I am not sure if this is a fair fight as the wizard is an offensive caster while the cleric is a defensive caster most of the time. I do think timestop will sway the game towards the wizard. And there is use the of wish/miracle which could wreck the other player aswell. and it depends on some save/die spells at the high levels.
Yes but the 'I can kill you' is not the best rule of power since most wizards and clerics won't battle on sight.
The far more useful rule is how much do the classes influence their party success over their time of membership. Here the Cleric is absolutely more powerful than the wizard.
It was a toss up before channeling positive & negative energy. Now its just sick. A party needs a cleric. A wizard is nice.
Sigurd
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For two intellegent players, who are prepaired (both have access to strong divinations which they have used a bit), and are able to precast a few spells, I would say the Cleric.
If you take out certain things like Miracle/Wish as instant wins, (I'd say Miracle is more powerful over all, but basically equal), and it comes down to straight tactics, the Wizard might not have a lot of options. A Specialist is going to be even worse off, most likely.
The Cleric generally has better and more options aside from straight damage and flashy spells. For example, the Cleric might just charge the wizard and prevent them from casting any spells, where the Wizard can't really do that (likely).
Most of the tricks that Wizards have against any other character (summoning a swarm of monsters, teleporting out of distance, making yourself unhittable like invisibility or flying high), a Cleric can either ignor, bypass, or turm right back against the Wizard. The Cleric also has the advantage of being underestimated. Clerics are much better at single targets with spells than Wizards (in general), also.
All that aside, there really are way to many variable and possibilities to say for sure.
Who. Is. DEADLIEST!
where's man in black and treantmonk?!?!? They could answer this definitively in no time.
Personally I'm of the opinion that it depends on buff spells and whatnot.
Who. Is. DEADLIEST!
Archer Cleric wins. Miracle "I could really use an antimagic field right now"
Round 2. Fight.
It's really hard to predict. Assuming that both are aware of the other and have time to prebuff I'm tempted to say the Wizard has the advantage.
Miracle/Wish are pretty similar in functionality in Pathfinder and honestly neither one is a major advantage. I assume both will have a gated ally (Planetar/Balor class, solars are uncontrolled), SR up, and a permanent freedom of movement effect.
The cleric's saves are probably good enough that most of the will save SoD/SoS are going to be negated.
Time Stop + DBF, Disjunctions, and Summons will probably be enough to finish the cleric.
The cleric is probably going to depend on summons, implosion, and defensive magic (blade barrier) to give him time to wear down the wizard. Heals will likely keep him going as long as he can avoid going unconscious.
I think realistically though the cleric might have to try an anti-magic smackdown.
does anyone else feel the need to create 'deadliest warrior' stlye threads about a bunch of class pairs, where in this case (cleric vs wizard) we compare some of the marque spells of each class against eachother and then pit them head to head in a series of pbp battles?
Then next week we move on to the barbarian vs the fighter, rogue vs monk, ranger vs paladin erc.
Then we can finish off the season with an old vs new, fighter, clericl wizard, rogue vs cavalier, summoner, oracle, inquisitor in a duel to the death.
does anyone else feel the need to create 'deadliest warrior' stlye threads about a bunch of class pairs, where in this case (cleric vs wizard) we compare some of the marque spells of each class against eachother and then pit them head to head in a series of pbp battles?
Then next week we move on to the barbarian vs the fighter, rogue vs monk, ranger vs paladin erc.
Then we can finish off the season with an old vs new, fighter, clericl wizard, rogue vs cavalier, summoner, oracle, inquisitor in a duel to the death.
I actually like this idea...
does anyone else feel the need to create 'deadliest warrior' stlye threads about a bunch of class pairs, where in this case (cleric vs wizard) we compare some of the marque spells of each class against eachother and then pit them head to head in a series of pbp battles?
I am normally very opposed to what I call "Deathmatch Balance." Some people bandy the term balance about like it applies to deathmatches between two characters, which to me is a fundamental misreading of the entire game.
However, I would highly approve of a deathmatch series of threads, as it would be an appropriate forum for that kind of player to discuss their version of the hobby. So yeah, if people want to do it, let's start here:
My money's on the wizard.
Oh crap now we have to figure out what range the duel is going to start...
They are exactly 22.25 feet away from each other, and blindfolded. The only weapon they can use is a baseball bat, and their enemy.... the dreaded pinata.
Round two is a piano playing competition, and round three is stand-up comedy.
Wish and Miracle are even, and in this situation I would prefer wish to miracle, wish costs exp and loses the "fickle god" problem.
in PF, wish no longer costs xp, it costs a 25,000 gp diamond (as well as any other material component if you are trying to duplicate a spell); where as miracle you just request a miracle (which the spell description gives a list of examples). there is no material component, unless its a powerful miracle then you need a 25,000 gp of diamond dust(which the spell description gives a list of examples). No fickle gods any more.
so in this case, give me miracle over wish.
Miracle pg 314 and wish pg 370 of the PFRPG core.
Are people assuming that it is a straight cleric vs. wizard? Any prestige classes? Races allowed for this?
I would have to give the core race, multi-prestige classed cleric the edge in this battle - one on one.
1) Clerics have fort or dies save spells that (3.5 pre-path) DC's are just silly.
2) Summoned creatures mean nothing in this fight, if either side has prep time.
3) Prep-time gives the cleric more of an advantage - time before battle always favors the defenders.
4) Also if combat is included, the cleric well have every advantage of armor/weapons and damage output.
5) I hear so much love for time-stop - that would be just another minor increase in the wizards prep-time.
I would love to PvP someones mage design vs a priest design. What should be used to choose stats and magic items? What level? Races? Deities involved? Pathfinder? Or 'classic 3.5'.
I'm pretty sure the wizard would. First thing to do would be cast Maze. Then ready everything you need to just destroy the cleric. Buffs, items, minions, traps, whatever. I just looked briefly through the clerics spell list and I don't believe they have any defenses for it. They could plane shift out of it, then back to the material plane, but they'll end up 5-500 miles away.
Thanks for all the posts :)
I noticed that people weren't considering CONTINGENCY. I mean, if a wizard sets his contingency to teleport away whenever he's target of a weapon or a spell, there should be no way for the cleric to hit him...am i wrong ?
I mean if wizard win initiative it's time stop ,delayed fireball,disjunctions,summons and whatsoever is in your mind... if cleric wins initiative whatever he does wizard disappear..
If i'm wrong tell me !!
Dimensional Anchor as a quickened spell.
I'm pretty sure the wizard would. First thing to do would be cast Maze. Then ready everything you need to just destroy the cleric. Buffs, items, minions, traps, whatever. I just looked briefly through the clerics spell list and I don't believe they have any defenses for it. They could plane shift out of it, then back to the material plane, but they'll end up 5-500 miles away.
You are assuming several things; SR does apply to this spell - second, you give both parties involved 10 minutes to prep spells it does nothing to the cleric but give him time to think in the maze. Third - the cleric could just cast a dimensional anchor on himself - fools the mage.
does anyone else feel the need to create 'deadliest warrior' stlye threads about a bunch of class pairs, where in this case (cleric vs wizard) we compare some of the marque spells of each class against eachother and then pit them head to head in a series of pbp battles?
Then next week we move on to the barbarian vs the fighter, rogue vs monk, ranger vs paladin erc.
Then we can finish off the season with an old vs new, fighter, clericl wizard, rogue vs cavalier, summoner, oracle, inquisitor in a duel to the death.
And after we tire of one on one combat we could match pairs to duke it out. Two classes acting as a team vs. another 2 member team.
I'm pretty sure the wizard would. First thing to do would be cast Maze. Then ready everything you need to just destroy the cleric. Buffs, items, minions, traps, whatever. I just looked briefly through the clerics spell list and I don't believe they have any defenses for it. They could plane shift out of it, then back to the material plane, but they'll end up 5-500 miles away.
I count being many miles away from the crazed arcane spellcaster obviously bent on killing you a win. Go find allies at your local church (you're a 17+ level cleric; you probably have a few), go back to wizard that mazed you, take him down with your army that you've gathered.
But I tend to think of these scenarios as taking place in a campaign world where you can do stuff like that.
Generally, I'd say the smart cleric would work on protecting himself/finding a way to make the wizard exhaust his best spells --or getting within 10' of the wizard and casting Antimagic Field-- and then pummelling the wizard with a heavy mace.
Smart wizard would of course rely on versatility and dispelling a lot of buffs.
Overall, it boils down to speed and the creativity of the combatant. Which is about right.
The wizard has the diviner specialization. Wizard wins. Every time. He'd simply be too prepared for the cleric...and he'll always go first.
The wizard has the diviner specialization. Wizard wins. Every time. He'd simply be too prepared for the cleric...and he'll always go first.
What? Diviners are not omnipotent, all powerful, access to everything casters. What if the cleric has mind blank up, misdirection - non-detection.
What if he does go first, what shall he do? Since he had time to prep, did the cleric? As for divinations, are we assuming that the cleric can not cast similar spells?
The wizard has the diviner specialization. Wizard wins. Every time. He'd simply be too prepared for the cleric...and he'll always go first.What? Diviners are not omnipotent, all powerful, access to everything casters. What if the cleric has mind blank up, misdirection - non-detection.
What if he does go first, what shall he do? Since he had time to prep, did the cleric? As for divinations, are we assuming that the cleric can not cast similar spells?
Every divination spell a cleric prepares reduces his combat effectiveness. The diviner has bonus slots specifically set aside for such spells and thus is not similarly reduced. Furthermore, the diviner is by far the better spy and will generally know when the cleric is spying upon him in turn (and can thus take steps to prevent it, the cleric cannot do the same if he doesn't have reason to believe he is being spied upon).
At high levels the diviner will have a +8 to +10 bonus to initiative that the cleric won't (and the diviner will likely have a higher Dexterity as well as other initiative investments that a traditional cleric won't have). Tack on the fact that the diviner ALWAYS gets to act in the surprise round AND might even be able to take a 20 on his initiative roll, the cleric really doesn't stand much of a chance at all.
Like everyone has said, when everyone is so well prepared, it really comes down to who wins initiative or who makes a mistake. The diviner has the upper hand in having the high initiative AND in being less likely to make a mistake (by being generally better informed).
(1)Every divination spell a cleric prepares reduces his combat effectiveness. The diviner has bonus slots specifically set aside for such spells and thus is not similarly reduced. (2)Furthermore, the diviner is by far the better spy and will generally know when the cleric is spying upon him in turn (and can thus take steps to prevent it, (3)the cleric cannot do the same if he doesn't have reason to believe he is being spied upon).
At high levels the diviner will have a +8 to +10 bonus to initiative that the cleric won't (and the diviner will likely have a higher Dexterity as well as other initiative investments that a traditional cleric won't have). Tack on the fact that the diviner ALWAYS gets to act in the surprise round (4) AND might even be able to take a 20 on his initiative roll(5), the cleric really doesn't stand much of a chance at all.
Like everyone has said, when everyone is so well prepared, it really comes down to who wins initiative or who makes a mistake. The diviner has the upper hand in having the high initiative AND in being less likely to make a mistake (6) (by being generally better informed).
(1) Assuming that prep-time now includes lengthy divinations.
(2) If someone knows you are a spy and that you are going to have a fight, wouldn't as a Wisdom 24+ character take some precautions?(3) See #2
(4) Still flat foot though, if he does lose.
(5) So now we may have a level 20.
(6) Why would he be less likely to make a mistake?
(1)Every divination spell a cleric prepares reduces his combat effectiveness. The diviner has bonus slots specifically set aside for such spells and thus is not similarly reduced. (2)Furthermore, the diviner is by far the better spy and will generally know when the cleric is spying upon him in turn (and can thus take steps to prevent it, (3)the cleric cannot do the same if he doesn't have reason to believe he is being spied upon).
At high levels the diviner will have a +8 to +10 bonus to initiative that the cleric won't (and the diviner will likely have a higher Dexterity as well as other initiative investments that a traditional cleric won't have). Tack on the fact that the diviner ALWAYS gets to act in the surprise round (4) AND might even be able to take a 20 on his initiative roll(5), the cleric really doesn't stand much of a chance at all.
Like everyone has said, when everyone is so well prepared, it really comes down to who wins initiative or who makes a mistake. The diviner has the upper hand in having the high initiative AND in being less likely to make a mistake (6) (by being generally better informed).
(1) Assuming that prep-time now includes lengthy divinations.
(2) If someone knows you are a spy and that you are going to have a fight, wouldn't as a Wisdom 24+ character take some precautions?
(3) See #2
(4) Still flat foot though, if he does lose.
(5) So now we may have a level 20.
(6) Why would he be less likely to make a mistake?
I think that the diviner will be better prepared and almost guaranteed to go first. However, you do bring up a good point about high Wisdom. A high wisdom character would be far less likely to make mistakes--even when compared to a well prepared diviner.
I guess that means it's down to whoever goes first. Oh wait. Diviner wins.
My money is on the wizard. Wizards being the squishes they are, make a living at not being harmed. As a popular poster will tell you they also control reality. He who controls reality wins.
Thanks for all the posts :)
I noticed that people weren't considering CONTINGENCY. I mean, if a wizard sets his contingency to teleport away whenever he's target of a weapon or a spell, there should be no way for the cleric to hit him...am i wrong ?
I mean if wizard win initiative it's time stop ,delayed fireball,disjunctions,summons and whatsoever is in your mind... if cleric wins initiative whatever he does wizard disappear..
If i'm wrong tell me !!
lol it would be a silly contingency for an adventuring wizard
I know it's only a little fun, but really, who cares?
I know it's only a little fun, but really, who cares?
You are correct it is fun and I care only so much as I believe in what I say to be correct. ;-)
I still have not heard what amazing spell battery the diviner is going to throw at the cleric.
Anyone got anything? Wizard - 20th level diviner/Int 30.
I was mulling this over last night and assuming the following
- Neutral Ground- 200' x 200' x 200' arena
- Assume precombat buffing of 1 minute/per level spells
- Summoned Minions as needed
- No use of leadership feat
- Core Spells only
- NPC gear and elite ability distribution
I think given those stipulations, the cleric has a moderately good chance of winning.
Both sides need to avoid being grappled - Ring of Freedom is pretty much a required item
Both sides will want some form of SR
Both sides will want boosted saves - Cloak of Resistance
Both sides will have a bound ally - Good creatures will have Planetar, Evil will be Marlith/Horned Devil or if we are talking lvl 20 a pit fiend or Balor.
Both sides will have protection from [alignment] spells up.
As long as the Cleric can avoid being hit with a 1 shot he's got some significant advantages. The mage has to worry about both the cleric and the planetar. Further the Wizard can definitely be KO'ed with an implosion effect.
I think the wizard will go for time stop + summons + prismatic sphere and turtle up until the cleric is weakened significantly and then go for the kill.
Ultimately though unless you assume the dimension lock on the arena any high level caster is going to bug out via teleport/plane shift/word of recall and live to fight another day.
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I still say Cleric. They are going to need less gear for the fight than the Wizard. The Wizard, particularly the Diviner, is going to have a lot of spells needing expensive components, because the upper level Divinations tend to be very costly.
But there are a few things that would need to be determined.
1.) Are these two built to fight each other or are they built to be a typical version of their particular role in a group. This favores the Cleric, either way, but moreso if they are built to fight each other, because they can opt to take Domains that specifically make them more effective against the Wizard, but not so for the Wizard against the Cleric.
2.) What are the alignments? Allowing the Wizard to be anyting Neutral really tips the favor towards them, as PF has significantly changed many of the protection and ward style buffs in regards to alignment.
3.) Can you use Miracle/Wish to autowin Initiative?
4.) Is escape even allowed? I would assume that teleporting away means you lose. What are the conditions for winning? I assumned fight to the death, (even if the character doesn't actually die, such as a WoW duel.)
5.) There needs to be a hard limit on prep time. Like 1 minute. This honeslt probably favores the Wizard in the end a bit, but it cuts down on some rediculousness. if they are starting 200ft away, they can single move and cast, if they need more.
6.) Is counterspelling allowed? Personally, I'm not a fan, but this will certainly tip it in favor of the Cleric if the Wizards Specializes.
7.) Lastly, what types of creatures are they allowed to have? An Evil Cleric/Necromancer is likely to have undead minions, which should not be taken from their starting cash. Some Clerics might also have an Animal Companion, well specifically an Alternate Animal Companion. What is allowed? Straight, by-the-book? A bit of freedom, like taking things listed in teh Bestiary that say they are ok for the correct level?
Thanks for all the posts :)
I noticed that people weren't considering CONTINGENCY. I mean, if a wizard sets his contingency to teleport away whenever he's target of a weapon or a spell, there should be no way for the cleric to hit him...am i wrong ?
Worst contingency ever.
I imagine that once the diviner won initiative, he would hurl a quickened dispel magic the cleric's way (in hopes of knocking out any energy resistance), then cast time stop, which would then be chock full of lots of (empowered?) delayed blast fireballs (since clerics don't often have the best Dexterity scores or Reflex saves).
This is the most straight forward method. Much more effective, albeit convoluted methods are also possible.
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I imagine that once the diviner won initiative, he would hurl a quickened dispel magic the cleric's way (in hopes of knocking out any energy resistance), then cast time stop, which would then be chock full of lots of (empowered?) delayed blast fireballs (since clerics don't often have the best Dexterity scores or Reflex saves).
This is the most straight forward method. Much more effective, albeit convoluted methods are also possible.
Unless it is a Cleric of Fire and/or Trickry. . ., than it is the Cleric that throws out the Times Stop, walks up to the Wizard, Antimagic Fields-up and beats the absolutey helpless Wizard down with a masterwork Heavy Mace, while all those preSummoned creatures can't do a thing about it. (I ready an action to move with him as he tries to move away, AoO's each time, or heck, I just grapple him, tie him up, . . .)
Or plans on said Wizards blowing all those Fire spells that are not going to hurt him much. Also remember, PF Clerics tend to have better Dex than older editions, with light or medium armor, rather than Heavy, so should be pretty equal to the Wizard, there.
You are way underestmating the Cleric. Wizards are strong, just not so much against Clerics. There are few things that the Cleric, even genric Cleric can't easily counter, if not throw right back in their face.
I imagine that once the diviner won initiative, he would hurl a quickened dispel magic the cleric's way (in hopes of knocking out any energy resistance), then cast time stop, which would then be chock full of lots of (empowered?) delayed blast fireballs (since clerics don't often have the best Dexterity scores or Reflex saves).
This is the most straight forward method. Much more effective, albeit convoluted methods are also possible.
Quickened Dispel Magic is a crap move even if it's being fueled by a Lesser Metamagic Wand. The chances of hitting the right buff in order to get off the DBF spam is pretty damned low.
Fire Resistance + Reflex Saves + SR make this a pretty risky strategy especially since you know that Planetar is going to crush you unless you have some sort of barrier up. That's why I think Prismatic Sphere is the mage's safe base of operations.
Just a quick look at items make a 20th level Cleric, a 24th level caster and gains daily spells as a 22nd level caster.
If we start using shapechanges, gates - this gets really messy quickly.
Are people assuming that it is a straight cleric vs. wizard?
Because, clearly all the gay wizard would do is cast glitterdust and colorspray? Is that what you're implying, SIR!!!???!?
Nah I'm pretty sure they meant single classed.
Clearly, all of you are insane.
The real winner would be the level 17+ Rogue that nobody saw. He waits for the end of the spell duel, then sneak attacks the injured and despelled victor. Then he has ample time to loot both corpses.
:D
Whenever a cleric and a wizard are having a duel, I win.