RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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This came up in one of our PbP using PRPG rules.
The party had captured and was interrogating a rogue/cleric after a chase that ended up in the marketplace. As the cleric had attacked a commoner with hopes that helping her would slow the party down, he'd ticked off most of the town. The PCs caught up with him, but the townsfolk wanted a piece of him too.
He allowed them to get close ... men, women, even a few children, closing in from all sides and then the sick little wretch unleashed a wave of negative energy.
I liked the potential for this but I wonder if the ability of a low-level cleric to take out a crowded marketplace is too much.
Likewise, hospitals need only to gather all the sick in one place and have Raymond the Low-Level channel positive energy.
Thoughts?
This came up in one of our PbP using PRPG rules.
The party had captured and was interrogating a rogue/cleric after a chase that ended up in the marketplace. As the cleric had attacked a commoner with hopes that helping her would slow the party down, he'd ticked off most of the town. The PCs caught up with him, but the townsfolk wanted a piece of him too.
He allowed them to get close ... men, women, even a few children, closing in from all sides and then the sick little wretch unleashed a wave of negative energy.
I liked the potential for this but I wonder if the ability of a low-level cleric to take out a crowded marketplace is too much.
Likewise, hospitals need only to gather all the sick in one place and have Raymond the Low-Level channel positive energy.
Thoughts?
Well, a couple of thoughts. First, a low level cleric shouldn't be able to take out all those people. Sure a few of the weaker ones, but even a few levels of commoner should give enough hps to withstand one negative energy blast from a low level cleric. And then the ones left standing should tear him apart.
Also, while there's nothing to stop a hospital from gathering up patients for a low level cleric to use channel positive energy on, this only helps patients that have hit point damage. Illness would remain unaffected. And if the cleric is truly low level that's 1d6 per burst. And he's got a limited number of uses per day. It's just not that much in a situation where he may be called on to treat numerous patients in one day. It helps, but it's far from overwhelming.I realized as I was typing this that I'm not entirely sure what you mean by low level. I was assuming first or second level, but I may be totally off base. Still, I think the principle would remain the same. But that's just my take on it.
Well, 1d6 points of damage probably isn't going to take out a commoner. 2d6 damage may, or may not, take out a commoner, but lets go ahead and assume it does. That means an evil cleric has to be about 3rd level to pose the kind of threat that you describe. A 3rd level wizard or sorcerer can easily do that kind of area damage with Burning Hands. So this doesn't introduce a new threat or anything, just a threat from a different class.
Once you get into the realm of being able to do that reliably, you're talking about 5th level or so for the cleric when he gets 3d6 for his channeling, which is when the wizard knows Fireball.
Of course healing has always been that way, anyone could go to the local temple of [Good Deity] and get healed up, this just lets clerics do it more efficiently, so I don't feel that's much of a problem either.
Also, why are children part of a lynch mob in your games?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Yes, in the campaign in question, the cleric was a higher level.
However, commoner's get a d4 and, on average, will have no constitution bump. The average commoner will get take to or below 0 hit points by the average 1d6 of damage (unless they make their save).
EDIT: In PRPG they get a d6, so that helps.
Also, why are children part of a lynch mob in your games?No television.
hehe.
Anyway, i was basing what i said off of that commoners had a d6, max at 1st level, so 6 HP. Meaning unless the cleric rolls a "6" he doesn't even KO any of them. So he'll need to be at least 3rd level to reliably knock out some commoners (2d6 avg is 7) but even then he might not manage to do it all the time. Even at that level, he can not hope to actually *kill* any commoners (max is 12 damage, needs 16 damage to put a commoner at -10). He has to wait until 5th level to even have that chance. At 5th level, and even 3rd level, there are deadlier things out there than channeled energy, that was my point.
-awp
Neither quickened, empowered, nore consumptive feild are CORE paizo, they shouldn't really be weighed heavily when considering channeling. Especially since they were designed with a completely different system of turning in mind, I'd think long and hard as a DM about allowing them.
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This came up in one of our PbP using PRPG rules.
The party had captured and was interrogating a rogue/cleric after a chase that ended up in the marketplace. As the cleric had attacked a commoner with hopes that helping her would slow the party down, he'd ticked off most of the town. The PCs caught up with him, but the townsfolk wanted a piece of him too.
He allowed them to get close ... men, women, even a few children, closing in from all sides and then the sick little wretch unleashed a wave of negative energy.
I liked the potential for this but I wonder if the ability of a low-level cleric to take out a crowded marketplace is too much.
Likewise, hospitals need only to gather all the sick in one place and have Raymond the Low-Level channel positive energy.
Thoughts?
I'm with you, the flavour is enough for me to overlook the obvious advantage it gives to low-level clerics. I just love the idea of underground death cults sending peons to slaughter villages - that is a pretty cool fantasy trope and is now supported by the rules.
The healing thing, this kind of ties in with my complaints about the dragon shaman's healing aura. But the cleric is still limited, and at most an NPC cleric will be able to turn 5/day compared to 2-3 cure spells. It certainly plays in favor of mass healings, but by my reckoning still compares favorable to multiple spells.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Also, why are children part of a lynch mob in your games?No television.hehe.
Anyway, i was basing what i said off of that commoners had a d6, max at 1st level, so 6 HP.
Ah, I got ya. Do you max out NPC & monster hit points? I thought the point was to give heroes an advantage there.
I am just asking. Despite the change in tone on these boards recently, I have never imagined myself to be Pelor's-gift-to-RPGs or a total moron. It is possible to be neither one nor the other. :-)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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This came up in one of our PbP using PRPG rules.
The party had captured and was interrogating a rogue/cleric after a chase that ended up in the marketplace. As the cleric had attacked a commoner with hopes that helping her would slow the party down, he'd ticked off most of the town. The PCs caught up with him, but the townsfolk wanted a piece of him too.
He allowed them to get close ... men, women, even a few children, closing in from all sides and then the sick little wretch unleashed a wave of negative energy.
I liked the potential for this but I wonder if the ability of a low-level cleric to take out a crowded marketplace is too much.
Likewise, hospitals need only to gather all the sick in one place and have Raymond the Low-Level channel positive energy.
Thoughts?
I'm with you, the flavour is enough for me to overlook the obvious advantage it gives to low-level clerics. I just love the idea of underground death cults sending peons to slaughter villages - that is a pretty cool fantasy trope and is now supported by the rules.
As a DM, I like it. I just see so many new roles for clerics emerging.
What group of bandits worth their salt wouldn't begin a raid by having "Aubrey the Malformed, Cleric of Lamashtu" walk up hands outstretched pretending to be begging for bread before unleashing a wave of negative energy? Well, I guess because they might not be particularly religious bandits...
I am just asking. Despite the change in tone on these boards recently, I have never imagined myself to be Pelor's-gift-to-RPGs or a total moron. It is possible to be neither one nor the other. :-)
We need more normals around, it's true.
Ah, I got ya. Do you max out NPC & monster hit points? I thought the point was to give heroes an advantage there.
The core rules (as depicted by Paizo in modules and in the MM, etc.) do not max out the first HD of monsters or NPC classes. I don't believe they max out PC class'd NPC's either, but would have to check.
So random d6 for commoners vs. random d6 channel energy. Average 50% staggered or unconscious. Of course they do go down to at least -10, so on average even a 3d6 channel wouldn't kill them. On average.
Take his unholy symbol!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Ah, I got ya. Do you max out NPC & monster hit points? I thought the point was to give heroes an advantage there.
The core rules (as depicted by Paizo in modules and in the MM, etc.) do not max out the first HD of monsters or NPC classes. I don't believe they max out PC class'd NPC's either, but would have to check.
So random d6 for commoners vs. random d6 channel energy. Average 50% staggered or unconscious. Of course they do go down to at least -10, so on average even a 3d6 channel wouldn't kill them. On average.
Take his unholy symbol!
And of course, there's a will save for half damage, so I figure 30-40% would be down though not yet dead (amount down would vary with the will save).
Of course, the party cleric can just unleash a wave of positive energy in an attempt to counter the negative energy. In my campaign, I think I would describe the effect as if the two waves of energy were competing (with damage rolls determining consequences) rather than: "They're down; no up; now down; up; down; and we are out of energy to channel ladies and gentlemen! It has been a tough match but ..."
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Ooo, ooo! Brainstorm!
How would you guys feel if Pathfinder introduced counter-channeling?
I got the idea from Tarren's "competing waves" comment. But literally, having two clerics call on the power of their gods at once and making opposed rolls to see who wins (maybe everybody, maybe no-one...mwahaha).
Something like this:
Counter-Channel
As a readied action, a cleric can attempt to counter the channeled energy of an opposing deity (regardless of the type of energy channeled). When you counter-channel, you make opposed caster level checks, adding your Charisma bonus to the roll.
The winner of the opposed roll then channels their energy as normal. In the case of a tie, the cleric with the higher Charisma bonus wins. If the result is still tied, there is a backlash of energy. Both clerics take damage equal to the amount of dice their own channeling would deal. A cleric cannot circumvent this damage by any means.
Also, I think it would be really cool to have the energy domains grant the ability to channel elemental energy in addition to your normal energy (this could replace the at-will rays, which I am not too fond of).
Elemental Channeling
A cleric who possesses the Air, Earth, Fire, or Water domains gains the ability to channel elemental energy, depending on their domain, in addition to their normal channeling ability. When channeling elemental energy, the cleric deals the same amount of dice of damage, and uses the same save DC. The save for half damage against elemental channeling is a Reflex save. The domains and their associated channeled element are as follows: Air (electricity), Earth (acid), Fire (fire), Water (cold).
Interesting idea but what that does is give 'good' clerics the ability to do area of effect damage and still do area of effect healing. But 'evil' clerics would be still be limited to only doing area of effect damage.
To keep this from being over powered clerics should only be able to substitute an elemental channeling for a positive or negative energy channeling and not just add more channelings per day.
Cheers
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Interesting idea but what that does is give 'good' clerics the ability to do area of effect damage and still do area of effect healing. But 'evil' clerics would be still be limited to only doing area of effect damage.
To keep this from being over powered clerics should only be able to substitute an elemental channeling for a positive or negative energy channeling and not just add more channelings per day.
Cheers
That's a fair trade (making them choose between positive/negative or elemental damage). But allow me to explain my original idea as well: I am suggesting eliminating the 1st level supernatural at-will elemental ray and replacing it with the elemental channeling. This will drain the characters resources while still providing a good cleric with a damaging ability, so the only "improvement" over PRPG is an increase in maximum potential damage at the trade of expending a limited daily resource instead of having an at-will ability.
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Well, I don't see anything in the Beta to suggest that NPCs don't get max Hp at 1st level, or the optional 1st level HP boosters.
I'd max the first hit die for commoners, but I don't know that I'd give them the racial bonus (we use the +4, +6, or +8 racial bonus HP option). If you did, though, your average commoner would have 12 HP (6 for commoner plus 6 for human). If you just use max HP, then he has 6 HP and doesn't die until -10 HP.
And in a crowded village, if there's an evil cleric, it's likely that you'll be able to find a good cleric to undo it.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Well, I don't see anything in the Beta to suggest that NPCs don't get max Hp at 1st level, or the optional 1st level HP boosters.
I'd max the first hit die for commoners, but I don't know that I'd give them the racial bonus (we use the +4, +6, or +8 racial bonus HP option). If you did, though, your average commoner would have 12 HP (6 for commoner plus 6 for human). If you just use max HP, then he has 6 HP and doesn't die until -10 HP.
And in a crowded village, if there's an evil cleric, it's likely that you'll be able to find a good cleric to undo it.
I'll have to check the Beta, but the DMG differentiates between elite and avearage. "Average characters, on the other hand, have average abilities (rolled on 3d6) and don't get maximum hit points from their first Hit Die" (p. 110).
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Ahh, there it is: ".... Determine the character’s total hit points
by assuming the average result" (Beta, p. 339).
Okay, so the potential is there for a 1st level evil cleric to cause some damage and make the local priest come running. I like that. Does it create problems for anyone?
That is indeed a very cool idea for playing evil clerics. If he manages to drop a marketplace of commoners into negative hp, then all of sudden the place is filled with dying people - sounds like a day for a cleric of an evil death god. Thats quite a different kind of crowd control.
A wizard can do as much damage with area spells, true. But snuffing out the life force directly is EVIL ("Apology accepted, Captain Needa").
Stefan
A wizard can do as much damage with area spells, true. But snuffing out the life force directly is EVIL ("Apology accepted, Captain Needa"). StefanAt first level?
hmm... that could be a bit much, true. But a fighter or barbarian can do A LOT of damage to villagers as well, even at first level. I did not compare the numbers, but I would guess that the damage potential is about as high as for the cleric.
Stefan
Assuming this is a known problem (i.e. that evil clerics have done this for centuries), what's to stop villages, towns and cities from protecting public places with certain magics that inhibit such negative energy, or at the least boost the saves of the locals?
That aside, I love the idea! It's evil, it's dramatic and few clerics with the ability are going to risk their lives. Unless it's an evil cleric in charge of a village, who routinely tortures and kills inhabitants with this ability so his wizard can animate their corpses.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Assuming this is a known problem (i.e. that evil clerics have done this for centuries), what's to stop villages, towns and cities from protecting public places with certain magics that inhibit such negative energy, or at the least boost the saves of the locals?
That's an interesting idea. Villages could be built close to natural holy places that inhibit negative energy.
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Assuming this is a known problem (i.e. that evil clerics have done this for centuries), what's to stop villages, towns and cities from protecting public places with certain magics that inhibit such negative energy, or at the least boost the saves of the locals?That's an interesting idea. Villages could be built close to natural holy places that inhibit negative energy.
Just from a role-playing aspect, too, this has an awful lot of "idea-grab" to it. Imagine villages that have no such magical defenses, but have been preyed upon before by a higher-level priest. The villagers might look into politely but firmly closing their gates to members of the clergy, refusing to accept magical healing for fear of what may happen, or even begin running clerics out of town at the first sight of a holy symbol.
I really like the sorts of story possibilities that could open up.
(EDIT: Sorry, that may be afield from the discussion you were hoping to bring up, as to whether it was correctly powered or not; if so, I apologize, but it was too cool an idea not to just throw that out over.)
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Here is one preventative in-world solution for what would become a favorite tactic of evil clerics:
Hallow
cleric 5, druid 5
40ft. radius
1,000gp in incense
First, the site or structure is guarded by a magic circle against evil effect.
Second, the DC to resist positive channeled energy within this area gains a +4 sacred bonus and the DC to resist negative energy is reduced by –4. Spell resistance does not apply to this effect. This provision does not apply to the druid version of the spell.
So, for 1,450gp, any town can get a hallow effect. This would probably standard procedure when founding a new town. Poor towns would have the market square, inn, or church (whatever is most popular) protected, while more prosperous towns would have multiple places, perhaps even all public spaces except streets.
The end result is that all creatures get +6 (+2 resistance, -4 penalty to rebuke DC). Considering the base DC for an average NPC cleric would be 13, that gives the commoners a good chance to save against the effect.
Ok, I'm not completely up to speed on this, but considering my love of playing clerics, couldn't you simply set the range on this to say 5 feet? And then possibly increase that range every other level (1, 3, 5, 7, etc...), or even more drawn out, make it every 3 levels (eg: 1, 4, 7, 10, etc...). This would reduce the area that a priest could effect with this. Granted that a high level priest could still effect a large area with negative or positive energy, but it is a bit restrictive.
On a side note, this honestly sounds like some MMO maneuver, I mean after a while priests get mass heal, or mass harm anyway, why change that?
- Jesthik
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Here is one preventative in-world solution for what would become a favorite tactic of evil clerics:
Hallow
cleric 5, druid 5
40ft. radius
1,000gp in incense
First, the site or structure is guarded by a magic circle against evil effect.
Second, the DC to resist positive channeled energy within this area gains a +4 sacred bonus and the DC to resist negative energy is reduced by –4. Spell resistance does not apply to this effect. This provision does not apply to the druid version of the spell.So, for 1,450gp, any town can get a hallow effect. This would probably standard procedure when founding a new town. Poor towns would have the market square, inn, or church (whatever is most popular) protected, while more prosperous towns would have multiple places, perhaps even all public spaces except streets.
The end result is that all creatures get +6 (+2 resistance, -4 penalty to rebuke DC). Considering the base DC for an average NPC cleric would be 13, that gives the commoners a good chance to save against the effect.
Love it.
DM: Cries awake you in the night. The innkeeper had promised you a quiet room in this sleepy little town, but it has become anything but. Men, women, and children yell as a voice booms from a rooftop: "The grey ones ride! The grey ones ride!! Gather in the temple! The grey ones ride!". Over the sounds of frightened cries, you hear the sound of hooves.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Ok, I'm not completely up to speed on this, but considering my love of playing clerics, couldn't you simply set the range on this to say 5 feet? And then possibly increase that range every other level (1, 3, 5, 7, etc...), or even more drawn out, make it every 3 levels (eg: 1, 4, 7, 10, etc...). This would reduce the area that a priest could effect with this. Granted that a high level priest could still effect a large area with negative or positive energy, but it is a bit restrictive.
On a side note, this honestly sounds like some MMO maneuver, I mean after a while priests get mass heal, or mass harm anyway, why change that?
- Jesthik
Hi Jesthik,
We are talking about an ability in Pathfinder Beta. It gives evil clerics, even low level ones, an interesting strategy.
Have you had a chance to check out the Pathfinder RPG yet? You should. Lots of fun.
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Love it.DM: Cries awake you in the night. The innkeeper had promised you a quiet room in this sleepy little town, but it has become anything but. Men, women, and children yell as a voice booms from a rooftop: "The grey ones ride! The grey ones ride!! Gather in the temple! The grey ones ride!". Over the sounds of frightened cries, you hear the sound of hooves.
Darn straight. Plus, you get the reverse:
Allvard strode forward, bearing the symbol of Sarenrae in his outstretched hand. He knew no fear - the sun god would protect him and his companions. Before him stood the vampire and her coven - mindless, though sadly once human. The night-creature hissed at the symbol of good, recoiling against a black slab behind her. Allvard called out for Sarenrae to destroy the corrupted flesh. A brilliant flash of golden light, then waves of radiance upon the undead. Blinking, Allvard heard before he saw: the beast was laughing at him! It was then Allvard saw the truth, for behind the vampires, painted in blood, was the symbol of Urgathoa. A chill ran through him, as the vampire raised a holy symbol of her own, and inky blackness spread forth towards the cleric and his friends...
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There is a Spell in Heroes of Horror, consumptive field if I am not mistaken, that really breaks the rules when combined with negative energy channelling.
Imagine absorbing all the life force of those villagers, gaining temporary strength bonuses that stack and hp.
Plus if you add the tomb-tainted soul feat then the evil cleric heals himself simultaneous to damaging his opponents.
Scary Stuff!
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Golarion Drow have some large-scale differences from what FR got me used to-- and as I haven't yet read any of the most recent AP, I couldn't say whether they're still a largely matriarchal society with a heavy emphasis toward the religious-- but this is exactly the sort of thing I could see Drow priestesses doing (and if so, why they would justifiably be scary as all get out).