I really believe a SUMMONER needs to have access to SM 7-9. You're not much of a summoner if you can't perform those, something a wizard or even cleric can do.
Personally, make them spell-like abilities and not spells. I'd say at 1st-level they do Summon Monster I as a spell-like ability 1/day. At 4th and every 4 levels thereafter, you can use it an additional time per day. Caster level equals summoner level. At 3rd-level you can use SM2, 5th can use SM3, etc. all the way to 17th-level for SM9.
So that'll be a 20 Summoner that can use as a spell-like ability 6/day any SM from 1 to 9. What's wrong with that? Throw in some feats that can adjust this ability however a player chooses and you're set to go.
Got a news flash for you:
The summoner gets access to SM 7~9. He can cast these spells more often than anyone else in the game (up to some 17 castings per day) and does so as a standard action and his SM's last minutes a level instead of rounds.
So no he really doesn't need anymore.
To be fair, Abe, a Summoner is using spell-like abilities to do so, not spells per day.
The OP specifically demanded that they be made spell like abilities...
Gotta agree with the summon nature's ally addition. Either way, that will be house ruled in my game.
To be fair, Abe, a Summoner is using spell-like abilities to do so, not spells per day.
A) That was what Razz asked for.
B) Would you rather have him cast spells? Casting time one full round and duration 1 round per level?C) You do know that "A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component. " This mean he can cast it in a Silenced area or even if he is grappled or Paralysed.
D) Razz wanted 6 SPAs per day at lvl 20, now he will have at least 12 per day. And he have SM as spells.
Razz I have a question for you. Have you read the new summoner?
You say "Personally, make them spell-like abilities and not spells", well as Abe said. You have what you asked for and more.
Abe your math is off. It times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.
Start with 17 and +5 (+1 per four levels)and +6 item it's 28 = 9 + 3 = 12
Even if he starts with 18 and use 5 wish spells it's only 12+3 = 15 times per day.
Abe your math is off. It times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.
Start with 17 and +5 (+1 per four levels)and +6 item it's 28 = 9 + 3 = 12
Even if he starts with 18 and use 5 wish spells it's only 12+3 = 15 times per day.
Ability scores increase by +2 every 4 levels in Pathfinder?
Ok, I read it wrong. I really ought to get other people to do math for me.
Have to agree on the 'SLA allows any summon spell of appropriate level', so summon monster, summon nature's ally, etc.
Technically, a character could reach a Charisma score of 39 over 20 levels (39 = +14; which exactly gives 17 SLAs per day):
Charisma score 18
+2 Racial (Human, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Gnome or Halfling)
+3 Venerable Age (+3 all mental scores, -6 all physical scores)
+5 Ability Score increments
+5 Inherent from Wish spell or Tome of Leadership and Influence
+6 Enhancement from Headband of Alluring Charisma (after being worn for 24 hours, the bonus becomes 'permanent', which means it affects even bonus spells per day, for example)
= 39
Of course, such a character would be physically EXTREMELY crippled, but even without the Venerable Age you could still reach an astonishing 36 Charisma (+13) for a total of 16 SLA per day.
Hard to destroy something when it's already a joke. I love Pathfinder, but it's based off D&D, which has never had anything resembling a coherent economy...
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The reason they took those spells off the Summoner's normal spell list was that their presence there meant that the summoner could scribe level 6 summon monster 9 scrolls, which could then be purchased for the price of a level 6 scroll. This would have significantly distorted the magic item economy.
It's the same reason they moved haste, etc. Back to 3rd level.
Ken
It doesn't explain why they cut it back so much. Summoners could have maintained Summon Monster VII as a 6th lvl spell and Haste as a 2nd. Bard's gain access to a number of spells at an earlier spell level than other classes and i haven't heard a massive cry to change their spell list due to fragile magical economy.
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You know what I think, I think that the Summoner shouldn't gain any of the summon spells as spells. They should gain them only as Spell Like Abilities, have the summons have max HP and maybe gain improvements on them later like bonus Str, Dex, Con, AC, DR, Fast Healing, or something of the like. I just don't see why they need the spells and spell like abilities, when the spell like abilities are better and if you gave them some more improvements beyond the faster casting and longer duration it would make it unique and something that you would want to do.
You know what I think, I think that the Summoner shouldn't gain any of the summon spells as spells. They should gain them only as Spell Like Abilities, have the summons have max HP and maybe gain improvements on them later like bonus Str, Dex, Con, AC, DR, Fast Healing, or something of the like. I just don't see why they need the spells and spell like abilities, when the spell like abilities are better and if you gave them some more improvements beyond the faster casting and longer duration it would make it unique and something that you would want to do.
I agree, Have them as SLAs, then tack on bonuses to make them "THE" summoners" I like that.
You know what I think, I think that the Summoner shouldn't gain any of the summon spells as spells. They should gain them only as Spell Like Abilities, have the summons have max HP and maybe gain improvements on them later like bonus Str, Dex, Con, AC, DR, Fast Healing, or something of the like. I just don't see why they need the spells and spell like abilities, when the spell like abilities are better and if you gave them some more improvements beyond the faster casting and longer duration it would make it unique and something that you would want to do.I agree, Have them as SLAs, then tack on bonuses to make them "THE" summoners" I like that.
Take the Augment Summoning feat from PF Core. Voila.
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Take the Augment Summoning feat from PF Core. Voila.You know what I think, I think that the Summoner shouldn't gain any of the summon spells as spells. They should gain them only as Spell Like Abilities, have the summons have max HP and maybe gain improvements on them later like bonus Str, Dex, Con, AC, DR, Fast Healing, or something of the like. I just don't see why they need the spells and spell like abilities, when the spell like abilities are better and if you gave them some more improvements beyond the faster casting and longer duration it would make it unique and something that you would want to do.I agree, Have them as SLAs, then tack on bonuses to make them "THE" summoners" I like that.
Yeah, I was thinking of going even farther possibly, with DR, Fast Healing, Energy Resistance or Immunity, etc. Just making it so that the Eidolon isn't the only summon that the summoner gets thats powerful or worth noting. As is stands SPA Summons are no more powerful than the Spell Summons just that they last longer, and I think that they should be differentiated more.
Take the Augment Summoning feat from PF Core. Voila.You know what I think, I think that the Summoner shouldn't gain any of the summon spells as spells. They should gain them only as Spell Like Abilities, have the summons have max HP and maybe gain improvements on them later like bonus Str, Dex, Con, AC, DR, Fast Healing, or something of the like. I just don't see why they need the spells and spell like abilities, when the spell like abilities are better and if you gave them some more improvements beyond the faster casting and longer duration it would make it unique and something that you would want to do.I agree, Have them as SLAs, then tack on bonuses to make them "THE" summoners" I like that.
Speaking of which, I believe that doesn't help the Summoner for the same reason the Beguiler class abilities didn't benefit it taking the Mindbender prestige class - the feat applies to spells cast, SLAs are not spells.
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Speaking of which, I believe that doesn't help the Summoner for the same reason the Beguiler class abilities didn't benefit it taking the Mindbender prestige class - the feat applies to spells cast, SLAs are not spells.Take the Augment Summoning feat from PF Core. Voila.You know what I think, I think that the Summoner shouldn't gain any of the summon spells as spells. They should gain them only as Spell Like Abilities, have the summons have max HP and maybe gain improvements on them later like bonus Str, Dex, Con, AC, DR, Fast Healing, or something of the like. I just don't see why they need the spells and spell like abilities, when the spell like abilities are better and if you gave them some more improvements beyond the faster casting and longer duration it would make it unique and something that you would want to do.I agree, Have them as SLAs, then tack on bonuses to make them "THE" summoners" I like that.
It was stated before that augmented summoning is treated as casting the appropriate summon monster spell.... which means it does benefit from Augment Summoning. And their not being "spells" doesn't mean spell resistance doesn't apply to them :)
I really believe a SUMMONER needs to have access to SM 7-9. You're not much of a summoner if you can't perform those, something a wizard or even cleric can do.
Dude, the summoner is still very effective even after the minor nerf he received. d8 hitpoints, a selection of some of the best arcane spells in the game, armor, a monster eidolen, spell like abilities that let him summon monsters willy nilly as standard actions (not full round)...
I actually would nerf him a little more and get rid of the d8 hit dice. It doesn't make sense. Summoners do not actually go into combat. In fact, they are more 'behind the lines' types than the sorcerer that has d6 hit dice.
Also, why the heck do summoners have any armor proficiency? Shouldn't they use summoned (mage) armor?
That's because they're base on the bard, a secondary caster. They are meant to be able to ride their Eidolon if they want and use buffs to be repectable combatants.
Now its more like:
Round 1.- Summon
Round 2.- Cast something
Round 3.- Thats it.
Humbly,
Yawar
the summoner is still very effective even after the minor nerf he received. d8 hitpoints, a selection of some of the best arcane spells in the game, armor, a monster eidolen, spell like abilities that let him summon monsters willy nilly as standard actions (not full round)...
I actually would nerf him a little more and get rid of the d8 hit dice. It doesn't make sense. Summoners do not actually go into combat. In fact, they are more 'behind the lines' types than the sorcerer that has d6 hit dice.
Also, why the heck do summoners have any armor proficiency? Shouldn't they use summoned (mage) armor?
I disagree, Compare them to a Druid if it helps. Druids have an animal companion, d8 hitpoints, Wears hide armor (almost same as chain shirt), has 2/3 base attack, and cast spells. Druid is just a divine caster and the summoner is an arcane flavor of that.
I dont think they even have close to the "best arcane spells in the game", and as of now i dont think they compare to a druid. They need their LIMITED spell list expanded or keep it limited but let the spells go up to lvl 9 like a druid. Just keep a tight rein on what spells you let them have.
I think having lvl 9 spells might be too much so i like to see them get the expanded spell list maybe including Cure light, moderate, and serious wounds at one lvl higher. So Cure light would be 2nd lvl, Moderate 3rd lvl, and Serious would be 4th lvl. This would help them alot in utility
Flavor wise the summoner is using extraplanar help in order to give them the power they need.
Summoned creatures are ablative armor, they are taking hits that the rest of the party would otherwise be taking. That means the party requires less healing at the end of the battle. Sure CLW would be nice but if you really want to be a healing summoner you should accomplish that with UMD + summoned creatures with healing abilities.
With a shelf life of 1 minute per caster level, a good summoner should pretty much always be using a lantern archon by level 5 (aid at will is pretty decent), the bralani at level 9 (cure serious 2/day), the lillend at level 11 (7th level bard - cure light wounds), and the Ghaele at 17th (13th level cleric + at will clw). Fast Healing Evolution on the Eidolon keeps him in the game without needing to expend too many resources.
Honestly though the summoner is definitely a very strong half-caster I think he's at least as powerful as the pathfinder bard and probably more potent than the 3.5 duskblade
Comparing the summoner to the druid is a false dichotomy because it's pretty clear that divine casters receive some benefits (d8 HP, Armor, Full Casting, Domain Use, decent weapons, 3/4 BAB progression)vis-a-vis arcane casters (d6 HP, No armor, Full Casting, crap weapons, 1/2 BAB progression).
In comparison to the wizard, the summoner gets an increase in HP, and increase in BAB, limited armor, better weapons and still has access to good buffed summon spells (including Gate), and a pretty awesome pet and people are complaining about his utility?
Sure he doesn't have some of the big wizard spells (Time Stop, Disjunction, etc) and probably takes a hit in sheer utility but he still has a decent spell selection and his durability is increased. I think that's a worthwhile trade off.
I will agree to most of what you said. I never thought about summoning creatures that can heal. But i still think they need a larger selection of spells for the 6 levels of spells they have. I dont think they need any evocation spells but they really do have a limited spell list.
Flavor wise the summoner is using extraplanar help in order to give them the power they need.
Summoned creatures are ablative armor, they are taking hits that the rest of the party would otherwise be taking. That means the party requires less healing at the end of the battle. Sure CLW would be nice but if you really want to be a healing summoner you should accomplish that with UMD + summoned creatures with healing abilities.
With a shelf life of 1 minute per caster level, a good summoner should pretty much always be using a lantern archon by level 5 (aid at will is pretty decent), the bralani at level 9 (cure serious 2/day), the lillend at level 11 (7th level bard - cure light wounds), and the Ghaele at 17th (13th level cleric + at will clw). Fast Healing Evolution on the Eidolon keeps him in the game without needing to expend too many resources.
Honestly though the summoner is definitely a very strong half-caster I think he's at least as powerful as the pathfinder bard and probably more potent than the 3.5 duskblade
Comparing the summoner to the druid is a false dichotomy because it's pretty clear that divine casters receive some benefits (d8 HP, Armor, Full Casting, Domain Use, decent weapons, 3/4 BAB progression)vis-a-vis arcane casters (d6 HP, No armor, Full Casting, crap weapons, 1/2 BAB progression).
In comparison to the wizard, the summoner gets an increase in HP, and increase in BAB, limited armor, better weapons and still has access to good buffed summon spells (including Gate), and a pretty awesome pet and people are complaining about his utility?
Sure he doesn't have some of the big wizard spells (Time Stop, Disjunction, etc) and probably takes a hit in sheer utility but he still has a decent spell selection and his durability is increased. I think that's a worthwhile trade off.
The mass of spells is what makes the Wizard a powerhouse, if good armor and good attack and high HP made you worthwhile, the Fighter would dominate. It's not and they don't. You can't say "well they have higher hp!" and be done with it because of the lack of spells. Summoner is actually as poor a comparison to the Wizard as the Fighter is.
The people who made D&D really loved their divine casters and divinity in general. You can't give up the Divination school, Clerics are monsters and Druids are sacred cows. The only valid comparison for the Summoner is the Druid, or possibly the Bard, for direct comparison anyway.
Comparing with the druid, the summoner is very weak now.
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........................Druid.....Summoner
HD:...................D8........D8
BaB:.................3/4.......3/4
Skills:...............4.........2 (and a bad selection)
Spell casting:...Full......Medium
Class abilities:.Good......Medium
Companion:......Medium....Medium
Spells known:...All.......Some
Also, the druid has automatic access to 9 summoning spells, can cast them spontaneously, and more than one at the same time.
IMO, right now, the Druid is a better summoner than the Summoner.
The mass of spells is what makes the Wizard a powerhouse, if good armor and good attack and high HP made you worthwhile, the Fighter would dominate. It's not and they don't. You can't say "well they have higher hp!" and be done with it because of the lack of spells. Summoner is actually as poor a comparison to the Wizard as the Fighter is.
The people who made D&D really loved their divine casters and divinity in general. You can't give up the Divination school, Clerics are monsters and Druids are sacred cows. The only valid comparison for the Summoner is the Druid, or possibly the Bard, for direct comparison anyway.
The point I was trying to make is that instead of being utterly worthless in combat like the wizard the summoner can actually contribute.
3/4 BAB, light armor, simple weapons means that the summoner can actually get stuff done outside of casting. An elf summoner (free long bow proficiency) can be a decent archer, can wear a mithral breastplate (15% spell failure), has decent HPs to survive when he gets hit by a full attack, and can ignore spell failure on his SLAs. Combined with his eidolon bodyguard this is definitely a decent build.
Eventually the summoner will probably get quicken SLA and can cast his summon SLA at the same time that he's making full attacks with his bow or casting battlefield control spells. Combined with his Eidolon's full attacks the summoner does very good in the action economy.
Yes, the level 20 summoner is less powerful in many ways than a level 20 wizard but that's the case with virtually every class in the game (3.x has some that are close or better). I would even admit that the summoner is inferior to the cleric and the 3.x druid (Pathfinder Druid got nerfed quite a bit I'm kinda fuzzy on his maximum effectiveness). I think those classes are more of a function of how overpowered the big 3 full casters are (sorceror is generally seen as quite a bit weaker) not that the summoner is too weak. I'd rather set the baseline for a good class at tier 2-3 rather than make every class a tier 1. That way sometime down the road we can nerf the big three quadratic classes to get them down to the level of the other classes.
I also fully admit that IMHO Monte and company screwed up the balance when they boosted the divine casters so much. I think there was an assumption that divine casters would still do a lot of healing (healbot r us) but in most campaigns healing has become almost exclusively the province of wand use and clerics are free to focus on buffing, debuffing and occasional blasts. 3.x Druids and Polymorph was simply a horrible ability that basically meant min/maxers could be be awesome in melee and as casters. Fortunately Paizo has decided to fix most of those problems.
I forgot to mention the mother of all summoning spells --- No access to Gate!?
It's just something I KNOW my players are going to point out. "What? My summoner can't SUMMON monsters from 7-9 and Gate? I should've played a Conjurer!"
If the Eidolon is what is important to the Summoner, then please call the class by a different name. It's like having a pizza with no cheese and pepperoni yet still calling it a pizza.
I forgot to mention the mother of all summoning spells --- No access to Gate!?
It's just something I KNOW my players are going to point out. "What? My summoner can't SUMMON monsters from 7-9 and Gate? I should've played a Conjurer!"
If the Eidolon is what is important to the Summoner, then please call the class by a different name. It's like having a pizza with no cheese and pepperoni yet still calling it a pizza.
As stated above, a Summoner CAN summon monsters from the Summon Monster VII-IX lists, and even conjure monsters through Gate - only thing is, they don't do it through spells but through their Spell-Like Ability...
"Summon Monster I (Sp): Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. He can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level). At 3rd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the power of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing him to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum of summon monster IX at 17th level). At 19th level, this ability can be used as gate or summon monster IX. If used as gate, the summoner must pay any required material components. A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends."
I forgot to mention the mother of all summoning spells --- No access to Gate!?
Page 32. Table 3-1. 19th level.
You can only use one SLA a time, making it worse than spells in fights. Also, SLAs can't be modified by metamagic feats.
Summoner: Summon, buff, try to be a fighter(very weak)
Conjurer: Summon, Summon, Summon...
Wich one is the actual summoner?
You can only use one SLA a time, making it worse than spells in fights. Also, SLAs can't be modified by metamagic feats.
Isn't the Eidolon better than anything you could summon? That's 2 summons, both can easily be pre-cast, and the summoner buffs them and his allies. If the summon goes away, summon another AS A STANDARD ACTION and repeat. Or have the summon that WAS casting and healing go away and summon something else. You can cycle them.
I just don't see another celectial orca turning the battle...
Or again, you can use:
- Big E (the main feature of the class - or, as I say, 'the real class', with the Summoner being its 'Animal Companion' :D )
- SLA to summon/ gate in a single creature (OR a lot of lesser creatures - hey, if you emulate Summon Monster VII with a spell-like ability, you can always take 1d4+1 creatures from the Summon Monster V list, for example)
- Summon, Summon, Summon... with the spells
So you basically have the Eidolon, a/some competitive Summoned creature(s) (on par of that of a spell, excluding only bonuses from the Augment Summoning feat - which you can always emulate with both Bull's Strength and Bear's Endurance), and a lot of fodder creatures from your real spells (which CAN benefit from Augment Summoning, btw).
Just my 2c.
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You can only use one SLA a time, making it worse than spells in fights. Also, SLAs can't be modified by metamagic feats.
Isn't the Eidolon better than anything you could summon? That's 2 summons, both can easily be pre-cast, and the summoner buffs them and his allies. If the summon goes away, summon another AS A STANDARD ACTION and repeat. Or have the summon that WAS casting and healing go away and summon something else. You can cycle them.
I just don't see another celectial orca turning the battle...
Or again, you can use:
- Big E (the main feature of the class - or, as I say, 'the real class', with the Summoner being its 'Animal Companion' :D )
- SLA to summon/ gate in a single creature (OR a lot of lesser creatures - hey, if you emulate Summon Monster VII with a spell-like ability, you can always take 1d4+1 creatures from the Summon Monster V list, for example)
- Summon, Summon, Summon... with the spellsSo you basically have the Eidolon, a/some competitive Summoned creature(s) (on par of that of a spell, excluding only bonuses from the Augment Summoning feat - which you can always emulate with both Bull's Strength and Bear's Endurance), and a lot of fodder creatures from your real spells (which CAN benefit from Augment Summoning, btw).
Just my 2c.
You'd have to find it, but I am pretty sure Jason said Augmented Summoning works with the SLA.
Options for a high level summoner include the following
- Summon big 'E'
- Order previously Bound Planar Servant
- Cast SLA summon
- Cast Spell
- Attack with weapon
Remember that SLAs do not require material component expenditure so that Gate SLA at 17th level? Planetar for 17 minutes that you don't need to pay for. Definitely awesome. This ability here is why you don't get more than 1 at a time, otherwise you are talking Planetar, Pit Fiend or Balor cascades with multiples dominating the battlefield.
Need fodder? Use a spell slot on summon monster spells. You aren't limited to 1 at a time with spell driven summon monster spells.
So you basically have the Eidolon, a/some competitive Summoned creature(s) (on par of that of a spell, excluding only bonuses from the Augment Summoning feat - which you can always emulate with both Bull's Strength and Bear's Endurance), and a lot of fodder creatures from your real spells (which CAN benefit from Augment Summoning, btw).
Summon Monster 6 at 19/20th level is not going to benefit noticeably at all from Augment Summoning.
You'd have to find it, but I am pretty sure Jason said Augmented Summoning works with the SLA.
Which is completely counter how every OTHER magic modifying feat works.
Also, would that mean that the Eidolon, as a summoned creature, would benefit from Augment Summoning.
You'd have to find it, but I am pretty sure Jason said Augmented Summoning works with the SLA.Which is completely counter how every OTHER magic modifying feat works.
Also, would that mean that the Eidolon, as a summoned creature, would benefit from Augment Summoning.The exception was explicitly stated by the class designers in another thread, so is really not up for discussion. And Augment Summoning IS unlike "every OTHER magic modifying feat". It certainly is NOT a metamagic feat. It may be closest to Spell Penetration or Spell Focus, but is much more specific in bonuses and spells affected.
And an Eidolin is not summoned through a summoning spell or SLA. It makes sense to translate feats to SLA's. Eidolon, though, is not.
Spell Penetration is indeed less specific and Augment Summoning and Spell Focus are equally explicit. So if Augment Summoning applies to SLA, so would Spell Focus and Spell Penetration (which I don't recall hearing before so I am just stating it directly here).
Eidolon's rules say it is a summoned creature, though there is never any statement about HOW it is summoned in the class table. That appears to be another one of those things that got left out.And note to designers: stating random things in threads isn't beneficial when they arn't followed by rules errata.
Spells known:...Good...Good
What?! More like:
Spells known:...All.......Some (from a good list)
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EDIT: Check out this thread thread
I believe it makes sense, and I don't know whether it is a specific exception or if there is some underlying rules reason to allow augmented summoning to work with slas
Which is completely counter how every OTHER magic modifying feat works.
Also, would that mean that the Eidolon, as a summoned creature, would benefit from Augment Summoning.
Lets see how many other exception rules the summoner has.
1. Summoner shares magic items with its companion.
2. companion can't wear armor.
3. Bipedal Eidolon gets reach at large but no extra reach going huge. I guess its arms stop growing
4. Eidolon is summoned sorta even tho technically its not considered summoned. see ritual below. Can't be dispelled and can attack through a magic circle but can be dismissed and banished.
5. Eidolon companion has to be near summoner or it loses hit points. That is a weird mechanic.
6. Spell like ability can only have one active, takes a standard to cast ands lasts a minite a level. Augment summoning apparently works on the SLA because the powers that be said so.
7. Eidolon is summoned with a ritual? Since it is summoned with said ritual apparently augment summoning don't work.
This class is going to be a rules nightmare for months to come.