(lol)
You're dungeonmaster, and you've got a group of primers bopping around Ysgard.
One of them says, "godsdammit." what should you do?
Looks like most Odin is NOT lawful and likely neutral towards law/chaos. So the next question is whether he is neutral good or true neutral.
I'm leaning toward neutral good.
Grendel was a Troll and was killed by a Hero :) Grendels mother was killed by same hero Beauwulf
The original poem doesn't really describe what Grendel looked like.
In some interpretations, Grendel is thought of as a resembling a Troll, Ogre, or Giant. Later Christian writers and painters imagined he would be a deformed humanoid due to considering him a cursed descendent of Cain.
The original poem describes Grendel as having teeth, claws, spikes, and scales which sounds more dragon-like.
Teath, claws, spikes and scales sounds a lot like troll in many interperatations :) though Troll was what we called Neanderthall :)
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Teath, claws, spikes and scales sounds a lot like troll in many interperatations :) though Troll was what we called Neanderthall :)
There is no evidence that trolls are skewed oral histories of dealing with Neanderthals. It is human nature to demonize one's enemies, especially long after the fact. That is assuming that the story wasn't just made up completely.
Grendel is obviously not a dragon, since Beowulf later fights a dragon. I personally prefer John Gardner's novel Grendel to the epic poem.
I like John Gardner's story too, but it's fantasy fiction, not mythology. The word "dragon" used to have a very loose definition for all kinds of monsters and devils. The French series "dragon hunters" calls monsters of all shapes and sizes "dragons".
The poem describes Grendel plucking up men with his claws and swallowing them whole, so in PFRPG he would definitely be Huge size or bigger--not a troll but possibly a giant, dragon, or other monster big enough of swallowing Medium-sized creatures.
There has been debate about what Grendel and his mother were meant to look like for centuries. I'm interesting in hearing other opinions on it.
Do you think Grendel should be a dragon? If not, what would be better and why?
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Grendle shouldnt be a Dragon, as Beowulf kills Grendle and Later goes out and Kills a Dragon, and a distinction is made between the two. Grendle works best as a Troll as far as modern fantasy goes.
As far as Neanderthals go. Lots of Neanderthals are found in northern Europe. The Scandinavians credit the last killing off of them at about the time of the Vikings, and there are theories that small pockets of them survived up untill that time. And that many of our stories are about them.
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OK so if Dragon is Ambiguous, and Troll dosnt work, even though those are the Fan Faves... How Bout Tarrasque, :) That seems to fit :)
Ya I am very familliar with the Original Beaowulf and the Poetic Eddas, and the Havamal, and the Kalavela witch is Finnish :) Being a good Sweedish German Boy who is Asatru at heart...
Here is one of my sourses - paleontologist Björn Kurtén has entertained and expanded this theory to determine that trolls are a distant memory of an encounter with Neanderthals :)
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But this is neither here nor there, most see Grendle as trollish, and the other as dragonish. So I think that Tarrasque would fit nicely as its lest traditionally dragonish and fits the scaly, spiky, able to eat a man whole :) Then again, you could go Dragon Turtle, or Giant Turtle :)
As far as Neanderthals go. Lots of Neanderthals are found in northern Europe. The Scandinavians credit the last killing off of them at about the time of the Vikings, and there are theories that small pockets of them survived up untill that time. And that many of our stories are about them.
Not sure when and where you went to school - but the Swedes certainly don't credit the last killing off them to the Vikings - we put the death of the last neanderthal at about the end of the last (latest) ice age. You know, like pretty much any serious archaelogists worth their degree does.
And as for stories about them... Only ones I've heard were made up by Jean M Auel, and they were dreadful.
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Er, the Viking/Neanderthal thing comes from the Michael Crichton book Eaters of the Dead, which was made into the movie 13th Warrior.
There is some recent evidence that Neanderthals stuck around a lot longer than previously suspected, but the idea they stuck around until Medieval times is fiction.
Actually there are a lot more anthropologists suggesting that our Norse mythology stems from our early ancestors and Neanderthal interaction, our stories being the Norse Myths. And while Neanderthals surviving to more modern times is still myth, it is becomming a valid hypothisys that is being researched.
There is no evidence that trolls are skewed oral histories of dealing with Neanderthals.
You're saying that Larry Niven's story "What Good is a Glass Dagger?" is a work of fiction? Preposterous!
;-)
Tyr uses a sword. Hence his flaming sword in legend. You could actually swap Tyr and Baldur and it should be fairly accurate.
Done.
Well this was nice to see. I've been wanting to get a Norse campaign started...then again I have far too many ideas for types of campaigns I want to do.
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And while Neanderthals surviving to more modern times is still myth, it is becomming a valid hypothisys that is being researched.
[tangent] The comic 'Kin' explores the premise that they (or their descendents) still survive to this day. It's kinda cool. [/tangent]
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I have a section showing how each class can fit into a Norse campaign.
It's still not finished, but ran into a wall with one particular class:
Inquisitor.
There just wasn't any such concept in Norse society or mythology that I can find, so its the only class with no analog.
Anybody have any ideas?
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How bout when the damn catholic priests came up and started mucking about...
The problem with that would be that pretty much all the stories of the early Christian priests (Catholic from the south and west, Orthodox from the east in the very late part of the period) are either about how they got themselves killed by the horrid heathens, or how they went up to the barbaric northmen, preached a bit - and then got themselves back home real quick like.
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I forget which of the nordic nations it was, but for one of them didn't one of the kings use catholicism to consolidate his rule?
I want to avoid Christianity in the campaign if I can.
For right now, I made the Norse equivalent of Inquisitor an adventuring "lovisegemann" or "law-reader man". This was an official who would read the law at trial things. In reality, his responsibilities ended there, but in a fantasy world, they can be vigilantes bringing law to the outlaws!
Yes, I know its a stretch, but its only think I came up with so far.
Ya I dont remember offhand, but... I was thinking not using Christians per se but a foriegn religion imposing themselves :)
And thinking on the Grendle thing, going back through the sourses... and thinking cryptozoology and also poetic lysence of Bards and Outhors... The Northern Peoples would have seen the Dragon in the story as a Serpent of sorts, and the Kelts would have seen it as a winged serpent of sorts due to their wiews on things, so I think "Dragon" fits there... But later peoples take Grendle as Troll, and even modern us things of him as Neanderthal and whatnot... but as you say, big enought to eat a man whole, and has spikes... and yet the northern men, Danes perhaps, and Kelts of the Isles didnt Serpentize it... So, what would it be... it's/his mother lived at the bottom of a lake in a cave. I am thinking Lake Monster. A Nessie of sorts. It could have been a Plesieasaur and the spikes got added to the telling untill someone finally wrote it down, or maybe the author added that... or this hold over had spikes in whitch maybe it was some kind of spiky dinasaur hold over. Or even a giant snapping turtle. They have turtles in the Isles. Why at that time not some hole overs :)
I have never Read Niven or John Gardner, they are probably very good. Most of the story I have heard are from relatives from Germany, Danmark, Sweden, Norway and Finlund, who say the Trolls were the Neanderthals :) There is lots of places in Europe and Asia where wild men have been sighted and believed in and the locals have thaught them to be hold overs of Neanderthals. Even though Modern Science does not reccognize this. Americans are still looking at the bigfoot, even though they find hair samples that dont match any known animal or human. Yet they are natural hair. But they cant belong to a big foot :) People are still discovering things today :) But this arguement was very off topic. ;)
I forget which of the nordic nations it was, but for one of them didn't one of the kings use catholicism to consolidate his rule?
I'm thinking you're thinking of Norway. But that goes for basically all the nordic kingdoms. While there were kings of areas that roughly correspond to the present-day nations, they were by no means united until the christian concept of kingship arrived alongside the catholic church (and if you ask some Swedish historians, Sweden may have had kings since the 10th century AD, but it wasn't consolidated as a nation per se until the efforts of Birger Jarl during the 13th century.
I'm doing write-ups on the gods next. Does anybody find full character stats for gods helpful?
In the book, Fantastic People, he attributes all creatures to being decended from elementals. In any case, godlike beings degenerated into beastlike monsters that the author called dragons.
I think Grendal and his mother had traits of giants, dragons, and possibly shapeshifters.
He isn't lawful, not in a million years. Next thing people will say is that Zeus is lawful too... geez.
Zeus was Lawful. ;p There is a very extensive body of evidence regarding the way he was actually worshiped by his actual worshipers (as opposed to poets who made up stories) and a lot of people are surprised to hear that the way he was worshiped was as pretty much the patron of Order and defender of laws from the cosmic right down to the familial level.
Odin, however, I think was TN (and albeit there is much less evidence about actual religious practices, leaving only the poets). He can be helpful, he can be treacherous and cruel. He favors some heroes but always eventually withdraws his favor and gets them killed, because he's concerned with recruiting them for Valhalla, an ultimately self-serving goal, not with seeing them successful for their own sake.
Of course every persons interpretation of the gods is probably varying since there is so much directly contradictory material to choose from.
The poem describes Grendel plucking up men with his claws and swallowing them whole, so in PFRPG he would definitely be Huge size or bigger--not a troll but possibly a giant, dragon, or other monster big enough of swallowing Medium-sized creatures.
Growing in size during a rage is, IIRC, a feature of some berserkers in general in Norse stories, and one that fits Grendel reasonably well. I think the poem (at least in some English translation I've read, Donaldson's) uses the phrase, "swollen with rage" to describe Grendel directly. I don't know how it is in the Anglo-Saxon, of course.
If you're looking for some good books that use the Norse pantheon, then my two favorites are Sleipnir, by Linda Evans, which is best described as "Mack Bolan storms Valhalla in order to kill Odin" and Pyramid Power, by Eric Flint and David Freer, where an alien probe starts re-empowering the Norse gods in order to use them to help conquer the Earth.
Of the two, Pyramid Power is the better read. It takes a lighter, more "Hercules: the Legendary Journeys" tone to the characterization of the gods, while Sleipnir is darker in tone and plays them pretty straight.
It looks like this is growing beyond just deities and turning into a Pathfinder campaign guide.
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For right now, I made the Norse equivalent of Inquisitor an adventuring "lovisegemann" or "law-reader man". This was an official who would read the law at trial things. In reality, his responsibilities ended there, but in a fantasy world, they can be vigilantes bringing law to the outlaws!
Some sort of travelling 'witch-hunter' or 'monster killing specialist' might work best using the Inquisitor as a base class. Really, the 'Inquisitor' is more of a Van Helsing than an actual burner-of-heretics / maintainer-of-doctrinal-purity, so calling him a Troll-Hunter or Witch-Finder would work.
(Naturally, some 'witches' would be acceptable, such as the Seithr wise-woman or the rune-priest or the godi, with the sort of 'witch' that the Inquisitor would hunt being evil sorcerers or monstrous hags or defilers of burial mounds.)
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I'm doing write-ups on the gods next. Does anybody find full character stats for gods helpful?
I'm not really a fan of giving gods stats. But if you were to do this, I think it would be silly to do this before Paizo puts out a supplement for levels beyond 20. You'd have to be really dumb to do that.
*looks at 3.0 Deities & Demigods*
Yup....silly.
Stats would be awesome :)
For right now, I made the Norse equivalent of Inquisitor an adventuring "lovisegemann" or "law-reader man". This was an official who would read the law at trial things. In reality, his responsibilities ended there, but in a fantasy world, they can be vigilantes bringing law to the outlaws!Some sort of travelling 'witch-hunter' or 'monster killing specialist' might work best using the Inquisitor as a base class. Really, the 'Inquisitor' is more of a Van Helsing than an actual burner-of-heretics / maintainer-of-doctrinal-purity, so calling him a Troll-Hunter or Witch-Finder would work.
(Naturally, some 'witches' would be acceptable, such as the Seithr wise-woman or the rune-priest or the godi, with the sort of 'witch' that the Inquisitor would hunt being evil sorcerers or monstrous hags or defilers of burial mounds.)
Sounds reasonable. Do you have a Norse name for it?
The next class to find an equivalent for will be magus. Finding something like a battle-mage will be hard.
Would be nice if when you finish it, you can convert it to a PDF file or something. Something down loadable. :)
I would need a free place to host it then.
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awwww poor fenris.. chaotic evil? he was challenged to a fair contest of strength and cheated and betrayed by his friend. I'd want to get loose and rip odin's head off too.
Chaotic neutral.
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I find this very interesting. I've been using Norse mythology in my own games as well, so I have some thoughts. If you like them, feel free to use them, otherwise feel free to ignore them and/or consider me a crank who doesn't know what he is talking about.
Most of these ideas either have been used for my Audor campaign which was based on Norse mythology and run under the 3.5 rules, or are part of an "Atlantis" idea I've been working on in which the Norse myths are part of the world in which Atlantis exists.
It seems I have a lot of thoughts, so I'll break it up into multiple posts for easier reading
Worlds
For an "Atlantis" project, I thought about tying the Norse realms to the planets. I don't mean that Asgard is literally on Mars, but that the realm of Asgard is connected to Mars in some cosmic sense. The idea I had was that Ygdrasl existed in an alternate plane of existence and where Asgard was via the branches of Asgard corresponded to where Mars is in our own cosmos.
The associations I made were as follows:
Muspelheim is associated with Mercury
Vanaheim is associated with Venus
Midgard is associated with Earth (of course)
Nidavellir could be associated with the Moon*
Asgard is associated with Mars
Alfheim is associated with Ceres
Jotunheim is associated with Jupiter
Svartalfheim could be associated with Saturn*
Utgard is associated with Uranus
Niflheim is associated with Pluto**
* I always considered Nidavellir and Svartalfheim as parts of the Earth -- Svartalfheim being in Africa and Nidavellir being under the earth. If you wanted to, I suppose these could be Saturn and the Moon, respectively.
** Pluto is not considered a planet by a vote of a group of astronomers, but for this project I've considered Pluto as the first-seen of the Kuiper belt objects, and thus as a fitting analog to Niflheim. Ceres is also not a planet either, but is the largest object in a space where a planet is expected to be, so represents the major analog of Alfheim. I considered that the Atlanteans are aware of these astronomical objects and more because they were able to detect them using their magic.
Classes
Barbarians
While not for a Nordic culture, I have been toying with an idea of allowing Barbarians to chose a totem animal. If the Barbarian choses an animal known for speed and agility, then instead of gaining Strength during Rage, she would gain Dexterity instead. If the Barbarian choses an animal known for wisdom, such as an Owl, then she could gain Wisdom and Charisma instead of Strength and Constitution. I suppose these variants probably have a name other than "Rage" to indicate activation of their powers. "Trance" works for the Wisdom/Charisma Barbarians. I'm not sure what to call the activation of Dexterity/Constitution.
Sorcerers
When I was running a game based Norse mythology (called my "Audor" campaign), I held that Sorcerers were those who were given the gift of sorcery by one or more of the Gods. Odin or Freya would be the most likely to favor a mortal with such a gift. This was for 3.5, so I didn't consider how the different bloodlines would factor in.
I suppose with bloodlines, many sorcerers would gain their magic from draconic or fey ancestors, as in other Pathfinder campaigns. Sorcerers who are gifted with magic from a god would probably have the Destiny bloodline, although other bloodlines are possible.
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Worlds
The associations I made were as follows:
Muspelheim is associated with Mercury
Vanaheim is associated with Venus
Midgard is associated with Earth (of course)
Nidavellir could be associated with the Moon*
Asgard is associated with Mars
Alfheim is associated with Ceres
Jotunheim is associated with Jupiter
Svartalfheim could be associated with Saturn*
Utgard is associated with Uranus
Niflheim is associated with Pluto**
The Nine Worlds as the nine planets? Oh, that's a hot idea! Very, very awesome!
Sorcerers
When I was running a game based Norse mythology (called my "Audor" campaign), I held that Sorcerers were those who were given the gift of sorcery by one or more of the Gods. Odin or Freya would be the most likely to favor a mortal with such a gift. This was for 3.5, so I didn't consider how the different bloodlines would factor in.
Seithr magic (Freya-esque) 'feels' kinda like the Fey bloodline to me, although tweaking it a bit to better suit the feel of seithr might be an option. Freya's brother being the king of the elves also makes the fey association a cool one.
For Odin (and / or the Norns), something involving runes and divination. The Destined bloodline might work, with some reflavoring.
Dragon and Undead Bloodlines could also fit, as heroes sometimes gained powers from dragon's blood (not being related to them, but from actually drinking or bathing in the blood!), and Hel herself provides a precedent for a 'half-dead child' born with a strange connection to the underworld.
Devil and Demon bloodlines might not work so well...
A Giantish bloodline, perhaps a tweaked variation on the Elemental (fire and water) bloodlines, might be an interesting notion, removing some of the movement related stuff for more fire giant and frost giant related effects.
I'd also tweak the Fey bloodline in another direction and make a Trickster Bloodline, for those sorcerers whose power comes less from Freya and Seithr and more from Loki, sowing seeds of chaos where he can.
Barbarians
While not for a Nordic culture, I have been toying with an idea of allowing Barbarians to chose a totem animal. If the Barbarian choses an animal known for speed and agility, then instead of gaining Strength during Rage, she would gain Dexterity instead. If the Barbarian choses an animal known for wisdom, such as an Owl, then she could gain Wisdom and Charisma instead of Strength and Constitution. I suppose these variants probably have a name other than "Rage" to indicate activation of their powers. "Trance" works for the Wisdom/Charisma Barbarians. I'm not sure what to call the activation of Dexterity/Constitution.
Celtic lore sometimes refers to the battle frenzy or 'riastrad' of the hero Cu Chulainn as a 'warp-spasm' (due to actual physical transformations associated with the 'rage'). Something like warp or change or animus might work, as the character enters a more primal state of connectedness to the natural world, through his totem animal.
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Deities
Frigga
In my Audor campaign, I established as one of the cultural differences between the "Dormacs" and the "Dora-Tachuks" that the former worshipped Frigga as the Queen of Heaven and as goddess of matrimony. The latter put more emphasis on Frigga as a goddess of Fertility and Childbirth.
Jorth
I read in a few sources that Thor was the son of a goddess named Jorth, who was a goddess of the Earth. I haven't read much about Jorth, but I made her a major goddess in my own setting, describing her as "the Monica Lewinsky of the gods". She's a Jotun, Goddess of Earth and Fertility and Sexual Desire, lives in a great hall under the ground, alignment is Neutral, and her favored weapon would probably be a club or quarterstaff. Since I was running a 3.5 campaign and included some of my own Domains, I don't have a list of domains for her, but from the Pathfinder Core book I would assign her Animal, Charm, Earth, Plant, and I assigned all War domain to all the Norse gods.
I portrayed her as the mother of all mortal races, and she does not favor one over the other. Many of her clergy are Druids and are concerned about the preservation of nature.
Hod
I read in one source that Hod may have been Odin in disguise. It's an interesting thought, but if so, it would definitely be a campaign secret known to very few.
The same book also suggested that Od might also be another disguise of Odin.
A note on Raganarok
For my Atlantis idea, the events were portrayed as being very early in the history of the Norse gods, and many of the adventures might not even have happened yet.
But for Audor, my idea was to keep it vague just where in the sequence of events the Norse gods were. Was Balder made invulnerable to all but mistletoe yet? Was he slain yet? If he was not slain, why not send someone to Asgard to give Frigga a helpful hint?
I decided to resolve the paradox at least secretly by invoking Einstein's concept of simultanity -- the events in the tales are both in the future and they have already taken place, depending on how you get to Asgard. The mortals on the ground are not aware of this and only know that they are confused about the whole thing.
Odin
I've decided to make Odin Neutral Good, because while he is the giver of law, he is also a trickster who is liable to break his own rules if he believes that it will serve the higher good.
Sigyn
Loki's Asgardian wife is another minor deity whom I've fleshed out some for my Audor campaign. As you may know, she stays by Loki's side as he is tormented, holding a bucket to catch the venom being dripped by the snake that Skade placed over his head. Thus, Sigyn is the goddess of mercy and of unconditional love.
Her alignment is Lawful Good. Her favored weapon would be a net. Her domains would include Charm, Community, Good, and Protection.
Narvi
The son of Loki and Sigyn is known for being torn apart so that his entrails can be used to bind his father for punishment. Thus, I've elaborated this god as the god of bindings, whose worshippers include wizards skilled at exorcisms and sealing of arcane portals. He would probably be a good patron deity for Inquisitors.
His alignment is Lawful Neutral. His favored weapon would be a lasso or net. His domains would include Law, Rune, and War.
Skadi
In Audor, I determined that many of the female Barbarians and warriors would worship Skadi because she does not lay down a lot of restrictions, and because they admire her attitude. I established that worship of Skadi was especially prominent in the border region between the "quasi-nordic" culture and the "eastern barbarians" who worshipped a different pantheon involving a sun god and a wind goddess.
I hope somebody finds these ideas interesting.
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A Giantish bloodline, perhaps a tweaked variation on the Elemental (fire and water) bloodlines, might be an interesting notion, removing some of the movement related stuff for more fire giant and frost giant related effects.
Maybe the Giantish bloodline works as the Elemental bloodline, only it grants Enlarge as one of the bonus spells instead of Burning Hands.
Or perhaps the Giantish bloodline grants the ability to alter size, with benefits and penalties applying.
The Norse had land spirits cald Landvættir that were important to them.
How could I have forgotten about Gerd, the wife of Frey? I even had a PC who was going to become a cleric of Gerd as some point if the campaign had continued.
The basic story is that Frey was sitting in the tower Hlidskialf, when he saw a beautiful jotun maiden named Gerd, whose arm shown with light. He sent his servant to get her to marry him. At first she refused, but finally she agreed to meet him, and she fell in love with him and married him. But to arrange the meeting, Frey had to give his sword to her father, to be used against him at Raganarok.
I saw Gerd as a goddess of ice and winter, but also of the spring thaw. She is an important nature goddess, especially of the northern realms. She is a goddess of beauty and light, but also of aloofness. Reading the Wikipedia article, I also see that she is a rival of Frigga, and that images of her and Frey are often found in buildings, so she might also be the goddess of enclosures and buildings.
I put her alignment as Lawful Neutral. I would assign her a Sword as her favored weapon. Her domains might include Charm, Earth, Glory, Protection, and Weather.
awwww poor fenris.. chaotic evil? he was challenged to a fair contest of strength and cheated and betrayed by his friend. I'd want to get loose and rip odin's head off too.
Chaotic neutral.
Fenris, deity of werewolves for the win!
Are you sure Fenris was a male?
Thinking about Odin's alignment, I think that he is something like the Roman god Janus.
On the one hand, Odin is the giver of law, but on the other hand, he is frequently a breaker of that law. A true chaotic would just break laws and not bother giving them, especially laws that he knows he is going to have to break. But with Odin, it seems that both natures are essential to him, and that he is not really complete without one or the other. Thus, he incorporates the duality of both being lawful and being chaotic.
Thinking about Odin's alignment, I think that he is something like the Roman god Janus.
On the one hand, Odin is the giver of law, but on the other hand, he is frequently a breaker of that law. A true chaotic would just break laws and not bother giving them, especially laws that he knows he is going to have to break. But with Odin, it seems that both natures are essential to him, and that he is not really complete without one or the other. Thus, he incorporates the duality of both being lawful and being chaotic.
I agree. That's why I place him as True Neutral: he is the god of kings (LN), madmen and poets (CN), human sacrifice and war (NE/CE), and magic (CN); he is opposed to the (chaotic) giants (LN), pronounces doom on good and bad (N), and respects courage and bravery (CG). He's kind of all over the place, and Neutrality exemplifies not only a lack of extremes in some cases but also a balance between natures, which can be extreme. As a relentlessly curious and wide-ranging god, he seems Chaotic, but his opposition to the world-endangering chaos of the giants makes him Lawful. Perhaps the problem is that the Norse concept of law is not so rigorous as our own.
Thor I'd make CG, Freyr and Freya likewise. Loki is either CN or CE, depending on the source, but there is little evidence he was actually worshiped. Baldr is LG, as are Heimdallr and Tyr. The giant wives common among the Aesir are probably CN or CG.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
: he is the god of kings (LN), madmen and poets (CN), human sacrifice and war (NE/CE), and magic (CN); he is opposed to the (chaotic) giants (LN), pronounces doom on good and bad (N), and respects courage and bravery (CG). He's kind of all over the place,
This could be justification for the "Aberrent" bloodline of the Sorcerer class. It's not that they are into Cthulhuian mythos, it's that they are inspired by Odin but in a mad, crazy sort of way.