I recently included a Cavalier and an Alchemist in an online game I run every week. The PCs are level 8 and are a Kobold Fighter who uses crossbows, an Elven Abjurant Champion, and a Halfling Rogue/Bard/Pathfinder Chronicler.
Opponent number 1 was the Cavalier, an elite goblin guard who was at level 8. The main thing learned from this combat is that mounted combat is REALLY good. The party got in a stealth attack and a free full round of combat while the Cavalier called his mount over and got on, and yet he still nearly killed the Kobold in just two attacks. Spirited Charge + Lance led to some devastatingly huge amounts of damage, and the Cavalier's Charge ability made this an even better choice.
Conclusion: The Cavalier works well for what it is, which is a single-target combatant and a team-supporter. I didn't get to try out the latter (although I have a multi-Cavalier encounter planned for the future) but it excels at the former. That Kobold was built to tank and I still nearly wiped him out with what should have been an average encounter by CR.
Changes: The mounted combat stuff is nice, and the team-support stuff is nice, but the two don't really go together well. Mounted combat puts you moving around the battlefield a lot trying to end your turns out of range, which keeps all of the team-based stuff from helping anyone. I think the Cavalier's Charge and the Mount special abilities would be better designed as feats (so the Fighter can get them too) and the Expert Trainer ability should be one half of an option that could also get you Diplomacy bonuses. In short, mounted knights are cool, but the class has a lot of varied potential beyond that and I'd like to see them be less shoe-horned. Really, the problem is less that Cavalier's have to be mounted, because with only three abilities that's certainly not true, and more that if you want to play mounted combat there's no reason to play anything else.
Opponent number 2 was a Goblin Alchemist at level 10. The party employed very good tactics (closing in quickly so he could use bombs effectively, which he was built for, and surrounding him so he couldn't avoid attacks of opportunity) so this wasn't quite the challenging encounter I had expected, but it was still fairly tough. He started out with Greater Invisibility, which meant only the Abjurant Champion could see him, and a mutagen, which put him on par with the Abjurant Champion for combat. The Rogue had taken Blind Fight, which was what kept this fight from going on a lot longer.
Conclusion: Attacks of Opportunity are the Alchemist's bane. Unlike spellcasters, he has no defensive casting equivalent (although similarly, no failure chance). Bombs are really good, but also easily circumvented. So it's a situational class - really good with the right setup but really screwed with the wrong setup. The Alchemist seems a lot like an attempt at a warrior-mage hybrid. My one HUGE complaint is outlined below:
Changes: The Alchemist plays just like a spellcaster who uses different rules to do the same thing, and it brings back bad memories of everything that was wrong about psionics but with none of the benefits. What's more, he can't actually do much of anything different with the actual rules for alchemy except do it faster. Basically bombs, mutagens, and extracts all feel wrong, while all the other abilities feel perfect. My suggestion: Extracts should just be a normal spell list (I could see it being retweaked a bit to make an arcane 4-spell-level class, but that's a different project). Make the potion-based discoveries into class features, and let Alchemists make potions out of spells up to fourth level. Finally, make a part of the book be about better alchemical items (including mutagens and bombs) and give the Alchemist a discount on making them, maybe making the more expensive items require a certain Alchemist level to create.
The Alchemist plays just like a spellcaster who uses different rules to do the same thing, and it brings back bad memories of everything that was wrong about psionics but with none of the benefits.
I have to disagree. The Alchemist have loads of advantages when compared to a more traditional caster.
I wrote a post about it in the thread called "Final thoughts on the Alchemist."What I still don't get is why some people would rather see the Alchemist becoming just another caster. Don't we have enough of those?
But I am all for giving the Alchemist some alternatives with Alchemical items, though!
The Alchemist plays just like a spellcaster who uses different rules to do the same thing, and it brings back bad memories of everything that was wrong about psionics but with none of the benefits.I have to disagree. The Alchemist have loads of advantages when compared to a more traditional caster.
I wrote a post about it in the thread called "Final thoughts on the Alchemist."What I still don't get is why some people would rather see the Alchemist becoming just another caster. Don't we have enough of those?
But I am all for giving the Alchemist some alternatives with Alchemical items, though!
That was a good thread, it's a shame it got derailed by discussion of a typo. My counterpoint:
If the class was preserved with the exact same mechanics and instead presented as calling on the power of ancestral spirits, or bargaining with demons, or even making magical balloon animals, I wouldn't have any problems with it. The problem is that it's an alchemist. Alchemy has been in the system for a very long time, and it already has rules to go with it. The Alchemist doesn't use those rules, and in fact departs so far from them that he has to be given Brew Potion through a class ability because he otherwise wouldn't qualify for it. Instead he gets three entirely separate abilities that are entirely unconnected from the current alchemy system.And yes, we definitely have more than enough "just another casters". The problem is that the Alchemist isn't a good choice for an alternative. If an Alchemist is going to exist, it needs to be a standard caster because alchemy is already built on standard magic.
Thank you.
When you say that Alchemy has been a part of the system for a very long time, what are you referring to? I am guessing Alchemical items, poisons and potions.
With the exception of Potions, all of the "Alchemical items" can be crafted by a person that has no magical affinity whatsoever.
Unless there is something I'm missing here (And since I'm quite new to pathfinder, having just bounced here from dnd a few months ago it's possible.) I'd say what the system really needs is some new rules regarding Alchemy.
If you're bothered by the fact that Alchemists get a Brew potion feat separately and you feel that it's tacked on then remember that it was a temporary solution. Paizo will probably bake it into the class now during the year.
Come to think of it, the Alchemist is pretty much a caster right now, only difference is that he's using extracts as an alternative medium. He uses the same spells and caster levels as the others do after all...
Potions were what I was referring to. And you're right, entirely new rules for alchemy would be awesome. The Alchemist was really the first thing to establish magic potions and alchemy as being connected, so it would be theoretically possible to just say that potions are entirely magical and create a new system for alchemy. I REALLY doubt that would happen, but we can still hope.
I think that may be at the core of why I don't like the Alchemist - when I saw the name show up as a preview class I hoped it would signify an expansion of alchemy, but instead it's just a disguised spellcasting class and several of its abilities are worded to specifically prevent them from interacting with the alchemy rules.
One thing that happened in that playtest fight was that the Rogue took out a flask of Alchemist's Fire that the Alchemist in question had made previously and threw it, hoping it was the same as one of the Alchemist's bombs. I remember thinking at that point that there wasn't a good in-character reason it shouldn't have been a bomb, and that disappointed me.
First things first:
Potions were what I was referring to. And you're right, entirely new rules for alchemy would be awesome. The Alchemist was really the first thing to establish magic potions and alchemy as being connected, so it would be theoretically possible to just say that potions are entirely magical and create a new system for alchemy. I REALLY doubt that would happen, but we can still hope.
+10
That really would be awesome and not really that hard to do. There is a lot of untapped potential there and it should be put to good use.One thing that happened in that playtest fight was that the Rogue took out a flask of Alchemist's Fire that the Alchemist in question had made previously and threw it, hoping it was the same as one of the Alchemist's bombs. I remember thinking at that point that there wasn't a good in-character reason it shouldn't have been a bomb, and that disappointed me.
You know, it might be something that could be added in the final product. Alchemist have a ridiculously high modifier to craft Alchemical items so why shouldn't they be able to craft some powerful bombs for their friends?
After all there are necklace of fireballs that can be used by non magic users. That would make for an awesome addition...