|
What happens if a group fails to complete a scenario? And what exactly deas "completing" a scenario mean?
If, at a convention, a game lasts more than 5 hours, the GM should end it, but how do you decide if it has been completed enough for the players to get XP? Do they get PAs and loot?
And what if they just don't succeed on their quest? If the bad guy wins, but they survive? Do they get XP?
And what if they are all killed or thrown to jail in he first encounter, do the get to try and play the scenario again at a later time, or have they blown their chance?
And how do I report a failed scenario, and should I fill out a chronicle sheet?
|
What happens if a group fails to complete a scenario? And what exactly deas "completing" a scenario mean?
This has been a constant source of dissatisfaction for me. There are no in-game consequences for failing to complete a scenario, aside from the loss of gold or XP if not enough encounters were won. Completing a scenario means succeeding in the mission that was assigned by the Society in the briefing at the beginning. It is very possible to win all the combat encounters yet still fail the mission.
If, at a convention, a game lasts more than 5 hours, the GM should end it, but how do you decide if it has been completed enough for the players to get XP?
It is the GM's judgment whether or not the mission was completed if the players run out of time. The GM must base this upon the resources remaining and the capability of the PCs. It's really a case by case thing. I have never found where it is written but Josh has clarified on the messageboard that as long as three encounters are played in a scenario, the XP is earned--regardless of mission success or failure.
Do they get PAs and loot?
Provided the PCs are not captured or killed, they can walk away with their loot and their PA points accumulated to that point.
And what if they just don't succeed on their quest? If the bad guy wins, but they survive? Do they get XP?
Yes, see above. Even if the bad guy wins, as long as they completed three encounters they earn their XP.
And what if they are all killed or thrown to jail in he first encounter, do the get to try and play the scenario again at a later time, or have they blown their chance?
They have blown their chance. You may only attempt a scenario once.
And how do I report a failed scenario, and should I fill out a chronicle sheet?
You report a failed scenario just as you would a successful one. The player should receive a Chronicle sheet so they have a tangible record they played that scenario. Cross off/mark down whatever they lost and note the PC's death if applicable. A lot of players have bad memories. If you ask the typical player, "Do you want to play Cassomir's Locker?", they will ask you what the scenario number is and reference their stack of Chronicles. If they don't see #30 in their stack they will assume they have not played it and accidentally break the rules by playing it a second time. At some point they will realize that the scenario sounds familiar and they'll be stuck in a moral quandary.
Let me give you a perfect example that just happened yesterday. I will leave out some details so as not to spoil things. I was not the GM at this table but I got called over to decide the consequences. It was a four player table with three new PCs and a 4th level ranger. They had no cleric but they were playing Tier 1-2 so I thought they'd do OK. I told the GM the ranger could buy a wand of cure light wounds and they should be good to go. I walked away and the ranger's player refused to buy the wand. He had almost 5,000gp saved up and didn't think about anyone but himself. The other new PCs had no gold to spend for any kind of healing. One of them could have made a cleric but they apparently didn't think of that. They got through two encounters before they hit the wall, an evil cleric and her undead servant. She whipped them pretty bad despite the GM trying to mitigate as best she could. It was one of those doomed tables that couldn't roll higher than a 7 on their d20, made the worst decisions and didn't cooperate.
I was called over when they were all dead or dying. I conferred with the GM and she suggested that since they were beaten by slavers, maybe they could be stabilized and sold into slavery instead of all killed. I was good with this, but I ruled that all their loot and equipment were lost. The Pathfinder Society rescued them from slavery and gave them enough gold to re-equip as a new PC would (150gp) so at least they wouldn't start the next game naked. Some of them got a PA point out of it, but since they didn't complete 3 encounters they got no XP. They had their lives though. The dead player had to make a new PC. The two newbies who survived were no worse than when they started. They couldn't play the scenario again however. The player who lost the most was the one with 5,000gp saved up who refused to buy the wand of cure light wounds, or any healing for his friends for that matter. He now has a 4th level ranger with 150gp in equipment. It is harsh, but I thought it was poetic justice for his lack of teamwork. His PC could be dead and he could be starting all over again too.
That may have been more explanation than you asked for, but I think it illustrates the questions you asked above.
|
You report a failed scenario just as you would a successful one. The player should receive a Chronicle sheet so they have a tangible record they played that scenario. Cross off/mark down whatever they lost and note the PC's death if applicable. A lot of players have bad memories. If you ask the typical player, "Do you want to play Cassomir's Locker?", they will ask you what the scenario number is and reference their stack of Chronicles. If they don't see #30 in their stack they will assume they have not played it and accidentally break the rules by playing it a second time. At some point they will realize that the scenario sounds familiar and they'll be stuck in a moral quandary.
Let me give you a perfect example that just happened yesterday. I will leave out some details so as not to spoil things. I was not the GM at this table but I got called over to decide the consequences. It was a four player table with three new PCs and a 4th level ranger. They had no cleric but they were playing Tier 1-2 so I thought they'd do OK. I told the GM the ranger could buy a wand of cure light wounds and they should be good to go. I walked away and the ranger's player refused to buy the wand. He had almost 5,000gp saved up and didn't think about anyone but himself. The other new PCs had no gold to spend for any kind of healing. One of them could have made a cleric but they apparently didn't think of that. They got through two encounters before they hit the wall, an evil cleric and her undead servant. She whipped them pretty bad despite the GM trying to mitigate as best she could. It was one of those doomed tables that couldn't roll higher than a 7 on their d20, made the worst decisions and didn't cooperate.
I was called over when they were all dead or dying. I conferred with the GM and she suggested that since they were beaten by slavers, maybe they could be stabilized and sold into slavery instead of all killed. I was good with this, but I ruled that all their loot and equipment were lost. The Pathfinder Society rescued them from slavery and gave them enough gold to re-equip as a new PC would (150gp) so at least they wouldn't start the next game naked. Some of them got a PA point out of it, but since they didn't complete 3 encounters they got no XP. They had their lives though. The dead player had to make a new PC. The two newbies who survived were no worse than when they started. They couldn't play the scenario again however. The player who lost the most was the one with 5,000gp saved up who refused to buy the wand of cure light wounds, or any healing for his friends for that matter. He now has a 4th level ranger with 150gp in equipment. It is harsh, but I thought it was poetic justice for his lack of teamwork. His PC could be dead and he could be starting all over again too.
Without giving to much away, sounds like Shipyard Rats. Brutal on 1st level parties. If you get through it, you earned it.
|
|
I would actually like to see Society rules covering slavery so that in situations like this (I’ve had it happen twice myself in games I ran) there’s some kind of resolution. That way it doesn’t feel like you’re just waving a wand and saying all’s forgotten. One possible solution would be to incorporate form of flaw system that the GM for the scenario can issue. An example would be:
Mark of Slavery – Whether escaped or given free reign by their owner the character has been visibly branded a slave. Because the character is considered a slave in the eyes of society he or she suffers a -2 penalty to all social checks when dealing with any NPC with a social status above poor.
I’d then have ways in the game that allows the mark to be removed. Perhaps allow them to be set free by an official or officer in the module (who would have the right) or assign a gold price for freedom so they could buy their freedom.
The same could be done with imprisonment.
|
Without giving to much away, sounds like Shipyard Rats. Brutal on 1st level parties. If you get through it, you earned it.
I've heard this too, and I understand why many people feel this way, but our group of all level 1 characters (6 players) blew through the adventure with barely any damage whatsoever. There's a VERY easy solution to give yourself the upper hand for the situation you're talking about; it just requires you realizing what it is before you put yourself in the bad situation.
Sorry for the treadjack.
|
|
I ruled that all their loot and equipment were lost.Wow. That's a fate worse than just dying for the 4th-level PC.
-Matt
For many players, that character is dead. For others, it's a chance to play the underdog and pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
I had a character die three times after reaching 4th level in Living Greyhawk (I hit 4th level and died, raised at 3rd, hit 4th and died again, yadda-yadda-yadda). I kept playing the character and didn't give up. But I am a glutton for punishment too.
I can see myself potentially developing a Flaw system akin to a negative feat that GMs could impose on players who fail a scenario by getting captured (as opposed to failing by death). We are slowly putting some penalties into play on a regional level so that there are consequences in the region in which a scenario took place for failing a scenario (see the upcoming Pallid Plague), but I can't see punishing PCs for failure just a general rule. The Pathfinder Society (on Golarion) sends Pathfinders on all kinds of dangerous missions and they don't expect or even anticipate 100% success. Having the Society itself punish the players seems like a good way to encourage Pathfinders to quit (both in the real world and on Golarion).
As for failing faction missions, I've debated imposing negative prestige penalties but haven't figured out a way yet to impose it without completely derailing the prestige curve for each player. It makes far more sense to me that a single faction might be angered by PCs who fail missions than it does the Society as a whole being angered at PCs for failing the over-arching story of the scenario.
Good feedback. Food for thought.
|
As for failing faction missions, I've debated imposing negative prestige penalties but haven't figured out a way yet to impose it without completely derailing the prestige curve for each player. It makes far more sense to me that a single faction might be angered by PCs who fail missions than it does the Society as a whole being angered at PCs for failing the over-arching story of the scenario.
I'd start with what makes sense in real life. If you're working for a company, and getting progressively better advantages from working with them (i.e. executive privileges, etc); in all likeliness, they would temporarily tone them down if you did some bad work. Here's a possible example:
1. Give "failure conditions" along with the faction missions. For example, an Andoran faction mission might be:
Win - Rescue two slaves that So-and-so has under his control. Make sure they return to town safely, and blah blah blah...
Fail - Let the slaves die, or take them as slaves yourself.
2. Should a PC fulfill the "failure conditions", they would be in "bad standing" with their Faction. A PC in "bad standing" would have a "Maximum Item Cost" one rank lower by PA as per the table in the Society Guide. Also, any PA Cost for spellcasting services (etc.) would increase by 1. These penalties are temporary, the PC would still keep his current PA (and thus not throw off the prestige curve), and could still earn PA normally by completing missions.
3. The PC would retain its "bad standing" until the successful completion of a full Faction mission (All "win" conditions for all objectives in mission are met). At that time, the PC would have its normal "Maximum Item Cost" determined by PA, and could spend PA on anything in table 11.1 at the prices listed.
Of course, just one of the many possibilities :D
Director of Brand Strategy
|
We recently failed a mission, in which we lost the item we where suppose to return but kept our lives and our equipment (House game #20). WE/I learned more from this mission than the 20+ I had succeeded in previous. So the lose of XP I don't realistically agree with, but I do agree there has to be some kind of penalty. (1/2 or no money) BUT most people get more experiences from their failures that from their success, if they live.
An XP penalty actually puts you ahead of the wealth curve, since it allows you to play more than 33 scenarios before you stop earning XP and thus, acquire more than 33 scenarios worth of wealth. As it currently stands, non-XP generating interactives provide additional wealth, but these are a bonus. Giving people an unintended wealth boost by denying them XP for a failed scenario could be motivation for players to fail both to get higher wealth and to play a PC more than the maximum number of times.
I think the way it was handled in King Xeros of Old Azlant was a decent way of handling it:
I had come to the understanding that you could still earn gold and PA after reaching lvl 12, just no more xp. Am I mistaken?
In another thread Joshua said that once a character reaches level 12, the only thing you can do is play in one level 12 story arc, generally 4 scenarios long, and then the character is retired from PFS play. I would assume that during that level 12 arc that you will still get the normal gold and PA, just no XP. It is also a forced retirement and you are not allowed to play the character in any other level 12 scenarios after the one arc is finished.
Er, no, not really. A GM cannot arbitrarily impose penalties on PCs who fail their missions, just like a GM cannot arbitrarily increase the amount of gold the PCs receive or add extra items to the chronicle sheet.
This discussion is food for thought. I'd never impose an XP penalty for the reasons Mark mentioned above. I've been assisting Sean on some Faction Guide stuff (and writing some of the new factions) and I'm intrigued by an idea on that book about how to punish PCs PA-wise, so I'm considering other avenues as well.
Good feedback.
|
|
Er, no, not really. A GM cannot arbitrarily impose penalties on PCs who fail their missions, just like a GM cannot arbitrarily increase the amount of gold the PCs receive or add extra items to the chronicle sheet.
This discussion is food for thought. I'd never impose an XP penalty for the reasons Mark mentioned above. I've been assisting Sean on some Faction Guide stuff (and writing some of the new factions) and I'm intrigued by an idea on that book about how to punish PCs PA-wise, so I'm considering other avenues as well.
Good feedback.
NEW Factions!!!!!!
Ok, seriously jazzed....
Er, new factions for the Faction Guide ... not for Pathfinder Society. ;-)
|
|
If a group fails a scenario that the GM is eating, does the GM still get XP, AP and gold for the scenario?
Yes, the GM gets the GM Reward for eating the scenario reagardless. If the GM did not get the Reward if the PCs failed the scenario it would be a disincentive for the GM to run the scenario as written if it were a particularly difficult one, e.g. anything written by Josh ;-).
Yup.
|
Without giving to much away, sounds like Shipyard Rats. Brutal on 1st level parties. If you get through it, you earned it.
Nothing has changed regarding this topic in recent months, right? Three ecnounters = award XP, even if the scenario remains incomplete and/or failed?
Page 22 of the Guide says:
In any scenario, so long as a PC played three encounters,
they’re awarded their XP for that scenario. This assumes
they’re brought back to life—PCs who decide not to
return to the realm of the living are awarded no XP for
that scenario. Finally, note that a 1st-level PC can be
returned to life in Pathfinder Society.
|
|
I know my group realized that the final encounter in an PFS adventure would have been suicide because of our party makeup and did not finish the last encounter. We got our experience (we crushed the previous five encounters) but it did feel strange to not finish the adventure. The GM felt cheated for whatever reason and wishes he could have punished our PCs but he had no recourse. Just because you're heros does not mean your all stupid.
I know my group realized that the final encounter in an PFS adventure would have been suicide because of our party makeup and did not finish the last encounter. We got our experience (we crushed the previous five encounters) but it did feel strange to not finish the adventure. The GM felt cheated for whatever reason and wishes he could have punished our PCs but he had no recourse. Just because you're heros does not mean your all stupid.
Well, in a way your characters were punished because you did not have acceess to any of the magic items/boons that could be found/earned from completing the final encounter. So even though they got the XP, they still lost out on probably some good stuff, as well as the gold they would have earned from that stuff. It could also effect the PA if something required to complete a faction mission required something from an encounter not completed or if any PA was even earnable without completing the final encounter.
|
Page 22 of the Guide says:
In any scenario, so long as a PC played three encounters,
they’re awarded their XP for that scenario.
Sould we consider here that 'played three encounters' actually means 'completed' or 'won' three encounters?
Other way to say this: let's say that a party completed the first two encounters, engaged in the third encounter, but then realized they could not win this third encounter and then escaped the monsters. And also suppose there is no way to engage and complete encounters 4 and 5.
Does this party receive xp for that mod or not? (I would think of no xp here)
|
Other way to say this: let's say that a party completed the first two encounters, engaged in the third encounter, but then realized they could not win this third encounter and then escaped the monsters. And also suppose there is no way to engage and complete encounters 4 and 5.
Along the same lines: what if the character in question dies in the third encounter, but the group goes on to finish the adventure before amassing enough wealth to raise her. Does she get the XP for participating in 3 encounters? How about for participating in 3 encounters that were completed? or does she not get XP because she herself did not complete three encounters? As written I would say the first one (thats also how we ruled it at the time) but I wanted to know what the official say was.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
|
Sooo... other than the above-mentioned Doug Doug solution (lose all gear), what is the PFS-legal way to handle a TPC (total party capture)? A GM today just had everybody get captured by the enemy in #41.
So how does this get recorded? Same as death? 0 XP/0 PA/0 GP chronicle sheet and no replay?
|
|
Sooo... other than the above-mentioned Doug Doug solution (lose all gear), what is the PFS-legal way to handle a TPC (total party capture)? A GM today just had everybody get captured by the enemy in #41.
So how does this get recorded? Same as death? 0 XP/0 PA/0 GP chronicle sheet and no replay?
I (obviously) am not an official answer-er for this... but I do have something to add: In Slave Pits of Absalom (can't remember the number) there is a possibility of the PCs getting captured. The scenario mentions something along the lines of "PCs aren't dead, but are kicked out of PFS, thus unable to continue playing."
My 2cp.
|
|
Sooo... other than the above-mentioned Doug Doug solution (lose all gear), what is the PFS-legal way to handle a TPC (total party capture)? A GM today just had everybody get captured by the enemy in #41.
So how does this get recorded? Same as death? 0 XP/0 PA/0 GP chronicle sheet and no replay?
I really want to comment but I've had my say. I'd like to hear the thoughts of my peers.
|
|
Sooo... other than the above-mentioned Doug Doug solution (lose all gear), what is the PFS-legal way to handle a TPC (total party capture)? A GM today just had everybody get captured by the enemy in #41.
So how does this get recorded? Same as death? 0 XP/0 PA/0 GP chronicle sheet and no replay?
I (obviously) am not an official answer-er for this... but I do have something to add: In Slave Pits of Absalom (can't remember the number) there is a possibility of the PCs getting captured. The scenario mentions something along the lines of "PCs aren't dead, but are kicked out of PFS, thus unable to continue playing."
My 2cp.
OK, I can't wait. Austin, the text you are thinking of concerns the PCs attacking the Token Guard, the Coins District watchmen in Absalom. The foes in #41 aren't the law-abiding types, and their slaves don't end up back on the surface... In any event, the end is the same, no? Their careers in the Pathfinder Society are over.
In Living Greyhawk when there was a situation like this (and the author foresaw it) you could appeal to the Triad for a special mission to have other players rescue the captured PCs. My poor cleric from above who died three times was abducted by a Bar-Lgura and held prisoner in the lands of Iuz. He languished for about six months and then we got a group together for a successful rescue.
In Arcanis there was an adventure where there was an excellent chance you'd fail and be captured. I never played it but I heard stories about "Hope for the Fallen". It was a lot more difficult to mount a rescue with so few players locally.
|
In Living Greyhawk when there was a situation like this (and the author foresaw it) you could appeal to the Triad for a special mission to have other players rescue the captured PCs. My poor cleric from above who died three times was abducted by a Bar-Lgura and held prisoner in the lands of Iuz. He languished for about six months and then we got a group together for a successful rescue.
In Arcanis there was an adventure where there was an excellent chance you'd fail and be captured. I never played it but I heard stories about "Hope for the Fallen". It was a lot more difficult to mount a rescue with so few players locally.
I like the idea of a "Hope for the Fallen" scenario written specifically to rescue captured Pathfinders and return their characters to the game.
While such a purpose-written scenario would have obvious and dramatic appeal for players who have lost characters to capture or slavery, and these players may seek out such a scenario to play, a similar solution could be more casually inserted into various scenarios for easier access.
For example, there are many opportunities within Pathfinder Society scenarios for Andoran faction characters (or others) to "free the slaves". In any of these occasions, the scenario could include a clause such as "any player who has a character locked out of play due to being captured or enslaved, has an opportunity now to unlock that character and return him/her to play".
While a character could have been captured or enslaved in a specific region, in specific circumstance, the nature of raids, escapes, underground slave-trade across national borders etc, means it shouldn't be that unusual for a slave captured in, say, Katapesh to turn up months later in a scenario set in Absalom's slave pit district.
But all this assumes there's already a mechanism in place for retiring characters due to capture/slavery, and that players file away their character records for possible future play.
|
|
I'm also wondering how prevalent is character death, capture, slavery or TPKs in Pathfinder Society? It seems every group has a horror experience to relate. Or are we getting an exaggerated sense of this on the messageboards, because this is where they're being reported?
For example, I've just achieved my third star (GMed 61 sessions) and played two charcters through several more. Despite some close-calls, among all those sessions, I think I've only had two scenarios report character deaths, and only one character capture, and even then, I thought it appropriate for GrandMaster Torch to negotiate for her release during the conclusion, as he was the one who sent them there.
Josh probably has better statistics on player death, but currently there's no record kept of player captures, which GMs might currently be recording as player death, due to the character being taken out of the game. It might be useful to have separate reporting checkboxes for character death and capture.
I'm not suggesting these events don't happen, of course they do, and they can be quite the disappointment for the players concerned. But if implementing "free the slave" options in scenarios, something to be cautious to avoid is GMs becomimg overly dramatic with opportunities to enslave characters believing they're providing players a "fun" opportunity to rescue their character another day. If this option is explored, it should be a rare and important story option for the player concerned.
I'm also wondering how prevalent is character death, capture, slavery or TPKs in Pathfinder Society? It seems every group has a horror experience to relate. Or are we getting an exaggerated sense of this on the messageboards, because this is where they're being reported?
I don't think they're very frequent, but they do happen, and when they happen, people tend to complain loudly.
The only scenario I've played in with multiple deaths was Shipyard Rats. Actually, that's the only scenario I've played in with any deaths (although there have been some close calls).
|
|
I think that whatever is decided, it needs to be simple and easy to track. Otherwise things get way too complicated and no one will understand what to do. Just look at GM rules, people still ask questions like "Do I get a chronicle if I had already played the scenario but not GM'd it before?" for example.
Even though I know it would throw off the PA "curve", I think it should be the loss of a PA. To demonstrate the dissatisfaction of the Society with your inability to complete the mission. This would be for the main Society mission only. I know the character could get a -1 PA for the scenario, but there is still a chance that the character gets a +1 PA.
Losing XP while still gaining some or all gold and PA is not a penalty, as mentioned above. The biggest thing that penalizes characters is the loss of gold or PA. It may also be the biggest incentive to complete society missions.
Another option I've thought of is to impose a penalty to all d20 rolls for the next three scenarios. While not universally equal to all characters, it would effect all in some form or another. Even a -1 penalty would be an incentive to complete a society mission.
Just my 2cp.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
|
Ultimately, we ruled it as a character death--which, in this case, meant the same result as permanent removal from play. Nobody had enough money or PA to get a raise dead, so they're all done for good.
...unless Josh has a different ruling about total party capture.
|
|
That's the way it happens sometimes. I TPKed a party in Part 4 and their bodies were unrecoverable. It's an awful feeling as a GM when you know it's all over and there's no way to avoid that sad fact. What did them in, was it bad luck or bad tactics?
Speaking of luck... I had better NEVER see those dice of yours in action again. Three confirmed crits, and no d20 under a 13, and nearly max on the damage dice, all in the first encounter. Poor Roger. :( Is there somewhere in Absalom to buy a "Bag of Frank's Dice?" I swear making you use his old-man d20 was the only thing that saved us from a TPK.
|
|
Speaking of luck... I had better NEVER see those dice of yours in action again. Three confirmed crits, and no d20 under a 13, and nearly max on the damage dice, all in the first encounter. Poor Roger. :( Is there somewhere in Absalom to buy a "Bag of Frank's Dice?" I swear making you use his old-man d20 was the only thing that saved us from a TPK.
Aside:
|
|
Question for Doug Miles - What happens when you have a TPK? Does the society fetch the bodies? Is it dependent on the scenario? I have only had a single PC die here or there, no TPK. Just curious on how to rule it if it happens at our events. Obviously low level PC's can be chucked in the trash, but a group of higher level PC's who have the PA for raise dead is another story. Thoughts?
|
I am not the mighty Doug Doug, 5-star VC, but I've had a few TPK's. As long as the bodies are reasonably retrievable, then a normal raise dead should still work just fine. Problems when the cause of death prevents the body from being recovered. Then you need to advance to a more powerful resurrection method.
Question for Doug Miles - What happens when you have a TPK? Does the society fetch the bodies? Is it dependent on the scenario? I have only had a single PC die here or there, no TPK. Just curious on how to rule it if it happens at our events. Obviously low level PC's can be chucked in the trash, but a group of higher level PC's who have the PA for raise dead is another story. Thoughts?
This was answered sometime back by Josh and then lost into the mists of the archives, but I believe his viewpoint, while it was still the official one, was that a TPKed party is retrieved by another group of Pathfinders that goes in to finish the job and whoever had the gold or the PA for the raise dead or resurrection or stone to flesh or whatever was needed to restore the character could do so at the end of the session.