I've ran four adventure paths from start to finish, and personally, the best AP I've ever ran was an Age of Worms campaign with an evil party. Predominantly Lawful-Evil, the group was forced to work together to save the world. The story stayed mostly the same, just some of the motivations were different. They weren't trying to save Diamond Lake; they wanted to take it over. With Blackwall keep, part of the plot was proving the Heironians couldn't safeguard the area and that a keep dedicated to Hextor would do a better job. Faced with the overwhelming evil of Kyuss and his spawn, the group decided it was in their best interest to defeat him, since no one wants to rule over a dead world.
So, I think if an 'evil' adventure path was written, I would favor the Lawful Evil structure, the sort of dogma that wants to save the world, just not wanting to save everyone in it. (That, and I'm a little scared of PCs who predominantly play CE or CN characters.)
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Since I've been a victim of real life evil I don't allow my PC's to play evil characters. They're only allowed to play LG, NG, or CG (and if I deem it appropriate LN). I don't think imagining "being evil" is something that people should do. Heroes in a society are heroes for a reason...because they fight back the darkness.
I'm "morally challenged", and I feel offended by this post. They could have been CN, but no, you just assumed they were evil. After all, all evil people look alike, right?
My people have been fighting for their basic civil rights for literally ever, and then you have to go and make a comment like that. Like it's all evil people's fault that bad things happen in this world.
Also, you can't use that word, that's our word :)
Wow so many people acting all high and mighty. What is so wrong with playing an evil character, why do so many of you shun the thought of someone wanting to be evil (in the game), I can understand this mind set if you play with your kids or if you have younger players but the majority of players now days are adults and I don't think playing an evil character in a fantasy game is going to make you believe that its a good idea in real life, so please people come on down off that horse and and stop acting like your better then the ones who can admit that they like there evil characters we all have a darker side and sometimes its fun to let it out.
o_o...
...IS THAT A DEEP CROW IN YOUR SIG (FROM PENNY ARCADE)?
If so, I didn't realize anyone had made artwork of it. Shoot, would have liked to have that in the Bestiary. Would be a good opponent for dungeon delving PC's. ^_^
The Deep Crow appears in the Bestiary of Pathfinder Adventure Path #16. It won't be in the Bestiary because it was licensed for a single appearance and isn't Open Game Content.
I removed another post. Posting a thinly veiled personal attack after one has already been removed is not good behavior.
Seriously, "Don't be a jerk" is the very first messageboard rule here.
It's Valentine's Day! Be nice to one another.
Wow so many people acting all high and mighty. What is so wrong with playing an evil character, why do so many of you shun the thought of someone wanting to be evil (in the game), I can understand this mind set if you play with your kids or if you have younger players but the majority of players now days are adults and I don't think playing an evil character in a fantasy game is going to make you believe that its a good idea in real life, so please people come on down off that horse and and stop acting like your better then the ones who can admit that they like there evil characters we all have a darker side and sometimes its fun to let it out.
Because getting five people together who can consistently be mature enough to play evil and yet not try to screw over the other players is nigh on impossible, that's why.
Personally I couldn't play an actively evil character for more than ten minutes, because I just don't tick that way, but that's kinda beside the point.
Ya know, people love to throw around the word "evil" to cover all sorts of things, but it really doesn't. Just like there are three evil alignments in the game, there are a lot of ways to describe not being good, such as bad, unlawful, wicked, wrong, evil with a little "e", Evil with a capital "E", and then the really bad all-capital EVIL. A lot of things people talk about roleplaying as evil are not really evil, but are more selfish, greedy, mean, etc. Robbing a back is not evil, mugging someone is not evil, murdering someone is evil, murdering many people is Evil, Hitler was EVIL.
I don't play evil alignments or allow evil aligned character in my games because I know where the line is between the lesser things I mentioned and real evil. There are a lot of bad or wrong things that a character who is good or neutral can do without endangering a change of their alignment to evil.
And as for keeping a party of all evil characters playing "nice" together, one simple solution is to require them to all follow the same god, and then let that god and his/her clergy keep the players in line.
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Wow so many people acting all high and mighty. What is so wrong with playing an evil character, why do so many of you shun the thought of someone wanting to be evil (in the game), I can understand this mind set if you play with your kids or if you have younger players but the majority of players now days are adults and I don't think playing an evil character in a fantasy game is going to make you believe that its a good idea in real life, so please people come on down off that horse and and stop acting like your better then the ones who can admit that they like there evil characters we all have a darker side and sometimes its fun to let it out.Because getting five people together who can consistently be mature enough to play evil and yet not try to screw over the other players is nigh on impossible, that's why.
Personally I couldn't play an actively evil character for more than ten minutes, because I just don't tick that way, but that's kinda beside the point.
Yes, I think you absolutely can play as a party of evil characters. Think about it, what does everyone want? Fame, fortune, money, and power. Good players want it, evil players want it, even neutral players want it.
Screwing over other players is merely an immature belief that evil people can't work together for a greater purpose, propagated by the cartoons and comic books we have all subjected ourselves to as children. One doesn't need to look very far in modern culture to find examples of groups of evil people who work together effectively.
What I'm saying is, as long as the cause is a great enough motivating factor, anyone would work together to get the job done. Saving the world from imminent destruction is probably something the vast majority of people, good and evil, would probably want to do.
What good is ruling the world if someone's gonna come along and try to destroy it?
Yes, I think you absolutely can play as a party of evil characters. Think about it, what does everyone want? Fame, fortune, money, and power. Good players want it, evil players want it, even neutral players want it.Screwing over other players is merely an immature belief that evil people can't work together for a greater purpose, propagated by the cartoons and comic books we have all subjected ourselves to as children. One doesn't need to look very far in modern culture to find examples of groups of evil people who work together effectively.
What I'm saying is, as long as the cause is a great enough motivating factor, anyone would work together to get the job done. Saving the world from imminent destruction is probably something the vast majority of people, good and evil, would probably want to do.
What good is ruling the world if someone's gonna come along and try to destroy it?
That sounds do-able in concept, but my point was that it is very difficult to find a group of players who can consistenly keep that standard of play, without falling into backstabbery.
Eh, I probably am not the best person for this discussion anyway. As I said, I can't play an evil character for ten minutes, since it goes against my core values. I can barely tolerate other players playing them and don't allow them when I do GM.
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Wow so many people acting all high and mighty. What is so wrong with playing an evil character, why do so many of you shun the thought of someone wanting to be evil (in the game), I can understand this mind set if you play with your kids or if you have younger players but the majority of players now days are adults and I don't think playing an evil character in a fantasy game is going to make you believe that its a good idea in real life, so please people come on down off that horse and and stop acting like your better then the ones who can admit that they like there evil characters we all have a darker side and sometimes its fun to let it out.Because getting five people together who can consistently be mature enough to play evil and yet not try to screw over the other players is nigh on impossible, that's why.
Personally I couldn't play an actively evil character for more than ten minutes, because I just don't tick that way, but that's kinda beside the point.
I don't know if I think it's a maturity thing; it is more of a "what you think is fun thing". I'd say about half my current group will not play evil characters, or if they do will limit themselves to selfish evil, not outright evil. The remainder would, but frankly I've played that campaign with them already and the sheer level of deviousness means that eventually the campaign will implode on itself, every single time.
I've had evil players backstab other players (literally killing their characters outright), I've had them steal ever piece of loot in the dungeon as the only party rogue, I've had them ruin the "heroes" reputation in the only town in the campaign, and most importantly I've had people threaten to quit in the past because they stopped having fun constantly having to watch their backs and spend half the game passing notes.
I don't know about you, but I like my campaigns to be lasting and memorable (not just one or the other), and as a result I limit my games now to LG, NG, CG, LN, N, and LE. I explain to my players at the beginning that personal motives are good, and I will even allow players to fit in the selfish mold, but I outright prohibit CN, NE, and CE because they are disruptive and limit the feeling that the heroes of the campaign are heroes (CN gets bundled in because again I have two regular players, my brother being one, who insist on using CN as an excuse to be CE).
I realize other people have differing opinions, but the thing they need to realize is that while they don't have a problem playing a good hero, those who don't like playing evil actively disdain the playstyle.
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I suppose it's the same reason why people had such a hard time playing Paladins, most people really don't know how to make LG work with other players. A party of LG players would work together relatively easily, but working with "the man" makes other players uncomfortable.
A way I worked with the Pally for my games is that I gave them a code for when they could or could not use Detect Evil and when it was appropriate for them to dispense judgement. It was sort of what Prof Xavier used for his ability to read thoughts.
But yes, ground rules are sometimes necessary for evil parties. Having a more powerful authority figure helps, too. Mostly it's just a problem of lack of communication between players and DMs that causes the friction. If they don't know what's expected and appropriate for this type of game, you can't expect them to act as mature as you'd hoped.
LE is one of the best alignments for an evil campaign for just those reasons. CE is alot harder for people to grasp, and are probably the cause for most in fighting. You're players are not just rolling dice, they're acting out roles too, so give them some script to use, some motivation or they will be directionless.
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I'm so disappointed at this thread... judging by its name, I thought it would deal with discussion about *being* Evil. I am Evil. Aberzombie is Evil. Evil Lincoln is -- naturally -- Evil. And KaeYoss is not only Evil, he's also ultimately deranged and insane.
We *can* all be Evil. Evil gives you all kinds of good stuff -- just say 'yes' to the brimstone-smelling guy, and sign on the dotted line!
I'm so disappointed at this thread... judging by its name, I thought it would deal with discussion about *being* Evil. I am Evil. Aberzombie is Evil. Evil Lincoln is -- naturally -- Evil. And KaeYoss is not only Evil, he's also ultimately deranged and insane.
We *can* all be Evil. Evil gives you all kinds of good stuff -- just say 'yes' to the brimstone-smelling guy, and sign on the dotted line!
Would you care to sign my petition? >:D
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Would you care to sign my petition? >:DI'm so disappointed at this thread... judging by its name, I thought it would deal with discussion about *being* Evil. I am Evil. Aberzombie is Evil. Evil Lincoln is -- naturally -- Evil. And KaeYoss is not only Evil, he's also ultimately deranged and insane.
We *can* all be Evil. Evil gives you all kinds of good stuff -- just say 'yes' to the brimstone-smelling guy, and sign on the dotted line!
Gladly! Here, let me just prick you with this sacred Asmodean dagger... and now, dip your quill pen into blood and sign this contract!
Excellent! Thank you, and let me warmly welcome you to the club! Now you're officially Evil, and I'll send your personal Erinyes assistant to your apartment tomorrow.
I think evil people can work together, they just need to have a goal. I think if the end goal was strong enough, evil can work together to be "The Winning Team" we always wanted it to be.
This. As long as the evil characters have a reason to be in a group greater than "I have a better chance of surviving to take other peoples' stuff", there's no reason for the group to be less cohesive than a good or neutral group. Did the evil characters grow up together as friends? Are they members of a crime family? Do the evil characters compliment each others' strengths and cover each others' weaknesses? These are all reasons for evil characters to keep each other around, and I didn't even have to think hard to come up with them.
Honestly, while the "kill! backstab! loot!" kind of evil is certainly evil, I don't think that a character of that type is realistic. There are many, many better ways to play evil than the psychotic sociopath who stabs shopkeepers and pushes old ladies down in the street because they're "EEEEEVIL!". And if an evil party aims a bit higher than Stupid Evil, I see no reason why an evil campaign can't work.
(Myself, I played in a six-year, up to level 36 lawful evil campaign, and it worked great! I played the Merciful All-Knowing God-Emperor Drothan the Invincible, a generous-to-his-subjects, but megalomaniacal and ruthless dictator; certainly evil, but with good reasons to cooperate with his fellow party members. It is, thus far, the highlight of my lengthy role-playing career.)
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Since I've been a victim of real life evil I don't allow my PC's to play evil characters. They're only allowed to play LG, NG, or CG (and if I deem it appropriate LN). I don't think imagining "being evil" is something that people should do. Heroes in a society are heroes for a reason...because they fight back the darkness.
I really respect your reasons for not playing evil characters, and I share your sentiments.
I'm sure many players don't think too deeply about such things, for a variety of reasons: Shock culture (movies, music, video games etc) explore all manner of morally questionable matter as entertainment - how many time have we heard listening to [insert music genre here] will send you to hell?
But unless you've been on the wrong end of racism, homophobia, bullying, violent crime etc, you're not likely to view these issues with the same experience.
I could play a campaign of "defend the vampires castle from the angry peasants" as an interesting twist on popular fantasy themes, because it's clearly escapist fantasy. But if things started becoming too graphic, realistic or inappropriate, I'd certainly feel uncomfortable continuing the game.
I've played at a table where a player portrayed his character as a racist, slurring dark-skinned races during a game. I ignored the first instance or two, but when it became clear this was something he was running with, I asked him to stop! He didn't take me seriously: "they're fantasy races not real-world, and this is how my character would react". I stood firm and said "maybe your character would, but I don't need to hear you as a player using such language". He did (reluctantly) tone down his characterisation, but I think he still regarded me as a politically-correct interfering do-gooder. Of course he didn't know that my partner was Jamaican, and I shouldn't need to tell him either, there are standards of behaviour that should be met at a social public event, regardless of your company.
James Jacobs has discussed "transvirtuals" (playing opposite-gender characters) in other threads. His view: why do some people feel uncomfortable about players with opposite-gender characters, but not when a GM portrays opposite gender characters? My view: because I've seen female players upset to the point of leaving the table by males portraying female characters inappropriately, until said male player was given a warning, and such instances leave a lasting impression.
As with all things, if you're playing responsibly, it shouldn't come up as a problem. But by the same argument: if the GM routinely portrays Evil characters, and no-one questions that as inappropriate gaming, then why shouldn't players be given an opportunity to do so? My view: largely because players pick up the ball, and run off the field with it.
As with other socially sensitive issues, you need to be respectful toward others around this topic. Just as it would be grossly insensitive to give Carmageddon (video game running pedestrians down) to someone who had lost a loved one in a traffic accident, playing Evil characters is understandably an unapproachable subject to some.
Peace.
Now you're officially Evil, and I'll send your personal Erinyes assistant to your apartment tomorrow.
That is the best part, it's true.
I would like to add my pennies to the conversation.
First, it is absolutely possible to have a group play evil characters in a long-running campaing. I was the "new guy" in a nearly decade long evil campaign (and as such, closely watched for "backstabbery" intentions). Character alignments were predominantly LE, with 2/3 of the party being followers of Set. I had an anti-paladin who was seeking to free Satan (first edition campaign). We were not solely constrained by a single deity, but rather by evil deities (or devils) working at mostly parallel purposes.
There was often inter-party tension. I recall role-playing out my explanation that giving gold pieces to peasant children was not "good", but rather an incentive for the children to remember who rewarded them so that they could eventually become willing servants. Those party members who preferred a rigid "no witnesses" policy were actually swayed by my debate. While apparently an anomaly, I had a very rewarding time indulging in fantasy (whether moral or immoral) with thoughtful, intelligent players. And I still played good in other games.
Second, I recognize that alignments are "defined" in very different ways by different players. I've had DMs ban CN faster than LE (or CE, for that matter). I've had DMs ban N, since "no-one can play that". SO that means one needs a group with a general consensus to play a successful campaign. I believe that holds true for good or evil or just plain greedy campaigns. While I respect that many players have no desire to play evil, I also respect that the game is big enough to accomodate those who do. Just as I would prefer there not to be any abortions, I would not outright ban them... or just as I have never indulged in illicit drugs, I still think that many should not be outright banned... etc.
Third, from a business perspective, given the numerous mixed feelings about evil parties and evil in general, an AP probably would not make sense. But a module might. Obviously, there are quite a few people who want to play evil for one reason or another. So there is a target demographic. Of course, there are also players who would be loathe to see such a product and would complain. So perhaps a low-key marketing strategy might be called for, where there is an option for morally ambiguous characters available, but not heavily promoted.
Finally, I also recognize that crafting an evil adventure, much less campaign, requires a fair amount of specificity, if only so that one's own players will buy into it and not use the evil tag as license to misbehave. That makes crafting such a piece more challenging than crafting for the "masses" who tend to assume heroes are, well, heroic. So I expect any evil module to be developed "on the side" an donly when its absolute merit shows it worthy for it to be picked up, edited and pakaged for trial sale. How good at evil cna you be?
Well you just need more experience. It's easy to find cohesion and even write an AP for one if you cant think the ri.. er wrong way.
"Herding Cats" HAHAHA
I'm so happy I checked the boards today.
I'd buy an evil AP if our primary book-haver didn't (he would, we love you paizo!), and my group would be psyched. I think they'd make me run though. :(
I'll try not to be as long-winded as I have been in the past on this subject.
Good doesn't mean complicated any more than Evil means flat or boring.
Not everyone can be an evil mastermind without drastic changes to the party system, I'll grant you.
Frankly, some of us have rage issues and playing evil characters is what gets us through a day filled with people who say stuff like: "I've been a victim of real life evil"
It will never happen though, so I don't get the posturing that goes on over it. Paizo knows that loads of people would refuse to buy a heretical product. =P
Would you care to sign my petition? >:DI'm so disappointed at this thread... judging by its name, I thought it would deal with discussion about *being* Evil. I am Evil. Aberzombie is Evil. Evil Lincoln is -- naturally -- Evil. And KaeYoss is not only Evil, he's also ultimately deranged and insane.
We *can* all be Evil. Evil gives you all kinds of good stuff -- just say 'yes' to the brimstone-smelling guy, and sign on the dotted line!
Gladly! Here, let me just prick you with this sacred Asmodean dagger... and now, dip your quill pen into blood and sign this contract!
Excellent! Thank you, and let me warmly welcome you to the club! Now you're officially Evil, and I'll send your personal Erinyes assistant to your apartment tomorrow.
Am i to late to sign up as well?
Am i to late to sign up as well?
I am afraid the petition has been filled fully... better luck next time.
Unless you'd like to sign my new petition? Its to have all Erinyes wear blocky librarian glasses.
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Aberzombie is Evil.
Whoa now! Let's not just go throwing the term "evil" around at just anybody. Seriously, you'll put someone's eye out.
For the record, I am NOT evil, I'm chaotic (it says so in my profile). I'm also just a tad misunderstood, as are most of the heart beat challenged. We're all really just regular guys, trying to find our way in a world which hates and fears us.
If we had the brains, we'd find ourselves someplace secluded, away from all the prejudice against the undead.
Mmmm.....brainnnnnssss.
Unless you'd like to sign my new petition? Its to have all Erinyes wear blocky librarian glasses.As long as that also means they'll carry big rulers and spank us for talking too loudly, then you can sign me up!
I thought that was assumed.
Spot 1 filled.
Am i to late to sign up as well?I am afraid the petition has been filled fully... better luck next time.
Unless you'd like to sign my new petition? Its to have all Erinyes wear blocky librarian glasses.
Thank you for your kind offer on the new petition, but my wi..Erinyes already wears glasses, please consider me for the next one how ever!
Unless you'd like to sign my new petition? Its to have all Erinyes wear blocky librarian glasses.As long as that also means they'll carry big rulers and spank us for talking too loudly, then you can sign me up!
wooooow!!
Well, if they won't make an adventure or two, why don't we do it? We could publish it as a fan-made adventure and hand it out during Paizocon.
I would be in! Also, handsome profile pic.
Well hey, what did you have in mind?
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Well hey, what did you have in mind?
I'm going to brainstorm. Maybe wait until the King Maker AP comes out and use those rules (modified slightly) to run an evil adventure/campaign. Ruling a country or doing things that will affect a country would be awesome, and you could easily convert it to an evil campaign.
Aspis Consortium-esque group, getting what they need however they can? Have them searching for an artifact protected by good beings, allowing them to make decisions that a good aligned party can't even entertain?
Oh, as far as the King Maker idea goes, they toady for a not quite evil ruler who really wants his kingdom to run well, but it requires some dirty work for him to do it-enter PCs. They get the kingdom running at full capacity before the citizens decide to foment revolution and a party of good aligned NPCs assassinates the King, leaving the kingdom in chaos and leaving the PCs to clean up the mess. I'd base it in Galt.
Pffft amateurs. Get back to me when you've graduated from silly overlording and oblivion cults into the truly diabolical.
Civil engineering.
Oh, yeah, like you have ideas :)
Consider the humble invention known as the highway. All you have to do is design that thing jsut a few feet thinner than it needs to be.
From that point on men, women and entire families will get on this road and immediately slow down. Horns will honk, rage will flare, people will die. Those who don't die will feel a blackness in their soul rise and this blackness will continue on and on everytime they get on this highway before they are either plodding through life as mindless drones or snap into a cannibalizing frenzy.
What's better is when the powers that be finally get about to widening the road it will only make matters worse. Much, much worse. This highway will effect thousands, hundreds of thousands, even millions given enough time. That's just one piece of work. I'm not even talking about zoning laws, water treatment and phonelines.
While you and your friends are still diddling with your lower plane tramps I'm throwing pebbles that send dark oily ripples over the world.
Wait, you're talking about the AP? Damn...um gimme a minute I've got a lot on my plate writing wise as it is.
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Am i to late to sign up as well?Would you care to sign my petition? >:DI'm so disappointed at this thread... judging by its name, I thought it would deal with discussion about *being* Evil. I am Evil. Aberzombie is Evil. Evil Lincoln is -- naturally -- Evil. And KaeYoss is not only Evil, he's also ultimately deranged and insane.
We *can* all be Evil. Evil gives you all kinds of good stuff -- just say 'yes' to the brimstone-smelling guy, and sign on the dotted line!
Gladly! Here, let me just prick you with this sacred Asmodean dagger... and now, dip your quill pen into blood and sign this contract!
Excellent! Thank you, and let me warmly welcome you to the club! Now you're officially Evil, and I'll send your personal Erinyes assistant to your apartment tomorrow.
No, of course not -- just sign on the line... here! Thank you! Now, off you go, stealing candy from kids and picking on Mairkurion!
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Aberzombie is Evil.Whoa now! Let's not just go throwing the term "evil" around at just anybody. Seriously, you'll put someone's eye out.
For the record, I am NOT evil, I'm chaotic (it says so in my profile). I'm also just a tad misunderstood, as are most of the heart beat challenged. We're all really just regular guys, trying to find our way in a world which hates and fears us.
If we had the brains, we'd find ourselves someplace secluded, away from all the prejudice against the undead.
Mmmm.....brainnnnnssss.
Nah, you're living in denial. Eating brains? Definitely Evil. Misunderstood? Not so. But at least I didn't label you as 'dangerous' or 'deranged', right? (Nothing wrong with eating brains, if you ask me)
Mrs.Fishy wonders why the question is being asked at all.
Mrs. Fishy is Evil enough for all.
I would prefer a reverse dungeon type module over an evil module.
I'm a fan of the reverse dungeon.
Does anyone remember Birthright? That setting would require only minor tweaks to let everyone run a country (of eeeeeviiiiil) and still have good reason to adventure/stick together.
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I would personally have little interest in a purposely designed evil adventure path. From my personal experience having evil party members has never turned out well. If you have either a mixed or full evil party you pretty much have to lay out a whole set of new ground rules just to have a chance of even making it work. Otherwise you can pretty much count on your campaign falling into a miasma of problems. Backstabbing, stealing, party conflict, and PCs killing other PCs will pretty much become a regular occurrence in my experience. This is why I generally only allow non-evil PCs. I do not expect the PCs in my games to be saints, but I do not want them to be flat out evil. It is the type of campaign I enjoy more.
It is possible to have an evil party and make it work. It just requires a lot of work and the right group. Have even one player who does not want to play ball and play nice, do not properly outline the ground rule, have one bad night, and the whole campaign can pretty much become a train wreck. This can be tricky if you have a new group, do not have players you think would be able to handle such a campaign, or have players that have little interest in this type of campaign.
I do not think an all evil adventure path would work out well business wise considering there would be a lot of people such as myself who would have little interest in either playing or running it either for moral reasons or because of the headaches it would involve. Also for myself the novelty of playing evil quickly wears off, and would I lose all interesting in an evil campaign before I would be able to finish such an adventure path.
So what kind of evil would you want to play, if only for one or two modules? I want a more realistic approach to evil, while others seem to prefer the Super Villain-esque type game.Funny that you say that, because one of the most effective setups for this kind of game, and one that would be a lot of fun to play is: Henchmen.
I support this style of play enthusiastically (I am Evil Lincoln after all) but I don't think it would work in AP. In a module, or perhaps a trilogy of modules, sure. You would need to establish the PCs as henchmen of an evil agent — perhaps going around thwarting good in various ways. This would be best, because it lets the PCs choose thier level of evil involvement.
A really clever designer could make it so that good character might be in the party for his own reasons. Also, I've noticed that a certain kind of player enjoys running a LE or NE character who really doesn't do bad things all the time, they just happen to secretly seethe with malice.
So, a module has my support, so long as it is "working for the forces of evil" willingly, for whatever reasons, instead of mandating evil PCs. Yeah, it could be done.
I had this idea a long time ago myself. I had a group of players ask to play an evil campaign. I agreed. However I had it cave in on me as I had never run an evil campaign before. After stepping back and thinking it over... the henchman idea hit me and I was able to suggest it to my brother who was also DMing an evil game sometime later. It works well.
Something to keep in mind though is that "evil" people do not automatically stop caring about every one and every thing. They can have friends and love ones.. etc.
A "evil henchman" module would be a fun one-shot change of pace. A "unlawful" module might be interesting as well.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'm so disappointed at this thread... judging by its name, I thought it would deal with discussion about *being* Evil. I am Evil. Aberzombie is Evil. Evil Lincoln is -- naturally -- Evil. And KaeYoss is not only Evil, he's also ultimately deranged and insane.
We *can* all be Evil. Evil gives you all kinds of good stuff -- just say 'yes' to the brimstone-smelling guy, and sign on the dotted line!
Too late, I'm already evil...
Aside on playing the evil PC story, Shadrach.
Though I worried my friends when asked where Shad came from, "I wanted to run a character based on me, with all the safties off."
I think that there's something off in parts of this thread : Evil is not Chaotic.
- about the Barbarian destroying his allies' stealthy plan : chaotic
- about backstabbing the leader : chaotic evil
- about staying together to accomplish evil deeds : lawful evil
There's nothing wrong in playing (as in "not being") a party of evil-doers following the same adventure path to its end. Killing innocents is in character, as long as these innocents are on the "wrong" side of the law you follow. Killing for the pleasure is chaotic evil, and it brings down parties.
I have seen many a group going to flames because the players were chaotic (even more than their characters, sometimes). Of course, chaotic and evil makes the evil part really visible because of the blood shed, while, with lawful evil, the evil is less flashy because it's hidden in the laws. I have seen groups playing lawful evil characters and, while staying in character, stay together and play cohesively. I think most modules written for goody-two-shoes can be adapted for evil parties if you just replace the ultimate goal from "rescue X" to "acquire X" :-)
So... let's play what we want.
snip
No, of course not -- just sign on the line... here! Thank you! Now, off you go, stealing candy from kids and picking on Mairkurion!
No, no, no my girls steal the candy, I am already in a job of great and terrible wickedness. I am a salesman!
I would personally have little interest in a purposely designed evil adventure path. From my personal experience having evil party members has never turned out well. If you have either a mixed or full evil party you pretty much have to lay out a whole set of new ground rules just to have a chance of even making it work. Otherwise you can pretty much count on your campaign falling into a miasma of problems. Backstabbing, stealing, party conflict, and PCs killing other PCs will pretty much become a regular occurrence in my experience. This is why I generally only allow non-evil PCs. I do not expect the PCs in my games to be saints, but I do not want them to be flat out evil. It is the type of campaign I enjoy more.
It is possible to have an evil party and make it work. It just requires a lot of work and the right group. Have even one player who does not want to play ball and play nice, do not properly outline the ground rule, have one bad night, and the whole campaign can pretty much become a train wreck. This can be tricky if you have a new group, do not have players you think would be able to handle such a campaign, or have players that have little interest in this type of campaign.
I do not think an all evil adventure path would work out well business wise considering there would be a lot of people such as myself who would have little interest in either playing or running it either for moral reasons or because of the headaches it would involve. Also for myself the novelty of playing evil quickly wears off, and would I lose all interesting in an evil campaign before I would be able to finish such an adventure path.
+1 This I must agree with very strongly. The one shot adventure of an evil party can be great fun, but having it last is almost a no go.
I'm giving serious thought to asking all my players to run evil characters in my next game just to prove something: The problem with playing evil isn't with the character, it's with the player.
I guarantee, sight unseen, my players would recognize any pitfalls and avoid them.
Infighting decreases resources. It's not evil, it's stupid.
Doing whatever you feel like is, as has been stated, more chaotic than evil.
Party cohesion in any game is subject to stress if players OR characters disagree. I have seen this many times with every combination of alignments (including multiple LG characters - who are typically the most pigheaded - quarreling amongst themselves) and while my experiences offer no more proof than yours, they offer no less.
Meaning basically that I understand why you're gunshy about something uncomfortable for you, (playing evil) but you're trying to fix the problem by addressing something unrelated to the matter at hand. (poo-pooing a set of alignments because they've been poorly portrayed)
As far as an evil AP is concerned, there's never been an alignment requirement for an AP. So if one seems particularly suited to an evil party, that doesn't mean you can't play LG, just that you'll face all the joys we evil folk put up with when adventuring with goody goodies.
EDIT
An old argument of mine on this subject is that evil has all the same motivations as good. They just have different methods of reaching their goals. The suggestion that being evil automatically makes life easy is laughable. What kind of reception do half-fiends typically get at city gates?