I see two totally separate "epic" paths that people want to see.
Some of us (I'll readily admit I'm one of them) want to see an ELH-style extension of play to levels 21 and beyond.
Others want something entirely different - divine ascension, battles of the gods, etc. Not what I want, but I can certainly see its appeal.
I think the distinction needs to be made, however - they're not the same thing - and when I say "epic" I mean just an extension of the current rules, but to much higher levels.
Perhaps without stupid rules for epic magic. That'd be keen :)
To be clear, I wouldn't mind an ELH type "beyond 21st level" rulebook at all, as long as it's not as horrible as the ELH was.
To be clear, I wouldn't mind an ELH type "beyond 21st level" rulebook at all, as long as it's not as horrible as the ELH was.
In your opinion :)
My gaming table likes the existing ELH a lot.
... except for the epic magic, which just doesn't work - creating simple spells costs piles of gold and XP.
I have to back zurai here the ELH was...crap mostly. It tried to do too much so did nothing well. I do like james ideal of epic going from 21-30 or 36. I like that ideal alot really after all demon lords who are close as godlike as any being are CR 33-36
Hands TOZ some rum
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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To be clear, I wouldn't mind an ELH type "beyond 21st level" rulebook at all, as long as it's not as horrible as the ELH was.In your opinion :)
My gaming table likes the existing ELH a lot.
... except for the epic magic, which just doesn't work - creating simple spells costs piles of gold and XP.
So your group has used the ELH extensively?
You've run campaigns in the 21-60 (or so) range and are still satisfied with the system?
More info would be helpful on this.
I understand people _wanting_ 20+ rules in theory. I have a harder time understanding how anyone could use the official rules for this under 3.0 without wanting to break all their miniatures, tip over all their paint jars, burn all their books, and smash their dice into powder.
But that's just me.
Obviously, our opinions on this differ, so I'd like to hear more about yours. :)
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So, this is a good question. I have heard a number of people talk about taking Pathfinder in directions that D&D hasn't gone before. I have done a lot of brainstorms on this topic and it is really hard to find ideas for books that haven't already been done during the 30+ year history of D&D.
So, what are ideas for products that haven't been done a million times before?
-Lisa
This is probably a longshot but I would like to see a more kid-friendly Pathfinder. My son is about one y/o now and obviously won't be playing anytime soon but I'd love to have something that was a little more G-rated for him when he's old enough to play.
I'm not asking for a complete revamp or to displace any other Pathfinder stuff. It would just be nice to get a few starter modules or kits that had less gore, skulls and Seoni boob shots in the artwork and maybe also some suggestions on what rules to streamline (if any).I'm not 100% sure yet what content would work but I would imagine a more Disney-ish look at fairy tales and legends would do the trick. And maybe the kit or module would have accessories that would appeal to kids like maps, a handful of cards with artwork of the heroes/villains, handouts to draw on or even some paper minis.
But why is the rum gone?
awww sorry bout that wanna cookie?
ya can have some too, but TOZ drunk all the rum, so you'll have to eat em without rum I fear
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This is probably a longshot but I would like to see a more kid-friendly Pathfinder. My son is about one y/o now and obviously won't be playing anytime soon but I'd love to have something that was a little more G-rated for him when he's old enough to play.
I'm not asking for a complete revamp or to displace any other Pathfinder stuff. It would just be nice to get a few starter modules or kits that had less gore, skulls and Seoni boob shots in the artwork and maybe also some suggestions on what rules to streamline (if any).
I'm not 100% sure yet what content would work but I would imagine a more Disney-ish look at fairy tales and legends would do the trick. And maybe the kit or module would have accessories that would appeal to kids like maps, a handful of cards with artwork of the heroes/villains, handouts to draw on or even some paper minis.
This is a good ideal, I recently ran my 8 year old though her first pathfinder game. She rolled up a dwarf barbarian and proceeded to turn what I was making a cartoony goblin fight, with knock out and such into a bloodbath as she yelled, made swinging motions with her hands and proceeded to declare "I chop it's head off!" with a bit too much enthusiasm. she then shot the run trying to run with her bow and stacked all the head it "little piles" and declared herself " Sara stonecutter goblin slayer!" with much posing
She has since slain kobolds goblins and giant weasels. I really have lost the "bloodless" G rating fight I think.
But a basic set style is a great ideal
Did Lilith make it?
But why is the rum gone?awww sorry bout that wanna cookie?
Alas no, but passable
Alas no, but passableDid Lilith make it?
But why is the rum gone?awww sorry bout that wanna cookie?
Lilith doesn't make cookies, she bakes cake.
Mmmm... cake ...
Yes, I'm about to set a game up for my kids in the next few weeks. Don't know if we'll all make it to Paizocon UK yet, though, as money is seriously tight this year. I'm wondering if a "Basic" game is possible though, without doing too many simplifications.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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This is a good ideal, I recently ran my 8 year old though her first pathfinder game. She rolled up a dwarf barbarian and proceeded to turn what I was making a cartoony goblin fight, with knock out and such into a bloodbath as she yelled, made swinging motions with her hands and proceeded to declare "I chop it's head off!" with a bit too much enthusiasm. she then shot the run trying to run with her bow and stacked all the head it "little piles" and declared herself " Sara stonecutter goblin slayer!" with much posing
She has since slain kobolds goblins and giant weasels. I really have lost the "bloodless" G rating fight I think.
But a basic set style is a great ideal
I'm sure this isn't waht you want to hear... but that is so cute!
*ahem*
Anyway, a Pathfinder colouring book might be a hoot. Especially if we could get a simplified line sketch of the cover of burnt offerings, I'd love to see 8 year olds take on goblin colours :-)
Well it was cute, and she did have a great time..if a bit bloodthristy. Heh she does love the goblins as well.
We need a plushy sooooooooooooooooooo bad lol.
So your group has used the ELH extensively?
You've run campaigns in the 21-60 (or so) range and are still satisfied with the system?
More info would be helpful on this.
I understand people _wanting_ 20+ rules in theory. I have a harder time understanding how anyone could use the official rules for this under 3.0 without wanting to break all their miniatures, tip over all their paint jars, burn all their books, and smash their dice into powder.
But that's just me.
Obviously, our opinions on this differ, so I'd like to hear more about yours. :)
It's taken effort. I'll write a longer answer when I'm not at work, but in summary I've found the following to be important:
1. Limited house rules (it's hard enough to get all the rules straight without making up additional ones).
2. Low magic (meaning magic items, not spells).
3. Having a specific story arc (i.e. time pressure and things the characters need to accomplish).
4. Making plot as important (or more important) than combat.
I run a level 40 event with pregen characters once or twice a year at local cons, and it's always been fun, so it's not a unique dynamic of my particular players.
So your group has used the ELH extensively?
You've run campaigns in the 21-60 (or so) range and are still satisfied with the system?
Obviously, our opinions on this differ, so I'd like to hear more about yours. :)
Im not gbonehead, but Ill bite anyway.
Satisfied? Hardly, content, perhaps. Ive found that a slimed down version work out for my group for 3.x and PF.
1) The feats are ok, although some are underpowered.
2) We dont use epic spells, although I sometimes use 4e style "rituals" as plot devices. Improved casting is otherwise sufficient.
3) The epic magic item economics dont work. I stick to ordinary items, and WoW-style sets.
4) Focus on the monsters. Epic npcs are always outgunned, or too hard to play right.
This gives a lower power curve than the full rules, and works fairly ok at level 30. The characters are still insanely powerful, but this not a flaw, but a feature, as they say.
I hope Paizo choose to build on what is established in the Core book and not change too much of the overall system at level 21. Actually what I need most is proper pcgen support of the current guidelines, and a bunch of new monsters. An Epic Level Leaflet is sufficient for me.
Sorry to dig this back up, but on the subject of redone books and ideas for future books, etc. it just occurred to me:
One of my favorite books, which was a 3.0 book, was the Stronghold Builder's Guide. This thing was incredibly valuable for both players and GMs for how to build a stronghold, what a generally good layout was for a stronghold, how much it cost to build a strong hold, and had a bevy of magic items perfect for stronghold use, etc. etc. etc. It was a relatively slender paperback volume but chock full of stuff I find useful to this day--even though converting from 3.0 (not 3.5) to Pathfinder can get headachey if I want to use some of the more specific items in there.
I don't know if the upcoming GMG will have anything like that in there, but along with the general requests for campaign building guidelines, etc. I thought I'd toss out a similar request for something like the SBG to show up in a future supplement. I don't think it should be copied word for word or anything, but just something of the same general idea with some sample maps and guidelines would be fantastic.
Yes, I found that book useful, although it didn't have some of the features I was looking for in it. I have to say the section on magic that you could enchant into buildings very useful, though!
1) The feats are ok, although some are underpowered.
Then there's Vorpal Strike, and the infinitely stacking Great Smiting.
4) Focus on the monsters. Epic npcs are always outgunned, or too hard to play right.
Definitely. NPCs at high levels are most certainly *NOT* CR = level - 1. Quite a bit lower, I'd say... and moreso as players increase in level.