They still don't state whether they increase the Eidolon's reach. This is a valid question because reach isn't a 1:1 correlation with size; Horses only have 5' reach despite having a 10' space, for example.
That really doesn't make much sense, though. Name me a Huge creature with only 5' reach? It needs to be clarified. Note that the Bestiary also doesn't say to increase reach when changing the size of a creature.
Well since there's a 1-point evolution for reach already I'd say the size change does not affect your reach.
Well since there's a 1-point evolution which affects reach already I'd say the size change does not affect your reach.
** spoiler omitted **
There's also a 2-point evolution that increases your Strength. Should the size evolution thus not increase Strength?
It specifically grants strength. It does not grant reach. If it granted reach, it would say it granted reach and would specify how much.
-S
Except the size evolution already states it gives an unnamed bonus to Strength. Whereas it does not mention reach.
Due the the fact that it says unless otherwise noted, each evolution can only be taken once, im lead to believe that its reach must increase with size, otherwise you are going to have a huge size creature with the ability to make a few attacks with only 5' reach and AT BEST one attack with 10' reach. Sounds silly to me.
It specifically grants strength. It does not grant reach. If it granted reach, it would say it granted reach and would specify how much.
-S
So that applies to the Bestiary as well, right? Because the Bestiary rules for increasing a creature's size don't mention reach at all.
If the bestiary rules for it don't increase reach then why do you think the Eidolon should be granted it for size increases?
-S
Looking through the PRD section on monsters the only bits I could find about it is that when creating a brand new monster, the DM basically assigns reach as he or she sees fit.
(Monster Creation, Step 10, in the PRD)
It used to be tied to the size of the creature but I do not think that it is any longer.
-S
Looking through the PRD section on monsters the only bits I could find about it is that when creating a brand new monster, the DM basically assigns reach as he or she sees fit.
(Monster Creation, Step 10, in the PRD)It used to be tied to the size of the creature but I do not think that it is any longer.
-S
Step 5: Statistics
Next, adjust the creature's derived statistics, such as its initiative, AC, saving throws, melee and ranged attack bonuses, BAB, CMB, and CMD. Adjust any special attacks or qualities that are based on the creature's size, Hit Dice, or ability scores. If the creature changed in size, be sure to adjust its AC, attack, CMB, and CMD accordingly (as noted on Table: Size Bonuses and Penalties). Table: Monster Advancement also tracks the average change to the creature's AC, attack rolls, and damage rolls. Add up these values for each step of change between the creature's original and new CR. If the creature changed size, make sure to make changes to its natural armor bonus, as noted on Table: Size Changes. If the creature does not meet these averages, you should consider adjusting its ability scores or Hit Dice to get it closer to the target.
So by your interpretation, a Dragon doesn't gain advanced reach by going from size Tiny (wyrmling) to size Colossal (great wyrm). Nowhere in the Dragon rules does it say that reach increases with size. Yet, miraculously, larger dragons have longer reach! What an amazing concept.
Seems you've found a bit of a crack in the system, nothing specific with the evolution though. A clarification on the mechanic as a whole would be nice.
|
So by your interpretation, a Dragon doesn't gain advanced reach by going from size Tiny (wyrmling) to size Colossal (great wyrm). Nowhere in the Dragon rules does it say that reach increases with size. Yet, miraculously, larger dragons have longer reach! What an amazing concept.So you're surprised that monster advancement rules are not explicitly followed when generating specific monsters? JJ stated not too long ago that this is exactly the case, and monsters should be adjusted accordingly.
Anyway, an Ancient Black Dragon has reach 10, 15 with bite. How did it get that? Can size alone explain this? Or why a Large Young Adult has reach 5 but bite reach 10?
BUT, somehow a huge black pudding only has reach 10. And a huge giant has reach 15.
It does not seem to be the case that reach is tied in with size. There must be another factor in play.
yeah, I contend attack type. The dragons head is on a long neck, thus the increased reach for the bite over the claws. The huge giant has arms. It appears that attacks that are tied to the main body( not protruding ) are behind the normal reach scale by 5', but protruding attacks increase by 5' per category above medium( the dragons claws are on legs which do not stick out toward the enemy ).
The same section on size and reach exists in Pathfinder as it did in 3.5e:
Large, Huge, Gargantuan, and Colossal Creatures: Very large creatures take up more than 1 square.Creatures that take up more than 1 square typically have a natural reach of 10 feet or more, meaning that they can reach targets even if they aren't in adjacent squares.
Unlike when someone uses a reach weapon, a creature with greater than normal natural reach (more than 5 feet) still threatens squares adjacent to it. A creature with greater than normal natural reach usually gets an attack of opportunity against you if you approach it, because you must enter and move within the range of its reach before you can attack it. This attack of opportunity is not provoked if you take a 5-foot step.
Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike up to double their natural reach but can't strike at their natural reach or less.
There's also a chart that details the reach for long vs tall creatures of large+ sizes.
Hence why a Black Pudding (long) and a Giant (tall) have different reaches.
What's more interesting; there is a line notating off of the Reach column: ""
Since the Eidolon entry doesn't mention that it's an exception, we go by the general rule, which is that it gets reach with it's size.
The reason it can't state the new reach by default is because it would depend on the form it's currently in.
The Quadruped form would be "long", so it would have the lesser reach. Biped and Serpentine (since it has arms) would be considered "tall" (think Marilith) and would have the extended reach.
If you want to make your Eidolon like a dragon, give it the Quadruped form, and apply the Reach evolution to it's bite attack. Oh, and get Flight, Wing Buffet, Tail, etc.
It seems pretty clear cut to me. Consider that this is the same text being used for both 3.5e and Pathfinder, and there was never any real question in 3.5e for these kinds of things.
.
Honestly.. I can't picture a Huge creature with 5' reach arms. Little itty bitty 3 foot arms sticking out of a giant blob? Reminds me of Violet Beauregarde in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory... or a T-rex maybe... just... weird.
|
|
The Quadruped form would be "long", so it would have the lesser reach. Biped and Serpentine (since it has arms) would be considered "tall" (think Marilith) and would have the extended reach.
Serpents are Large (Long). See Giant Constrictors.
I think that the reason that there is no increase in reach for size is the variation in Eidolons. The Marilith is Large (Tall) and you could make a similar Eidolon. Or it could be a Large (Long) serpent like the constrictor.
You could do the same with a Quadruped by turning it into a Centaur-like creature. Although Centaurs have normal reach its because they're a medium sized creature on a horse essentially, it doesn't have to be described like that and could therefor be considered Large (Tall). I'm sure someone who felt like it could troll the Bestiary for a Large Quadruped that was Large (Tall).
I go by the general rule that states, when an ability specifically describes what it gives and leaves something off then its either an error, or its written as intended.
In this case they've left it off originally and in the rewrite. If it is an error they've had ample time to fix it and have chosen not to do so. Whether or not it originally was an error it appears to be as they want it to be right now.
If the evolution said "The Eidolon gains Large size." Then i would agree with you that it gains reach. It didn't do that however. It said it becomes large and then detailed exactly what it got. Reach wasn't on that list. I am left therefore to conclude that reach wasn't included and that it was done so on purpose.
Granted- it would be nice for them to just say "the large and huge evolutions do not grant reach" but until they add it to the list, it is not included in the list.
-S
Just as a "for the record" type thing... in the original thread where Jason asked for sample eidolons and Zurai posted "Rancor", it was huge size with 15' reach on Bite and Claws. People continued this trend throughout the thread and Jason posts saying goodjob every1 keep it up. I know this isnt a clear answer but, don't you think he would have corrected everyone on this bold assumption if it was false?
Since then he's also had ample posts to read where folks argued either way and could have fixed it by adding one small set of words in the large and huge evolutions to say "including reach" or some such, and did not do so.
Until the list has "reach" on it, then it isn't on the list.
They specified exactly what you get for your evolution points. Reach just isn't there. If the designers want it on the list, then they need to add it.
-S
Reach is open to some interpretation by the GM based on how the summoner creates his Eidolon like long or tall. The text is describing what the Eidolon gets when it is large/huge comes from the bestiary verbatim. It says nothing about reach in bestiary either. Most players probably won't have the bestiary and that is why it is reproduced. Unless it specifically states Eidolons don't get reach then you follow normal rules for increasing size. Like an ape going to large would get reach and a horse going to large would not. Pretty simple for non rules lawyers to understand.
If a DM tries to tell me my huge humanoid bi-pedal Eidolon has 5' reach I will just slap him over his head with the core rulebook and find me another group.
Well since there's a 1-point evolution for reach already I'd say the size change does not affect your reach.
** spoiler omitted **
There is a reach evolution so you can exceed your normal reach based on your shape/size. Maybe I want to make my medium Eidolon to have and extra long tail with 10' reach.
Well, if you hit your DM with a book, you will indeed be looking for a new group I suspect :)
If you want your large or huge Eidolon to have greater reach then spend the evolutions on it. As its written, you do not get it for free.
-S
Well, if you hit your DM with a book, you will indeed be looking for a new group I suspect :)
If you want your large or huge Eidolon to have greater reach then spend the evolutions on it. As its written, you do not get it for free.
-S
I disagree. As written, you can only take the reach evolution once, and only get 1 weapon from it. That is like a dragon's bite attack. It is a quadraped that gets extra reach with 1 weapon. They have rules for size increases that include increasing the creature's reach based off of type. Why should they not be applied?
Because they listed exactly what you get and it wasn't listed.
If they said you get all fruit and then list apples oranges and peaches, you don't also get pears.
They said which fruits you get even though they said "all".
The list limits it.
Because they listed exactly what you get and it wasn't listed.
If they said you get all fruit and then list apples oranges and peaches, you don't also get pears.
They said which fruits you get even though they said "all".
The list limits it.
And by your reasoning, you never apply reach increases to monsters you create or modify using the beastiary rules, as the wording is the same.
edit: by your logic, enlarge person would not give non-medium creatures additional reach. All it says is large humanoids have a base of 10ft and 10ft reach.
Don't get me wrong- I don't disagree that it sucks.
Being huge with 5ft reach is definitely odd. They didn't list it however as being something you get. Oversight? Intentional? They've done it twice now and we've been having this argument for awhile. (not this thread but on another one identical to it on the Summoner boards previously). Its hard to say they didn't mean to do it when they did it before, haven't mentioned it, and haven't fixed it.
Calling the original write up a mistake is fine by me but they had the chance to correct it and chose not to do so.
-S
Actually under the bestiary rules the Dm arbitrarily grants the spacing and reach of the monster he creates. Its the last step in the creation.
(Monster creation, step 10).
-S
Sorry, I edited my previous post, not expecting a response the quick. Enlarge person does not say to increase reach. It merely says large
humanoids have a reach of 10 feet. Does this mean that if you use it on a large bipedal big E that you would not increase his reach as he goes to huge, even though by your logic he would only have a 5ft reach, as it does not explicitly state what huge creatures get for reach?
If it explicitly lists what they get for the effect and something is left off of that list, then what is left off that list isn't received.
You can if and or but all around the rules, but the fact of the matter is that it is how it is. The list has to mean SOMETHING. Either its a list of what is received or it is a waste of space and ink. Given the space limitations I can't help but think the list was printed on purpose. Reach isn't included.
Does it suck? yes. Do I hope they change it? You bet.
But currently reach just isn't included.
-S
I've been trying to find anywhere in the rules where it says that increasing size grants you extended reach. So far, I've been unable to find it anywhere.
I don't just mean for the Eidolon - but any creature. I found the stuff about advancing a critter and how to increase (or decrease) abilities and damage based on their new size but none of it mentions reach.
While the discussion originated with the Eidolons and such I think a much larger problem has been found.
The rules as stated currently don't discuss any creature gaining or losing reach based on their size. Under the current rules, a Colossal creature shrunk to the size of a shrew would retain the reach it had while colossal while a shrew who grew colossal wouldn't threaten outside of its own square.
This is clearly an oversight when adapting the rules from 3.5 to current, and it needs to be fixed asap.
(regardless of the Eidolon issue)
-S
My guess is the exact language was included in the section with the size comparison chart which got left behind.
I feel like I have to repeat myself.
There are rules for reach for large creatures in Pathfinder already. This doesn't need to be addressed, because it's already all there in the rules.
Please, before you try and argue anything, you need to read the combat section. Here's a link to the section on the official PRD if you need it.
Go down to the section on "Big and Little Creatures in Combat". Read the very first line: ""
This means, when running a creature that is smaller than Small, or larger than Medium, you use these rules. It doesn't matter if they leave out text in the Eidolon entry or anywhere else... the rules for Large+ creatures are already assumed in the Combat section.
The game assumes you are playing with the rules laid out in the Combat section. If you have a Large creature, and it's "tall" (standing up with arms, etc), then it has 10' reach. If it's "long" (forearms on the ground), then it has 5' reach.
There is no missing chart... please actually look at the link, as the chart is there. If you want, I can try and copy/paste it here (although it will look ugly without proper spacing):
Table: Creature Size and Scale
Creature Size . . . Space . . . Natural Reach*
Fine . . . . . . . . . . .1/2 ft. . . . . . . . .0
Diminutive . . . . . . . 1 ft. . . . . . . . . 0
Tiny . . . . . . . . . 2-1/2 ft. . . . . . . . .0
Small . . . . . . . . . . . 5 ft. . . . . . . . 5 ft.
Medium . . . . . . . . . 5 ft. . . . . . . . 5 ft.
Large (tall) . . . . . . 10 ft. . . . . . . 10 ft.
Large (long) . . . . . 10 ft. . . . . . . . 5 ft.
Huge (tall) . . . . . . .15 ft. . . . . . . 15 ft.
Huge (long) . . . . . .15 ft. . . . . . . 10 ft.
Gargantuan (tall) . .20 ft. . . . . . . 20 ft.
Gargantuan (long) .20 ft. . . . . . . 15 ft.
Colossal (tall) . . . . 30 ft. . . . . . . 30 ft.
Colossal (long) . . . 30 ft. . . . . . . 20 ft.
* These values are typical for creatures of the indicated size. Some exceptions exist
Note the line that specifically calls out that this is typical so not having these numbers would be considered deviations. This means that if you want a Huge creature with only 5' reach, you are looking at requiring text that specifically states this.
Since the Eidolon doesn't have text saying that Huge follows any special or different rules for "Big Creatures in Combat", we have to go with the general rule, which is listed in the Combat section.
There are no missing rules. The only thing missing is text that would say this needs to be treated differently. Since there isn't, we treat it the same.
Huge Bipedal would have 15' reach naturally.
If it explicitly lists what they get for the effect and something is left off of that list, then what is left off that list isn't received.
Why? Why do you assume that?
I challenge you to find the text that says that if they don't list something in the evolution itself, that it can't be used if it's a rule somewhere else in the text (like the Combat section).
Where in the text does it say "Use only the stuff that is written in the evolution entry, to the point of ignoring rules in other parts of the book that say they should get these things."
I can't find that text. Since there isn't any text saying that the Combat rules are suddenly null and void, we go by what the combat rules state.
.
For an example of why that line about "typical reach" is important: check the Lamia entry.
It is a Large creature with arms, which should make it tall. However, it has specific text detailing how it's tail makes it large, but it's upper torso (which makes it tall) is Medium sized, and therefore it uses Medium sized weapons and has only 5' reach.
Since there is no text in the Eidolon evolution stating that it specifically doesn't benefit from the rules in the Combat section, we assume it gains reach based on the chart.
Thank you for finding the block for reach. Glad to know they put it in an obvious place.. (sarcasm!)
However.
Still, not convinced about Eidolons. They list specifically what you get. Reach isn't there. Therefore, its excluded.
If they had just said "Taking this evolution increases the size of the creature to Large with all accompanying benefits" and then the same with huge then i would agree. They did not however do that.
Instead, they said you become large /and then spelled out what you get/. for Huge, they then did the exact same thing.
Furthermore- there is a Reach evolution that you can choose to take.
When they list what you get, what is excluded from that list is excluded from what you get.
-S
I'm using common sense.
If the list isn't a list of what you get then its absolutely meaningless. Absolutely. Waste of space, waste of ink.
The chapter on spells has cleric and wizard spells in it. What isn't on the wizard list- they don't get.
Cleric spells are still in the book though.
Can wizards learn heal? No. Why not? Because it isn't in their list. They have a specific list of spells and Heal is not on that list.
If it just said "wizards can learn X level spell at Y level and can use Z times per day" then they could, but they didn't do that. They specified the list of spells that they can learn from.
The Eidolon size modifications have lists attached that describe exactly what you get. If the lists aren't doing that they the lists are pointless, meaningless, and a waste of space on the page.
You have to assume that they took the time to make that list for a reason. That reason was to specify exactly what you get for taking that evolution.
-S
|
|
Thank you for finding the block for reach. Glad to know they put it in an obvious place.. (sarcasm!)
However.
Still, not convinced about Eidolons. They list specifically what you get. Reach isn't there. Therefore, its excluded.
If they had just said "Taking this evolution increases the size of the creature to Large with all accompanying benefits" and then the same with huge then i would agree. They did not however do that.
Instead, they said you become large /and then spelled out what you get/. for Huge, they then did the exact same thing.
Furthermore- there is a Reach evolution that you can choose to take.
When they list what you get, what is excluded from that list is excluded from what you get.
-S
]
The bestiary also does not spell out reach increase and does spell out the other benefits. I believe you are supposed to use the pre-existing rules rather than just assume a colossal creature has a 5' reach.
You don't have to assume though. They found the block in the Combat section of hte main book that lists it. (they being Kaisoku)
I was just looking for it in the wrong place.
It Should be in the bestiary, but it is in the main book instead.. rather hiding, actually.
-S
Thank you for finding the block for reach. Glad to know they put it in an obvious place.. (sarcasm!)
Well, it's in the Combat section rules about space and reach. It's obvious unless you don't read the combat section (which most of us probably didn't since we've been playing this version of the rules for nearly a decade).
Furthermore- there is a Reach evolution that you can choose to take.
This has absolutely no bearing on the situation. If it increased reach for your character in total, then I'd be more inclined to believe that they split up the reach as a separate evolution to manage the cost involved with gaining size.
However, this entry is cleared designed for using a single natural weapon longer than normal. This is exactly like the Dragon's bite attack... basically the neck is longer so it gives added reach.
Note that in the Dragon section, it says 5' longer (except for Colossal, which matches the chart exactly).
If they had just said "Taking this evolution increases the size of the creature to Large with all accompanying benefits" and then the same with huge then i would agree. They did not however do that.
Instead, they said you become large /and then spelled out what you get/. for Huge, they then did the exact same thing.
.
When they list what you get, what is excluded from that list is excluded from what you get.
-S
And my stance is that there is no text saying that we must ignore things not specifically spelled out in the text, so we use the Combat rules.
Honestly, the text for Large/Huge is already very long. I could understand why they didn't list something that would take up a large portion of text in an already large paragraph (since they'd have to detail long vs tall vs large vs huge).
If they simply put (as you say) a line saying "They get reach appropriate to their new size and shape", it would definitely remove any need for interpretation.
Ultimately, I feel that if you have two interpretations for a rule, and one results in a ridiculous situation (a Huge creature with 5' reach), then you go with a valid interpretation that doesn't result in the silly situation.
.
I understand that I probably won't change anyone's minds about this. However, I would like to know the reason driving the opposing interpretation. Is it because you feel this is the strictest reading of the rule?
Or is it to limit the power gained from the evolution?
If it's a matter of whether or not Large/Huge is "too good" with reach (or even without) for the cost involved, I can see further discussion on that avenue.
It was changed from 3 for Large, 7 for Huge, to now 4 for Large and 8 for Huge. The levels you can get these options haven't really changed.
An equivalent magic item that did this (Animal Growth gives the exact bonuses for an animal cohort), would cost in the order of 180,000gp (5th lvl spell, 9th lvl caster, x2000 for continuous, x2 for 1min duration spell).
That's a chunk of change. Applying it in the "worst case scenario" comparison (Druid's wolf can be Large by 7th, cl on this item is 9th, so the levels are getting close to when the summoner gets Huge permanently), it's like giving a character a 180,000gp item on his class ability at 11th level.
Considering at 11th level, that only half of his 15 evolution points... I think it might still be too good.
Granted, there's times where Huge might be inconvenient, and you can always take a magic item off to circumvent some of those issues. I'd still say that Huge Eidolons might be a bit much for only 4 more points.
Even Large is a bit much for only 4, but it's a bit more manageable (and Enlarge Person as a magic item isn't too expensive, so the game is probably ready to handle that).
.
In my own game where we are using a modified Eidolon creature, I've given the option of when making a Small base form, they get 4 extra evolution points to spend on skill, sense, or limb/movement (fly, swim, burrow, etc) evolutions.
Small gets very little in exchange for what it loses, and Large gains a lot for spending 4 points. I felt reversing the cost and giving 4 points was appropriate.
I believe reach is assumed to be just as much an intrinsic part of size as space is. By the logic in this thread, there's nothing specifically stated in the evolution that says Large/Huge Eidolons take up more than 5 ft of space either. Space and reach are both mentioned in the same part of the combat section.
By default, one should assume the rule, not the exception.
I'm using common sense.
If the list isn't a list of what you get then its absolutely meaningless. Absolutely. Waste of space, waste of ink.
The chapter on spells has cleric and wizard spells in it. What isn't on the wizard list- they don't get.
Cleric spells are still in the book though.Can wizards learn heal? No. Why not? Because it isn't in their list. They have a specific list of spells and Heal is not on that list.
If it just said "wizards can learn X level spell at Y level and can use Z times per day" then they could, but they didn't do that. They specified the list of spells that they can learn from.
The Eidolon size modifications have lists attached that describe exactly what you get. If the lists aren't doing that they the lists are pointless, meaningless, and a waste of space on the page.
You have to assume that they took the time to make that list for a reason. That reason was to specify exactly what you get for taking that evolution.
-S
The difference here is that a spell entry specifies who can cast it. Whereas the Combat section says "all things smaller than small and larger than medium use these rules.. and any that don't are being a-typical".
We are talking about a general rule versus a specific one, and there is no specific rule saying to ignore the general rule for Eidolons.
I believe reach is assumed to be just as much an intrinsic part of size as space is. By the logic in this thread, there's nothing specifically stated in the evolution that says Large/Huge Eidolons take up more than 5 ft of space either. Space and reach are both mentioned in the same part of the combat section.
By default, one should assume the rule, not the exception.
Good point.
I'm imagining a 5' cube of meat and muscle, with Strength in the 30s, calling itself "Huge". :)