Gods can die, but not at PCs' hands. Unless we get Epic rules and statblocks for the gods.
Just because you're playing epic doesn't mean the gods have stat blocks.
No stat blocks for gods in my campaign, and the PC levels range from 48 to 58.
I have no comment on who the end bosses are. Ears are listening :)
stuff
I thought killing things that were evil was a Paladin's bread & butter. Does it change if they're human? That Paladin is a jerk then.
As far as those "do this or die" scenarios, they don't exist. Ever. That's the whole point of the game, you can do whatever you want and if you're creative enough you might even succeed in the face of superior might. It's possible, for example, to convince a superior that you did something you have not done. Particularly when magic is involved.
Or take the easy way, but don't pretend you had no choice.
"In my experience, the "moral dilemmas" in the APs I've noticed are never provided with an alternative choice."
They provide the choices made available by NPCs. Providing details of all the things PCs might do was never an agreement that Paizo entered into. You expect too much.
stuffI thought killing things that were evil was a Paladin's bread & butter. Does it change if they're human? That Paladin is a jerk then.
As far as those "do this or die" scenarios, they don't exist. Ever. That's the whole point of the game, you can do whatever you want and if you're creative enough you might even succeed in the face of superior might. It's possible, for example, to convince a superior that you did something you have not done. Particularly when magic is involved.
Or take the easy way, but don't pretend you had no choice.
"In my experience, the "moral dilemmas" in the APs I've noticed are never provided with an alternative choice."
They provide the choices made available by NPCs. Providing details of all the things PCs might do was never an agreement that Paizo entered into. You expect too much.
I, like the OP and several other posters, expect an actual, functional choice. Not just "do this. If you do something else, you'll have to rewrite vast swathes of the AP."
But, maybe I do expect too much. I don't write adventures for publication. I'd expect adventures for publication to not be as closed-ended as my experiences with them have been. One of the reasons I seldom buy them. If I'm doing all the work anyway, why pay for it?
To clarify my last post, I'm not just talking about Paizo products. I'm also talking about every pre-published adventure I've ever purchased or played in. The only pre-published adventures that I've seen/run/played in that really jived in a good way with my play experiences were the adventures located in the back of the Bubblegum Crisis RPG books. I was as surprised as most everyone else in my gaming circle.
I still may try my hand at Carrion Hill at some point, since I went ahead and bought it despite my general distrust of prepublished adventures.
I, like the OP and several other posters, expect an actual, functional choice. Not just "do this. If you do something else, you'll have to rewrite vast swathes of the AP."
You expect Paizo to tell you, "Rogues can often go places unseen and tell convincing lies, arcane casters frequently have access to illusions and divination, etc..."?
How do you have to rewrite vast swaths of anything?
Evil Outsider: "Make a deal with me and I'll give you power to fight the big bad."
Paladin: "That doesn't sound like my thing, we'll just fight him with our existing abilities."
Evil Outsider: "It will be harder, maybe impossible!"
Paladin: "I didn't become a paladin because it seemed easy. PS: Smite."
EDIT
I will agree with you that most modules aren't worth picking up. Some definitely are, the Ravenloft module springs to mind. (Speaking of which, I played a paladin in Ravenloft; Paizo isn't being nearly as mean as that game was.)
I typically feel that Paizo does a better job of it, but the realm of opinions is fraught with dischord.
|
But, maybe I do expect too much. I don't write adventures for publication. I'd expect adventures for publication to not be as closed-ended as my experiences with them have been. One of the reasons I seldom buy them. If I'm doing all the work anyway, why pay for it?
What if your players decide to ignore all the adventure hooks and go do something else outside the module/adventure path? Are you going to get PO'd and decry the module/adventure path as useless?
The publishers only allow so many words, the writers do what they can, and they generally do it well enough for most people. While you may have a bad experience, not everyone else has. Try King Maker, it's the new AP and the adventure models look like they would suit you and your group perfectly.
stuffAs far as those "do this or die" scenarios, they don't exist. Ever. That's the whole point of the game, you can do whatever you want and if you're creative enough you might even succeed in the face of superior might. It's possible, for example, to convince a superior that you did something you have not done. Particularly when magic is involved.
Or take the easy way, but don't pretend you had no choice.
"In my experience, the "moral dilemmas" in the APs I've noticed are never provided with an alternative choice."
They provide the choices made available by NPCs. Providing details of all the things PCs might do was never an agreement that Paizo entered into. You expect too much.
I thought I'd throw this thought out in regards to the "Convince a superior that you did something you have not done," as I'm assuming that the poster was suggesting that the Paladin claim that his torturing was successful when he, in fact, did not actually torture anyone.
a paladin's code requires that she ... act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Lying about how you tortured someone when you didn't would be a violation of their code. So is lying about being a Drow, actually... Just something else that struck me after the fact.
Lying about how you tortured someone when you didn't would be a violation of their code. So is lying about being a Drow...
Can't we just be eeeveil?!?
Oops, wrong thread.
So is lying about being a Drow, actually... Just something else that struck me after the fact.
I'm pretty sure that one wouldn't really need to lie about being a drow in that adventure.
Unless, one counts the fact that the you are still making people think that you are a drow as a lie because you aren't actively admitting that you are a paladin in disguise.
Which I guess is the GM's call, but in that case, I would say that it is more the GM making being a paladin a bad idea, rather than the adventure.
--
I think I would have liked playing a paladin in Second Darkness.
I would abide by the code as best I could, refusing to torture a prisoner if I were asked. The adventure does penalize failing in one's duties, but I believe that there is still ample room to successfully complete the adventure as described. I might still lose my powers due to a mistake or my lack of abilities, but that is something I'm fine with. Atonement is there for me to repent for my error.
Although, I can imagine some random GM deciding that the adventure is a good moment to force a no win decision where I either lose my paladin powers or die, it isn't the adventure I would be uncomfortable with. I would be unlikely to really consider playing a paladin under that GM in any case.
|
Lying about how you tortured someone when you didn't would be a violation of their code. So is lying about being a Drow, actually... Just something else that struck me after the fact.
Now i am curious outside of the scope of this discussion. What would the gods of the paladin would say about the subject ? If the paladin used magic to ask his deity about orientation, what would be a resonate answer to give to the players ? (Remember the world ending scenario)
I've only played through the majority of Second Darkness, but I've read the first CotCT module and played through a most of the first module of LoF.
Honestly, looking at Endless Night and the others...
** spoiler omitted **...
Answering your spoiler, ... in spoilers. :)
The module even instructs DMs to "ease up on the alignment watch; keep in mind that what faces the world is a pretty catastrophic event... A paladin might not approve of working for someone who performs living sacrifices and worships demons, but in order to stop an even greater evil, a paladin sometimes has to bide his time... don't forget that atonement is a pretty handy spell for cleansing the soul. The elves sent the PCs into the Darklands; the least they'll be able to do in the next adventure is provide a few free castings if necessary." Of course, the same section also mentions "Offer the PCs any reward - you probably won't have to actually pay it since the PCs are unlikely to revisit the Mierani Forest..."
One of the ironies here is that the characters most able to complete this part of the Adventure Path are the ones least likely to take it.
"Less then good" characters are quite likely to react poorly to being treated in a shabby manner.
But, coming from Riddleport, of all places, the party is very likely to fall strongly in the "Neutral to Evil" range.
Quite frankly, this is a problem with this adventure path. The beginning of CotCT has a really weird hook - Everyone gets together and decides to go kill someone who's done them wrong. Paladins, honestly, need not apply there, either. At least not from my reading of it. Which is funny, since a Paladin's the iconic on the cover of the module.
Not completely true.
The heroes do "theoretically" have the option of taking Lamm into custody. While the Guard does not have the resources to hunt him down, his many crimes would guarentee him a conviction - and an almost certain death sentence.
Lying about how you tortured someone when you didn't would be a violation of their code. So is lying about being a Drow, actually... Just something else that struck me after the fact.Now i am curious outside of the scope of this discussion. What would the gods of the paladin would say about the subject ? If the paladin used magic to ask his deity about orientation, what would be a resonate answer to give to the players ? (Remember the world ending scenario)
1)Paladin's do not get the abilities from a deity, therefore a deity has no say on whether a paladin loses her abilities. A deity could act through a cleric to return them, but not stop them from being lost in the first place.
2)If you are using PF rules and not 3.5 rules then it is even worse, in 3.5 you fell for "grossly" violating your code of conduct, which gave you a little wiggle room. In PF, the "grossly" has been removed and so any violation, even a small one, even for the greater good, will still cause a paladin to fall.
Creative Director
|
While I agree that a paladin would have a tough time with Second Darkness (particularly the 4th part), this is more a design problem with the paladin (or to be more precise, a problem with players and GMS not understanding the complexities of the paladin's design) than it is with the adventure, which I think is quite creative and interesting.
If you're the GM and there's a paladin in your group, it's YOUR responsibility to not only enforce divine retribution if a paladin falls from grace, but ALSO to know when to not punish a paladin. If a paladin enjoys and wallows in his non-paladin stuff, then he'll be in trouble. If a paladin is faced with tough decisions and has to settle for lesser evils (such as lying in order to infiltrate an evil society to learn about their nefarious plans... as is the case in this adventure), if he feels guilty and tormented about it and does his best under those strictures to adhere to his vows nevertheless... the WORST thing that should happen to the paladin is that if he doesn't seek out an atonement spell when all is over he should probably lose some paladin powers. In that case... it's not the lying that got him, it's the fact that he HAD to lie but then never bothered or cared to atone for the lie once things had been resolved.
Deities and paladin codes are NOT on-off situations. Like humans, they're capable of seeing the shades of gray and coping with adjustments and strains to the system. The class isn't intended to give GMs and other players ammo to ruin the game for the guy playing the class... but the guy playing the class should go in with eyes open and ready to accept the challenge of playing the HARDEST class to roleplay in the entire game.
In closing, treating the paladin's code as hard and fast rules like those for grappling or swinging weapons is playing the game wrong, pure and simple. A paladin's code should be treated more like alignment; it's not something that you can codify everything with a strict and unwavering read of the rules.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Deities and paladin codes are NOT on-off situations. Like humans, they're capable of seeing the shades of gray and coping with adjustments and strains to the system.
Heh. If only that were true of all humans, we wouldn't even have to have arguments about paladins in the first place...
While I agree that a paladin would have a tough time with Second Darkness (particularly the 4th part), this is more a design problem with the paladin (or to be more precise, a problem with players and GMS not understanding the complexities of the paladin's design) than it is with the adventure, which I think is quite creative and interesting.
If you're the GM and there's a paladin in your group, it's YOUR responsibility to not only enforce divine retribution if a paladin falls from grace, but ALSO to know when to not punish a paladin. If a paladin enjoys and wallows in his non-paladin stuff, then he'll be in trouble. If a paladin is faced with tough decisions and has to settle for lesser evils (such as lying in order to infiltrate an evil society to learn about their nefarious plans... as is the case in this adventure), if he feels guilty and tormented about it and does his best under those strictures to adhere to his vows nevertheless... the WORST thing that should happen to the paladin is that if he doesn't seek out an atonement spell when all is over he should probably lose some paladin powers. In that case... it's not the lying that got him, it's the fact that he HAD to lie but then never bothered or cared to atone for the lie once things had been resolved.
Deities and paladin codes are NOT on-off situations. Like humans, they're capable of seeing the shades of gray and coping with adjustments and strains to the system. The class isn't intended to give GMs and other players ammo to ruin the game for the guy playing the class... but the guy playing the class should go in with eyes open and ready to accept the challenge of playing the HARDEST class to roleplay in the entire game.
In closing, treating the paladin's code as hard and fast rules like those for grappling or swinging weapons is playing the game wrong, pure and simple. A paladin's code should be treated more like alignment; it's not something that you can codify everything with a strict and unwavering read of the rules.
Ironicly, removing the word "grossly" from the paladin entry actually moves the application in exactly the opposite direction that you are arguing here. Now, as per the RAW, any violation of the code causes a fall, whereas before only gross violations of the code cause falls (or doing an evil act). I think this is a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing.
...While I agree that a paladin would have a tough time with Second Darkness (particularly the 4th part), this is more a design problem with the paladin (or to be more precise, a problem with players and GMS not understanding the complexities of the paladin's design) than it is with the adventure, which I think is quite creative and interesting.
If you're the GM and there's a paladin in your group, it's YOUR responsibility to not only enforce divine retribution if a paladin falls from grace, but ALSO to know when to not punish a paladin. If a paladin enjoys and wallows in his non-paladin stuff, then he'll be in trouble. If a paladin is faced with tough decisions and has to settle for lesser evils (such as lying in order to infiltrate an evil society to learn about their nefarious plans... as is the case in this adventure), if he feels guilty and tormented about it and does his best under those strictures to adhere to his vows nevertheless... the WORST thing that should happen to the paladin is that if he doesn't seek out an atonement spell when all is over he should probably lose some paladin powers. In that case... it's not the lying that got him, it's the fact that he HAD to lie but then never bothered or cared to atone for the lie once things had been resolved.
Deities and paladin codes are NOT on-off situations. Like humans, they're capable of seeing the shades of gray and coping with adjustments and strains to the system. The class isn't intended to give GMs and other players ammo to ruin the game for the guy playing the class... but the guy playing the class should go in with eyes open and ready to accept the challenge of playing the HARDEST class to roleplay in the entire game.
In closing, treating the paladin's code as hard and fast rules like those for grappling or swinging weapons is playing the game wrong, pure and simple. A paladin's code should be treated more like alignment; it's not something that you can codify everything with a strict and unwavering read of the rules.
Thank you, Game-designer-dude, for speaking some sense about it. Paladins are the clearest example of what I'm always bringing up on these boards... there's an inherent, unspoken agreement between the players and the DM that everyone is there to have fun, and treat each other well. If the DM is constantly setting the paladin up for failure, he's braking that agreement. Let the paladin-player decide what truly heinous acts are, and what minor offenses should be. TALK about it with them prior to play. Clear communication will easily solve any problems that come up.
The funny thing is, I love Paladins. They're a favorite class of mine, especially because I do like heroism in a PC and a campaign. But, as a player and a DM, I would definitely have to say that a Paladin trying to integrate themselves into Drow society would either be killed or fall. Hard. Which means that a Paladin would be a Warrior with a good Will save during that adventure, rather than a PC class. And there really is no way around that for the Paladin. Unless you just get fuzzy with a Paladin code which is, honestly, a hard and fast set of rules. If you let a Paladin play without the code, it kind of ruins the whole point of the class.
*shrug* Again, I just don't really see it working. And I've run campaigns where plenty of Paladins would have been capable of functioning without falling from grace, despite moral dilemmas put forth. Because I seldom believe in no-win situations for the Paladin. This situation, though... I just cannot really figure it without basically avoiding the subject for that entire module.
I have been reading Second Darkness, and a really cleaver Paladin can do it without falling or dieing.
Definitely. Especially if they are wilely enough to have the paladin actually be a ranger. :D
|
|
The funny thing is, I love Paladins. They're a favorite class of mine, especially because I do like heroism in a PC and a campaign. But, as a player and a DM, I would definitely have to say that a Paladin trying to integrate themselves into Drow society would either be killed or fall. Hard. Which means that a Paladin would be a Warrior with a good Will save during that adventure, rather than a PC class. And there really is no way around that for the Paladin. Unless you just get fuzzy with a Paladin code which is, honestly, a hard and fast set of rules. If you let a Paladin play without the code, it kind of ruins the whole point of the class.
*shrug* Again, I just don't really see it working. And I've run campaigns where plenty of Paladins would have been capable of functioning without falling from grace, despite moral dilemmas put forth. Because I seldom believe in no-win situations for the Paladin. This situation, though... I just cannot really figure it without basically avoiding the subject for that entire module.
He's not working with the drow so much as working against them from within, which is actually perfectly acceptable in the paladin's code.
He's not working with the drow so much as working against them from within, which is actually perfectly acceptable in the paladin's code.The funny thing is, I love Paladins. They're a favorite class of mine, especially because I do like heroism in a PC and a campaign. But, as a player and a DM, I would definitely have to say that a Paladin trying to integrate themselves into Drow society would either be killed or fall. Hard. Which means that a Paladin would be a Warrior with a good Will save during that adventure, rather than a PC class. And there really is no way around that for the Paladin. Unless you just get fuzzy with a Paladin code which is, honestly, a hard and fast set of rules. If you let a Paladin play without the code, it kind of ruins the whole point of the class.
*shrug* Again, I just don't really see it working. And I've run campaigns where plenty of Paladins would have been capable of functioning without falling from grace, despite moral dilemmas put forth. Because I seldom believe in no-win situations for the Paladin. This situation, though... I just cannot really figure it without basically avoiding the subject for that entire module.
Yup, humanoid sacrifice to demon lords are fine with the paladin's code, as long as he didn't really mean it.
|
|
Yup, humanoid sacrifice to demon lords are fine with the paladin's code, as long as he didn't really mean it.He's not working with the drow so much as working against them from within, which is actually perfectly acceptable in the paladin's code.The funny thing is, I love Paladins. They're a favorite class of mine, especially because I do like heroism in a PC and a campaign. But, as a player and a DM, I would definitely have to say that a Paladin trying to integrate themselves into Drow society would either be killed or fall. Hard. Which means that a Paladin would be a Warrior with a good Will save during that adventure, rather than a PC class. And there really is no way around that for the Paladin. Unless you just get fuzzy with a Paladin code which is, honestly, a hard and fast set of rules. If you let a Paladin play without the code, it kind of ruins the whole point of the class.
*shrug* Again, I just don't really see it working. And I've run campaigns where plenty of Paladins would have been capable of functioning without falling from grace, despite moral dilemmas put forth. Because I seldom believe in no-win situations for the Paladin. This situation, though... I just cannot really figure it without basically avoiding the subject for that entire module.
That isn't in the adventure. Cite the exact text.
|
|
Yup, humanoid sacrifice to demon lords are fine with the paladin's code, as long as he didn't really mean it.
I refuse to believe in a paladin who can be a hero only on his own terms of holiness. A true hero, a true icon of hope, justice and goodness has to be capable of comprimise a little to help save the world from extinction. So i don´t see the problem being with the adventure, or the campaing or with Paizo. The problem is with the Paladin class (or the interpretation of the Paladin class some players keep doing).
|
Yup, humanoid sacrifice to demon lords are fine with the paladin's code, as long as he didn't really mean it.I refuse to believe in a paladin who can be a hero only on his own terms of holiness. A true hero, a true icon of hope, justice and goodness has to be capable of comprimise a little to help save the world from extinction. So i don´t see the problem being with the adventure, or the campaing or with Paizo. The problem is with the Paladin class (or the interpretation of the Paladin class some players keep doing).
I agree and then some. I don't think that any Diety knowing that the end of the world is nigh would suddenly punish a Paladin for a minior infraction to the code.
Perhaps in these grim and gritty tales there could be a sidebar about how a diety might bolster a Paladin during what must be a trying time for them in visions. Perhaps a spiritual messenger to acknowledge that they will have to walk a difficult line though the lands of the unholy, ect, ect..
If the world is at stake, the Paladin should have some lee way on the code. Little infractions, not big ones.
This isn't true. Gods dont' have stat blocks, so you can't kill them in combat. But gods can most certainly die.Aroden proves that you don't even have to kill them. They can just randomly die. Maybe he had a deity-level viral infection. Damn it, who sneezed on the Starstone?
Mrs. Fishy is still picking Aroden-bits out of her teeth, and Mrs. Fishy doesn't even want to talk about the indigodstion.
Mrs. Fishy is power bloated.
I don't think that any Diety knowing that the end of the world is nigh would suddenly punish a Paladin for a minior infraction to the code.
No french fries or cake for you! Cut down on those calories!
Yup, humanoid sacrifice to demon lords are fine with the paladin's code, as long as he didn't really mean it.I refuse to believe in a paladin who can be a hero only on his own terms of holiness. A true hero, a true icon of hope, justice and goodness has to be capable of comprimise a little to help save the world from extinction. So i don´t see the problem being with the adventure, or the campaing or with Paizo. The problem is with the Paladin class (or the interpretation of the Paladin class some players keep doing).I agree and then some. I don't think that any Diety knowing that the end of the world is nigh would suddenly punish a Paladin for a minior infraction to the code.
Perhaps in these grim and gritty tales there could be a sidebar about how a diety might bolster a Paladin during what must be a trying time for them in visions. Perhaps a spiritual messenger to acknowledge that they will have to walk a difficult line though the lands of the unholy, ect, ect..
If the world is at stake, the Paladin should have some lee way on the code. Little infractions, not big ones.
Again, just to point out in the RAW for PF, deities do not give paladin's abilities, thus any discussion about a deity doing this or that is ultimately as meaningful when it comes to paladins as it is when it comes to barbarians (yes you can house-rule that a deity gives a paladin her abilities, just as you can house-rule that a nature deity gives a barbarian her rage abilities).
As for being less dedicated to the code in trying times, this makes me think of a famous quote.
The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
Martin Luther King Jr., Strength to Love, 1963
US black civil rights leader & clergyman (1929 - 1968)
|
|
Yup, humanoid sacrifice to demon lords are fine with the paladin's code, as long as he didn't really mean it.I refuse to believe in a paladin who can be a hero only on his own terms of holiness. A true hero, a true icon of hope, justice and goodness has to be capable of comprimise a little to help save the world from extinction. So i don´t see the problem being with the adventure, or the campaing or with Paizo. The problem is with the Paladin class (or the interpretation of the Paladin class some players keep doing).I agree and then some. I don't think that any Diety knowing that the end of the world is nigh would suddenly punish a Paladin for a minior infraction to the code.
Perhaps in these grim and gritty tales there could be a sidebar about how a diety might bolster a Paladin during what must be a trying time for them in visions. Perhaps a spiritual messenger to acknowledge that they will have to walk a difficult line though the lands of the unholy, ect, ect..
If the world is at stake, the Paladin should have some lee way on the code. Little infractions, not big ones.
Again, just to point out in the RAW for PF, deities do not give paladin's abilities, thus any discussion about a deity doing this or that is ultimately as meaningful when it comes to paladins as it is when it comes to barbarians (yes you can house-rule that a deity gives a paladin her abilities, just as you can house-rule that a nature deity gives a barbarian her rage abilities).
As for being less dedicated to the code in trying times, this makes me think of a famous quote.
The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
Martin Luther King Jr., Strength to Love, 1963
US black civil rights leader & clergyman (1929 - 1968)
And I agree with you, but this isn't so much of a crunch issue as it is a fluff issue for me.
Think of it this way. Paladins don't atone to a code, the atone to a diety. So as dedicated as one is to the code, its the diety that determines if the Paladin get their powers back.
So basically the DM could, (not manditory, or by virtue of RAW) take a patron diety into account and decide to grant a boon to the hero in the form of temporary atonement, until such a time when the hero can make a full accounting of his actions. Or something like that.
It's a bit Deus Ex Machina, but I don't think that when you have a story line that involves the end of the world that its that far fetched that the diety want to keep his player in the game, and not that rule bending.
I have to admit though i do like your quote and it is appropo. If you asked me who i'd want to in my adventuring party. The paladin who sides with his code, vs. the Paladin who sides with the world. I'll take the later.
The comfort of the code will not help you when the end comes, strike out and fight for for your fellow man, woman and child no matter what the controversy is this thrown upon you!
After all, a paladin isn't about what he doesn't do, it what he does do.
|
|
Yup, humanoid sacrifice to demon lords are fine with the paladin's code, as long as he didn't really mean it.He's not working with the drow so much as working against them from within, which is actually perfectly acceptable in the paladin's code.The funny thing is, I love Paladins. They're a favorite class of mine, especially because I do like heroism in a PC and a campaign. But, as a player and a DM, I would definitely have to say that a Paladin trying to integrate themselves into Drow society would either be killed or fall. Hard. Which means that a Paladin would be a Warrior with a good Will save during that adventure, rather than a PC class. And there really is no way around that for the Paladin. Unless you just get fuzzy with a Paladin code which is, honestly, a hard and fast set of rules. If you let a Paladin play without the code, it kind of ruins the whole point of the class.
*shrug* Again, I just don't really see it working. And I've run campaigns where plenty of Paladins would have been capable of functioning without falling from grace, despite moral dilemmas put forth. Because I seldom believe in no-win situations for the Paladin. This situation, though... I just cannot really figure it without basically avoiding the subject for that entire module.
Cite text, please.
DOH!!!. I almost did a spittake on my monitor because of you!I don't think that any Diety knowing that the end of the world is nigh would suddenly punish a Paladin for a minior infraction to the code.No french fries or cake for you! Cut down on those calories!
Heh heh! We specialize in ruined monitors and broken records.
And I agree with you, but this isn't so much of a crunch issue as it is a fluff issue for me.
Which is fine, just realize if we deviate from the crunch, we are entering the house-rule region. How far we are willing to deviate may mean that we are not even playing a paladin by some people's standard anymore, different people have different ideas of where exactly that line is or if it even exists.
Think of it this way. Paladins don't atone to a code, the atone to a diety. So as dedicated as one is to the code, its the diety that determines if the Paladin get their powers back.
I don't think you have to atone to a deity, otherwise clerics that don't worship a diety couldn't cast atonement.
So basically the DM could, (not manditory, or by virtue of RAW) take a patron diety into account and decide to grant a boon to the hero in the form of temporary atonement, until such a time when the hero can make a full accounting of his actions. Or something like that.
It's a bit Deus Ex Machina, but I don't think that when you have a story line that involves the end of the world that its that far fetched that the diety want to keep his player in the game, and not that rule bending.
Yup, but some might think that is playing more of a "grey guard" then a paladin. Personally, as a DM, I would have suggested that someone not play a paladin (or a LG/LN character), and/or that they have the paladin sit out the whole drow society part and the player brings in a new temp character for that. If you are going to infiltrate the Cardassian empire, you don't do some cosmetic surgery on Worf, he just isn't going to pass. Likewise, paladins are very unsuited for that experience, let the paladin character do other stuff, and bring along one of the local elves instead.
I have to admit though i do like your quote and it is appropo. If you asked me who i'd want to in my adventuring party. The paladin who sides with his code, vs. the Paladin who sides with the world. I'll take the later.
Most people would, because most people are pragmatic and not idealist. As Worf said, "Nothing is more honorable than victory."
The comfort of the code will not help you when the end comes, strike out and fight for for your fellow man, woman and child no matter what the controversy is this thrown upon you!
After all, a paladin isn't about what he doesn't do, it what he does do.
I think what we have here is a fundamental different view of the paladin and his code. Some folks see the paladin unwilling to break his code as selfish, that the paladin values his powers over doing the "right thing". I would suggest that while this opinion may be valid for the player, the character probably shouldn't be viewed from that point of view. Instead the paladin character doesn't break his code, because he views it as illogical to do so. The means of one's actions taint the results of one's actions. If you do dishonorable or even evil acts in hopes of getting a good result, it will utlimately backfire on you and blow up in your face.
Now it certainly possible to think of the paladin in that case as deluded or naive, and that good results can come from evil works, but to a paladin that usually sounds like gobbly-goop. When a paladin begins to think that evil works actually can lead to a good end, that often leads to the anti-paladin, or at least a fall like Miko.
|
|
I think what we have here is a fundamental different view of the paladin and his code. Some folks see the paladin unwilling to break his code as selfish, that the paladin values his powers over doing the "right thing". I would suggest that while this opinion may be valid for the player, the character probably shouldn't be viewed from that point of view. Instead the paladin character doesn't break his code, because he views it as illogical to do so. The means of one's actions taint the results of one's actions. If you do dishonorable or even evil acts in hopes of getting a good result, it will utlimately backfire on you and blow up in your face.
Now it certainly possible to think of the paladin in that case as deluded or naive, and that good results can come from evil works, but to a paladin that usually sounds like gobbly-goop. When a paladin begins to think that evil works actually can lead to a good end, that often leads to the anti-paladin, or at least a fall like Miko.
Now we are talking. I have the same option, but i see things a lot different. The problem lies in the eyes of the GM. What is evil in my campaign is not what is evil in your campaign. If a GM makes a Paladin lose his powers for feinting in combat (its not a form of lying ?) is a lot of different from a GM that let his paladins act like Cpt. Kirk or Batman (hehehe sorry). And i don´t think is a mistake or should be addressed by rules, everyone is different.
So, in the end i really believe there is a problem with Second Darkness. As pres man showed us (even if Second Darkness was made for 3.5E) the PF Paladin, as written, have no place in the drow infiltration mission.I still don´t believe that the measure of man is measured by the strict rules that they follow, but the paladin, as written, is much of a eurocentric-like champion, so its makes sense in a fashion.
|
|
And I agree with you, but this isn't so much of a crunch issue as it is a fluff issue for me.Which is fine, just realize if we deviate from the crunch, we are entering the house-rule region. How far we are willing to deviate may mean that we are not even playing a paladin by some people's standard anymore, different people have different ideas of where exactly that line is or if it even exists.
Think of it this way. Paladins don't atone to a code, the atone to a diety. So as dedicated as one is to the code, its the diety that determines if the Paladin get their powers back.I don't think you have to atone to a deity, otherwise clerics that don't worship a diety couldn't cast atonement.
So basically the DM could, (not manditory, or by virtue of RAW) take a patron diety into account and decide to grant a boon to the hero in the form of temporary atonement, until such a time when the hero can make a full accounting of his actions. Or something like that.
It's a bit Deus Ex Machina, but I don't think that when you have a story line that involves the end of the world that its that far fetched that the diety want to keep his player in the game, and not that rule bending.
Yup, but some might think that is playing more of a "grey guard" then a paladin. Personally, as a DM, I would have suggested that someone not play a paladin (or a LG/LN character), and/or that they have the paladin sit out the whole drow society part and the player brings in a new temp character for that. If you are going to infiltrate the Cardassian empire, you don't do some cosmetic surgery on Worf, he just isn't going to pass. Likewise, paladins are very unsuited for that experience, let the paladin character do other stuff, and bring along one of the local elves instead.
I have to admit though i do like your quote and it is appropo. If you asked me who i'd want to in my adventuring party. The paladin who sides with his code, vs. the...
Your right, we disagree.
Adhearing to a code to the detrimite of of a planet individuals, isn't honorable, its the pride of sin.
as for what is in the rules. Here is some RAW for you.
School abjuration; Level cleric 5, druid 5
Casting Time 1 hour
Components V, S, M (burning incense), F (a set of prayer beads or other prayer device worth at least 500 gp), DF
Range touch
Target living creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
This spell removes the burden of misdeeds from the subject. The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds. If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you. However, in the case of a creature atoning for deliberate misdeeds, you must intercede with your deity (requiring you to expend 2,500 gp in rare incense and offerings). Atonement may be cast for one of several purposes, depending on the version selected.
Reverse Magical Alignment Change: If a creature has had its alignment magically changed, atonement returns its alignment to its original status at no additional cost.
Restore Class: A paladin, or other class, who has lost her class features due to violating the alignment restrictions of her class may have her class features restored by this spell.
Restore Cleric or Druid Spell Powers: A cleric or druid who has lost the ability to cast spells by incurring the anger of her deity may regain that ability by seeking atonement from another cleric of the same deity or another druid. If the transgression was intentional, the casting cleric must expend 2,500 gp in rare incense and offerings for her god's intercession.
Redemption or Temptation: You may cast this spell upon a creature of an opposing alignment in order to offer it a chance to change its alignment to match yours. The prospective subject must be present for the entire casting process. Upon completion of the spell, the subject freely chooses whether it retains its original alignment or acquiesces to your offer and changes to your alignment. No duress, compulsion, or magical influence can force the subject to take advantage of the opportunity offered if it is unwilling to abandon its old alignment. This use of the spell does not work on outsiders or any creature incapable of changing its alignment naturally.
Though the spell description refers to evil acts, atonement can be used on any creature that has performed acts against its alignment, regardless of the actual alignment in question.
Note: Normally, changing alignment is up to the player. This use of atonement offers a method for a character to change his or her alignment drastically, suddenly, and definitively.
Cleric with out a diety doesn't come into effect here.
I think what we have here is a fundamental different view of the paladin and his code. Some folks see the paladin unwilling to break his code as selfish, that the paladin values his powers over doing the "right thing". I would suggest that while this opinion may be valid for the player, the character probably shouldn't be viewed from that point of view. Instead the paladin character doesn't break his code, because he views it as illogical to do so. The means of one's actions taint the results of one's actions. If you do dishonorable or even evil acts in hopes of getting a good result, it will utlimately backfire on you and blow up in your face.
The paladin, the knight of virtue, born out of the ideals of Romantic Courts of Europe, should hold logic, over defending the innocent, and defenseless?
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
In your senario, the Paladin breaks his code as well. He has put honor, before the lives of the innocent.
Now it certainly possible to think of the paladin in that case as deluded or naive, and that good results can come from evil works, but to a paladin that usually sounds like gobbly-goop. When a paladin begins to think that evil works actually can lead to a good end, that often leads to the anti-paladin, or at least a fall like Miko.
Ok, you really need to stop mixing the general here with the specific. THe senario that your using here is Second Darkness. There is no gobble goop, if a Paladin is in the party he has a duty and a mission to prevent a genocide. This is a:
a) Help those in need andb) Punish those that harm the innocent
Type of mission.
If you fail, genocide.
What you are saying is that because a Paladin may have to move into the grey areas with:
[b]act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth)[b]
That the character is gobble goop. Really, that's...
...
Ok, I've writen five sentences here that I've erased.
But I think I finally understand something about you Presman. You've moved into a frame of mind in which, your more about the letter of the law, rather than the spirit of the rule.
You keep saying it is ok to move away from the code, if there is genocide going on. Very well. What if it is just the destruction of one metropolis? One village? 100 people? 10 people? 1 person? When is it ok to abandon the code for the good of others? That is the problem with these things, once you begin to allow the code to be broken, it isn't really a code anymore.
I'm playing a Paladin in Expodition to the Demonweb Pits at the moment and believe me the balancing act is not easy..
This particular argument has being going on for over 30 years right back to OD&D..and I don't think we'll ever get a definitive answer to it
So you're saying that the code trumps the lives of innocents? You aren't willing to sacrifice your powers to stop the destruction of innocent life?
I'm saying you are looking at it from a pragmatic point of view, but a paladin looks at it from an idealistic point of view. It is not a choice of saving lives or following the code, it is that following the code is the method to achieve the best outcome, in the paladin's faith (note this isn't necessarily religion). What if in order to save the lives, you had to condemn all of the souls to the hells for all eternity? Would that be a good deal in your view? Some means are too extreme, and ultimately are self-defeating. What if a paladin sacrificed his ethics, but failed to stop the apocolypse? What had he accomplished in that case? Feeling good about himself that he gave it the college try?
Also, to satisfy Herald and speak about the actual module itself, we should point out that when the party goes to the underdark, they don't know the issue is about the apolocypse, they have indications of it, but don't know for certain. And if the deities knew so much, why even go, just use some divination spells and avoid the entire issue to begin with, so I don't think we can say that the deities know full well, and thus couldn't reasonably say, "This is such an extreme situation that we are talking all restrictions off the board."
|
|
Also, to satisfy Herald and speak about the actual module itself, we should point out that when the party goes to the underdark, they don't know the issue is about the apolocypse, they have indications of it, but don't know for certain. And if the deities knew so much, why even go, just use some divination spells and avoid the entire issue to begin with, so I don't think we can say that the deities know full well, and thus couldn't reasonably say, "This is such an extreme situation that we are talking all restrictions off the board."
The problem is : No hero we know about would keep being a paladin if the code would keep him from saving inocent lives. After that, IF the sacrifice was not in vain, and he learn that what he has done was the best course of action anyway (like he ended killing or punishing every evil being who gained something from his trangressions) maybe he can go back to being a paladin. This is the classic jorney of the hero.
I have to say if a Paladin deliberately allowed innocents to die in order to satisfy his code then I would strip him off his powers there and then.He should defend the Innocent AT ALL COSTS!!!!!
The real problem is that Paladins are given a 'one code fits all'whilst in fact different orders of Paladins dedicated to different ideals should have different codes.
The problem is : No hero we know about would keep being a paladin if the code would keep him from saving inocent lives.
And I would say that asking the paladin to abandon her ethics to save innocent lives is like asking someone to fly by passing gas. It is just not feasible in their mind. In that case they must find another way to achieve their goals.
As an analogy, for some people breaking their word is unacceptable for any reason. These people are occasionally in difficult situations because of this personal code/ethic, situations where if they would be willing to break their word would make their lives easier. Why don't they? Their personal beliefs do not allow them to.
In the module, they perhaps should say, "No thank you on the drow skin disguise. Instead we will rush the gate and secure it. Question any survivers, and then working on finding out the information some other way. I have no intention of infiltrating a group of demon worshippers." Now that might be a "dumb" plan, lawful "stupid" if you will, but it would still be following the code, while trying to save innocent lives (drow within PF context are not innocent by definition).
After that, IF the sacrifice was not in vain, and he learn that what he has done was the best course of action anyway (like he ended killing or punishing every evil being who gained something from his trangressions) maybe he can go back to being a paladin. This is the classic jorney of the hero.
I don't know if that is THE classic journey of the hero, it may be A classic journey of the hero.
I have to say if a Paladin deliberately allowed innocents to die in order to satisfy his code then I would strip him off his powers there and then.He should defend the Innocent AT ALL COSTS!!!!!
So the code should be tossed whenever it hinders the defense of innocents, even that of a single innocent? Kind of doesn't really sound much of code at that point, what do the pirates say, "More like guidelines really."
|
The problem here is that some people are using the GOTCHA! argument again. "Well if sacrificing innocents saves the world, isn't that following the code?" Ummmm No. Especially in the Pathfinder world, where those innocents could end up being sent to the demon realms. The Paladin's code is to NEVER compromise in the face of evil, much like Rorschach's code from Watchmen ironically enough. You can't decline to save people when it's your job, or in this case your calling.
The problem with this argument is that it's so esoteric. People transform it into a numbers game. If X gets a higher net result then Y... etc. Which from the the Paladin character's perspective, wouldn't fly. It also ignores the personal connection that they're supposed to have with the world. 100 generic villagers is one thing, but what if those villagers were your friends since childhood? Your family? "Sorry little Sis, had to choose practicality over my principals. Enjoy burning in hell for all eternity!"
|
|
So the code should be tossed whenever it hinders the defense of innocents, even that of a single innocent? Kind of doesn't really sound much of code at that point, what do the...
Short answer: Damned if you do, really damned if you don't. The lesser of two evils is to abandon your code to save the lives of innocents, you may be damned because of it, but it is the noble sacrifice.
If you don't abandon your code, you still get stripped of your powers for letting innocents die, including yourself in the instance of Second Darkness, and if all life dies, you will never be able to seek redemption.
Say you do consort with the demon summoners, so what? You aren't actaully working with them, you are using them to allow you access to information that will allow you to stave off the apocalypse. A paladin, if asked to go to hell to save the world, would choose hell.
Also, nothing in the adventure has any demonic sacrifices you are partaking in, so that point is kinda moot.