The Shadowdancer’s hide in plain sight can only be used while within 10’ of dim light. My question is how to determine the lighting condition where darkvision is concerned. As I see it there is no dim light within the range of a creature’s darkvision and as such the shadowdancer can only use this ability while within 10’ of the edge of this vision and if they move any closer they are seen unless there is some sort of cover or concealment.
Does the dim light area depend on the perception of the lighting of the one making the perception check or on the one trying to use stealth? Should a racial ability so common make such an ability this difficult to use?
Seems simple enough but I would appreciate any constructive input.
hm... you know darkvision isn't low light... so I've always had this thing where it doesn't actually work were light is present. So shadows would still play havoc on a dwarf since it's not dark enough to have his darkvision active, and it's not light enough to see normally.
Think of Riddick in Pitch Black if it helps any, only the dwarf has normal vision too... he has to choose which to use at any time though.
Abraham, while I love the flavor of that use of darkvision the Vision and Light section from chapter 7 states that creatures within an area of dim light have 20% concealment from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. So it seems to work in shadowy conditions.
The all seeing eye, I did see these before posting and the answer to my question is not there. Thanks for the reference though.
In that case I'll jump in with what I had writen...
I'm sure Shadowlord will correct me at some point if I'm wrong.
Some relvent points:
From Additional Rules: "Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover."
That basically covers why a character doesn't suffer penalties to attack nor miss change for concealment, and why a creature can't normally use concealment from lighting to hide from creature with darkvision.
However...
"A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow."
A shadowdancer could be standing 10 feet away from a porch at high noon at the equator and still use Stealth while the whole cast of Lost watches. (Assuming the porch is casting an area of Dim Light directly under its roof).
From a RAW standpoint Darkvision does not actually change the environment lighting condition. It isn't like a Light Spell. The 'Dim Light' condition is not subjective and that is important for the Shadowdancer. Even if she was standing inside the 'Dim Light' and being observed by an Orc she can still hide as she doesn't need cover (or concealment).
From a fluff stand point I'd like to point out that the Shadowdancer's ability is a Supernatural one which suggests she is using the 'power' of shadow to hide herself. Doing so to the point that she only needs to be 10 feet from it. Also think of dark-vision like IR binoculars, the darkness is still there for the Shadowdancer to use. Your darkvision hasn't gotten rid of it.
Now if a monster had "Floodlight Eyes" that actually changed the lighting condition the way a Light [evocation sub-school] spell did, then the Shadowdance could be in for some trouble.
In that case you have to be outside of the darkvision range (60 feet in the case of dwarves) in order to hide in the dark. Otherwise they can see you and as such you can't hide. SO if there is dim lighting 65 feet away you *should* be good to hide in it... up until the dwarf five foot steps closer to you.
Turning the darkness into supernatural darkness (the step where even darkvision can't see) would work though... course then you really don't need to hide...
A Shadowdancer cannont hide in Total Darkness as it is not 'Dim Light'. Complete darkness of any type screws with the SDs HiPS.
A Shadowdancer cannont hide in Total Darkness as it is not 'Dim Light'. Complete darkness of any type screws with the SDs HiPS.
Not what I meant. I meant that outside of the darkvision range you wouldn't need to hide since they can't see you anyways. Hence why you could still use the supernatural darkness, which provides you with total concealment which means you can hide without HiPS.
GAH!
I meant HERE
But Dorje is here now and can advocate his POV from that previous thread...heh.
From the other thread/my take:
1. A Shadowdancer's HiPS is Supernatural in nature (SU)
2. The power describes the SD's relationship to shadows.
3. Seeing in the dark does not mean that shadows are not there, merely that you can see in the dark.
4.
So my logic is this; if the shadowdancer is uniquely (supernaturally) acquainted with shadows and they can hide when being observed...why does it matter if the observer has Darkvision?
Additionally, I side with Shadowlord and others in the other thread I am referencing here that Dorje's assertion ie. darkness overriding HiPS for the Shadowdancer is RAW accurate but not how I personally perceive the RAI...but that is what groups and DMs are for.
Edit: Word modification and clarification.
Dorje Sylas I agree that a shadowdancer can hide in plain sight within 10’ of dim light, that is a no brainer. What I do contend with is the fact that darkvision is not dim light to the observer hence no chance to use the ability if you get too close. Lighting conditions are dependant on the point of view. Where lowlight and normal vision are concerned an area can have 2 light levels at the same time. Does the shadowdancers perception of dim light matter or the one perceiving them?
RAI it would be correct that total darkness would cut a shadow dance off from shadow. Shadow on the tradition of the game is the interplay between light and darkness. If there is no light there is no shadow. If there is no darkness (total light) there is no shadow.
Even back in 3.5 I would have ruled that a SD could not have hidden in total darkness (although it is fairly easy to fix the lack of light to the point you get shadows.
If Paizo wanted to have the SD hide in total darkness it would have been easy to say something "can hide in Dim Light or darker" and it would have been good. But that is not the case.
Dorje Sylas I agree that a shadowdancer can hide in plain sight within 10’ of dim light, that is a no brainer. What I do contend with is the fact that darkvision is not dim light to the observer hence no chance to use the ability if you get too close. Lighting conditions are dependant on the point of view. Where lowlight and normal vision are concerned an area can have 2 light levels at the same time. Does the shadowdancers perception of dim light matter or the one perceiving them?
Shadowdancers care about shadows. Shadow is an objective "thing" not a subjective perception and I mean this as an honest statement. The power stipulates the presence of shadows not conditional on whether or not someone can see in the "dark". (Which I think is supported by the "supernatural" nature of the power)
They can hide while being seen (RAW) when "near" a shadow. A shadow is there. The darkvision person can see them. The shadowdancer hides.
Edit: Clarification and addendum.
Additionally: By extension a shadowdancer can hide in a shadow from a blind person. Just because they don't "see" shadows doesn't mean they (the shadows) aren't there.
RAI it would be correct that total darkness would cut a shadow dance off from shadow. Shadow on the tradition of the game is the interplay between light and darkness. If there is no light there is no shadow. If there is no darkness (total light) there is no shadow.
Even back in 3.5 I would have ruled that a SD could not have hidden in total darkness (although it is fairly easy to fix the lack of light to the point you get shadows.
If Paizo wanted to have the SD hide in total darkness it would have been easy to say something "can hide in Dim Light or darker" and it would have been good. But that is not the case.
I understand what you are saying, I have no beef with the concept I just think my players would kill me, and it is their game more than mine. That said we are people who tend to interpret liberally and thematically not mechanically or even with the idea of "intentionality" in regards to the rules and that is what works for us. I just wanted to add my POV.
I will say however, that there are a lot of things that Paizo could have said to more expressly convey their "wants" and given the rules fights on this board I am going to go ahead and say that the "they could have written it differently if they meant something else" logic is true objectively but doesn't seem to hold in the current climate of errata and such, IMO.
One of the things that I am glad that paizo did was to change the wording to power back hide in plain sight. The easiest way to tell if something is broken is to see how many people go out of their way to pick it up. Plenty went down that path. Don’t get me wrong I love to play rogues but it was far too easy to hide in 3.5 shadowdancer and now it is more difficult. I like the changes because it makes me be more creative than just picking a shadow of something to hide around. Now you must be aware of what is coming in order to effectively hide and you can’t always pull it off. The smart rogue runs when things don’t go to plan.
As to low-light visions impact on Dim Light is an interesting issue. I can get two rulings out it. In round about RAW reading an elf shadow dancer would be able to hide in double radious of a Dim Light area. Although on that distance should only really apply to effective vision not the actual area of Dim Light.
Aditional rules: "Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters."
While you could read the effecitve radious increase as an increase across the board for abilities, to me that seem to ignore that intent is deal with vision base effects. This increase is still based on an objective distance (be it a torch or dancing lights). Another oddity is the overlap in Normal and Dim Light areas when comparing Normal and Low-light vision.
However from the glossary:
"Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to him as a source of light.
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day."
This deals with vision/sight alone. Like wise from the universal monster rules:
"Low-Light Vision (Ex) A creature with low-light vision can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of dim light. It retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions."
Again this deals only with sight, not a change in the underlying lighting condition. I feel fairly safe in saying that only the base lighting condition should be considered when determaining when and where a Shadow Dancer had acess to Dim Light.
What matters more the perception of the person hiding or the perception of the person seeking? I think we are splitting the same hair here but from opposite sides. I would like to see this particular ability have some decent catches short of true seeing to make things a bit more challenging for the hide in plain sight ability. The only place that it makes a big difference is in an open area with nothing for cover or concealment.
RAI it would be correct that total darkness would cut a shadow dance off from shadow. Shadow on the tradition of the game is the interplay between light and darkness. If there is no light there is no shadow. If there is no darkness (total light) there is no shadow.
Even back in 3.5 I would have ruled that a SD could not have hidden in total darkness (although it is fairly easy to fix the lack of light to the point you get shadows.
If Paizo wanted to have the SD hide in total darkness it would have been easy to say something "can hide in Dim Light or darker" and it would have been good. But that is not the case.
This is a valid interpretation of the rules. It wouldn't bother me one iota if this was how it worked and in fact I suspect it does. Dim light is not total darkness. However a SHADOW can be utter darkness, it is merely an area that light cannot directly reach due to obstruction by an object, be that object the earth itself in the case of a pitch black cave or, ya know, night time.
Be that as it may, as a DM I would allow a Shadowdancer to HiPS in complete darkness. Until I hear an official ruling/clarification I don't feel it's unreasonable.
s ss, how do you feel about a ranger's HiPS? What about a Desert ranger hiding in the illusion of a forest (illusory terrain)? What if knows it's an illusion, what if he doesn't? Same thought puzzle or a Forest ranger in side that illusionary forest? Does his (and others) failure to detect the illusion allow him to hide? What about a Shadow Dance or Assassin in the illusion of total light? What if they see throught it and know there is Dim Light and Shadow? Can they only hide from people who also see through the illusion.
My point is that the objective reality should take priorty over "point of view" alteration. Otherwise you start running down the path of subjective reality and need to track each individuals perception of the situation.
The counters to HiPS are about the same as counters to Invisibilty (and considering the level these abilites are obtained this makes sense. Messing with the lighting level for one a creature with darkvision who cast Darkness on itself has now protected itself very effectivly against a Shadow Dancer and likely from other attacks as well. Unless they can bring a level 3+ magical light into play. Tremorsense or scent can also be effective. That and good perception check.
Meatrace, put a 3.5 Shadow Dancer or PF assasin inside black body device where photons are diverted around them. This a case where not light exists at all. Extream but makes my point. While technically correct that while under ground, the earth itself is blocking sunlight, if you stopped and asked a random person if there is shadow in a pitch black cave I'm going guess they'll say no. However thankfully the SD nolonger suffers from this extended meta thought.., only the PF Assassin.
Edit: An area that could generally be described as shadowy has additional reflected light entering that space. As I look around my current location and all the things casting shadows I can see that light is still reflecting into those spaces from other surfaces, and are bot totally black areas. If I were to put some kind of light sensor there it would still pick up readings. If I were to put that same sensor in a perfectly sealed box (no light gets in a all) it would detect anything. Even though the darkness with the box is technically the result of sides blocking light from the established light source, it is still darkness the total absense of light.
Again from a fantasy lore stand point Shadow exists in the interplay between Light and Darkness. If there is 0 Light, there is no Shadow.
I'm sure Shadowlord will correct me at some point if I'm wrong.
Nice to see I have made a lasting impression.
The Shadowdancer’s hide in plain sight can only be used while within 10’ of dim light. My question is how to determine the lighting condition where darkvision is concerned. As I see it there is no dim light within the range of a creature’s darkvision and as such the shadowdancer can only use this ability while within 10’ of the edge of this vision and if they move any closer they are seen unless there is some sort of cover or concealment.
Does the dim light area depend on the perception of the lighting of the one making the perception check or on the one trying to use stealth? Should a racial ability so common make such an ability this difficult to use?
The answer to your first question is that Darkvision doesn't change the lighting conditions at all. The only thing it does is let a person or creature with Darkvision see in dim light or darkness as well as if those areas were lit. In lit areas (bright or normal light) concealment cannot be used to attempt a Stealth check, you must have cover or invisibility. So, since Darkvision allows a creature to see dim and dark areas as well as they could see in a lit area, the requirements to use Stealth against them are the same as for normal vision in a lit area: cover or invisibility. However, Darkvision does not in any way change the actual lighting conditions, the dim light or darkness is still there.
Does this mean that Darkvision trumps a Shadowdancer's HiPS(SU)? I don't believe so for several reasons:
1) Darkvision is an (EX) ability, it is fairly common and completely mundane in nature. A Shadowdancer's HiPS on the other hand is a (SU) ability which by definition makes the ability magical in nature. I believe a (SU) ability designed to defeat "visual detection" should trump an (EX) ability based on "visual detection."
2) Adding to point #1, I believe a lot of you have missed one important part of the Darkvision description:
Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black-and-white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.
Darkvision allows a creature to see in darkness anything they could otherwise see in the light. A Shadowdancer can in fact use HiPS and disappear in broad daylight, as long as he is within 10' of dim light. Darkvision is removing the concealment granted by dim light or darkness, but it doesn't remove the dim light or darkness itself and the Shadowdancer doesn't rely on concealment to hide, he is using a supernatural connection to the shadows around him. HiPS(SU) is a magical ability, not unlike invisibility or any other illusion, and Darkvision doesn't pierce those things; it only allows you to see what you would otherwise be able to see in the light. So if a Shadowdancer could potentially disappear from sight in the light, then he can disappear from sight in darkness as well, even against Darkvision.
3) I really don't think it is balanced to allow a racial ability (Low-Light vision/Darkvision) that five out of the seven core races automatically get, not to mention numerous monsters, to defeat something that a PC or NPC would have to earn levels in one of two Prestige classes to attain (1st level Shadowdancer {6th level character}/8th level Assassin {13th level character}).
4) Consider for a moment the idea of a Dwarven or Drow Shadowdancer or Assassin. It seems to make sense right, they both are accustomed to living in dark areas and if either of them were to take the path of Stealth it would seem a perfect fit for PC and NPC alike. However, if Darkvision trumped their most powerful Stealth ability it would be utterly useless for them in a society and environment where everyone and everything they are surrounded by has Darkvision. It is bad enough that many monsters have Tremmorsense, Blindsense, or Blindsight but if Darkvision beat HiPS(SU) than there would be no point to Stealth at all for such races. I just don't see that being the intent.
In short I don't think that Darkvision trumps the (SU) versions of HiPS that the Shadowdancer and Assassin receive. I also don't think it trumps a Ranger's (EX) version of HiPS. The Ranger's HiPS has absolutely nothing to do with shadows, it is based on environment and he can disappear into his Favored Terrain just as easily in the day as he could at night so I see no reason why Darkvision should detect it. The only version of HiPS I have ever seen that I believe Darkvision would trump is the (EX) version that is dependent on being in shadows granted to the 3.5 Dark Creature Template.
....
To address a few other things I saw in the thread, IMO:
A) True Seeing should defeat HiPS(SU) since it is a magical effect not unlike invisibility or some other illusion. Antimagic Fields can disrupt HiPS(SU), it is obviously a magical ability. True Seeing was meant to see through magical effects so while it doesn't specifically name HiPS I believe it should work. It would certainly not work against any (EX) form of HiPS though.
B) Yes, a Shadowdancer could hide in shadows against a blind man, but so could anyone else. Against a blind man lighting conditions don't matter because he is blind, making everyone around him automatically invisible in relation to him.
C) As for a Shadowdancer's HiPS working in darkness, by strict interpretation of RAW it seems Dorje Sylas is correct. However, I do not agree with that interpretation for several reasons which are my own opinions and interpretation of RAI:
C1) See argument #4 above: Without being able to use three Shadowdancer abilities (HiPS, Shadow Jump, and Shadow Master) in darkness, as well as dim light, this class would be utterly useless to any race or society that spent the majority of their lives underground. Personally, I feel that Dwarven, Drow, and Duergar Shadowdancers would be a perfect fit for Stealthy NPCs but not if their abilities are useless in the prevalent lighting condition of their home environment.
C2) Three of this class' major (SU) abilities (HiPS, Shadow Jump, and Shadow Master) require dim light to function. The Shadowdancer is already a relatively weak PrC, but limiting three of their most powerful abilities (including their capstone ability) to only one of the four lighting conditions makes them a class not even worth consideration. Not to mention that the lighting condition you are limiting them to is probably the least common condition they will ever encounter in their adventuring careers.
C3) Your major argument is that "shadow" is the interplay of light and darkness and that darkness is the utter absence of light and therefore there can be no shadows. But that isn't really accurate. Shadow comes from the Plane of Shadow. All shadow and darkness on the Material Plane is connected to the Plane of Shadow. There is no light on the Plane of Shadow but there is certainly plenty of shadow. In fact the material that makes up the Shadow Plane is called Shadowstuff and is the thing that gives Shade's (I am referring here to the Shade template, not the undead monsters) their powers, many of which are similar to Shadowdancer abilities. Shadows are not the interplay of light and dark; shadow is its own element.
C4) If a Shadowdancer's powers are only meant to work in dim light, but not in darkness then why are so many of their abilities so strongly tied to the Plane of Shadow which is a world of total darkness? Shadow Illusion, Shadow Call, Summon Shadow, and Shadow Conjuration are all abilities tied strongly to the Plane of Shadow itself. They even gain Darkvision as opposed to Low-Light vision.
For these reasons I believe that dim light is simply the minimum lighting required (or rather maximum lighting allowed) for them to use their abilities. Who would ever enter a PrC knowing that three of their major abilities, including their capstone ability, would almost never be useful? If that were the case, entering this PrC wouldn't give you a niche so much as give you a complete dependence on one of four lighting conditions. You would have to make some custom magic item that could shed just enough light in darkness to turn it to dim light and enough darkness in normal light to turn it to dim light as well just to make your PrC abilities useful. That’s my take on it.
B) Yes, a Shadowdancer could hide in shadows against a blind man, but so could anyone else. Against a blind man lighting conditions don't matter because he is blind, making everyone around him automatically invisible in relation to him
Right, because shadows is an objective thing not a subjective perception.
*Anyone* can hide in shadows , regardless of who is looking, it is just that certain types of sight allow one to remove the value of shadow's effect on perception. I used the blind person as an example of the dangers of classifying lighting as a subjective phenomena.
*Anyone* can hide in shadows , regardless of who is looking
Right, but: Anyone can hide against a blind man, regardless of the lighting conditions as well. It could be in bright light. Lighting never comes into play in that scenario because you are already effectively invisible vs. the blind man. So, it's not the presence or absence of shadow that is allowing you to hide here, it is the fact that you are, for all intents and purposes, invisible.
it is just that certain types of sight allow one to remove the value of shadow's effect on perception. I used the blind person as an example of the dangers of classifying lighting as a subjective phenomena.
I see what you are saying though.
I'm sure Shadowlord will correct me at some point if I'm wrong.Nice to see I have made a lasting impression.
I know when I'm playing second fiddle. :-D
I never had a problem creating dim light, although it was far easier back in 3.5 to create shadows. The important thing is to be aware of the limitations.
I never saw the Shadow Dancer as a subterranean racial class of choice or even one such a society would develop. Underground and leaping about don't quite link up in my mind. The total darkness is very different then shadowy regions. It always seemed to me that Gnomes were the most likely to embrace such powers, and for Golarion gnomes adapted to the fade condition most of all. The goblinoid races likewise seem good candidates, despite typically being cave dwelling, tend to hunt at night and the twilight hours. 'Twilight' races or cultures are the best fit. Bugbear Shadow Dancers can be down right mean. Elves kind of ride 3rd on that list depending on the cultural context. Bascially any races with Low-Light vision, as they can operate at night (the best time for a Shadow Dancer) without hinderance.
I'd disagree that the Shadow Plane is lightless. It is deeply infused with negative energy (a.k.a. darkness) which is what IMO creates the overpowering gloom and 'dim' light of that plane. It is still tied to the Material plane as a reflection so I would argue does draw some light (and life). Otherwise it would just be a sub-region of Negative Energy Plane. While there is Shadow stuff that can be manipulated by various spells that draw on the Shadow Plane I would almost classify that as a Para-Element like Ice or Magma, but an interplay between Positive (Light) and Negative (Dark) energy. Although the Shadow Plane has its strongest overlap in Prime shadows, points of weakness between the two then actually being generated by Shadow Plane.
Going a bit Sci-Fantasy-Fictiony-Magic for another moment, Humans only see a fraction of 'light' this is what is defined as 'Normal.' In this case we can assume that the bleed points between the Material Plane and Shadow Plane tend to exist in areas that Humans define as 'shadows.' For other races like Elves or Dwarves who see far more then humans don't have an impact on those weak points. Those still exist regardless of the viewer. Because the Shadow Dancer taps into the Shadow Plane (with supernatural powers) at those weak points to both hide from sight and use other powers, her powers aren't affected by another creature's (or her own) vision.
Here is a good thought. What IS dim light? Dim light here is different that dim light on Mercury during the day. That said, how does thermal radiation affect this? Realize that anything with a temperature above 0 Kelven glows.
I dont even see an issue in this, like shadowlord is explaining very detailed is that the feel and idea and design of the shadowdancer should trumpf any rulelawyering which this feels like to me :D
the lighting is a conditional requirement for the power to be used, not a criteria for detection. The criteria for detection is the stealth check. The hiding in plain sight merely lets the shadow dancer attempt a stealth check as I see it.
If a rogue is creeping along a moonlit city street moving from shadow to shadow with a stealth check of 26, and a dwarven city guard walks past him with a spot check of 15 would you allow the dwarf to catch the rogue because the dwarf has darkvision?
Playing is about fun, having success experiences, as a general rule of thumb I let my players get away with a whole lot more than the rules normally stipulate im sure, i just dont bother to check if i feel that it is in the spirit of the story and atmosphere and general feel of the session and campaign etc...
If it's an npc shadowdancer, I would still allow the hips both in total darkness or within range of anything remotely resembling shadows. Meeting a prestige class should be an important noteworthy encounter, and prestige classes themselves should have a certain aura about them or maybe Awe.
in summation... I would rule pc/npc shadow dancer should be able to utilize hips within range of any kind of shadow or "darkness" regardless of those watching having darkvision or not.
thats my 25cents worth :)
The power has to mean something or they've given up /alot/ to get very very little in return.
If you rule that HipS never works if the opponent has darkvision then you just removed the ability from the game. No one is going to waste their time going down an already unimpressive prestige class if you completely neuter one of the only things the class actually gives to a stealthy person.
Darkvision isn't some rare and obscure condition or effect that only a few critters scattered hither and yon possess. It is one of the most common "special abilities" among the races in general.
Regardless of how you work out Shadows and all that, the ability simply *should* trump darkvision. If it doesn't, then its utterly and completely worthless.
-S
Shadowdancer cries
"My power is so weak now!"
Dim as subjective
Seems fairly well defined to me when you actually stop and read the lighting conditions section in additional rules... that was kind of the point why light levels were definded the way they are in Pathfinder.
Dim Light: Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 [effective sight range for low light vision] feet from a torch.
The additional rules list several different light sources to use as a referance if you want to try laying out 'light' map for a tavern at night with a new moon or no windows.
Pathfinder (and D&D) terms have always been definded from a Human (Terran) normal (or average) perception of reality. That includes perception of light and small things like the effects of gravity. Defining things from the perspective of a Europa (Jupiters moon) Whale could be interesting impacts on the game, but that is not the assumption.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I never saw the Shadow Dancer as a subterranean racial class of choice or even one such a society would develop.
And yet Vhaeraun, one of the Drow gods of Faerun, lists Shadowdancers among his worshipers. Also Shar, who's portfolio includes the Underdark also lists Shadowdancers among her worshipers.
Underground and leaping about don't quite link up in my mind.
No more or less so than doing it in an urban area or in a thick forest.
The total darkness is very different then shadowy regions.
Even in the PF description of the "darkness" light condition there can be light. It lists a cloudy, moonless night. There is no "total darkness" description; there is only dim light and darkness. A cloudy, moonless night might be hard to see in but it is not totally devoid of all light.
What is darkness but one huge shadow cast over the half of the planet facing away from the sun? Night is by definition the planet's shadow.
I'd disagree that the Shadow Plane is lightless.
You seem to be contradicting yourself. You are saying that total darkness is devoid of light and therefore there is no shadow. Then you are saying that the Plane of Shadow, where darkness comes from, is not totally dark. How could any place on the Material Plane be darker than the actual Plane of Shadow?
Coincidentally, Forgotten Realms Wiki does say that the Plane of Shadow is not utterly dark. It has a constant level of light equivalent to a moonless night, which is the definition of the darkness light condition. It does not however say this light is drawn from the Material Plane or any other; rather it seems to be a constant part of the plane itself. So there may be some level of lamination there, but it is certainly not dim light, it is darkness. The plane is also described as lacking color and light.
It is deeply infused with negative energy (a.k.a. darkness) which is what IMO creates the overpowering gloom and 'dim' light of that plane.
It is still tied to the Material plane as a reflection so I would argue does draw some light (and life). Otherwise it would just be a sub-region of Negative Energy Plane.
It is not directly connected to the Material Plane in PF. It is connected to the Material Plane through the Ethereal Plane. There is nothing saying it draws light from the Material or any other source.
I also didn't see anything saying that the Positive Energy Plane, in the center of the Material Plane, was the source of light on the Material Plane. It is the source of life but doesn't say anything about providing light. Just like negative energy is the source of undeath but doesn't say anything about being the source of all darkness. The Light descriptor and the Positive Energy or Healing descriptor are two different things. Just like the Shadow descriptor and the Negative Energy descriptor are two different things.
While there is Shadow stuff that can be manipulated by various spells that draw on the Shadow Plane I would almost classify that as a Para-Element like Ice or Magma, but an interplay between Positive (Light) and Negative (Dark) energy.
Shadowstuff is not the interplay of Positive energy and Negative energy or of Light and Darkness. Shadowstuff is pure darkness, it is "the essence of the Plane of Shadow" to quote Kobold.
....
It seems both flawed and pointless IMO to build a "Prestige" class that only functions in 1 of 4 lighting conditions, the least common lighting condition of an adventurer's life, and is utterly gimp in any other condition but that one. Shadowdancers don't even have any innate way of affecting the light around them. So if what you are saying is the way it is supposed to be played then the class is near useless without custom magic items dedicated to manipulating the light around them on a massive scale. I also think it seems a little counter-thematic to have an NPC Shadowdancer lighting a torch or casting the light spell because the darkness is too dark for his powers to work. His abilities come from the plane where darkness is born. He gets Darkvision not Lowlight vision. If what you are saying is the way it was meant to be played then he should have Lowlight vision. ALL of their powers have to do with the Plane of Shadow - pure shadow/darkness.
Personally, I think saying he needs dim light is Paizo's way of saying he can't use these abilities in the middle of the day just because his enemy is casting a shadow. I don't at all think that his powers turn off when the shadows get too thick and the light condition changes to darkness. I doubt anything short of an official ruling will convince me otherwise and even then I doubt I would ever play it that way. Shadowdancer would be a pretty pathetic PrC if that was the case, especially considering they don't even have a way to affect the lighting around them, which they should if staying in 1 of the 4 light conditions was going to be such a big part of all their major abilities.
.........."ALOT"...
I feel myself agreeing and concurring with all you're writing and feel i'm coming from same perspective :)
so... OP... do you feel your question is answered properly so that you may go about the game? :D
|
We've been discussing this at length amongst our group as we are about to embark on another adventure against the Shadovar.
We've come to a completely different conclusion.
To use Stealth, one must have Cover or Concealment. In Dim Light (and below), a character can use Stealth to conceal themselves against those without Darkvision.
A player can also use Stealth in = or - Dim Light outside of an opponents Darkvision range. However, they better find some physical form of cover or concealment before the opponent moves within range or the perception DC to spot them will be 0 (notice a visible creature) with a maximum modifier of +6 (distance).
HIPS does not change any of this. If the opponent has Darkvision, the hider is still visible to them. They are still hiding in shadow that can be pierced with Darkvision regardless of how they got to hide the shadows.
Bahne - In your example, if the Thief was only using Dim Light to conceal herself, then her Stealth roll is null and void against the Dwarven guard. However, darkness isn't the only form of Concealment/Cover and the Darkvision's range is only 60ft. Flitting from corner to corner, ducking behind barrels and carts AND keeping in the shadows would be a much safer tactic against both normal and Darkvision blessed guards.
|
I have a separate question about Hide in Plain Sight from Lords of Madness.
DARKSTALKER
You have learned how to stalk and surprise creatures whose senses are very different from those of a humanoid.Benefit: When you hide, creatures with blind-sense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you, just as sighted creatures would make Spot checks to detect you. You cannot hide in plain sight unless you have that ability as a class feature. In addition, you can flank creatures that have the all-around vision special quality.
Normal: Creatures with these senses do not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice other creatures within range. Creatures with all-around vision can’t be flanked.
This might seem like a stupid question, but really? I really need to hide behind cover/concealment in order for a sightless creature to miss me if my character possess this feat? I normally ignore logic due to the nature of this game, but this strikes me as a bit more stupid than usual.
|
|
This might seem like a stupid question, but really? I really need to hide behind cover/concealment in order for a sightless creature to miss me if my character possess this feat? I normally ignore logic due to the nature of this game, but this strikes me as a bit more stupid than usual.
Man, what a messy feat! So, you can hide in the shadows from a sightless creature but you can't do this whilst they are perceiving you with their other senses...unless you have the hide in plain sight feat as well (which specifically only deals with the sense of SIGHT).
That's just too many 'suspend disbeliefs' to deal with. I guess that fact that you have to hide in the shadows before the sightless creature knows you are there makes as much sense as the rest of it!
We've been discussing this at length amongst our group as we are about to embark on another adventure against the Shadovar.
We've come to a completely different conclusion.
To use Stealth, one must have Cover or Concealment. In Dim Light (and below), a character can use Stealth to conceal themselves against those without Darkvision.
A player can also use Stealth in = or - Dim Light outside of an opponents Darkvision range. However, they better find some physical form of cover or concealment before the opponent moves within range or the perception DC to spot them will be 0 (notice a visible creature) with a maximum modifier of +6 (distance).
This is absolutely correct as far as basic Stealth is concerned.
HIPS does not change any of this. If the opponent has Darkvision, the hider is still visible to them. They are still hiding in shadow that can be pierced with Darkvision regardless of how they got to hide the shadows.
Actually it does change things. When the Shadowdancer/Assassin are not within 10' of dim light/some shadow he has only basic Stealth and all the rules for basic Stealth. However, while within 10' of dim light/some shadow the Shadowdancer's/Assassin's HiPS kicks in. It is a Supernatural ability meaning that it is magical in nature. HiPS makes a few very important changes to Stealth.
A) It is a Supernatural (Magic) ability.
B) With HiPS Stealth does not require cover or concealment. Notice: The character with HiPS doesn't actually have to have anything to hide behind, which means no need of cover. The character with HiPS also doesn't need concealment, he doesn't actually need to be IN shadow; he simply needs to be within 10' of it. So he could be standing in normal light, without concealment, and use HiPS to attempt Stealth.
...
This brings us to darkvision. Darkvision by definition doesn't allow a person or creature to see anything they couldn't see with normal vision, including magical effects. There is no arguing that HiPS isn't a magical effect, it is a Supernatural ability and the very definition of that is being magical in nature.
Next we have the fact that darkvision doesn't actually eliminate the shadows, all it does is allow the person or creature treat dim light and darkness as if it were normal light within 60' meaning they can see normally and it eliminates the 20% or 50% concealment. However, HiPS doesn't rely on concealment to hide, it is functioning via a magical tie to the shadows, which are still there whether a creature has darkvision or not.
Finally we come to the sentence where darkvision doesn't allow a creature or person to see anything they couldn't see with normal vision in normal light. I will address this point with an example. Let's say that a Shadowdancer is standing in the area of normal light. Now, the sun is setting and right now the overall lighting condition is normal light but there happens to be a very dark alley 10' away from the Shadowdancer which constitutes an area of dim light. A Dwarven guard is patrolling down the main street where the Shadowdancer is standing. The Shadowdancer has had run-ins with this particular guard and doesn't wish to be seen:
1) A character without HiPS who only has basic Stealth would not be able to hide in the street where there is normal light, without cover or being invisible. He would have to step into the alley where there is dim light to use concealment. But a Shadowdancer with HiPS can hide while standing in the area of normal light, even without cover or concealment, as long as he is within 10' of some dim light.
2) Would a creature with only normal vision be able to see a Shadowdancer who was standing in an area of normal light but had hidden using HiPS because he was within 10' of dim light? The answer is no, not without a successful Perception check.
3) Since points 1 and 2 are true and since all darkvision does is allow you to treat the dim light or darkness within 60' as if it were normal light and "does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise", darkvision should not negate the Stealth check of a character with HiPS.
...
Ranger HiPS is also completely unhindered by darkvision. Rangers don't need dim light or darkness at all. They can hide in any conditions as long as they are in their favored terrain. If a person could not see them in normal light then they should not be able to see them with darkvision either.
Bahne - In your example, if the Thief was only using Dim Light to conceal herself, then her Stealth roll is null and void against the Dwarven guard. However, darkness isn't the only form of Concealment/Cover and the Darkvision's range is only 60ft. Flitting from corner to corner, ducking behind barrels and carts AND keeping in the shadows would be a much safer tactic against both normal and Darkvision blessed guards.
You are correct here in regards to basic Stealth. However, if the thief has HiPS than his Stealth roll would not be negated by the Dwarf's darkvision. This is by virtue of the fact that darkvision doesn't allow a character to see anything they could not otherwise see and HiPS is a Supernatural ability to avoid sight while darkvision is only an Extraordinary ability to have normal sight in dim light and darkness.
I have a separate question about Hide in Plain Sight from Lords of Madness.
Firstly, it is important to understand that this feat is NOT Hide in Plain Sight. It is simply a feat that augments basic Stealth. However, it is possible to have both HiPS and this feat and have both of them augmenting your Stealth ability at the same time.
DARKSTALKER
You have learned how to stalk and surprise creatures whose senses are very different from those of a humanoid.Benefit: When you hide, creatures with blind-sense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you, just as sighted creatures would make Spot checks to detect you. You cannot hide in plain sight unless you have that ability as a class feature. In addition, you can flank creatures that have the all-around vision special quality.
Normal: Creatures with these senses do not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice other creatures within range. Creatures with all-around vision can’t be flanked.
The sentence you bolded, or something similar, is often put into Hide or Concealment related things in 3.5 and is many times a simple caveat put there to say basically: "Having this feat or ability doesn't give you Hide in Plain Sight." Meaning that you cannot hide while being observed. It also means that against most creatures you will still need cover/concealment to use Stealth.
This might seem like a stupid question, but really? I really need to hide behind cover/concealment in order for a sightless creature to miss me if my character possess this feat? I normally ignore logic due to the nature of this game, but this strikes me as a bit more stupid than usual.
It is not a stupid question, there is a LOT of confusion in regards to Stealth.
The part I bolded is really the key portion of this question. The answer is a sightless creature is blind; therefore you have the invisible condition against that creature. You don't need cover or concealment to use Stealth against a blind creature.
Creatures that have blind-sense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense have a separate ability that allows them to detect you. However, if you have an ability to defeat those extraordinary abilities, like Darkstalker, than when you use Stealth the creature is effectively blind against you again. They cannot visually detect you so you don't need cover or concealment and they cannot detect you via their special abilities unless they beat your Stealth with a Perception check.
So, how does HiPS interact with this? Well against a sightless creature you really don't need to worry about the part of HiPS that deals with not needing cover or concealment. The important part of HiPS in regards to this feat is being able to use Stealth even while being observed. A creature can observe you with more than just basic vision. Without HiPS you would have to use a Standard Action to Bluff the creature observing you, then you would have to use your Move Action to run to an unobserved location (IE: either out of range of their special ability or behind cover) at which point you could attempt Stealth at a -10 penalty. However, with HiPS and this feat you can disappear, even from a creature’s special senses, while being actively observed because HiPS specifically states you can use Stealth even while observed. It doesn't say you can use Stealth to hide even while being observed via a creature’s vision, it defeats any form of observance, and combined with the Darkstalker feat it allows you to defeat special forms of observance as well.
...
So, with HiPS and Darkstalker augmenting your Stealth ability your Stealth skill would look like this:
1) You don't need cover/concealment to hide from a blind creature's vision.
2) Darkstalker allows you to use Stealth against a creature’s special senses.
3) HiPS allows you to use Stealth against a creature even while being observed.
|
|
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I would dearly love to agree with you as I'm the player with the Thief character who, in our 3.5 to Pathfinder conversion, would be taking a Level in Shadowdancer. Let me play DM's advocate...
Actually it does change things. When the Shadowdancer/Assassin are not within 10' of dim light/some shadow he has only basic Stealth and all the rules for basic Stealth. However, while within 10' of dim light/some shadow the Shadowdancer's/Assassin's HiPS kicks in. It is a Supernatural ability meaning that it is magical in nature. HiPS makes a few very important changes to Stealth.
A) It is a Supernatural (Magic) ability.
Yes. Supernatural = magical but not spell like (not subject to spell resistance etc)
B) With HiPS Stealth does not require cover or concealment. Notice: The character with HiPS doesn't actually have to have anything to hide behind, which means no need of cover. The character with HiPS also doesn't need concealment, he doesn't actually need to be IN shadow; he simply needs to be within 10' of it. So he could be standing in normal light, without concealment, and use HiPS to attempt Stealth.
Hmmm, Let's look at this. Hide In Plain Sight is what the ability is called. I believe in the case of the Shadowdancer is does two things. It allows the Shadowdancer to hide whilst being observed (usually impossible) and hide whilst being within 10' of dim light. Yes, it says "in the open without anything to actually hide behind." It also says "She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow." We also know from the description of the Shadowdancer that they "exist in the boundary between light and darkness, where they weave together the shadows to become half-seen artists of deception."
OK. Now the crucial part. How does this supernatural ability work? Obviously there is no detailed description (or a helpful mention of Darkvision!) but we can safely assume that it uses shadow in some way to form concealment/cover to allow the Shadowdancer to hide in a circumstance and environment it would not normally be possible.
This brings us to darkvision. Darkvision by definition doesn't allow a person or creature to see anything they couldn't see with normal vision, including magical effects. There is no arguing that HiPS isn't a magical effect, it is a Supernatural ability and the very definition of that is being magical in nature.
Agreed.
Next we have the fact that darkvision doesn't actually eliminate the shadows, all it does is allow the person or creature treat dim light and darkness as if it were normal light within 60' meaning they can see normally and it eliminates the 20% or 50% concealment. However, HiPS doesn't rely on concealment to hide, it is functioning via a magical tie to the shadows, which are still there whether a creature has darkvision or not.
Sure, but as I said above, the crux is how that tie works.
Is it supernaturally using the shadows to create concealment where there is none (still normal shadows, penetrable by Darkvision), or are the shadows now supernatural and therefore impenetrable?
Let's look at the parallels in the Darkness and Deeper Darkness spells where fortunately this is spelled out. A creature with Darkvision can see into the magically created darkness of the Darkness spell. A creature cannot use Darkvision to see into the dim light or darkness of a Deeper Darkness spell. The fact that the darkness is magically created doesn't necessarily mean Darkvision doesn't work.
So, from what we have, I don't think the answer is clear cut.
Another way to look this is the power of ability.
Normal Circumstances -
Can't hide whilst being observed
Can't hide without something to directly hide in (shadows) or behind.
Creatures with Darkvision can see those hiding in shadows (perception check needed by not Stealth check allowed).
A character with the Shadowdancer HIPS ability can gain this at, what, 6th Level?
HIPS Circumstances -
Can hide whilst being observed
Can hide without something to directly hide in or behind
Can hide with shadows from a creature with Darkvision?
Sounds like a stretch.
The Ranger gets Camouflage at 12th level, and HIPS (an extension of Camo) at 17th. Big difference.
I think it's down to what your DM is going to let you get away with. In my case, no dice....and I have to say, it I was DMing if would be the same.
Man, what a messy feat! So, you can hide in the shadows from a sightless creature but you can't do this whilst they are perceiving you with their other senses...unless you have the hide in plain sight feat as well (which specifically only deals with the sense of SIGHT).
1) You don't need shadows to hide from a blind creature.
2) You can't use Stealth while being observed by any of a creature’s senses.3) HiPS doesn't say anything about dealing "only" with sight. It says you may use Stealth even while being observed. Observation can be with any of a creature’s senses. HiPS allows you to defeat any form of observation.
|
|
Man, what a messy feat! So, you can hide in the shadows from a sightless creature but you can't do this whilst they are perceiving you with their other senses...unless you have the hide in plain sight feat as well (which specifically only deals with the sense of SIGHT).1) You don't need shadows to hide from a blind creature.
2) You can't use Stealth while being observed by any of a creature’s senses.
3) HiPS doesn't say anything about dealing "only" with sight. It says you may use Stealth even while being observed. Observation can be with any of a creature’s senses. HiPS allows you to defeat any form of observation.
1) Yes, but the point being is that you can't hide from a creature with blindsight without the Darkstalker feat. However, with this feat you now need to use cover/concealment (things that impair sight) to hide from them.
2) Correct. I said "other senses" because it is blind in my example.3) If you are saying that Hide In Plain SIGHT (as in field of vision, ability to see, in view, to perceive with the eyes) works against a creature with tremor-sense then I don't think we are going to agree.
1) Yes, but the point being is that you can't hide from a creature with blindsight without the Darkstalker feat. However, with this feat you now need to use cover/concealment (things that impair sight) to hide from them.
Where is it stated that you need cover or concealment to use Stealth against a creature that is blind? You need cover/concealment to use Stealth against "vision" which is the most common form of observation for most humanoids and many animals. For instance:
a) Without Darkstalker: If a creature is blind but has blindsense then it can't visually detect you. Normally you would be able to use Stealth against a blind creature and would gain the benefits of invisibility against that creature. Blindsense means even without vision the creature can still pinpoint you, therefore the creature isn't really blind against you and you can't use Stealth against it. Also you don't gain the benefits of invisibility against the creature.
b) With Darkstalker: The creature is blind but has blindsense. It cannot visually detect you so you don't need cover/concealment to hide. The only form of detection it has against you is blindsense, which can be defeated by the Darkstalker feat. So you can hide without cover/concealment. You are back to hiding against a creature that is blind, you gain the invisibility condition against that creature.
c) With Darkstalker: The creature has normal vision and blindsense. Darkstalker allows you to use Stealth against the creature's blindsense. However, since the creature also has normal vision you must have cover/concealment to use Stealth and avoid his sight, which is completely separate from defeating his blindsense.
3) If you are saying that Hide In Plain SIGHT (as in field of vision, ability to see, in view, to perceive with the eyes) works against a creature with tremor-sense then I don't think we are going to agree.
No that is not what I am saying. I am saying HiPS allows you to hide even while being observed. That alone doesn't give you the ability to hide from tremor-sense. But combined with Darkstalker, which does allow you to hide from tremor-sense, it makes you capable of using Stealth even while being observed by a creature's tremor-sense.
I have noticed, as in the bolded section of your quote, many of your arguments are based primarily around the fluff and flavor text of things, not on the actual rules and mechanics. Hide in Plain Sight is just a name, it is flavor text and a simple description of what the ability allows you to do. The actual MECHANIC or RULE is: A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow. It does not say, "can use Stealth even while being watched," it says, "even while being observed," which includes all senses as described in the Stealth skill: If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth.
|
|
b) With Darkstalker: The creature is blind but has blindsense. It cannot visually detect you so you don't need cover/concealment to hide. The only form of detection it has against you is blindsense, which can be defeated by the Darkstalker feat. So you can hide without cover/concealment. You are back to hiding against a creature that is blind, you gain the invisibility condition against that creature.
I'm going to agree with this for the simple reason the hide in plain sight is not Hide In Plain Sight in Darkstalker the description.
I have noticed, as in the bolded section of your quote, many of your arguments are based primarily around the fluff and flavor text of things, not on the actual rules and mechanics. Hide in Plain Sight is just a name, it is flavor text and a simple description of what the ability allows you to do. The actual MECHANIC or RULE is: A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow. It does not say, "can use Stealth even while being watched," it says, "even while being observed," which includes all senses as described in the Stealth skill: If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth.
Because the mechanic is poorly written, I think we need to look at the context of the rule (including it's name) as well as the power/level. If you can hide against any form of observation, it's a very powerful feat!
I'm going to ask for some (Pathfinder) clarification.
I'm going to agree with this for the simple reason the hide in plain sight is not Hide In Plain Sight in Darkstalker the description.b) With Darkstalker: The creature is blind but has blindsense. It cannot visually detect you so you don't need cover/concealment to hide. The only form of detection it has against you is blindsense, which can be defeated by the Darkstalker feat. So you can hide without cover/concealment. You are back to hiding against a creature that is blind, you gain the invisibility condition against that creature.
Darkstalker alone doesn't constitute HiPS either. Even in my scenario "b" the character with the feat must still succeed at Stealth before the creature becomes aware of him with his tremor-sense. After the creature is aware and observing he cannot use Stealth without distracting the creature and getting to an unobserved location. However if the character had both Darkstalker and HiPS I believe that he could hide from the creature's tremor-sense even while observed because that is what HiPS plainly states you can do.
Like I said above: "HiPS allows you to hide even while being observed. That alone doesn't give you the ability to hide from tremor-sense. But combined with Darkstalker, which does allow you to hide from tremor-sense, it makes you capable of using Stealth even while being observed by a creature's tremor-sense."
Because the mechanic is poorly written, I think we need to look at the context of the rule (including it's name) as well as the power/level. If you can hide against any form of observation, it's a very powerful feat!
Actual mechanics always trump flavor text. And I disagree that it is poorly written. It is simple and straight forward, what makes it complicated is when you add things to the description. The mechanic is no different than Ranger HiPS there are only two differances: 1) Ranger HiPS is (EX) while Shadowdancer and Assassin HiPS is (SU), 2) The catalyst for Ranger HiPS is Favored Terrain while the catalyst for Shadowdancer and Assassin HiPS is their proximity to shadowy areas.
If you want to look at power/level then compare it to comparable effects. First let’s compare it to Ranger and Assassin HiPS:
Shadowdancer HiPS (SU) can be gained as early as 6th level. A character must specialize, specifically taking three feats just to qualify for this PrC as well as 2 skill points in an otherwise useless skill. This form of HiPS only functions while within 10' of Dim Light (possibly dim light or darker?).
1) Ranger HiPS takes much longer to get but the Ranger doesn't have to specialize to get it. HiPS is in his natural class progression. He gets it at level 17, but it is also by far the most powerful form of HiPS. It is (EX) so cannot be undone by Antimagic Field. It also functions in three major terrain settings by the time he gets it and a fourth upon reaching his next level, if picked wisely the ranger could have HiPS in almost every terrain in a campaign for his entire career with that ability.
2) Assassin HiPS can be achieved as soon as level 13. It also requires specialization and taking levels in a PrC. It is a far more powerful form of HiPS than the Shadowdancers due to not needing actual dim light but rather only the presence of some shadow. It works any time you are within 10' of shadow. This is still not as powerful as Ranger HiPS IMO because it can be nullified by Antimagic Field. However shadow can be found near anywhere so it is possibly the most versatile form of HiPS.
Now let's compare it to similar spell effects. The Shadowdancer uses many shadow spells which are a sub school of illusion and IMO the closest spell effect to HiPS is invisibility.
1) Invisibility is a 2nd level spell, attainable at 3rd level. This is arguably far less powerful than HiPS however due to a caster's limited spell slots.
2) Greater Invisibility is a 4th level spell, attainable at 7th level. This is far more powerful than HiPS but arguably less reliable due to the abundance of things like See Invisible and Dispel.
So, the Shadowdancer's HiPS which is very similar to an illusory invisibility effect is very much in line with the power/level of both Invisibility and Greater Invisibility. Both other forms of actual HiPS take far longer to achieve but are both also far more versatile and powerful than the Shadowdancer's version of HiPS.
...
As for working against any form of observation, that is exactly what it says so that is what it does. It doesn't say "can use Stealth while in his opponent's sight" it says "even while being observed." The Stealth description defines observation as being observed by any of a creature's senses (typically sight). However, as I said before, just because you can hide while being observed by any sense doesn't automatically mean you can conceal yourself from "special senses." In order to use Stealth against "special senses" you must have the Darkstalker feat, and when combined with HiPS this allows you to disappear from sight even while being observed, whether by normal sight or special senses.
I'm going to ask for some (Pathfinder) clarification.
If you get any let me know. I am probably going to post a few of these questions on the Ask Nethys thread; although it isn't official he is a pretty impressive rules guru.
I would have replied to this post sooner but it is long and required quite a bit of time.
Yes. Supernatural = magical but not spell like (not subject to spell resistance etc)
I am not sure what your point is here. Obviously it is not a spell like ability. Even if it was a spell like ability SR wouldn't have any bearing on using it because the target of the effect is personal. Being Supernatural doesn't make it any less magical than if it were Spell Like.
Hmmm, Let's look at this. Hide In Plain Sight is what the ability is called. I believe in the case of the Shadowdancer is does two things. It allows the Shadowdancer to hide whilst being observed (usually impossible) and hide whilst being within 10' of dim light. Yes, it says "in the open without anything to actually hide behind." It also says "She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow." We also know from the description of the Shadowdancer that they "exist in the boundary between light and darkness, where they weave together the shadows to become half-seen artists of deception."
OK. Now the crucial part. How does this supernatural ability work? Obviously there is no detailed description (or a helpful mention of Darkvision!) but we can safely assume that it uses shadow in some way to form concealment/cover to allow the Shadowdancer to hide in a circumstance and environment it would not normally be possible.
The part about not needing anything to hide behind means they don't need cover.
The part about only needing to be within 10' of dim light means they are not relying on being IN the concealment of the shadow, but rather are empowered by their proximity to the element of shadow to perform an illusory feat of stealth.
That part about weaving shadows is again an argument based on fluff. It doesn't change the actual mechanic of the ability at all.
As for assuming that the Shadowdancer swirls shadow around himself and gains concealment from 10' away, I would say that would make him far more noticeable not less so. I don't think it is safe to assume he is relying on concealment when concealment isn't mentioned in any way in the description of HiPS. The description doesn't say "within 10' of concealment" it says "within 10' of dim light" it is his supernatural tie to the element of shadow that allows him to perform this illusory ability; not concealment.
This brings us to darkvision. Darkvision by definition doesn't allow a person or creature to see anything they couldn't see with normal vision, including magical effects. There is no arguing that HiPS isn't a magical effect, it is a Supernatural ability and the very definition of that is being magical in nature.
Agreed.
Now with that agreement in mind:
Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black-and-white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.
I will explain why I feel a Shadowdancer's HiPS is largely an illusion further down. For now, you agree that HiPS is magical and that Darkvision doesn't allow you to see magical effects.
Is it supernaturally using the shadows to create concealment where there is none (still normal shadows, penetrable by Darkvision), or are the shadows now supernatural and therefore impenetrable?
IMO, neither. The ability makes absolutely zero mention of either concealment or supernatural darkness. The ability also makes no mention of drawing the shadows to where the Shadowdancer is standing. It just says that within 10' of dim light he is capable of using Stealth to disappear.
Let's look at the parallels in the Darkness and Deeper Darkness spells where fortunately this is spelled out. A creature with Darkvision can see into the magically created darkness of the Darkness spell. A creature cannot use Darkvision to see into the dim light or darkness of a Deeper Darkness spell. The fact that the darkness is magically created doesn't necessarily mean Darkvision doesn't work.
If you want to compare the Shadowdancer's HiPS to spell effects that makes sense to me, but I think you are comparing them to the wrong spells/school of magic. Darkness and Deeper Darkness are Evocation [Darkness] spells. There is actually nothing in the Shadowdancer description or ability list that would suggest a comparison to this school or sub-school of magic.
As you, and others, have pointed out the Shadowdancers exist between light and darkness in the shadow. As far as spells are concerned there is a big differance between the [Shadow] and [Darkness] sub-schools. Shadow is a sub-school of Illusion while Darkness is a sub-school of Evocation. Of the two Illusion [Shadow] fits far better than Evocation [Darkness] IMO. In addition the Shadowdancer gains three Spell Like abilities in his class progression:
1) Shadow Illusion (SP): Allowing him to use the Silent Image, an Illusion [Figment] spell.
2) Shadow Call (SP): Allowing him to use Shadow Conjuration, an Illusion [Shadow] spell.
3) Shadow Power (SP): Allowing him to use Shadow Evocation, an Illusion [Shadow] spell.
So, between the flavor text you have been quoting and the fact that all their Spell Like abilities are Illusions (mostly from the Shadow sub-school) I think that the Illusion [Shadow] school is a far better comparison to the Shadowdancers HiPS ability than the Evocation [Darkness] school. This is why I say that HiPS is an illusory effect that the Shadowdancer is empowered to perform based on his proximity to the element of shadow. Darkvision specifically states that it doesn't see through illusions. While HiPS doesn't state that it is an illusory effect I think the Shadowdancer's other magical abilities lean toward that. Also, IMO, HiPS is far more akin to the Invisibility spell (again an illusion) than it is to the Darkness spell.
Another way to look this is the power of ability.
HIPS Circumstances -
Can hide whilst being observed
Can hide without something to directly hide in or behind
Can hide with shadows from a creature with Darkvision?Sounds like a stretch.
Turn this argument around and look at the power you are granting to Darkvision. You are saying that a naturally developed (EX) ability, that two base races (not to mention numerous monsters) have as a basic racial abilities at level 1, trumps a (SU) ability that a PC must dedicate himself to attaining (either by spending 3 feats, a few useless skill points, and a level in the Shadowdancer PrC; or by spending a few skill points, murdering someone, and spending 8 levels the Assassin PrC). I think you are stretching the power of the Darkvision ability.
The Ranger gets Camouflage at 12th level, and HIPS (an extension of Camo) at 17th. Big difference.
If power/level is what you are using to judge the effects of this ability:
Darkvision = Level 1 natural (EX) ability.
Shadowdancer HiPS = Level 6 or greater specialized (SU) ability.
Assassin HiPS = Level 13 or greater specialized (SU) ability.
Ranger HiPS = Level 17 naturally trained (EX) ability.
All three forms of HiPS trump Darkvision in power/level and difficulty to attain. Really even if you don't choose a race that has Darkvision the ability can be acquired by anyone with 5k GP to pay a Wizard for a permanency spell. There is just no argument IMO for darkvision trumping Shadowdancer, Assassin, or Ranger HiPS.
|
|
normal dark vision already trumps 2nd level spells with the darkness descriptor. the comparison to evocation[darkness] spells is clear and necessary because the conditions of magically conjured darkness and its impact on dark vision are clearly stated in the spell descriptions. giving you a basis to compare how much magical darkness Dark vision will let a creature perceive through. it takes a 3rd level spell: deeper darkness, to confound someone with dark vision. Dark vision doesn't trump illusions, so an invisible creature hiding in darkness would still be invisible. but hide in plain sight doesn't make you invisible.
calling a Shadowdancer HiPS ability illusionary is a bit of a stretch, just because three of its powers coincide with the illusion school that all of their powers are tied to that. but they also have conjuration like effects ( call shadow and shadow jump )
Hide in plain sight is a nice supernatural ability, but its also what shadowdancers gain at 1st level. its not until 3rd level that they start gaining access to spell like abilities that mimic illusion spells.
Hide in plain sight is a great ability to use against creatures with normal sight and low-light vision. but i think its nullified by creatures with dark vision, blind sight, blind sense ( and scent to the extent of targeting the hidden creature's square ). Blind sense and blind sight are extraordinary abilities, and they trump invisibility. the argument that just because something is a supernatural ability and something is an extraordinary ability, doesn't matter. they just classify the type of ability in regard to other game content.
In short. if you wanna hide from my Dwarf, drink a potion of invisibility like every other SoB.
Hide in plain sight is a nice supernatural ability, but its also what shadowdancers gain at 1st level. its not until 3rd level that they start gaining access to spell like abilities that mimic illusion spells.
Yes, Shadowdancers gain the ability at 1st level, but lets not forget that a creature must possess at least 6 HD/class levels to gain that ability. Hey, what do you know, that almost puts it at the same power level that you'd gain 3rd level spells like Deeper Darkness. Saying that they just "gain [it] at 1st level" is misleading.
Hide in plain sight is a great ability to use against creatures with normal sight and low-light vision. but i think its nullified by creatures with dark vision, blind sight, blind sense ( and scent to the extent of targeting the hidden creature's square ). Blind sense and blind sight are extraordinary abilities, and they trump invisibility. the argument that just because something is a supernatural ability and something is an extraordinary ability, doesn't matter. they just classify the type of ability in regard to other game content.
Except that you're ignoring the very important piece of text in the Darkvision ability that says "It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise," which seems pretty self-evident to me.
In short. if you wanna hide from my Dwarf, drink a potion of invisibility like every other SoB.
Why don't we leave ancestry out of it, hmm?
|
|
normal dark vision already trumps 2nd level spells with the darkness descriptor. the comparison to evocation[darkness] spells is clear and necessary because the conditions of magically conjured darkness and its impact on dark vision are clearly stated in the spell descriptions. giving you a basis to compare how much magical darkness Dark vision will let a creature perceive through. it takes a 3rd level spell: deeper darkness, to confound someone with dark vision. Dark vision doesn't trump illusions, so an invisible creature hiding in darkness would still be invisible. but hide in plain sight doesn't make you invisible.
I'm with you, and I'd like to take this opportunity to correct an error I made on the Deeper Darkness spell.
Only the supernatural darkness created by Deeper Darkness cannot be penetrated by Darkvision. The Pathfinder rules discuss light in a series of discrete steps:
bright light
normal light
dim light (20% miss)
darkness (50% miss, need darkvision or other senses)
supernatural darkness (no darkvision)
Deeper Darkness takes the ambient light down 2 steps. So, dim light and darkness become supernatural darkness. That doesn't mean that if Deeper Darkness is cast in bright light that the resulting dim light cannot be penetrated by Darkvision.
I think this is an important distinction when discussing HIPS. Whilst it's a supernatural ability is doesn't create supernatural darkness.