There a huge emphasis on magic items in DnD, though slightly less so with pathfinder. thats all well and good. lord knows there's satisfaction to be had in swinging that band new +3 sword of stabbity-dieing.
but what if i as the DM want to run a game with more emphasis placed on the characters and they're abilities then on they're stuff? are there any guidelines out there to tweak the rules in favor of an items-lite approach?
Unfortunately, the system is based on characters receiving a certain level of magical equipment based on their level.
If you don't follow these guidelines it can mess some stuff up. First off, you can't trust CR's anymore, and secondly, it can cause (and by "can" - I mean "will - and dramatically so") the gap between casters and non casters to get stupidly big.
The system has no real way to deal with these problems, which is unfortunate, because low or non-magic campaigns can be quite interesting...
There a huge emphasis on magic items in DnD, though slightly less so with pathfinder. thats all well and good. lord knows there's satisfaction to be had in swinging that band new +3 sword of stabbity-dieing.
but what if i as the DM want to run a game with more emphasis placed on the characters and they're abilities then on they're stuff? are there any guidelines out there to tweak the rules in favor of an items-lite approach?
As of yet... no.
If Paizo includes it any where I suspect it to be in the Game Mastery Guide being released in May. For a quick ruling I'd just make magic items cost DOUBLE what they are in the Core Rulebook.
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If you do this be EXTREMELY careful. As Treatmonk indicated, the CR system is based on the assumption that players have a certain value of magic items per level, messing with the formula can screw with things pretty significantly.
For example, I played Neverwinter Nights on a "low magic" server for awhile. Trying to find anything magical was like pulling teeth. Unfortunately one of the DMs decided to do a huge event with multiple greater mummies, and in doing so really brought forward an indication of what kind of problems occur since they all had significant Damage Reduction. The only players who actually could participate to any real degree were those who begged, borrowed, or stole their own magic weapons or those who could cast spells naturally.
If you decide to go low-magic, just be really cognizant of probable issues like this (DR is just one example of many).
You could remove the item creation feats from the game as far as PC-use is concerned - or just allow them to make consumables like potions, scrolls, maybe wands. Handle all other magic item distribution via treasure hoards or gear won by defeating enemies. That way, you can control the content of the magic (or at least durable magic) in the campaign.
Use a lot of leveled-up humanoids, natural creatures, and lower AC opponents in adventures. Stay away from from high end demons and devils that require multiple effects on magic items to get through their DR. Avoid creatures with extremely high ACs that expect the characters to be maxmally kitted out with magic weapons - fortunately, that's not all that hard.
I'm toying with some ideas of this for my Council of Thieves campaign. I'm tempted to keep magic item creation down, maybe even halve the cost of potions to compensate a bit, so that PCs seem less decked out like X-mas trees and more magic effects are temporary.
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If you want to run without changing too much, put the bonuses directly into the character advancement.
At 3rd level, let them pick one of the following.
Enhancement Bonus to Weapons :: +1/3 per character level.
Enhancement Bonus to Armor :: +1/3 per character level.
Enhancement Bonus to Attribute :: +1/3 per character level.
Resistance Bonus to Saving Throws :: +1/3 per character level.
Energy Resistance to an Energy Type :: +1 per character level.
Deflection Bonus to AC :: 1/4 per character level.
Enhancement Bonus to Some Other Thing (Natural Armor, DR, SR, whatever) :: +1/3 per char-
acter level.
Depending on how comfortable you feel, let them pick more as they level up, to a maximum of 8 different things. I would say every two levels after 3rd, but I don't know for sure.
This is a rough estimate of what the CR system expects the PCs to have stat-wise. It auto-scales, and you don't have to worry about accounting for character wealth. Bam, the characters are awesome, not the gear they use.
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If you do this be EXTREMELY careful. As Treatmonk indicated, the CR system is based on the assumption that players have a certain value of magic items per level, messing with the formula can screw with things pretty significantly.
I want to add my voice to those who are warning that you risk opening up a can of worms if you do this without considering its effect on your adventures. You need to look at all the monsters and ensure that they will still present a reasonable challenge for your party.
DR is the big thing, but the environment can become a factor too. By a certain level, it's reasonable to expect that multiple members of the party can fly using items or spells. If they don't have that, a flying opponent with ranged attacks is much more difficult. The same issue with underwater adventures. Yes, you can provide potions and scrolls, but they can easily be dispelled.
You also need to consider your players expectations. If you want to run a low-magic campaign, then you should let your potential players know and get their buy-in before the game starts.
If you want to cut down on certain items, what if you determined how much that type of magic normally improves the PCs in your campaign. Then let them improve their characters that much naturally every few levels so their stats would remain near the same levels.
For example, in my campaign, I might allow the PCs to "self-improve" by +1 in AC and all Saving throws, every 4 levels. (Then I could eliminate all the Amulets of Natural Armor).
Edit: I need to learn to type faster.
If you want to run without changing too much, put the bonuses directly into the character advancement.
At 3rd level, let them pick one of the following.
Enhancement Bonus to Weapons :: +1/3 per character level.
Enhancement Bonus to Armor :: +1/3 per character level.
Enhancement Bonus to Attribute :: +1/3 per character level.
Resistance Bonus to Saving Throws :: +1/3 per character level.
Energy Resistance to an Energy Type :: +1 per character level.
Deflection Bonus to AC :: 1/4 per character level.
Enhancement Bonus to Some Other Thing (Natural Armor, DR, SR, whatever) :: +1/3 per char-
acter level.Depending on how comfortable you feel, let them pick more as they level up, to a maximum of 8 different things. I would say every two levels after 3rd, but I don't know for sure.
This is a rough estimate of what the CR system expects the PCs to have stat-wise. It auto-scales, and you don't have to worry about accounting for character wealth. Bam, the characters are awesome, not the gear they use.
Or you can take a look at the Vow of Poverty in the Book of Exalted Deeds. The Vow itself is broken, but it makes a good guide of what bonuses people should have a different levels.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
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Dear Goose,
I run a relatively low magic campaign (just ask my players, but ignore their gipes). However, I have discovered that the skill of my players outways the somewhat reduced magic they have. In short, they balance themselves out. Without pulling punches, I've found that Pathfinder and 3.5 published adventures provide a reasonable challenge for my PF players, with the usual result of the bad guys ending up lying dead everywhere and the PCs hurt but still very much alive. This is what a successful game should look like. So my point is, you may want to consider the playing skill of your players. If they seem to need help at some point, work an interesting and helpful item into the story.
And btw, for published adventures, I usually drop several magic items from those included for the villains. It never makes that much of a difference, but it does eliminate the bags and bags of magic items players can accumulate. Good Luck!
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Or you can take a look at the Vow of Poverty in the Book of Exalted Deeds. The Vow itself is broken, but it makes a good guide of what bonuses people should have a different levels.
I played a VoP monk, I know all about it. :) That being said, it is a good starting point, but is quite rigid. It does require a lot of tweaking.
Intrinsic bonuses to stats received at certain thresholds is really the only way to remove magic item clutter from the game without screwing up the CR system and the balance between casters and non casters.
Basically non casters need magic pointy sticks and armor to keep pace with the casters and the monsters.
However I do think you can do somethings to reduce item dependence.
If you remove all of the ability boosters (belts and headbands) the fighter has a reduced DPR which makes fights tougher but the caster also has reduced DCs for spells + fewer spells. You'd probably want to extend duration on buffs like bear's endurance but those would effectively be a tax on the casters. I'd have to play with it to see if it screws up interparty balance too much. CR equivalent monsters would be much tougher.
Nerf a lot of the encounter winning spells from the game. If casters can't auto-win encounters by themselves, i.e. they need to work in conjunction with the non-casters then inter-party balance can be achieved. Note this seems to be the basic design philosophy of 4e so you might not like this suggestion ;) CR appropriate foes are generally tougher because they might last more rounds but that just requires common sense to adjudicate.
I take a bit of a different approach to this.
No system is perfect for your players, simply following a system top down (like the CR system for instance) is a great way to kill a campaign. Newer players may have magic items but not know how to use them effectively, munchkin powergamers may not have much magic but they sure know how to min/max their characters to turn your carefully crafted CR battle into a into a *facepalm* by the DM.
In all cases as the GM you're having to modify encounters based upon the PC's you're playing with. Running a low or high magic campaign is just one more "modification" you end up doing to each encounter they face. Like running a low magic campaign? Drop the DR on the creature, raise it's HP and/or AC...or add more of the same creature.
Running a low magic campaign isn't necessarily something that is too tough, what happens, however, is the treadmill gets yanked out from under you. Keep in mind why people play the game, the story is one thing but so is character development and obtaining more "power". How long can you realistically keep a two handed weapon or plate armor out of a warrior's hand in a campaign? Magic is one thing: it's rare. How do you explain that there are no armor-smiths with the skill to bang metal plates together in the world? And once he or she obtains that weapon or the armor, then what? How does a PC get more powerful after that other than a few more hit points and a few more skills?
There's several recommendations here about allowing PC's special abilities. I don't have a problem with this but there would be a bit of a suspension of disbelief involved: how did I all of a sudden, in a low magic world, manage to resist a burning torch shoved in my face?
Be careful with a low magic campaign and make sure that players always have something to "look forward to" as they continue through the campaign.
--Illydth
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There's several recommendations here about allowing PC's special abilities. I don't have a problem with this but there would be a bit of a suspension of disbelief involved: how did I all of a sudden, in a low magic world, manage to resist a burning torch shoved in my face?
By the same way you resist a sword slash. You got hit, but you're so tough it didn't faze you. HP is supposed to be an abstract concept anyway. If fire resistance negates the damage, it's not that the torch didn't burn you, it's that you refused to let it slow you down.
I agree with the previous posters that it's a difficult thing to tamper with. One game I played in that was low magic had increasing resistance to spells in all monsters by CR scaling up, and had us fighting a couple CRs lower than normal. It seemed to work okay, but was open to more tweaking. It was fun FWIW.
We only played trhough a few middle levels, then a couple players moved and the campaign ended.
Another option for a low magic campaign is to simply keep the campaign low level. A +1 sword is a rare thing for players under level 5. If you played a low level campaign, then a lot of the really powerful magic just goes away. You may want to look at running a campaign where the players are capped at a certain level. At that point they stop gaining levels, and just gain feats/skill points every X amount of XP.
In my current game, I'm running the following house rule:
Each level after the first, you may choose one of the following abilities. These abilities are supernatural, and represent your heroic spirit.
* +1 Enhancement bonus to Armor, Shield, or Weapon. This bonus may not exceed 1/4th of your level (round up, so at 5 you can gain +2, at 9 you can gain +3, etc). The shield bonus applies whenever you have a shield equipped, and the armor bonus applies whenever you are wearing anything. You can apply the weapon bonus to a single weapon with one minute of practice, and you may choose to purchase additional weapon bonuses (so you may have a +3 weapon and two +1 weapons).
* +4 Competence bonus to any skill. Starting at 7th level, you may purchase this bonus for a skill a second time for a total bonus of +8, and at 14th level you may purchase it a third time for a single skill for a total of +12.
* +2 Enhancement bonus to a single attribute. This bonus may not exceed +2 until level 7, and may not exceed +4 until level 14. Even after level 14, it may not exceed +6. These bonuses apply when leveling (for example, int for number of new skill points, or con for HP).
* One additional spell slot or spell per day of any level except the highest level you can cast. You may only select this ability once for every two levels you have.
* +1 Resistance bonus to saves. This bonus may not exceed 1/4th of your character level (round up, so at 5 you can gain +2, at 9 you can gain +3, etc).
I have a 3-person party with no healers or full-casters, so I can't really get a good grasp on how well it's keeping up with the CR system, but everything seems to be going well so far. Everybody is having fun and liking the system, so it's definitely a success as far as that goes.
One important thing to note is that this rule is NOT to compensate for a low-magic world, as that wasn't my intent. It's compensating for the party gaining slightly less than half the treasure they should be. The intent is to encourage more items that are actually magical rather than just better version of normal stuff (so a flaming sword rather than a +1 sword) and in that sense it has worked perfectly. It also gives me as a GM a lot more freedom because I don't have to worry nearly as much about making sure to work appropriate treasure into the campaign.
I'm kind of curious about what a 3.5/PF campaign without any PC magic would look like. So, not only are there no items, but no spells, spell like abilities or supernatural abilities. kind of like living in a anti-magic field. of course, the monsters would keep theirs.
has anyone tried something like this? I am guessing it would be next to impossible for PCs to survive without introducing some mechanism to heal faster or avoid damage, or really slow down the rate of combat.
I'm running a low-magic campaign for my crew, and I can say it certainly makes you think a bit more as you are building your adventures. Initially, I spent a bit of time doing some research on different approaches and ideas - these boards are great for that. Do a little legwork now and it will save you a lot of problems down the line.
Ultimately, what you do will depend on what your players will like and what you are comfortable doing. For my campaign, I am combining a number of different approaches to keep everything on an even keel.
First, I instituted a more robust system for "masterwork" items. For example, Masterwork weapons can give you the standard attack bonus, some give a damage bonus, some are extra light (weight reduction), some are harder to break, etc.. You can stack masterwork "traits" on a given weapon, but it gets more expensive the more you tack on. I have the same concept for armor and mundane items, like clothing.
Second, I made available (at specific levels) the various manuals that give stat bonuses. (i.e. Manual of Bodily Health).
Third, I have given out magic items, but I have a standing rule that no "generic" magic items exist. So no Magic Longsword +1. Instead, I treat most magic items like artifacts/relics/etc... They have names and typically do something other than the +1 to attack and damage thing. This means that when they do get a magic weapon, its generally better than the MW variety. The players seem to have enjoyed this change.
Fourth, I have done some monster tweaking, as mentioned above. Paying attention to DR, SR, etc... The upside to this is that opponents don't have the magic items either, which helps for npcs and such.
The beauty of this is that it allows some nice fine-grained tuning as you go along, if you realize that your players are more/less powerful than you want them to be (or they need to be). It gives you a couple different dimensions to toy with, and can help keep the players feeling like they are getting more powerful as they level.
The downside of this is that it is not a simple, single change that will "fix" the low magic problem. It takes some work, which means it isn't a solution for everyone. But it has worked well in my game so far. Like all things, your mileage may vary.
Start at first level, run until 6-ish level, retire PCs, rinse, repeat.
Here is a long thread addressing the issue. *
For minimal invasive surgery on the system, I recommend "Mana Gold" for "Invisible items" which basically keeps the math identical but makes the bonuses inherent instead of gear-based. That system and more can be found within the thread. Click it. It wants you to.
* new, functional search bar FTW
well biggest issue is bypassing DR but not exactally as hard as it sounds. Just make it so that certain special metals can bypass DR so a mundane sword of adamantine for example might Perice through all DR effects making it highly sought after, rare but something players could aquire with out getting tons of magic gear.
That being said gear is factored in its hard to just " take it" away and not destroy your party. Control i think is better route for the game, never just hand players manual and say " here buy what want" always leads to bad things happening. What i do is actually use oblivions system for selling stuff. Each shop keeper, has own set of gear, depending on partys reputation time of year, current economy of city what mark up will by. So a great sword of awesome might cost 100,000 in book but when players go to a big city where such items can be attained if its being sold might be 250,000 depending on mark up. Doing quests, good or bad deeds can effect these mark ups for better or worse, thus i keep a tight reign on how much gold party has and how much gear costs, while giving appearance of a real moving economy. Its worked well so far for my groups both in 4e and pathfinder campaigns i've run.
Play E6. Basically, the game works as normal until level 6, where you stop leveling (instead of 20). After that, you gain a feat every 5000 xp points. When you are level 6, while you do have magic items, you aren't a christmas tree of them. Also, at level 6 you could reduce the amount of magic items a lot and the players would make do anyway.
Also, you could re-flavor magic items into non-magic. For example, rename masterwork to high quality and +1 to masterwork. That way, a +1 sword isn't magic - it's just a very very fine piece of steel. And you could say that it works within anti-magic fields and so on. DR x/magic would be DR x/masterwork. It's hard to do that for more spectacular magic items,though.
I'm kind of curious about what a 3.5/PF campaign without any PC magic would look like. So, not only are there no items, but no spells, spell like abilities or supernatural abilities. kind of like living in a anti-magic field. of course, the monsters would keep theirs.
Yes. I've played a few no-pc-magic scenarios, though none was a long-standing campaign. All full casters, bards and paladins were banned. We used rangers without spellcasting. We did allow supernatural powers of for example monk, but no-one played a monk. The most supernatural thing were the SU abilities of a 5th level ranger.
It worked great. The scenarios have been more horror-inspired than pure fantasy, and had more non-combat then combat encounters. Not being able to get healing quickly, all characters where veeery careful with their HP and tried not to get into fights when possible (and using ambushes and the like).However, we changed the healing rate a bit. We let the hit points gained at level be "life points" - these were the pure physical condition of the character. All hit points gained after that were hit points. When a character was hurt into the life points, he was disabled (so yes, we made combat even more dangerous than removing healing). Also, healing life points were done in a rate of 1/day, while healing hit points were done in a rate of 1/hour.
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Play E6. Basically, the game works as normal until level 6, where you stop leveling (instead of 20). After that, you gain a feat every 5000 xp points. When you are level 6, while you do have magic items, you aren't a christmas tree of them. Also, at level 6 you could reduce the amount of magic items a lot and the players would make do anyway.
In all my years of playing I had never heard of E6 until now, and I have to say I'm very intrigued. That looks like a fantastic system for running in a lot of player's "sweet spot" as level 6 is the point where you can work alone, but you still usually need the assistance of others. As a low magic campaign it's pretty darned easy to run only because of with the level cap, none of the "awesome" magic items are being made regularly. Very interesting, I may have to consider that one for a low magic campaign I've been beating around in my brain.
Yes. I've played a few no-pc-magic scenarios, though none was a long-standing campaign. All full casters, bards and paladins were banned. We used rangers without spellcasting. We did allow supernatural powers of for example monk, but no-one played a monk. The most supernatural thing were the SU abilities of a 5th level ranger.
It worked great. The scenarios have been more horror-inspired than pure fantasy, and had more non-combat then combat encounters. Not being able to get healing quickly, all characters where veeery careful with their HP and tried not to get into fights when possible (and using ambushes and the like).
that sounds fun! did you end up using the CR system at all, or otherwise adjust encounters? I'm guessing it was low level...
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You could restrict all craft feats to NPCs and as a DM limit what is available. To me every magic item should have a name and history (that Bards know!)
I really like the idea of giving Wizards the ability to temporarily enchant a weapon - keeps the characters from running around with crazy weapons, enforces a little a degree of resource management ("Hmmm, fireball or temporary enchantment I?"), and allows parties to deal with damage reduction issues.
The spells can be found in Adamant Entertainment's Tome of Secrets and as a separate OGL product HERE.
I'm running into a potentially similar problem with magic items in my new Ravenloft campaign it would seem. The setting itself is extremely low-magic; magic exists, but it's rare, illegal, or just "taboo". One of my players piped up and said "Oh, I'll just take craft wonderous item next level" and I got a shiver up my spine.
I've been trying to think of a way around item creation. I don't want to ban it outright, but at the same time, once the players start custom making whatever they want or need for a particular encounter, the whole "fear" element of Ravenloft goes right out the window. I'm thinking about maybe doubling the minimum caster level required to take each item creation feat. That might at least delay it until they are already magically powerful themselves(party of full casters) and there won't be as much of a need for items.
No game system is perfect.
Having said that, this is one of those things that I really hate about d20 - too much of what makes your character your character has to do with his gear.
I'm of the firm opinion that a level 20 character should have -maybe- one or two magic items and that most characters shouldn't get their first magic item until level 10.
But these magic items should be legendary and unique - maybe even intelligent and/or with some sort of fun curse on it (think Elric).
Again, though, d20 simply isn't set up that way. It's set up so that half your character sheet describes the gear you have.
This type of system basically requires nerfing spellcasting down into the basement or making it NPC only. While that might fit some campaign styles (Sword & Sorcery ala Conan or Lankhmar) it doesn't fit the tropes of D&D well. Why not just play Conan or BRP Stormbringer instead?
I'm running into a potentially similar problem with magic items in my new Ravenloft campaign it would seem. The setting itself is extremely low-magic; magic exists, but it's rare, illegal, or just "taboo". One of my players piped up and said "Oh, I'll just take craft wonderous item next level" and I got a shiver up my spine.
I've been trying to think of a way around item creation. I don't want to ban it outright, but at the same time, once the players start custom making whatever they want or need for a particular encounter, the whole "fear" element of Ravenloft goes right out the window. I'm thinking about maybe doubling the minimum caster level required to take each item creation feat. That might at least delay it until they are already magically powerful themselves(party of full casters) and there won't be as much of a need for items.
Make a random curse table and whenever a new permanent magic item is created, there's a percentage chance that you'll roll on that table.
Then, never tell the player whether his item has a curse.
Oh yeah, and make the curses colorful and scary, of course.
Nice! *takes notes*
This type of system basically requires nerfing spellcasting down into the basement or making it NPC only.I *think* you're basing that on the argument that spell casting is much more powerful than fighting or skills such that the only way the fighter or rogue can keep up is if they have magic items.
I'm going to argue that another way to keep fighters and rogues equal is to make weapon combat and skills more powerful.
Either way it requires massive rewrites to the base game. It's not impossible but I think that some other games do low magic better for less effort.
CR math and class balance (such that it is) is pretty intimately tied to gear. Remove gear upgrades and all the classes suffer but some classes suffer more than others.
There's several recommendations here about allowing PC's special abilities. I don't have a problem with this but there would be a bit of a suspension of disbelief involved: how did I all of a sudden, in a low magic world, manage to resist a burning torch shoved in my face?By the same way you resist a sword slash. You got hit, but you're so tough it didn't faze you. HP is supposed to be an abstract concept anyway. If fire resistance negates the damage, it's not that the torch didn't burn you, it's that you refused to let it slow you down.
I agree with TriOmegaZero in regards to building in some of the bonuses, passing DR, etc. into to the base classes. You just have to accept it as another abstract layer, where a certain class over time through rigourous study, experience, etc. obtains the extra benefits, so you don't have to rely on magic items as much.
You already have monks fists treated as magic weapons, why not extend it a little more.
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There a huge emphasis on magic items in DnD, though slightly less so with pathfinder. thats all well and good. lord knows there's satisfaction to be had in swinging that band new +3 sword of stabbity-dieing.
but what if i as the DM want to run a game with more emphasis placed on the characters and they're abilities then on they're stuff? are there any guidelines out there to tweak the rules in favor of an items-lite approach?
I've done something similar with 3.5e before (Pathfinder wasn't out back then) and I have to say, it's more work but it's really not that hard. The first thing to realize isn't that even in core/baseline 3.5e, the CR system is wonky (and gets wonkier the higher in level/CR you go) and that classes aren't balanced to begin with.
Whatever items you ban, you need to keep an eye on how much hurt the party can dish out and set them up with appropriate monsters (NPCs are a no-brainer since they'll be in the same boat as the party). You might have to adjust a few monster traits (DR being the peskiest). Really, it comes down to your definition of "low-magic" and what items you want to remove from the game. Those answers are very key to the question.
Also, Pathfinder gives you another tuning knob in the for of different XP advancement tracks (fast, medium, & slow). For example, you could say melee classes (Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue) use the fast XP track, full casters (Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard) use the slow track, and "half-casters" (Bard, Ranger, Paladin) use the medium track. Or you could use a different method, like BAB or hit die, to discriminate class advancement speed. Something like this would allow you to throttle back casters and speed progression for melee'ers to tweak class balance. Granted I haven't done that before, so there may be some hidden gotchas (multiclassing could be a pain), but you can use that as a starting point. It also has the advantage of feeling old school, if your players are old schoolers.
While it can certainly be done, it's really a matter of how much work you want to put into the necessary tweaks to the system. Also, I probably wouldn't fiddle with it too much if you're a DM that is relatively inexperienced with 3e/3.5e. Whatever you do, good luck!
-Skeld
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Play E6. Basically, the game works as normal until level 6, where you stop leveling (instead of 20). After that, you gain a feat every 5000 xp points. When you are level 6, while you do have magic items, you aren't a christmas tree of them. Also, at level 6 you could reduce the amount of magic items a lot and the players would make do anyway.In all my years of playing I had never heard of E6 until now, and I have to say I'm very intrigued. That looks like a fantastic system for running in a lot of player's "sweet spot" as level 6 is the point where you can work alone, but you still usually need the assistance of others. As a low magic campaign it's pretty darned easy to run only because of with the level cap, none of the "awesome" magic items are being made regularly. Very interesting, I may have to consider that one for a low magic campaign I've been beating around in my brain.
Yeah, me too....I like the look of E6 and am printing it out now. I plan to convert this over to Pathfinder and try it out in a game. I hate playing past 10th level anymore and this looks like a fix to that.
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There a huge emphasis on magic items in DnD, though slightly less so with pathfinder. thats all well and good. lord knows there's satisfaction to be had in swinging that band new +3 sword of stabbity-dieing.
but what if i as the DM want to run a game with more emphasis placed on the characters and they're abilities then on they're stuff? are there any guidelines out there to tweak the rules in favor of an items-lite approach?
I've done something similar with 3.5e before (Pathfinder wasn't out back then) and I have to say, it's more work but it's really not that hard. The first thing to realize isn't that even in core/baseline 3.5e, the CR system is wonky (and gets wonkier the higher in level/CR you go) and that classes aren't balanced to begin with.
Whatever items you ban, you need to keep an eye on how much hurt the party can dish out and set them up with appropriate monsters (NPCs are a no-brainer since they'll be in the same boat as the party). You might have to adjust a few monster traits (DR being the peskiest). Really, it comes down to your definition of "low-magic" and what items you want to remove from the game. Those answers are very key to the question.
Also, Pathfinder gives you another tuning knob in the for of different XP advancement tracks (fast, medium, & slow). For example, you could say melee classes (Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue) use the fast XP track, full casters (Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard) use the slow track, and "half-casters" (Bard, Ranger, Paladin) use the medium track. Or you could use a different method, like BAB or hit die, to discriminate class advancement speed. Something like this would allow you to throttle back casters and speed progression for melee'ers to tweak class balance. Granted I haven't done that before, so there may be some hidden gotchas (multiclassing could be a pain), but you can use that as a starting point. It also has the advantage of feeling old school, if your players are old schoolers.
While...
another good looking idea for balancing the classes.....use the differing XP advancement speeds to slow down or speed up certain classes.....may need to look into this...
I've done something similar with 3.5e before (Pathfinder wasn't out back then) and I have to say, it's more work but it's really not that hard. The first thing to realize isn't that even in core/baseline 3.5e, the CR system is wonky (and gets wonkier the higher in level/CR you go) and that classes aren't balanced to begin with.
Whatever items you ban, you need to keep an eye on how much hurt the party can dish out and set them up with appropriate monsters (NPCs are a no-brainer since they'll be in the same boat as the party). You might have to adjust a few monster traits (DR being the peskiest). Really, it comes down to your definition of "low-magic" and what items you want to remove from the game. Those answers are very key to the question.
Same here.
The system works perfectly well without magic. However, our assumption of what make a typical AD&D game doesn't.
That means that most adventures and modules may be problematic because of the lack of assumed resources.
It also means that the selection of monsters and character classes is reduced dramatically. Monsters' abilities should not have to be modified, but their CR should be adjusted. By how, much? That's pretty much the only place where the RaW fails to provide a clear answer about running a no or low-magic setting.
Other than that, there is nothing wrong with the system as it is, just as the system is fully capable of running a world where monsters an demi-humans do not exist. Perhaps playing in a low-magic setting is not using the system to its fullest potential, but the foundations of the d20 system are solid enough to provide just as well as any other system IMO.
No game system is perfect.
Having said that, this is one of those things that I really hate about d20 - too much of what makes your character your character has to do with his gear.
I'm of the firm opinion that a level 20 character should have -maybe- one or two magic items and that most characters shouldn't get their first magic item until level 10.
But these magic items should be legendary and unique - maybe even intelligent and/or with some sort of fun curse on it (think Elric).
Again, though, d20 simply isn't set up that way. It's set up so that half your character sheet describes the gear you have.
+1
I also dislike the bag-lady cart of magic items everyone carries around after low levels.
I'm intrigued by the few, but powerful, items route. Seems like some game design in this direction could be worked into the system as it is without having to start from scratch. Hmmm....
Unfortunately, the system is based on characters receiving a certain level of magical equipment based on their level.
If you don't follow these guidelines it can mess some stuff up. First off, you can't trust CR's anymore, and secondly, it can cause (and by "can" - I mean "will - and dramatically so") the gap between casters and non casters to get stupidly big.
The system has no real way to deal with these problems, which is unfortunate, because low or non-magic campaigns can be quite interesting...
You could put the full spellcaster classes on the slow XP progression, partime casters like bards on the standard and melee types on the fast. :-) Something to try anyhow!
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You could put the full spellcaster classes on the slow XP progression, partime casters like bards on the standard and melee types on the fast. :-) Something to try anyhow!
Just have to be aware of multiclassing. I could see myself going Fighter for two levels to give me a relatively quick boost in survivability, then continue in cleric or wizard. I guess if you don't mind tracking multiple XP totals it works?