In a game where you can live and die by a single point of damage, 117 is not close enough to 150. 37 points is still enough room to move around, and not die in the first round with.As long as no critical hits kick in.
And the list of variables grows longer... and longer... and longer...
Can someone at Paizo give Seltiyel some AC? Anybody got a ring or anything? PC level appropriate wealth plz? Somebody get this guy a helmet! He's got black dragons trying to eat him!
So, what sort of melee combat is he capable at? The article says he's quite capable in melee combat. I want to know what on earth he's quite capable in melee combat with.
Actually, no, I don't. I know he's completely incompetent at melee combat. I just wanted to make fun of that blog post, since it's either a baldfaced lie or a completely incompetent blunder.
But that wasn't what you originally posted. You said he could only inflict 1d8+7 damage, and you were wrong. If your point was that this particular build could not handle a level appropriate challenge with his suboptimal wealth level of equipment, you should have said that in the first place.
How many straight fighters could handle this encounter without level-appropriate gear? Precious few, as their gear is often what makes them work.
The idea of a gish build is not that he is better than the fighter at fighting or better than the wizard at casting. It is that he has more options that either alone has. Against another wizard, he can counter-spell and get in close to hammer them with his superior melee skill. Against a fighter he can stand well back and let spells wear them down.
Against the Dragon, he'd use magic and not close to melee until he was out of spells, had his buffs up and running and it was mostly dead, and he can use true strike and his good initiative to get it before it gets him. If it gets the drop on him, he's likely to use dimension door to get well away, retreat, prepare the most appropriate spells for kicking it's ass and then come back and do this at a later date.
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MIB / Jared, can I ask you something?
Do you actually LIKE to play Pathfinder? I have to assume you do, since you seem to spend a LOT of time on these message boards posting and you did enter this year's RPG Superstar contest.
Yet, you seem to spend a large portion of your time here being argumentative, combinative and generally trying to point out what you don't like about Pathfinder at the drop of the proverbial hat. I mean, it's one thing to post a thought, comment or opinion, and even to follow up on it, but you will go on for page after page basically just arguing point after point. In fact, I know many people that feel that as soon as they see you jump into a thread, the thread pretty much stops being worthwhile because it inevitably just degrades into pointless bickering. At BEST, the thread degrades into back and forth theoretical numbers battles.
I'm not even saying you don't sometimes have good points because you do. The problem is that you seem to have this need to argue it no matter what until you just beat it into the ground.
I guess I just don't understand what you are trying to accomplish. Are you trying to convince people not to play? Are you trying to get all the parts of the game you personally dislike changed? Do you just really get off on the anonymity of internet arguing?
I'm not trying to fuel any kind of flame here, and I certainly don't want to now become yet another target of your attacks (although I'm pretty sure this is exactly what will happen) - I really am honestly trying to understand why you seem to do this over and over again.
Arcane strike while attacking, Arcane Armor training while casting. I never said use spell critical, that was annother poster. And if I need to use a quickened spell, I don't really mind 15% spell failure.So. Don't suppose you have a full attack line (or even character sheet) for that level 20 EK, or a little more detail beyond the AC? Seltyiel is useful only for yuks.
I'm a little :S about the spell failure. Getting spells off ~47% of the time against a CR 16 target's SR is pretty sad, although I suppose you'd avoid SR-applicable spells for anything you're quickening.
Its not quite done, and uses a falchion, so is of questionable ability depending on if you can take a hand off to cast spells (even if its not your bonded item, not sure what action it is to switch grip)
20 point buy
(lvl 20 enhanced)
str 15 (22)
dex 14 (20)
con 13 (20)
int 16 (14 + 2) (22)
wis 10 (14)
cha 10 (10)
Wizard 3
Fighter 1
Wizard 2
Eldrich Knight 10
Wizard 2
Fighter 1
Wizard 2
stat bonuses: 4-str, 8-con, 12-int, 16-int,
Feats:
W. Scribe Scroll
1. Eschew Materials
H. Combat Casting
3. Toughness
F. Arcane Armor training
5. Weapon Focus
W. Extend Spell
7. Arcane Strike
EK. Power Attack
9. Arcane Armor Mastery
11. Quicken Spell
EK. Weapon Spec
13. Greater Weapon Focus
15. Critical Focus
EK. Improved Critical
17. Staggering Critical
F. Greater Weapon Spec
19.
HP= 217
AC=36 (+4 shield spell) (10+ 11 armor, +5 nat, +5 dex, +5 ring)
F/R/W=20/15/16
lvl 20
BAB 16
Falchion - 2d4 +9 str +15 Power Attack +4 Arcane Strike +4 Weapon Spec +5 weapon
AVG=42 w/ PA, 27 w/o PA
Hit = 16+ 2 weapon Focus +6 str + 5 weapon -5 PA
Hit =PA = 24/19/14/9 no PA=29/24/19/14
15-20 crit with staggered condition, +4 to confirm
mithral breastplate +5 29100
Falchion +5 50000
ROP +5 50000
Cloak of resistance +5 25000
Amulet Nat Armor +5 50000
Belt of Physical Perfection +6 144000
Headband of Mental Prowess +4 int + wis 40000
total spent: 388100 of 880,000 (<50%)
edit: I didn't include special properties or things because I figure anyone can get them. As you can see, I'm way below my WBL, so I'm sure I can add Flaming Frosting whatever to the weapon. Also, a couple higher lvl feats I didn't know quite what to do with, like improved critical. Oh, and I cast as a 16th lvl caster.
edit2: corrected will save
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So what we need is a fully equiped fighter at level 20 and a fully equiped EK at that level.No we don't. I'm not comparing the EK to the fighter; I'm comparing it to the opposition, and asking how much pre-melee spellcasting is acceptable and against what foes.
Even if you are not, others are(I'm not going to bother seeing who these came from).
Will the level 20 fighter last more than one round against a CR16 black dragon? Will the EK die in one round? Who will have the better armor class?
Are you trying to say that any character regardless of race/class should be able to take the CR 16 dragon alone?
Then ask someone to post a fully equiped EK and ask that expereinced player how much buff he needs or how he would approach this challenge.
My answer is that killing the dragon is not necessary to overcome the encounter and thus "defeat" the dragon.
I think a 20th level eldritch knight would likely have a +5 sword of defending which once he entered melee he could bump up that poor armor class that you gave as an example of an EK.
What else should a 20th level EK have in order to face the opposition?
Defending is a poor choice for the EK because he needs the bonus to hit.
What else should a 20th level EK have in order to face the opposition?
Spells. He'd be buffed with mirror image (to soak attacks), shield (to help that appalling AC), stoneskin for DR 10/adamantine, any and all stat boosters ... yes, he's going to be hard to find amid the images and harder to hit even if you do, and tough to hurt form the DR (against a multi-hitter like a dragon that's invaluable, reducing every blow by 10 points can save you around 30-50 hit points per round).
Are you trying to say that any character regardless of race/class should be able to take the CR 16 dragon alone?
Then ask someone to post a fully equiped EK and ask that expereinced player how much buff he needs or how he would approach this challenge.
My answer is that killing the dragon is not necessary to overcome the encounter and thus "defeat" the dragon.
The whole premise here is, IS the EK good enough at melee combat.
The problem: A party is facing several CR 16 monsters (in this case ancient dragons) that is a CR 20 encounter, which is appropriate for a level 20 party. Mr Level 20 EK is part of that party. Part members 1-3 are dealing with the other 3 dragons, leaving EK to manage the last one. He wishes to enter melee combat with the dragon. Remember we are trying to prove that there is a way to make an EK where he is NOT better off casting spells and WANTS to get into combat. So yes, you dont have to kill the dragon, you could roleplay it, you could charm it, or any of a 100 other plans, but here and now, MR EK is fighting the dragon. So, does he live, does he die?
Arcane strike while attacking, Arcane Armor training while casting. I never said use spell critical, that was annother poster. And if I need to use a quickened spell, I don't really mind 15% spell failure.So. Don't suppose you have a full attack line (or even character sheet) for that level 20 EK, or a little more detail beyond the AC? Seltyiel is useful only for yuks.
I'm a little :S about the spell failure. Getting spells off ~47% of the time against a CR 16 target's SR is pretty sad, although I suppose you'd avoid SR-applicable spells for anything you're quickening.
Its not quite done, and uses a falchion, so is of questionable ability depending on if you can take a hand off to cast spells (even if its not your bonded item, not sure what action it is to switch grip)
** spoiler omitted **...
Just out of curiosity anyone care to step out of hypotheticals?
Caineach, would you be interested in facing down the dragon in a PbP after you have finished him? I found that actually trying it out really helped when i was discussing the summoner some time back. Any interest?
Try it out a couple times see what happens? Could at least put the argument to rest to a degree.
Rock the eff out. So, with that build, when is he likely to enter melee, with what buffs, and how long should he have to survive? What is be buying for his four caster levels? Jandrem or Freddy suggested finishing foes off; would that be applicable to that build, and if you, could you offer a little more detail on how and when?
I am trying to falsify this statement: "It is useful for the EK to enter melee under certain circumstances which are a challenge." It's impossible to prove false, since, like someone said, infinite number of possible circumstances. It's possible to prove true, however, since you only need one set of possible circumstances. Plus, the more possible circumstances people can come up with that falsify the statement, the OP gets more ideas on when and why and how to be an EK, and it's more possible to discuss in more specific terms the tradeoffs between an EK and wizard.
Mmm, scientific method.
The EK gets some of the wizards great avoidance buffs. Mirror Image, Displacement, Blurr, Shield. IMO, his low level slots should be filled with these, and at higher levels he may get more than 1 combat with them. Add a couple manueverability spells like dimmension door and flight to round out the lower levels. For damage, Enlarge Person and Haste are a great additions. Energy protection is also a nice thing to have arround. IMO, lvl 1-3 spells are your bread and butter.
Mid level slots can be a more typical wizard, but there are some decent buffs up here. Stoneskin is nice. Walls are a good thing. Avoid things that allow saves, your int is poor because you spent points in str and con. You get to rock some polymorph. Greater Heroism will give +4 morale boosts. A couple dirrect damage AoEs are not wasted here. Transformation is an amusing spell, but heed Admiral Ackbar.
High level spells: I don't really have much to say for these, but its similar to all casters. I recomend not using these for buffs, but things like summoned monsters, prismatic wall, and things that will take enemies out of the combat entirely.
MiB, I understand your stance from other threads that you feel the wizard dominates the game at high levels because of his versatility with game breaking abilities. I think most people who play EK do not want to use those abilities. They want to instead use the spells that often considered sub-par, like dirrect damage, and be in the melee. I think the Eldrich knight allows for this. The spells allow for enough survivability and damage that he is not bad off, while he can fall back on some higher level, typical, break the GMs game spells.
As I have said before, I think the high lvl EK is fine. The problem is lvl 1-6 he is a mage and 7-9 he is playing catch up with the bard. After that though, he is a good class. Too bad most campaigns start low and end mid lvl
No, I'm saying that to be a melee character, it's necessary to survive in melee for some amount of time against level-appropriate foes. Seltyiel is not a melee character, since he can't survive in melee against level-appropriate foes.
What about a CR16 Stone Giant Elder, with sufficient class levels in Sorceror (Earth Elemental Bloodline) to make up the CR. That is effectively likely to be the Iconic EK's equal, roughly. Would that Stone Giant sorceror rip him apart with magic *and* melee at the correct CR, or would the iconic hold his own? Anybody feel like building out the math for this?
Seltyiel is not a melee character, since he can't survive in melee against level-appropriate foes.
Emphasis mine.
Of course he can't, since he doesn't have level-appropriate gear.
What about a CR16 Stone Giant Elder, with sufficient class levels in Sorceror (Earth Elemental Bloodline) to make up the CR. That is effectively likely to be the Iconic EK's equal, roughly. Would that sorceror rip him apart with magic at the correct CR, or would the iconic hold his own? Anybody feel like building out the math for this?
No, I'm saying that to be a melee character, it's necessary to survive in melee for some amount of time against level-appropriate foes. Seltyiel is not a melee character, since he can't survive in melee against level-appropriate foes.
That is like asking if the EK stands up to an EK. It doesnt represent an iconic CR 16 monster.
That is like asking if the EK stands up to an EK. It doesnt represent an iconic CR 16 monster.What about a CR16 Stone Giant Elder, with sufficient class levels in Sorceror (Earth Elemental Bloodline) to make up the CR. That is effectively likely to be the Iconic EK's equal, roughly. Would that sorceror rip him apart with magic at the correct CR, or would the iconic hold his own? Anybody feel like building out the math for this?
No, I'm saying that to be a melee character, it's necessary to survive in melee for some amount of time against level-appropriate foes. Seltyiel is not a melee character, since he can't survive in melee against level-appropriate foes.
Conceeded, but the top end of CR monsters, from CR10ish up, reads mostly as Caster, Dragon, Giant, linnorm, neothelid, Caster, Outsider, Outsider, Outsider, ad nauseum. Finding something at CR16 that isn't an outsider or a dragon is hard, without tacking class levels, or otherwise advancing, lower CR monsters. I think the Stone Giant Sorceror is fair, as it would be mixed focus, like the EK.
The EK gets some of the wizards great avoidance buffs. Mirror Image, Displacement, Blurr, Shield. IMO, his low level slots should be filled with these, and at higher levels he may get more than 1 combat with them. Add a couple manueverability spells like dimmension door and flight to round out the lower levels. For damage, Enlarge Person and Haste are a great additions. Energy protection is also a nice thing to have arround. IMO, lvl 1-3 spells are your bread and butter....wait. Why is he casting these on himself? Unless it's Mirror Image or Shield, almost all of the buffs you're talking about are better cast on another class, since they do more damage and are inherently tougher. None of these are spells he can only cast on himself, and he's going to get the least benefit from them if only because he needs to spend time out of melee casting the buffs in the first place. Even a rogue or cleric is going to have a higher to-hit than this guy; 16 BAB doesn't offset the fact that he's splitting his stats four ways.
Standing back and casting doesn't necessarily have to mean casting spells on enemies.
He CAN cast spells on himself and its not wasted. Not everyone complains about the war cleric self buffing and entering melee. Personally, I think the wizards's self-only buffs spells are better than the cleric's (I know I will catch a lot of flack for that). I agree with you that its not always the best options, and having 2 seprate characters, 1 buffing and 1 fighting, is usually better. That doesn't make it more fun, or always the optimal solution. Group buffs, like Haste, are also important.
I also think 1 of the tricks to an EK is that he is playing the mage the first couple rounds of combat, and then steps in for the mop up and conserves resources. He isn't the primary damage dealer, and leaves that job to the fighter types, who he can also buff. The utility in this regard is very dependant on play style. I have noticed that combats in my group routinely last 2-3 times longer than the average, so meleeis often a useful solution.
Personally, I think the wizards's self-only buffs spells are better than the cleric's (I know I will catch a lot of flack for that).
*hands Caineach a catcher's mit and begins a game of flack toss*
The whole premise here is, IS the EK good enough at melee combat.
The problem: A party is facing several CR 16 monsters (in this case ancient dragons) that is a CR 20 encounter, which is appropriate for a level 20 party. Mr Level 20 EK is part of that party. Part members 1-3 are dealing with the other 3 dragons, leaving EK to manage the last one. He wishes to enter melee combat with the dragon. Remember we are trying to prove that there is a way to make an EK where he is NOT better off casting spells and WANTS to get into combat. So yes, you dont have to kill the dragon, you could roleplay it, you could charm it, or any of a 100 other plans, but here and now, MR EK is fighting the dragon. So, does he live, does he die?
If he buffs himself up, he can live and win. he has spells to cast, so he'll cast them - he'd be an idiot not to.
Let me use an example from a different class that draws parallels - the psychic warrior. We'll use a 3.5 PW, as the Pathfinder one isn't released yet. The PW is one of the best balanced 3.5 classes according to most critics, and is the archetypal 'gish' in that respect.
The PW has 3/4 BAB and d8 hit dice. In this respect he is well behind the fighter and even the EK in both hit dice and attack bonus. He has better armour though. Can he beat the dragon? Hell yes - because he has 20 powers to use to attack, defend, move and most importantly, buff. Does the fact that he is buffing and using powers mean he isn't engaging in melee? Of course not, he is a psychic warrior, using his powers to help in the fight is the whole point of having them.
In the same way, the EK should be using his spells to boost himself in the fight. That's the whole point. Without his spells, he can't match up to a fighter of equal level. Without his combat ability he cannot match up to a wizard of equal level. Using both together is what he does. Like the psychic warrior he can play a second-fiddle fighter without his spells, with the magic enhancements he can outshine the fighter for a short period if he has to.
CR-appropriate, of course. And no, it can't. My contention is that an EK can't either, and I'm seeking counterexamples. I'm ignoring a lot of a lot of posts because there's just too much to carry on five different conversations with five different people, so I'm trying to keep it narrow. Is there something super important I missed, or an answer I missed? Being snide isn't helpful, but "Why haven't you addressed this?" is.
Can a straight wizard reliably enter melee with anything?EDIT: CR appropriate of course. Oh yes it can… another wizard!
EDIT again: And as usual, you ignore most of any given poster's post.
The fact that several buff spells have a duration of 1 min/level or longer (with easy access to the options of wands, scrolls, staves, wondrous items, and the Extend Spell feat, helping to make resource management trivial at the upper levels) is quite important to the EK's survivability in melee.
As to "addressing this (black dragon)":
for less than 400,000gp, and one buff spell (greater magic weapon) the EK can get +22 to hit vs. AC 38, and can get an AC of 37 vs. AB +32 himself as a base to start with. This is before you take into account feats, Dex bonus, Str bonus, misc. magic items and such. Displacement, and Haste (2 round/lvl spells) alone give a significant advantage to the EK in melee vs. said black dragon. Add more rnd/lvl spells to taste if you like. Remember several buff spells are typically "already on" at this level. Stoneskin and Resist energy (acid) alone (2 10min/lvl spells) make a mockery out of its melee damage power vs. the EK. When you throw a 50% miss chance on top of that… I don't see the EK getting hit much.
I can easily see an EK meleeing against this creature and having a decent chance to not only survive, but come out on top.
And the list of variables grows longer... and longer... and longer...Can someone at Paizo give Seltiyel some AC? Anybody got a ring or anything? PC level appropriate wealth plz? Somebody get this guy a helmet! He's got black dragons trying to eat him!
I did notice he doesn't have much AC-boosting gear.
OTOH, he does have a higher initiative than the dragon and a scroll of Limited Wish, so if we're assuming everyone rolls 10 (as I notice most discussions that bring in the numbers do) then he goes first and then just wishes either himself or the dragons away.
Of course this is intended in smurfily good humor. :)
I think the Stone Giant Sorceror is fair, as it would be mixed focus, like the EK.....isn't a dragon mixed-focus?
Maybe white and blacks could theoretically count, but most dragons don't count, as they are too good at both focuses. White and Black dragons tend to be less capable casters, and most ancient dragons don't count, because they are dragons.
Perhaps an Efreeti Wizard, or other advanced lower level outsider could work, as well, like a Rakshasa. Mostly, this is to play devil's advocate, pun intended. Mostly, because most higher CR monsters are set pieces, and what constitutes high level opposition in games I have played are not stacks of CR16 critters, but rather stacks of lower CR critters advanced to CR16.
Black dragon says
"I havn't smurf et yet"
Conceeded, but the top end of CR monsters, from CR10ish up, reads mostly as Caster, Dragon, Giant, linnorm, neothelid, Caster, Outsider, Outsider, Outsider, ad nauseum. Finding something at CR16 that isn't an outsider or a dragon is hard, without tacking class levels, or otherwise advancing, lower CR monsters. I think the Stone Giant Sorceror is fair, as it would be mixed focus, like the EK.
Fair and appropriate are not the same thing. We are trying to determine if the mixed focus of the EK is too much of a handicap. Putting it up against another mixed focus class does not prove or disprove that, its not in the argument. Give the stone giant fighter or barbarian levels and we can talk, but making the EK face something with the exact same problem it has doesnt prove anything.
In the same way, the EK should be using his spells to boost himself in the fight. That's the whole point. Without his spells, he can't match up to a fighter of equal level. Without his combat ability he cannot match up to a wizard of equal level. Using both together is what he does. Like the psychic warrior he can play a second-fiddle fighter without his spells, with the magic enhancements he can...
I think you may be right and i'd like to look at it. How about this, make an EK equip him, and give him say, 2 long duration (minute/level or higher) and 1 short duration buff, and we will see how he compares that seem fair?
Personally, I think the wizards's self-only buffs spells are better than the cleric's (I know I will catch a lot of flack for that).Well, you could at least justify it. As for the rest, time for work, so later.
Cleric self only buffs:
Divine FavorDivine Power
Righteous Might
Wizard self only buffs
shield
mirror image
Blink
Fire Shield
Interposing Hand
Beast Shapes
Elemental Bodies
Plant Shapes
Form spells
Transformation (its a trap)
Spell turning
Iron Body
Granted the 3 the Cleric gets are really good, but the wizard gets some nice ones, and more of them.
Fair and appropriate are not the same thing. We are trying to determine if the mixed focus of the EK is too much of a handicap. Putting it up against another mixed focus class does not prove or disprove that, its not in the argument. Give the stone giant fighter or barbarian levels and we can talk, but making the EK face something with the exact same problem it has doesnt prove anything.
Part of the issue is that for level appropriate melee encounters, the EKs response should be to cast at it until it isn't a problem anymore like any other caster or partial caster would do. I think it is absolutely appropriate to discuss monsters for which that would not be the appropriate response, where the ability to enter into melee and cast partially would be an advantage. This isn't a fallacy because I am not picking a bog standard Melee challenge, because it has been thrown out that a bog standard Melee challenge is not something an EK would want to actually melee.
Man in Black, as one optimizer to another, could you kindly stop making this stupid arguments in every thread you post on? You're making everyone else who likes the mechanical aspect of the game look bad.
You aren't solving anything. You're just jumping in for a chance at some fine whine.
Hell, your entire post here seems to be "Guys look, this iconic isn't that well made! Let's all stop and laugh and make fun of it and hate it forever!"
Seriously. Cut it out.
Part of the issue is that for level appropriate melee encounters, the EKs response should be to cast at it until it isn't a problem anymore like any other caster or partial caster would do. I think it is absolutely appropriate to discuss monsters for which that would not be the appropriate response, where the ability to enter into melee and cast partially would be an advantage. This isn't a fallacy because I am not picking a bog standard Melee challenge, because it has been thrown out that a bog standard Melee challenge is not something an EK would want to actually melee.
Fair and appropriate are not the same thing. We are trying to determine if the mixed focus of the EK is too much of a handicap. Putting it up against another mixed focus class does not prove or disprove that, its not in the argument. Give the stone giant fighter or barbarian levels and we can talk, but making the EK face something with the exact same problem it has doesnt prove anything.
But if a EK does not want to get into a melee fight with a melee based opponent, then it is not 'capable in melee combat'. You are suggesting we deliberately weaken an opponent so the EK can take it on. If you then say the EK is just fine against a deliberately weakened opponent you are indeed proposing we base our results on a fallacy.
If you want to say the EK is competant in combat, he has to want to get into combat with things that are good in combat, otherwise you are proving MIB's original point, that the EK is better off staying back and casting spells which makes the class pointless. What we are currently discussing, is that a properly built, properly equiped and buffed EK is able to stand toe to toe with an enemy that he is likely to face at level 20. If you or your dm use half baked monsters that dont work well, great, but most people use enemies that are actually good at what they do, and dont add caster levels to brute monsters. If you want to add class levels to a stone giant that work with what it has, fine, we can look at that, but adding caster levels to it proves absolutely nothing except the fighter/mage mix REALLY doesnt work without a prestige class for it.
Man in Black, as one optimizer to another, could you kindly stop making this stupid arguments in every thread you post on? You're making everyone else who likes the mechanical aspect of the game look bad.
You aren't solving anything. You're just jumping in for a chance at some fine whine.
Hell, your entire post here seems to be "Guys look, this iconic isn't that well made! Let's all stop and laugh and make fun of it and hate it forever!"
Seriously. Cut it out.
Man in Black serves a purpose to be honest. He is an extreme to balance out the other side in the extreme 'only roleplay and fluff matters' crowd. It is useful to have someone point out the flaws that exist. Man in black's group seems to be very competant at finding them. It may not change the rules, but being aware of those flaws is useful to players and dms so we can set our expectations and make the appropriate compensations.
But if a EK does not want to get into a melee fight with a melee based opponent, then it is not 'capable in melee combat'. You are suggesting we deliberately weaken an opponent so the EK can take it on. If you then say the EK is just fine against a deliberately weakened opponent you are indeed proposing we base our results on a fallacy.If you want to say the EK is competant in combat, he has to want to get into combat with things that are good in combat, otherwise you are proving MIB's original point, that the EK is better off staying back and casting spells which makes the class pointless. What we are currently discussing, is that a properly built, properly equiped and buffed EK is able to stand toe to toe with an enemy that he is likely to face at level 20. If you or your dm use half baked monsters that dont work well, great, but most people use enemies that are actually good at what they do, and dont add caster levels to brute monsters. If you want to add class levels to a stone giant that work with what it has, fine, we can look at that, but adding caster levels to it proves absolutely nothing except the fighter/mage mix REALLY doesnt work without a prestige class for it.
The Stone Giant Elder with Sorceror levels is actually recommended in the SRD as an advancement option for a Stone Giant Elder. That is not something half baked, that's in the Bestiary as an option, despite the fact that the Stone Giant has no inherent Cha bonus. I think it fair to look at something like a lower CR Outsider advanced, something that has some competence in casting or spell like abilities, and some competence in melee. And yes, I consider Dragons outliers, as they are frequently at the top end of the bell curve, in terms of melee, due to number of attacks, and as servicable casters. I agree that if the EK is meleeing a CR14 or so plus Melee challenge, she is likely to be rendered into a negative hp paste pretty quickly, even with mirror image, stoneskin or any other Wizard buffs.
In the same way, the EK should be using his spells to boost himself in the fight. That's the whole point. Without his spells, he can't match up to a fighter of equal level. Without his combat ability he cannot match up to a wizard of equal level. Using both together is what he does. Like the psychic warrior he can play a second-fiddle fighter without his spells, with the magic enhancements he can...I think you may be right and i'd like to look at it. How about this, make an EK equip him, and give him say, 2 long duration (minute/level or higher) and 1 short duration buff, and we will see how he compares that seem fair?
Not a bad idea, but it'll take me time to stat one out, if you can bear with me. I'm not a great optimizer, but I'm sure I can make something that'll kick out a fair bit of damage. I'll also stat a psychic warrior as a comparison, I think the difference in performance will be enlightening.
Man in Black serves a purpose to be honest. He is an extreme to balance out the other side in the extreme 'only roleplay and fluff matters' crowd. It is useful to have someone point out the flaws that exist. Man in black's group seems to be very competant at finding them. It may not change the rules, but being aware of those flaws is useful to players and dms so we can set our expectations and make the appropriate compensations.Man in Black, as one optimizer to another, could you kindly stop making this stupid arguments in every thread you post on? You're making everyone else who likes the mechanical aspect of the game look bad.
You aren't solving anything. You're just jumping in for a chance at some fine whine.
Hell, your entire post here seems to be "Guys look, this iconic isn't that well made! Let's all stop and laugh and make fun of it and hate it forever!"
Seriously. Cut it out.
I'm fine with finding flaws.
My issue with Man in Black is his attitude and his habit of doing nothing but saying things suck.
Again, his entire role in this thread seemed to be more or less based on "hah hah look at this iconic and how bad it is amirite guys?" That's not constructive.
I think that, in general, we'll all be better served without making any of this personal. If you feel like someone is attacking you, flag the post, but I wouldn't post anything that could even possibly be considered inflammatory. We're all fans, and should display a sense of community here.
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I'm fine with finding flaws.My issue with Man in Black is his attitude and his habit of doing nothing but saying things suck.
Again, his entire role in this thread seemed to be more or less based on "hah hah look at this iconic and how bad it is amirite guys?" That's not constructive.
And what do you expect MiB to exactly DO about it. It´s not like he can change the rules that are printed in the books...or even make official clarifications.
MIB, you asked about another level appropriate encounter where the EK would want to melee and be able to do.
A party fighting 4 16th level mages, all with suitable buff spells up and running (mirror image, displacement, shield, mage armor, etc..).
The EK moves next to the mages (taking any AoOs from their minions, if any), to have as many as possible in a 10' radius of himself. He casts Wall of Stone around them and himself, and to finish it off, he uses his free action to activate his contingency spell (Antimagic field).
The EK is now trapped with the mages in an area where magic does not work, so the mages are likely down to AC 13 (assuming dex 15), while the EK probably has chainmail, a buckler and his dex for AC 20.
The EK has +16/+11/+6/+1 (this is straight BAB without weapons focus etc..), while the mages have +10/+5.
I suspect that the EK will be able to take out the mages quite easily.
Does this meet the requirement for a level appropriate encounter where the EK chooses to melee and not only survives more than one round, but is likely to be successful?
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As to "addressing this (black dragon)":
for less than 400,000gp, and one buff spell (greater magic weapon) the EK can get +22 to hit vs. AC 38, and can get an AC of 37 vs. AB +32 himself as a base to start with. This is before you take into account feats, Dex bonus, Str bonus, misc. magic items and such. Displacement, and Haste (2 round/lvl spells) alone give a significant advantage to the EK in melee vs. said black dragon. Add more rnd/lvl spells to taste if you like. Remember several buff spells are typically "already on" at this level. Stoneskin and Resist energy (acid) alone (2 10min/lvl spells) make a mockery out of its melee damage power vs. the EK. When you throw a 50% miss chance on top of that… I don't see the EK getting hit much.I can easily see an EK meleeing against this creature and having a decent chance to not only survive, but come out on top.
The +22 is wrong. Assuming your going for the 16 bab/17 CL build, this is only +20 with GMW. With the aweful 17 BAB/14 CL, your also STILL at +20. If you went with a BAB 17/CL 15 build and added the orange ioun stone, you would get +21. No practiced spell caster...remember?
As for spells that have minute duration being ¨already on¨...yeah if your DM rolls that way...sure...whatever. But the only spells that are considered always on are the hour durations ones...and even then, only when your high enough level...even then encounters while resting can negate that. 10 min/level gives you 360 minutes at level 20 if your doing the caster heavy build and using a 30k item and extending the spell. 170 otherwise. You know, most dungeons take more time then that to explore. With 1 min/level spells, yeah even more unlikely...and this is at level 20 folks...last I checked, playing level 20 characters is a rather small part of the game. At level 13, before you can afford to waste 30k for 1 CL and have meta rods, your looking at a measly 110 minutes. And even then, your looking at small portions of the game played. At the low end of the sweet spot, it isn´t even feasible to be a gish.