I was just curious if anybody had any thoughts on how feminism has affected and influenced fantasy role playing games, especially a Dungeons and Dragons type game. In my opinion I believe the new 4.0 D&D is partially a failure to do feminist influence. No half orcs because it suggests rape. Before we just had to deal with the foolishness of having one page start every sentence with 'HE' and the next page 'SHE' for the core books, which to me was very annoying. Why can't it read 'The character', or 'the adventurer' ( I guess because it's easier to print 'He' and save money on publishing costs.)
To me the idea that you can't play a half orc because it suggests rape is just lunacy, but it's alright to chop up people with sword? What if in the D&D world the creators decided to just make everyone asexual? Then you don't have to worry about sex and you can change your books from He/she format to an It format. Hey that's a pretty good idea, I might have to go call the makers of D&D now.
Is there really even a place for feminism in the fantasy game market, where all of the different sexes are equal? What do you guys think?
That's the first I've heard about the Half-Orc rape thing. If it's true, and that's the reason they dropped the race, then that's some pretty weak reasoning that supports that as "feminist".
We have a game that regularly displays women as empowered and equal to men. There are some regrettable stereotypes around how women are depicted in the game, but many of those apply to men also. And in many cases, it is the female players who call for this kind of thing — myself and many other men are the ones who complain about sexist depictions.
It's a slippery topic. For every feminist who claims that half orcs are offensive because they imply rape (I have never heard of one), there are feminists who would say that ignoring/hiding the pervasive reality of sexual assault is deluded — a world that is too cowardly to even broach the topic might be considered offensive. Victim advocates are focused on raising awareness, not denial.
Characterizing rapist absentee fathers as literally abhorrent monsters is not exactly an endorsement of the practice, and if games are an artistic medium then I believe that kind of character background is a valid expression. I have just such a character amongst the PCs in my own game.
As for the use of the language: switching pronouns is a widely accepted practice that I try to use myself. English changes.
As for Lizards with Boobs: okay, that's silly. But... a wizard did it, right?
The Dragonborn are a fascinating example of feminist influence on RPGs (lizards with breasts, wohoo !) ;-)
While the comment, from the smiley at the end, was probably done with a tongue firmly planted in the cheek. To me te decision to give breasts to lizards speaks much more of the male mindset which continually permeates D&D and other RPG than an actual feminist influence. The fixation of teenagers/young adult males with the female breast is a sensible point which is definitely being played on in a lot of RPG marketing.
That's the first I've heard about the Half-Orc rape thing. If it's true, and that's the reason they dropped the race, then that's some pretty weak reasoning that supports that as "feminist".
Nah, it's more that rape is related to sex, and 4e's target audience isn't supposed to be old enough to have had The Talk yet.
Nah, it's more that rape is related to sex, and 4e's target audience isn't supposed to be old enough to have had The Talk yet.
Was that purely facetious? Would this mean they did away with half elves as well?
EDIT: I must admit I didn't know, but I just checked and both Half orcs and half elves are player races in 4e. OP, it appears your claim of evidence on half orcs is null, as is my discussion above.
This iconic monster has a very feminine shape...
As for the use of the language: switching pronouns is a widely accepted practice that I try to use myself. English changes.
I find it easier to simply switch from the singular to the plural. It takes pronoun gender out of the equation entirely.
Uh... I'm pretty sure Half-Orcs indeed ARE in the 4thEd. PHB2 and Forgotten Realms - Their absence as well as others' from the first book was more Hasbro's commercial ploy to get their "valued customers" to buy every single damn book they pump out. If you'd rather avert your eyes from such extractive motives, I can see how "feminists" might be convenient. If you actually had A source, much less multiple sources to establish the existence of this "feminist critique of including Half-Orcs in Fantasy RPGs" that would be alot more convicing and relevant than just hypothesizing it. (The fact somebody is a woman is not enough to convince me they are any strain of "feminist", BTW.)
Honestly, I don't see "feminists" would object to Half-Orcs, ASSUMING they were associated with rape (which they aren't necessarily). Would feminists object to a Red-haired English person, presumably the product of Viking rape? Seriously, the inclusion of the topic of rape and it's after-math seems like EXACTLY something that feminist-minded people looking to use the frame-work of a Fantasy RPG to explore social topics would be interested in. Being an illegitimate child was historically often "a bad thing", to one degree or another, so in a setting where EVERYBODY would instantly assume that fact from your appearance (as you suggest by your assumptions) would be dealing with this issue head-on. But feminists don't want to deal head-on with social issues, right...?
BTW, Friends of friends of mine have even written their thesis for criticial-theory type degrees (so they probably well could be considered "feminist" in some sense or another), on the topic of RPGs and exploring their function in relations to gender, society, etc. I honestly don't think your premise is that convincing, especially since it seems to center on the premise of "rape=bad, child of rape [not necessarily] reminding us of rape = bad, something to avoid". I would ask, where are the feminists who so want to exclude real-world children of rape? If this association holds true, why wouldn't it apply in the real-world as much as fantasy world?
Was that purely facetious? Would this mean they did away with half elves as well?
Nah, half-elves aren't generally the result of rape.
OP, it appears your claim of evidence on half orcs is null
That sounds quite offensive.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
I'm a lingustic luddite,
I still prefer the male gender as the default and have no problem with 'they'.
That said, unlike the original poster, I don't find he/she switching off as being offensive, just annoying.
If anything, the game grows stronger with a 'feminist influence'. Characters like Kyra and Seelah aren't fainting damsels, they're warriors who don't fall into the 'buff = lesbian' trope. (To paraphrase Mercedes Lackey "Women who are as buff as Conan, and have similar appitites'.)
Even our 'eye candy' iconics aren't presented as damsels in distress, but full party members.
Modern gaming also concides with a resurgance of female writers as well. Some may be inspired by the tone of modern gaming; others, like 'our own' Elaine Cunningham have helped shape it.
I guess to sum up, I find the original poster's arguments flawed. The presense of women in gaming may have changed gaming, but it hasn't 'made 4x a failure' anymore than having Lisa in charge of Paizo has doomed the company :P
My only peeve is there are no 'male only' prestige classes I'm aware of, unlike the Swanmays and the Battle Riders from WotC.
|
But valeros has that carefully placed scar! How can you still call him pretty? Lol. The game is about as feminist friendly as the world is. Many of the female players in my group still prefer to play "sexy" characters over ugly ones. But then so do most of my male players. As far as half-orcs go, those are such stereotypes. I suppose you expect half-orcs to yell "I smash you!" at every available opportunity. Well it just isn't that way anymore. Half-orcs don't have the penalties they used to have. Perhaps now they were raised in a stable, middle class mixed race family. She could even be a college educated wizard! Grull Power!
|
Before we just had to deal with the foolishness of having one page start every sentence with 'HE' and the next page 'SHE' for the core books, which to me was very annoying.
I read somewhere that the gender of descriptions was based on the Iconics. Rogue and Wizard examples used 'her' or 'she,' because Lidda and Mialee were (supposedly, in Mialee's case...) female, while Fighter and Cleric examples used 'he' or 'him,' because Jozan and Regdar had junk in their trunks.
It is kinda amusing how the male Iconics are more likely to be human, while the female Iconics are more likely to be other races. Reminds me of that first inter-racial kiss on Star Trek, where the network tried to convince Roddenberry to have Uhura kiss Spock instead of Kirk, since it would be 'less offensive' if the black chick kissed someone who wasn't human...
It is interesting how much the female pronoun jumps out at readers accustomed to the male as 'default.' White Wolf was getting *constant* criticism that they used the female pronoun exclusively, or at some much higher percentage than the male one, and they would rebut with exact numbers from the books being complained about, and they were divided up exactly 50/50, but the male readers blithely ignored the male pronoun, which was effectively invisible to them, as assumed the books were written entirely (or just predominately) in the female pronoun.
English needs a good non-gender specific singular pronoun. For a language that doesn't assign genders to objects (like French or whatever), it's kind of odd that we've got no gender-neutral word.
I hear dire lizardwomen have Xtreme bone spikes coming out of their breasts...
but still no petite female japanese adolescent clad in a black kimono? that would be an awesome representation for a new Hitokiri prestige class. i'll get on the designing.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
Pfft... Next, you're going to tell me that chickens have breasts...Wait... Lizards don't have breasts?Nope, they only have one, A Breast. But of course, WotC just has to kick everything up to 11, don't they, sheesh!
Eh Hem. They prefer the term "White Meat" for their massive jugs, thank you.
Insects here are incomprehensible.
|
|
Well I looked at the fourth edition PHB II. You can play a half-orc just fine. The opener does have a point that there is a breakaway from rape, in fact it had started since third edition. Where under the half orc section it saids fringe tribes of humans living near orc settlements sometimes intermingle thus producing the Half-orc. In first and second edition it was pretty much implied most half orcs were the result of rape by raiding orcs. Orcs being quite brutal homicidal and lustful would have no qualms of forcing themselves upon a helpless human female.
Of course, Half-Orc society being a truely feminist society, there are plenty of female half-Orcs out raiding and raping males, too.
I had heard also about the rape/feminist/4E stuff, somewhere, and basically I just chalked it up to more feminist/PC propaganda BS. Might have been those WotC Presents books for 4E, trying to show how great it was back when they were bashing 3E.
I had heard also about the rape/feminist/4E stuff, somewhere, and basically I just chalked it up to more feminist/PC propaganda BS.
Politically correct BS it is.
Propaganda? Not really.
Feminist? Not really either.
Well I looked at the fourth edition PHB II. Yo can play a half-orc just fine.
"II". They were a year late.
The opener does have a point that there is a breakaway from rape, in fact it had started since third edition.
Well, Pathfinder doesn't have it. PF acknowledges the fact that most half-orcs aren't love-children.
Orcs are seeing the value of half-orcs as leaders, as their greater cunning makes them more adept at leading troops effectively.
Towards that end, the orcs breed half-orcs. And by "breed", I mean "abduct human females, rape them until the seed takes hold, and keep them as incubators until they spawn the leaders.
There are other ways, of course. I guess once an aeon an orc and a human do have consenting intercourse, and of course half-orcs can beget more half-orcs when they mate with humans, half-orcs or orcs, but almost every half-orc "bloodline" started as an atrocity.
Half Elves now are usually the result of a consensual pairing of elf and human. However because neither race are saints you occasionally have a half-elf child born from rape
Of course. Just like humans rape humans, and I'm sure elves sometimes rape elves, there are cases where they rape members of the other race.
But the tendency of such behaviour is rare with the elves (who tend to be on the nicer, freedom-loving side) and even with humans, who have no average behavioural pattern, it is a lot rarer than with orcs.
And not only are the numbers of rapes between those races rarer, the cases where members of those races actually like each other enough to get into a situation where they procreate are so much more numerous.
Guys I heard in the new D&D editions women aren't forced to have lower maximum strength then men.
G#%*#~n feminism!
Rather than feminism, what about corporatism and profit? Hasbro wants the largest possible audience for their products, ergo remove elements likely to offend a target demographic. I doubt highly the decision was made with any sort of philosophical basis. At least, that's what my Male Answering Syndrome tells me.
Zo
Reminds me of the feminist rant about drow I heard once. Apparently drow are meant to be an attack on women to show how a society run by women would turn out. Of course, the ranter blithely ignored the fact that goblin and orc societies, which are pretty much entirely run by men, are even worse, and all the PC race societies (except perhaps dwarves) are pretty much all for equality. Seems to me the moral would be, "If you want a good society, go for equality, but if you have to have one gender in charge, let it be women. Things will still be frakked up, but not as much as with the men in charge."
|
|
"If you want a good society, go for women in charge, but if you have to have one gender in charge, let it be women. Things will still be frakked up, but not as much as with the men in charge."
There fixed it for you. :D
Personally I don't think it has anything to do with it. I think it has to do with PC *bleep* and trying to market to younger main stream kids and their families.
Also, drow are racist. And so are you for loving/hating them.
There's something else wrong with you other than racism. Unless you're a woman, then you're good.
|
|
Half Elves now are usually the result of a consensual pairing of elf and human. However because neither race are saints you occasionally have a half-elf child born from rape most famous example Tanis Half-Elven.
I am sure I read somewhere that Tanis' mother actually fell in love with a human mercenary. He was a product of that relationship. The human mercenary disappeared to search for work or something. Solostaran, embarrassed by the union and his abandoned sister, then claimed Tanis was a child of rape.
|
|
Of course. Just like humans rape humans, and I'm sure elves sometimes rape elves, there are cases where they rape members of the other race.
This makes sense, as not all elves are good.
Just because the majority of the race is aligned to good, does not mean that their are no crimes of passion or that the race does not breed downright bastards.
It would be unrealistic to suggest rape is localised to only some player races.
|
|
A good example of a feminist society I can think of are the Rashemar from the Forgotten Realms. They have clearly divided roles, the men are more less doing physical activity. The hunting, farming soldiering while the women are mainly in leadership roles taking care of their small rustic communities. The Rashemar witches dictate policy and pretty much lead the nation, whilst the men obey the witches without question. After all it isnt wise to disobey the witches...However there is harmony between the two because each gender values what the other has to offer.
Sounds like the exact opposite of Feminism, or rather what Feminism is suppossed to be.
|
That may have been in one of the prelude books, which I havent read. However mainly in the chronicles and legends Tanis was stated as a child of violence
In was the Classics series actually. TSR decided to water down Tanis's backstory by making Tanis's mother a liar (kidnapped, fell in love, fightning, death, lie.) It's actually a fine example of what I hate about Dragonlance. The novels trying to expand on Hickman and Weis's characters were always subpar.
I fail to see how finding rape abhorrent is feminist. Decent people should find the involuntary violation of another's person by any means repulsive. The softening of the half-orc background may have been an effort to negate some of the inherent RP issues with a half-orc in a human-dominated society, where they tend to be viewed negatively and persecuted. The changes should make the half-orc class MORE playable as an RP'er, not just hack-and-slasher.
The language issue goes far beyond D&D. The authors and editors are simply using what has come to be current standards for writing in many places. I used to be annoyed by the switch between pronouns but am getting accustomed to it.
Ability scores are no longer adjusted by character sex as they were in AD&D, which is a relief mechanically, even though it is frankly unrealistic. But many things in the game system are unrealistic. Maintaining such gender-based differences is unnecessarily complicated.
There's no provocative artwork in the new versions? Seen Seoni lately? And there are tons of unofficial highly provocative pics of women around. What is odd is that there are few good pics of human men available. We've been having trouble finding any to use as PC portraits. If feminism were rampant in D&D, there'd be LOTS of such pics!
|
|
There's no provocative artwork in the new versions? Seen Seoni lately? And there are tons of unofficial highly provocative pics of women around. What is odd is that there are few good pics of human men available. We've been having trouble finding any to use as PC portraits. If feminism were rampant in D&D, there'd be LOTS of such pics!
Funny you should mention the unofficial art... it's done by a gal. I suspect if she wanted she could do some beef cake pics of Valeros.. or atleast some romantic ones with Valeros and her favorite female iconic, but she doesn't. Hmmmmmm.
The novels trying to expand on Hickman and Weis's characters were always subpar.
You actually thought they were good enough to be subpar? You're easy to please.
I studied Babylonian just to find a word to describe how pathetic they were. Then I made the mistake of saying that word and inadvertently summoned Richard Simmons into being (yes, it was powerful enough for a retroactive summoning).
|
|
What is odd is that there are few good pics of human men available. We've been having trouble finding any to use as PC portraits. If feminism were rampant in D&D, there'd be LOTS of such pics!
I want to make a small disagreement here. We all know that girls who play D&D would rather have a smart wizard than a buff fighter :)
{No half orcs because it suggests rape.}
We already toned that down for 3E, suggesting that human villages and orc tribes mix and trade in times of peace.
{Before we just had to deal with the foolishness of having one page start every sentence with 'HE' and the next page 'SHE' for the core books, which to me was very annoying.}
That was actually because the D&D iconic cleric was a male, so the pronoun for all cleric stuff was male. The iconic druid was female, so the pronoun for all druid stuff was female.
{Why can't it read 'The character', or 'the adventurer' ( I guess because it's easier to print 'He' and save money on publishing costs.)}
1) Because avoiding pronouns is childish writing.
2) And repetitive.
3) And rewriting sentences to avoid "he" or "she" takes more time (and thus costs more) than just writing naturally and not revising them.
{To me the idea that you can't play a half orc because it suggests rape is just lunacy, but it's alright to chop up people with sword?}
Perhaps it's nice to have a rulebook that doesn't talk about rape--and thus press an alarm button on all women reading it?