survival that's still challenging to their skills, no matter how skilled they think they are. There's always someone or something out there far more skilled than they are.
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Here is my suggestion role play out the assassination leave your divine or arcane spell caster for last as he is about to be killed he awakens from this deadly premonition everyone is fine. this should put everyone on their toes a bit. let three or four nights go by then have the attempt occur, with the players having a better chance as they have now been made awares by the premonition. Now you can't use this sort of thing very often, but if you have never done this with your players, or it has been years then it can be a great night of gaming as the roller coaster of emotions goes through the players. What I'm dead, oh it was just a dream (paranoia) ensues with the party happily killing the would be assassins. If you give this a try please let me know how it works for ya.