I just can't shake the feeling that Inquisitors' BAB and HD are under-par.
At the very least it seems they would qualify for a 'variant' HD/BAB combo, but I can't actually say which one (HD/BAB) would be more suitable to increase over the other... I suppose I would lean towards a HD-type increase.
Thoughts?
I'd rather up the BAB than the HD. Rogues, monks, clerics and others do fine on the line with their d8 hit dice. I, however, found that the 3/4 BAB wasn't too crippling either. Especially with Judgments to improve to hit bonuses, party support and the bane ability. Rogues do just fine in melee with mid-BAB/d8. I wouldn't complain about a bump in either HD or BAB, but I don't think it's necessary.
I agree with Mauril, they have the same HD and BAB as rogues and that's really what they were going for. This isn't supposed to be a pally, it's supposed to be the Rogue's answer to the Pally.
And considering the fact that Inquisitors really seem to favor ranged weapons (having proficiency with literally everything that has the word "bow" in it) the bump to either really seems unnecessary.
And in accordance with what I read in the design notes for Pathfinder that HD is in line with BAB, +1/2 = d6, +3/4= d8 etc etc (save for the Barb) if you upped one, the designers might be inclined to up both to stick with their system.
HD/BAB are right on target, he gets bard spell progression, bard HD/BAB, 6 skill per level. He is a full caster with skills and combat ability tacked on. If you upped his HD/BAB his casting would have to drop to a half caster like a paladin/ranger
We already have 2 divine half caster while we have no bard like divine caster. Bumping BAB/HD {they are tied now you bump both} would call for a total rewrite of the class.
If you keep the current spell progression, you can't really go up any higher on the BAB/HD scales without overpowering the Inquisitor. I think that as long as the spellcasting remains the same, the HD/BAB should remain the same, too.
Just to clarify my sentiments here:
I'm well aware of the BAB/HD 'corellation', that's why I specifically mentioned the possibility of a VARIANT combo, like Barbarians use. If a rationale exists for a variant combo, there's no reason it CAN'T be done, the BAB/HD correlation is just the 'default starting point' (and the baseline lowest HD have been bumped up, d4->d6, d6->d8).
I see alot of comparisons to the Bard. Which is great except that nobody will complain that much if the Bard never fights (or is just mediocre when they do), while the Inquisitor is all about fighting. The Bard's spells (and performance) are of general use to the party and can compete with Full Casters within their niche, while the Inquistors spells GENERALLY are single-target buffs. The Bard can do spellcasting WHILE doing their bardic performance, while the Inquisitor has to do one or the other (casting or fighting). The Bard has "early entry" to spells, while the Inquisitor's spells seem to be largely equivalent by spell level (but gained later).
I'd honestly rather see a Full BAB and take out a few of the buffs granting +att bonus if necessary, or bump up their spell level. BAB affects CMD and gives you more Iteratives, as well as for Feat Pre-Reqs. Unless STR-based melee Inquisitors are going to be given "the bird", a d10 HD is a pretty nice thing to have.
Though Ranged weapons are certainly a strong option for Inquisitors currently (how Bane works currently favors Ranged Weapons b/c Rapid Fire, etc all gain full bonus vs. 2WF) I don't think the flavor is dependent on that being the ONLY viable option... Besides the specific implementation of Bane, there are no class features making them specifically good at Ranged vs. Melee, so I don't think the INTENT was for that to be the 'favored approach' as much as an ENABLED approach by having Weapon Proficiency. ...And certainly being "Ranged only" makes the Solo Tactics/Teamwork Feats a wierd feature given keeping allies adjacent to you as an Archer is a bit more of a stretch.
I'd honestly rather see a Full BAB and take out a few of the buffs granting +att bonus if necessary, or bump up their spell level. BAB affects CMD and gives you more Iteratives, as well as for Feat Pre-Reqs. Unless STR-based melee Inquisitors are going to be given "the bird", a d10 HD is a pretty nice thing to have.
Would it be any better to drop or tone-down the tactical feats in favor of rogue-style precision damage buffs? Perhaps not sneak attack (per se; to avoid stepping on the rogue's role) but something similar to simulate the targeted application of divine justice?
Though Ranged weapons are certainly a strong option for Inquisitors currently (how Bane works currently favors Ranged Weapons b/c Rapid Fire, etc all gain full bonus vs. 2WF) ...I don't think the INTENT was for that to be the 'favored approach' as much as an ENABLED approach by having Weapon Proficiency.
Oof. Never tripped to that. That makes a glaring amount of sense now that you bring it up.
I'm looking forward to testing an Inquisitor in a game this weekend, and I wondered during character generation just how much effort to put into ranged (say, concealed sniping) versus melee.
I love the class and really want to see it succeed. Still needs a tweak or two, though.
I'd honestly rather see a Full BAB and take out a few of the buffs granting +att bonus if necessary, or bump up their spell level. BAB affects CMD and gives you more Iteratives, as well as for Feat Pre-Reqs. Unless STR-based melee Inquisitors are going to be given "the bird", a d10 HD is a pretty nice thing to have.Would it be any better to drop or tone-down the tactical feats in favor of rogue-style precision damage buffs? Perhaps not sneak attack (per se; to avoid stepping on the rogue's role) but something similar to simulate the targeted application of divine justice?
Though Ranged weapons are certainly a strong option for Inquisitors currently (how Bane works currently favors Ranged Weapons b/c Rapid Fire, etc all gain full bonus vs. 2WF) ...I don't think the INTENT was for that to be the 'favored approach' as much as an ENABLED approach by having Weapon Proficiency.Oof. Never tripped to that. That makes a glaring amount of sense now that you bring it up.
I'm looking forward to testing an Inquisitor in a game this weekend, and I wondered during character generation just how much effort to put into ranged (say, concealed sniping) versus melee.
I love the class and really want to see it succeed. Still needs a tweak or two, though.
The class can already match most others in combat. I'd worry about giving it any more damage, since it gets a lot already, with bonuses to both hit and damage that make it = or better than a fighter for a good portion of combat.
Yeah, I think you'd have to nerf a lot more than just the spellcasting to make a full BAB Inquisitor balanced. Even keeping them at d8 hp wouldn't really help. They're pretty well-balanced as they are. No need to go mucking things up at this late a date.
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HD/BAB are right on target, he gets bard spell progression, bard HD/BAB, 6 skill per level. He is a full caster with skills and combat ability tacked on. If you upped his HD/BAB his casting would have to drop to a half caster like a paladin/ranger
We already have 2 divine half caster while we have no bard like divine caster. Bumping BAB/HD {they are tied now you bump both} would call for a total rewrite of the class.
I agree totally with regard to the balancing you presented. I just completed the Skinsaw Murders with an Inquisitor and the spells rarely came up. It might be just how I am playing the class, but I close melee early and if I cannot reach a target I use my Magic Domain to give my mace the returning property. I rarely used spells, but others might build it differently.
The Campaign Setting Cleric Variant lets you give up Domains for Full BAB/d10 Hit Die.
Haven't noticed much complaints that that's overpowered, and obviously the people at Paizo didn't.
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The cleric variant in the campaign setting uses 3.5 rules as opposed to full Pathfinder core info, how that balances, I'm not sure, but I wouldn't allow it. Clerics can already get crazy with their spells and now domain abilities... :P
Also, Inquisitor isn't ALL about fighting. While it is a heavy part of what they do, I see inquisitor to be more of a rogue/ranger mix. The combat side of things is there, and it is important, but as a d20 game, combat tends to be pretty important. However, the Inquisitor is more about cunning, deception, and knowledge. The Judgments, Domain Power, Bane ability, and spells more than make up for the lack of a full BaB. To be honest, Inquisitor is my absolute favorite of the APG classes.
I think my only complaint is that there is a lack of some basic martial weapon proficiencies. I'd be happy with like Shortsword, or something like that. (hell rogue's get that much) Yeah, I know, they get every freakin Crossbow in the game, but a sword would be nice.
That's my one complaint. I think the Inquisitor needs Martial weapon prof.
Which is why I made mine as a half-orc so I could get the falchion proficiency free. Plus, the better crit range comes in handy when you get the Exploit Weakness ability.
Have to admit though that I had to strongly consider going fighter or ranger for first level to try and get martial weapon proficiency and the +1 attack bonus out of the gate so you could do power attack at first level.
And I really didn't want to pick a domain just for the weapon but that is another possibility. Especially when I really wanted the travel domain power.
I thought a glaive would be cool but wasn't really enthused about an Inquisitor of Shelyn.