The darker the better.
i think the Dark fantasy you seen in games like Dragon age origin and the like opens up for more roleplaying. i especially like the fact that the good chantry is also a tyranical orginasation... more like the reak church was in the middle ages, a bennefint to most commoners but also somthing to fear...especially if you happen to be an apostate mage
I spoilerized the first post.
Ross, would you mind fixing the thread title?
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I like Batman because he feels he has to do bad things to accomplish good things. I find those kind of moral dilemmas far more interesting. That is why I play CG. I am willing to do questionable activities if I believe the ends justify the means. But where is that line? How much bad can be justified? Just as is being argued in this thread…do you kill Hitler to save millions of other lives? I do not believe a LG character would, but I believe a CG character could. And dealing with his conscience afterward is a role playing playground for me.
no, the LG character will arrest him and take him to the authorities, bringing down any opposition he has in his way.
a LG character can also get the job done... just decides to stick to the rules... there is ane xample of this... i don't remember this Nicolas Cage movie where he and another soldier were commanded to guard 2 indian translators so the code will be keep secret...
the orders were "under NO circumstance should they fall into enemy hands, NO circumstance" to the point in which they both are tempted to kill this guys, Nicols Cage decides not to be friend of "his" indian because he knows feeligns would compromise hisfeeings, the other guy decides to be friend with "his" indian...
there comes the moment in which they are surrounded,... both of them being separated know they woudl fall, both think on his doing the duty and kill the translators... and BOTH chose to keep them alive, risking and loosing their lives to save the men they were ordered to care for... in the end the code is safe, that IS the LG option, its the hardest but gets the job done...
the same with the guy with hitler... he would DO anything in his power to bring him to justice... if its impossible he would blow them both, but not before it being really impossible.
moral choices are hard... but they are supposed to be so, which is why many complain that good brings nothing at all :P check the threads of those complaining for the paladin to be LG or having a code...
so... the issue is.. if i want to play a paragon of Virtue, that doesn't compromise his moral code, to the point of going alone and confronting the bad guy so his friends have the chance of beating him in other way... how is that bad?
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I love Paizo and generally love pretty much everything they do.
I will say, however, that I don't share their fondness for demons and devils and would prefer to see a little less reliance on such creatures.
I do agree that villains are more interesting when they are multi dimensional ... actually ANY character, villain or hero, is more interesting when they are multi dimensional and yes, flawed.
The "you have to make a deal with the devil", "you have to work with evil forces in order to accomplish the greater good" "you have to do evil or vile things in order to accomplish the greater good" etc. plots are certainly interesting, but maybe Paizo is going to this well a little too often?
Maybe, as others have suggested, it's time for a little more of a "our heroes need to do a bunch of heroic stuff and fight, kill or otherwise defeat the evil dudes in order to accomplish the greater good" AP plot. Grey area and moral ambiguity are fine from time to time, but it should probably be a spice, not a staple.
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excuse y ignorance, and the fact that i am not native speaker... but... whar is wrong with the title?I spoilerized the first post.Ross, would you mind fixing the thread title?
the 'I' in 'side' is capitalized. Mairkurion, you definitely don't want to look at the thread name in the address bar then.
the 'I' in 'side' is capitalized.
Sounds like the title of a self-help book about improving one's self-esteem. :)
ADD: Yeah, Mark, one marketed by postie-toasties that don't know moral philosophy from their...uh...elbow.
no, the LG character will arrest him and take him to the authorities, bringing down any opposition he has in his way.
I am talking about if you could go back in time before Hitler gained power. How do you convince the authorities to punish him for something you can not prove he will ever do?
a LG character can also get the job done
I am not sure I am convinced of this. Some times, there are bad laws. Slavery use to be legal and it was considered theft to free a slave. Does the LG character do the 'right' thing or obey the law?
a LG character can also get the job doneI am not sure I am convinced of this. Some times, there are bad laws. Slavery use to be legal and it was considered theft to free a slave. Does the LG character do the 'right' thing or obey the law?
A LG person would be working to end slavery by working within the legal system and get the laws changed and slavery abolished. A NG or CG person would be working outside the law when necessary by freeing slaves and taking them to a place where there is no slavery.
WARNING
Hey guys, great discussion! Use spoiler tags when spilling entire plots on novels, AP adventures, etc. If it has a plot, and that plot can be spoiled for someone, USE A SPOILER TAG. :-)
If you don't know how to use a spoiler tag, then click reply to this message, scroll down a touch, and click the button that says "Show." It will teach you about the mystery of the spoiler tag.
Also fixed the title. Ugh.
Very interesting thread. And, while it occurs to me I could write a complete novel (seriously!) on this topic and drop it like a bomb into this post, I'm going to exercise a little restraint and only say this...
I get what the OP pointed out. Every AP has had some moment (no matter how small) where the PCs are presented with a choice and it doesn't always feel like a choice, per se, in that they have to use, ally, or consort with evil in order to accomplish a greater good. And, while that kind of story (even if it's just a small side trek or encounter in the grand scheme of the whole AP) can prove interesting, it can also become overused.
Has Paizo hit that point yet? Does it matter if they have, as long as their flagship product (i.e., Pathfinder APs) keeps selling? I don't think so.
I will say, however, that I do prefer heroic storylines where the heroes get to be good. They may occasionally face some moral dilemma...and I love weaving in opportunities where one of the PCs might be tempted away from such a path (or if they're already neutral or not-quite good, it gives them a chance to explore the dark side of their personality in the course of the adventure)...but, in the end, I like for the heroes to come out on top by being good and not having to overly sully themselves by lowering their standards.
In addition, I love dropping in good allies in the course of an adventure for heroes to draw strength from...either as mentors, redeemable people who the PCs can inspire, or do-gooders who got bested by the villain and his minions and now need someone else to carry the banner to foil his evil plan. To me, that makes for good stuff. And that's in equal measure to any situations where evil NPCs can be turned against their master or encouraged to "eat their own" as those of an evil nature sometimes do.
I will say, however, that I try to be very careful I don't introduce a do-gooder NPC who outstrips the PCs. In the end, I want to make sure an adventure is crafted so each PC gets to play the ultimate hero role. They should be the "lead dog" in that regard. But, it's cool to have scenes and encounters where a good NPC can aid them or make things easier for them if they take the time to cultivate a friendship with them.
In short (too late!), I try to mix in as many elements as I can from all these ingredients. For instance, in Realm of the Fellnight Queen (plug!), I made a conscious effort to include the conclave of good fey who can assist (but not overshadow) the PCs in their efforts to oppose Rhoswen. In addition, there's a handful of other neutral or good-aligned benefactors they can interact with that helps their cause. And lastly, there's even a redeemable, misguided "villain" in the form of Tenzekil the bleachling gnome who could help them toward the end of the adventure. But whether any of those things happen or not is all predicated on the choices the players through their PCs' interactions. I also did some similar things with my Kingmaker turnover (plug!), though we'll have to wait and see how much of that makes it through the editing process.
To me, that makes for the best storytelling approach. And, it makes for the best adventure designs, too, because moments like that stand out. They make the players who want to play heroic characters feel good because they have opportunities to not only oppose the bad guys, but also help the good guys...and they don't have to compromise their morals along the way. Instead, they get to roleplay the morals they purposefully defined for their PC.
So, in retrospect...it looks like I wrote a "novel" anyway. Actually, maybe it's more of a novella. Because I could easily explore this subject a LOT more. But, I've got some adventures to write. And, rest assured, I'm going to look for ways to let the heroes be heroes. Hopefully, the powers-that-be at Paizo like that aspect of my writing-style. And the customers, too.
But that's just my two-cents,
--Neil
I am talking about if you could go back in time before Hitler gained power. How do you convince the authorities to punish him for something you can not prove he will ever do?
You've answered your own moral "dilemma". If he's not done anything, he ought not be punished.
I am not sure I am convinced of this. Some times, there are bad laws. Slavery use to be legal and it was considered theft to free a slave. Does the LG character do the 'right' thing or obey the law?
Good trumps Lawful in the paladin code as implied by the inclusion of the concept of "legitimate authority". It has long been understood that "an unjust law is not a law," to quote Thomas Aquinas. Compliance with an unjust law then becomes a matter of individual conscience.
So, the paladin could perhaps in good conscience tolerate the slavery around him (using "tolerate" in its proper sense meaning "putting up with that which is evil").
Of course, this assumes you're talking about chattel slavery. Other forms of slavery may be distasteful to us "enlightened" moderns, but they aren't as clearly evil. For example, indentured servitude was a form of voluntary slavery. Slavery was also a criminal punishment combined with incarceration. Neither of these is obviously evil in and of themselves.
Yeah, interesting thread, guys. And a big thank-you to Mr. Frost.
Grey area and moral ambiguity are fine from time to time, but it should probably be a spice, not a staple.
I agree with Marc's last statement; having and exploring the grey area is important, but unless you see the black and white at least as often as the grey, the grey area ends becoming the default "this is how i react" new moral standard, thus removing the moral ambiguity it was intended to be.
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no, the LG character will arrest him and take him to the authorities, bringing down any opposition he has in his way.I am talking about if you could go back in time before Hitler gained power. How do you convince the authorities to punish him for something you can not prove he will ever do?
why do you need to kill him?
if he is a troubled soul, help him solve his problems, show him a proper path... be his friend aid, companion, advisor... immagine hitler with his charisma how much GOOD would have been able to do if pointed in the right way?still we satanise the man because he lose... if he had won... the world would satanize Churchill and Roosbelt because they confronted him (I don't mention Stalin... he is his own issues.. yet in those times he was also a hero)
a LG character can also get the job doneI am not sure I am convinced of this. Some times, there are bad laws. Slavery use to be legal and it was considered theft to free a slave. Does the LG character do the 'right' thing or obey the law?
LG doesn not condone slavery... that is LN thing.
if you have the medium then you as LG buy the slave and set it free within the law.. if no, you find a way to convince the slaver to free them... if not... the only thign byy law is to make slaves's life easier...in asociety where this is common a LG will not own slaves and the ones he meet he will threat properly, it all comes to upbringing... in a society where slavery is part of the economical way there is no much option except look for alternatives... when there is none found well.. then threat them as well as you can, in roman society some slaves were threated as family and friends, yet they were not free... ROME from HBO illustrates this beautifully in the relationship between Caesar and his slave, he was an slave, yet he was wise and prudent and Caesar thrusted him implictly... more tan some of his generals.
obviously a LG character will stop an slave of being punished jsut by the pleasure of it... an owner can do what he wants with his property, but others would be confronted with a crime... still in some societies where slavery existed the Law said that slaves whould not be mistreated...
besides... what use was to render useful an inversion?
You've answered your own moral "dilemma". If he's not done anything, he ought not be punished.
For you. I still put a bullet between his eyes. If that makes me evil, so be it. I should point out that I am generally against killing. I would agree it is an evil act regardless of motive. For me, in this situation, it is the lesser of two evils.
Good trumps Lawful in the paladin code as implied by the inclusion of the concept of "legitimate authority". It has long been understood that "an unjust law is not a law," to quote Thomas Aquinas. Compliance with an unjust law then becomes a matter of individual conscience.
So I guess I have been closer to LG than I thought.
Going way beyond this thread here, but…
I believe Compassion is more important than Truth, Justice or 'the law'. I guess, in the end, it really comes down to how you prioritize virtues.
still we satanise the man because he lose...
That is not why I demonize him.
You bring up good points. If I thought there were a chance I could 'rehabilitate' Hitler, sure, I would take it. In the end, though, I think the millions of lives saved would be worth his.
Good is quite defined by morality, and I always try to NOT use our current worldwide morality where killing is simple NOT GOOD, no matter the point of view (well, not all religions apply). So I try to apply a morality based on the God ethos, so if you are a paladin worshiper of a righteous god then going around killing orcs just because they are orc("evil" orcs) is not wrong at all. If fact, quite encouraged and you may even get godly bonus on how many orcs you kill...
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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obviously a LG character will stop an slave of being punished jsut by the pleasure of it... an owner can do what he wants with his property, but others would be confronted with a crime... still in some societies where slavery existed the Law said that slaves whould not be mistreated...
besides... what use was to render useful an inversion?
Just curious Montalve,
What would your theoritcal character do in Second Darkness when he sees a Drow beating a commoner for fun? Or a human slave?
My Lawful Good would try to talk him out of it, but when that fails is the mission more important? Would he lay on hands while relying on the rest of the party to distract the slaver? How does the LG handle that? I mean I know the limits of my campaign, just wondering what your answer would be.
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I like the choices presented in the modules. It makes things more interesting for my group. In fact I wish they would take it forward another step and make an AP designed for EVIL players with neat plot hooks based on the opposite. Roleplaying redemption or the total falling to chaos is some quality stuff.
love,
malkav
I believe Compassion is more important than Truth, Justice or 'the law'.
Maybe so, but Compassion with Truth and Justice leads to state-sponsored killing of those deemed worthy of the first but not worthy of the other two. This has been demonstrated repeatedly throughout history.
And, to be honest, I'd probably cap Hitler as well, but that wouldn't make it right, and I have to live with the consequences. That's life.
Reminds of shortly after 9-11. I worked with a nun who was very worried that the U.S. was on the verge of WWIII. (She was convinced the Russians would escalate to assist Afghanistan.) I commented that I didn't know about that, but that given an M-16 and a 100 meters, I'd put a bullet in bin Laden and then go have a beer.
Alignements are guidelines, not absolute barriers.
Characters are not programmed droids.
The are many ways to play evil, the same way there is many ways to play good.
There are even many ways to play lawful good and paladins.
If you consider the Arthurian myth, Arthur, Galahad, Gawain, Lancelot and Perceval are all supposed to be lawful good, and still they have very different personalities, some of them even sometimes clashing (like Gawain and Lancelot).
Good is quite defined by morality, and I always try to NOT use our current worldwide morality where killing is simple NOT GOOD, no matter the point of view....
If you think that's the "current worldwide morality" then I humbly submit you were not paying attention to the 20th century.
If you think that's the "current worldwide morality" then I humbly submit you were not paying attention to the 20th century.
Hehe
Maybe so, but Compassion with Truth and Justice leads to state-sponsored killing of those deemed worthy of the first but not worthy of the other two.
Acknowledged. For me, just because I say Compassion is more important does not mean Truth and Justice should be tossed aside like refuse.
And, to be honest, I'd probably cap Hitler as well, but that wouldn't make it right, and I have to live with the consequences.
So, does that make you LG, CG or something else (ignoring any other real life virtue/flaws you may or may not posses)?
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I believe Compassion is more important than Truth, Justice or 'the law'. I guess, in the end, it really comes down to how you prioritize virtues.
Compassion does not have to be antithetical to Law. To think that it does is reflective in the game of Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good.
Many of us Lawful Good types recognize that there are higher laws than those of man and that it is never wrong (unlawful) to do what is right.
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Good is quite defined by morality, and I always try to NOT use our current worldwide morality where killing is simple NOT GOOD, no matter the point of view....If you think that's the "current worldwide morality" then I humbly submit you were not paying attention to the 20th century.
And yet the 20th century was one of the most peaceful in world history.
When the archeologist Lawrence Keeley examined casualty rates among contemporary hunter-gatherers—which is the best picture we have of how people might have lived 10,000 years ago—he discovered that the likelihood that a man would die at the hands of another man ranged from a high of 60 percent in one tribe to 15 percent at the most peaceable end. In contrast, the chance that a European or American man would be killed by another man was less than 1 percent during the 20th century, a period of time that includes both world wars. If the death rate of tribal warfare had prevailed in the 20th century, there would have been 2 billion deaths rather than 100 million, horrible as that is.
Makes one realize just how bad it can really get.
Creative Director
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As for chaotic neutral, I do try to make sure that when you have a monster that's actually evil, such as a baby eater, then that monster SHOULD be evil.
In the case of the Mother of Flies... I suspect that either the bit about her eating kids was an unfounded rumor... or it's just a goof.
I'm fond of both lawful neutral and chaotic neutral as bad guy alignments, but if something's evil, it should be evil. In the case of the Mother of Flies... she was intended to not be EEEEVIL as much as she was chaotic. And the intent there, as I mentioned above, was that there's a lot of legend and rumor about her that's not 100% accurate.
Now I'm confused.
** spoiler omitted **
It's okay... so was I. I didn't have the adventure handy late last night, and probably should have waited to post until I did.
So, does that make you LG, CG or something else (ignoring any other real life virtue/flaws you may or may not posses)?
It makes me human. A single action doesn't define a character's alignment. Alignment in the game serves two functions:
1. It is a predictor of how a creature is likely to act.
2. It is the result of the creature's past actions considered as a whole.
Go back to the silly example of the paladin given the ultimatum to either murder a child or else watch the BBEG destroy an entire city. It is possible the paladin makes the wrong choice and murders the child. If so, the paladin commits an evil act. He is now an ex-paladin.
But does his alignment change? No. One evil act does not an evil person make, especially an evil act performed under duress.
Later on, the paladin escapes the BBEG and returns to the city to find out it had already been destroyed before the child was murdered. Among the few survivors, he finds a cleric who casts atonement on the paladin. Since he doesn't have the "2,500 gp in rare incense and offerings," he regains his paladinhood contingent upon hunting down and destroying the BBEG, retrieving the murdered child's corpse, and then questing into the Afterworld to restore the lad to life.
:)
Compassion does not have to be antithetical to Law.
Oh, absolutely! In a perfect world, it is not.
[snark]…but you don't get XPs for building things.[/snark]You do in Kingmaker.
I am not familiar with that product. Is it an adventure path or a single adventure? How much are the rewards? Are they comparable to killing a bunch of stuff?
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Creative Director
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I am not familiar with that product. Is it an adventure path or a single adventure? How much are the rewards? Are they comparable to killing a bunch of stuff?[snark]…but you don't get XPs for building things.[/snark]You do in Kingmaker.
Kingmaker is the next adventure path after Council of Thieves. It starts later this month (or maybe early next month). In it, the PCs are tasked with exploring and settling a swath of wilderness in the River Kingdoms, and eventually establish and rule a kingdom. They get XP for exploring and building cities and building their kingdom, in addition to normal adventuring stuff. They ARE comparable to killing a bunch of stuff, though... building cities and exploring and creating nations are as important in Kingmaker as anything else.
Also: There's not a big element of demons or devils in Kingmaker. The villians are generally more in the category of bandits, barbarians, trolls, and fey.
Kingmaker is the next adventure path after Council of Thieves. It starts later this month (or maybe early next month). In it, the PCs are tasked with exploring and settling a swath of wilderness in the River Kingdoms, and eventually establish and rule a kingdom. They get XP for exploring and building cities and building their kingdom, in addition to normal adventuring stuff. They ARE comparable to killing a bunch of stuff, though... building cities and exploring and creating nations are as important in Kingmaker as anything else.
Also: There's not a big element of demons or devils in Kingmaker. The villians are generally more in the category of bandits, barbarians, trolls, and fey.
And this AP is stacking up to be one of my favorites, from everything I'm hearing!
Also: There's not a big element of demons or devils in Kingmaker. The villians are generally more in the category of bandits, barbarians, trolls, and fey.
Which, I'm guessing, need killing and their stuff taken.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I am not familiar with that product. Is it an adventure path or a single adventure? How much are the rewards? Are they comparable to killing a bunch of stuff?[snark]…but you don't get XPs for building things.[/snark]You do in Kingmaker.
They are.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Also: There's not a big element of demons or devils in Kingmaker. The villians are generally more in the category of bandits, barbarians, trolls, and fey.Which, I'm guessing, need killing and their stuff taken.
Your guess would be sometimes correct and sometimes incorrect. There is hacking, slashing, and looting aplenty to be found, but a lot of other stuff as well.
Your guess seems founded on an assumption that all challenges, tasks, and opportunities for adventure in this AP come in the form of "villains."
I'll just say it like this: There's more to raising a kingdom than punching some bad guys in the face.
They are.
Color me intrigued.
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Creative Director
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Also: There's not a big element of demons or devils in Kingmaker. The villians are generally more in the category of bandits, barbarians, trolls, and fey.Which, I'm guessing, need killing and their stuff taken.
I can't tell if you're being jokey or what... but: That's pretty much what the game was built to do, you know. If you're looking to completely replace the "kill things and take their stuff," you should look for a different game is all I'm saying. ;-)
Also, your guess seems founded on an assumption that all challenges, tasks, and opportunities for adventure in this AP come in the form of "villains."
Well, sadly, that is based on my personal experience with D&D.
Even when an adventure or even a GM breaks this mold and grants XP for things other than killing and stealing, it is often little more than an after-thought.
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Compassion does not have to be antithetical to Law.Oh, absolutely! In a perfect world, it is not.
Compassion is never antithetical to Law in my world, which I assume is the same as your world. And it's far from perfect.
I think the misconception is the assumption that being lawful means that one believes all laws are good. But this is wrong. Bad men make bad laws. Good men feel no necessary compulsion to follow laws that command them to do wrong. The assumption is that there is a greater law that trumps the laws of these men. In other words, speaking as one who would catagorize himself as lawful good, goodness is always lawful. There is never a conflict here, except in the misguided minds of men.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Also, your guess seems founded on an assumption that all challenges, tasks, and opportunities for adventure in this AP come in the form of "villains."Well, sadly, that is based on my personal experience with D&D.
Even when an adventure or even a GM breaks this mold and grants XP for things other than killing and stealing, it is often little more than an after-thought.
Are you still bitter because last time we played, I killed you and took your stuff? I told you I was sorry...
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still we satanise the man because he lose...That is not why I demonize him.
You bring up good points. If I thought there were a chance I could 'rehabilitate' Hitler, sure, I would take it. In the end, though, I think the millions of lives saved would be worth his.
ohh you do.. incosciently but you do.. you know the story that was told to us (wether is true or not is not part of this argument, just the fact that it exist) if Hitler had won the story would have been different
in the same dilema Churchill would be evil ebcause he let thousands or millions of britsh die instead of merely surrendering like France did...
yes... but a bullet is only the expedite way... not the right one... the right one takes effort and time most would not take... because its easier just to kill, even when we are against it.
yet the evil is in the yet of the beholder... and the horror becomes personal.. when one must chose to take a tought choice... its not only what would do more good... what will save my soul... but what is right.
...if Hitler had won the story would have been different
But the moral of the story would remain the same.
:p
If it's as good as it sounds, this might be the first AP I purchase :) What great themes!
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obviously a LG character will stop an slave of being punished jsut by the pleasure of it... an owner can do what he wants with his property, but others would be confronted with a crime... still in some societies where slavery existed the Law said that slaves whould not be mistreated...
besides... what use was to render useful an inversion?
Just curious Montalve,
What would your theoritcal character do in Second Darkness when he sees a Drow beating a commoner for fun? Or a human slave?
My Lawful Good would try to talk him out of it, but when that fails is the mission more important? Would he lay on hands while relying on the rest of the party to distract the slaver? How does the LG handle that? I mean I know the limits of my campaign, just wondering what your answer would be.
interesting question... i don't know how long Jordan could put with the facade :S... I always though that if the opportunity presented itself i would play with a different character.. but considering her
the questions would go the point... does the beating will kill the victim?
In our original party, Jordan's companions would have taken her away from there before blowing everyones cover...
With a little of thought if the commoner would not die from the beating she will heal them after the fact (which considering the drow culture would be akin to blowing their cover) and move on...
if there is no way to stop the beating and it brings the victims death unless blowing the cover to save the world... she will be damned... I can see her stabbing her arm until the pain take her mind of the sittuation,memorizing both faces... 1 to pray for the victim's soul... 2) to remember who is she going to go medieval with after the deed is done and the worls is saved, then Justice would be done.
still if neededbe she can intimidate people... she might not be a good lier... but she can compel pretty goodthe idea that she don't like somethings and make people stop them. (high charisma, high diplomacy, moderately high intimidate... and high sense motive to know when it would be stupid to do something)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Also, your guess seems founded on an assumption that all challenges, tasks, and opportunities for adventure in this AP come in the form of "villains."Well, sadly, that is based on my personal experience with D&D.
Even when an adventure or even a GM breaks this mold and grants XP for things other than killing and stealing, it is often little more than an after-thought.
No real argument with the premise - as James said, D&D ultimately IS all about killing monsters and taking their stuff. That's the heart of the game.
That said, this AP represents a thoroughgoing effort to create an adventure scenario that is sandboxy in all the good ways. There IS an overall narrative in the background, but it's not on a fast timer, as it is mostly keyed to respond to the progress that the PCs make. In the course of time, they will create their own allies and enemies through their actions and choices.
The AP is designed to give characters time to do all those little things we like to think about our characters doing but usually don't because:
a. There's no REAL reward for doing it; and,
b. There's no time to do it because the REAL adventure is coming on a fast train!
Kingmaker is an effort to remedy that, so there are real rewards, both tangible in-character rewards and also pure meta-game rewards like XP, for doing the things that your characters would logically want to do in a scenario where they have a chance to carve a kingdom out of the wilderness without worrying about whether the world is going to end in the next six weeks.
Are there monsters? Yes. Absolutely. There is stuff to kill and loot to pillage. There is danger, but hopefully your characters will feel like they have the opportunity and the motivation to spread their wings in some new and different ways without being penalized for doing it!