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Wait... you read 'destroyed' and understand 'damaged'? :-m
So when characters are damaged beyond -CON, they are not dead, because they have been damaged?
I don't think there's any point. Destroyed is destroyed, with 0 hit points, and not repairable with the Craft skill or a number of spells, as in the part you quoted.
I think it's easy, MW ammo is damaged of all it's hit points, becoming destroyed and beyond repair.
My take is that Normal Ammo has a 50% loss rate on a miss, whereas Masterwork is lost regardless of hit or miss.
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My take is that Normal Ammo has a 50% loss rate on a miss, whereas Masterwork is lost regardless of hit or miss.
My take on RAI is that it's like Mirror, Mirror said: normal ammo has 50% chance to be lost/destroyed when used, while Masterwork ammo simply gains the 'broken' condition.
It'd nice to hear what Jason or James think, though.
My take is that Normal Ammo has a 50% loss rate on a miss, whereas Masterwork is lost regardless of hit or miss.My take on RAI is that it's like Mirror, Mirror said: normal ammo has 50% chance to be lost/destroyed when used, while Masterwork ammo simply gains the 'broken' condition.
It'd nice to hear what Jason or James think, though.
The 'Effectively destroyed' part is kinda damning.
I just think Masterwork ammo was a lost opportunity in that it doesn't stack with masterwork bows and is hideously expensive per shot.
What follows is a set of personal thoughts leading to potential house-rules since I didn't see anything about this in the PRD.
1) Ammunition is generally made in batches, so the Masterwork component is not bought for each item individually. I'd rule the number according to the Equipment section: arrows (20), bolts or bullets (10), shuriken (5).
2) While destroying ammunition is the rule, I think it's a bit overkill for masterwork ammunition, especially the ones made with durable material. Whether the ammunition (masterwork or not) strikes the enemy or not, I would apply the entire damage made by the ammunition (including critical damage, strength bonus, etc.) to itself. If it's enough to break it, it's broken. And masterwork ammunition would have more HP than the regular ammo. Hence, shuriken (made of metal) wouldn't break as easily as arrows (made of wood). If striking a solid obstacle (a wall, for instance, or creature with DR), I'd add some d6 to the damage made to the item.
3) While losing ammunition is the rule, I think it's situational. Instead of purely losing those things around, I'd put them at their maximum range, and people (PC or other) could get them back... if they find them (Perception DC 15). I'd apply the following penalties to DC: +5 for natural setting, +2 for a crowded area, -2 if the place is especially neat, -5 if there's very few things around (almost empty dungeon room). Of course, that's if you can reach the place your ammunition rests - when firing arrows from the mountainside towards the valley, chances are that you'll never find them again. And you'd find that they are broken only after recovering them.
That's... 3cp :-)
Mastercraft ammo is by individual unit, and this has been covered many times on these boards - yes its 6gp per shot, not per a stack or bundle.
masterwork ammo is finely balanced and honed to a perfect edge etc, the violent action of firing it at a target means that it will be damaged - the shaft will warp slightly, the edges burr or dull, the quills move slightly off centre - all stuff you take in your stride on normal ammo - but no longer an item of masterwork quality. I think recovering 50% of used M/W ammo as standard ammo and the rest destroyed would be fairer than the current system.
I think 6g/stack would be fairer still!
If Jason meant it to be "Broken" after use, he damn well should have used the term "Broken",
not 'damaged', not 'messed up', not 'a disgrace to all ammo-kind', etc.
So I wouldn't assume it means 'broken'.
That WOULD mean the entire line is superfluous, since it then wouldn't differ at all from NON-MW ammo.
(eerily similar to Trip, where the intent is indecipherable because the wording is obviously BAD, but unclear whether bad because it's superfluous, or bad because it doesn't actually convey a crucial difference it is trying to)
I would say that either way, the section should be Errata'd in the next Update,
either to use the correct key-word terminology if 'Broken' IS the intent,
or to remove superfluous verbiage that can only serve to confuse by it's difference from the wording for non-MW ammo.
The saved word-count can be used for those sections that would really benefit from an extra couple words.
And there seems to be an increasing number of little hints that the next Errata/Update is being worked on at the moment and will soon be announced to the world.
They use the term 'effectively destroyed'. They should just delete the words prior to that.
They should delete the whole sentence if it is just re-hashing the rules that apply to all ammunition.
If the intent is that MW ammo UNIQUELY gets the 'broken' condition, unlike normal ammo that is destroyed, they need to use the actual name of the condition. HPs are called HPs, not "combat resilience" or "vital signs".
They should delete the whole sentence if it is just re-hashing the rules that apply to all ammunition.
Its not really rehashing, its an extension that infers that MW is always trashed, as opposed to vanilla being trashed only half of the time.
Sure they could errata it, but I reckon just make a call of what works at your table.
If masterwork ammunition is always destroyed when regular ammo is destroyed only 50% of the time... what is even the point of getting MW ammo in the first place?
Seriously, shuriken are metal. Bullets are metal. Thinking they break on impact is... unrealistic.
About the 6gp price: I just had to re-read the rules and found the little bit about that pricing. When writing about the price per batch, I thought it was still 300gp (which is a bit much, even split in 20).
If masterwork ammunition is always destroyed when regular ammo is destroyed only 50% of the time... what is even the point of getting MW ammo in the first place?
Exactly. I can see it becoming 'degraded' to be normal ammo, or some other arrangement... I don't know, I guess I'm hopeful that it will be clarified/re-worked to something that makes sense and is clear in the next Update...
Specifically, you see, one of our group is playing an Arcane Archer. I think he should be able to repair MW arrows with a mending cantrip. One at a time, so not really good for in-combat, but it would certainly cut down his ammo concerns.
A lower price point might also do that! :p
Any reason he is using MW ammo? Just buy a MWork or Magic Bow - Its cheaper in the (not very) long run!
The general take on ammo as a one use item makes most ranged attackers look like pack animals (i.e. 20 quivers of arrows, 5 bags of bullets, 110 shurikens, even 15 throwing axes or daggers). A much closer look needs to be taken at the rules on ranged combat since it will be a rare adventure where a ranged specialist can survive very long with just 1-2 batch(es) of ammo.
I can see a 50% loss for normal craftmanship and would bring a 75% loss towards masterworked quality for 50x the cost of normal craftmanship (i.e. 50gp for 20 arrows instead of 1gp for 20). The loss percentage would also pertain to both ammo that hits as well as ammo that misses its intended target.
Magical ammo as mentioned is rarely a "Wow" factor among players unless they are low level or in a treasure weak campaign where they already drool over a potion of diguise self. Making the recovery of such items 75-80% would increase the favorability of such items drastically without over balancing the game.
Obviously the phrase "effectively destroyed" means you cannot fire broken ammunition. However, it does not state that the ammo is ACTUALLY destroyed, leading again the the broken condition.
Is this the case? If so, masterwork ammunition should be repairable with the Mending spell, and magical ammo repairable with Make Whole. Thanks in advance for well-though out answers.
To quote the PRD:
You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Sunder feat, or a similar ability, attempting to sunder an item provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack is successful, you deal damage to the item normally. Damage that exceeds the object's Hardness is subtracted from its hit points. If an object has equal to or less than half its total hit points remaining, it gains the broken condition (see Conditions). If the damage you deal would reduce the object to less than 0 hit points, you can choose to destroy it. If you do not choose to destroy it, the object is left with only 1 hit point and the broken condition.
As you can see, broken does not equal destroyed. A broken item has 1 hit point, while a destroyed one is, well... destroyed.
As you can see, broken does not equal destroyed. A broken item has 1 hit point, while a destroyed one is, well... destroyed.Indeed, which means MW ammo should be able to be repaired via skill checks or mending cantrips, correct? That is my interpretation.
Nothing sets ammunition apart as behaving any differently when broken or destroyed, no. As make whole can restore magical properties to an item, then it can restore magical properties to ammunition (at a rate of one item per casting).