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I'm not sure if everyone noticed this or not but the Summoner's spell list is changed significantly. Several of the really good early entry spells have been moved back including:
So summoner players are going to have to rebuild their spell lists.
This is a pretty significant hit to the summoners overall casting. Considering the SLA got bumped back up to 1 minute per level (1 at a time though) I think the spell list nerf is pretty reasonable.
My wife is NOT going to be happy that her summoner is losing Black Tentacles and getting Haste fewer times but from what I've seen with our playtest it's a good change, her summoner was seriously tearing things up.
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Here's the complete list, as best as I can tell:
Cantrips
No changes.
1st Level Spells
No changes.
2nd Level Spells
Removed: haste, slow
3rd Level Spells
Removed: black tentacles, dimension door, mass enlarge person, greater invisibility, mass reduce person
Added: haste, sleet storm, slow, stinking cloud
Reduced: summon monster IV -> summon monster III
4th Level Spells
Removed: baleful polymorph, hold monster, insect plague, teleport, wall of stone
Added: black tentacles, dimension door, mass enlarge person, greater invisibility, mass reduce person, solid fog
Reduced: summon monster V -> summon monster IV
5th Level Spells
Removed: banishment, creeping doom, greater dispel magic, ethereal jaunt, mass invisibility, sequester, simulacrum, spell turning, greater teleport, wall of iron
Added: baleful polymorph, break enchantment, cloudkill, hold monster, insect plague, polymorph, prying eyes, teleport, wall of stone
Reduced: summon monster VII -> summon monster V
6th Level Spells
Removed: antipathy, binding, mass charm monster, discern location, dominate monster, incendiary cloud, maze, protection from spells, sympathy, teleportation circle
Added: acid fog, banishment, creeping doom, greater dispel magic, instant summons, mass invisibility, simulacrum, spell turning, greater teleport, wall of iron
Reduced: summon monster IX -> summon monster VI
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That's a total loss of all the 6th level "removed" spells, as well as sequester and ethereal jaunt. In return, they gain the "fog/cloud" spells (stinking cloud and solid fog and their derivatives), sleet storm, instant summons, and prying eyes. That's a horribly bad trade considering how heavily the "cloud" spells got nerfed. Also of note is that the Summoner has delayed access (compared to a full caster) to every single spell on their list of 2nd level or higher. That breaks the unwritten rule of less-than-full casters (that spell level is reduced for key spells so that they gain them at a similar character level to the full casters).
I'm with Gorbacz.
The Summoner is about their Eidolon and Summons, not being a Sorceror with a nasty Familiar.
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I think it sucks - yes the summoner is about their eidolon first but they do also cast spells which sounds like another class I know hmmm maybe a druid which has a greater spell list with more offensive capability, wildshape & yes a powerful companion too
I dont see the balance here that was gained on the spell list - the nerf bat was increased to huge size hit die & wahacked way too many times
I think it sucks - yes the summoner is about their eidolon first but they do also cast spells which sounds like another class I know hmmm maybe a druid which has a greater spell list with more offensive capability, wildshape & yes a powerful companion too
I dont see the balance here that was gained on the spell list - the nerf bat was increased to huge size hit die & wahacked way too many times
That's exactly how I feel about this. Is the Eidolon really still that much more powerful than a druid's pet that the Summoner's spell list needed such a nerf? He already had weak spellcasting.
Eidolon > Druid's animal companion.
Unless you can point me to any animal companion that can have blindsight, fast healing, SR, DR 10/good and can fly.
Yes yes, I know the Eidolon is better. My question was whether or not the Eidolon was really so much better that the summoner's spellcasting had to be nerfed to bard levels? The max level Summon Monster either can cast from their spell list is Summon Monster VI, so they're roughly equal except that the bard has a little more variety and cure spells.
Edit: Now that I'm thinking about it, I guess bard level is about right for a summoner. Both classes can do two things at once. Bards can do their performance while attacking or casting, and summoners can do the same with with their pet. Honestly though, I think I would rather drop the summoner's BAB to wizard levels than have him lose spellcasting power.
I think it sucks - yes the summoner is about their eidolon first but they do also cast spells which sounds like another class I know hmmm maybe a druid which has a greater spell list with more offensive capability, wildshape & yes a powerful companion too
I dont see the balance here that was gained on the spell list - the nerf bat was increased to huge size hit die & wahacked way too many times
Druids are the sacred cows of Pathfinder it seems. Well, all D&D related material really.
Druids are the sacred cows of Pathfinder it seems. Well, all D&D related material really.
People just tend to compare new content to the 'core' content as a way of making sure it is balanced against that content. The druid just happens to be the class that is the most closely related to the summoner
Druids are the sacred cows of Pathfinder it seems. Well, all D&D related material really.People just tend to compare new content to the 'core' content as a way of making sure it is balanced against that content. The druid just happens to be the class that is the most closely related to the summoner
Yes, but that isn't all I was saying. When complaints arise about supposedly unbalanced classes, people point to the Druid - who, despite any nerfing by Paizo, is still a Druidic beast - and then other people oppose any changes to the Druid but support all nerf changes to the compared class. The Druid still gets full spell progression, an animal companion, decent BAB, and oh yeah, can turn into a bear. The point being the Druid is a sacred cow of D&D and D&D derived gaming.
Yes, but that isn't all I was saying. When complaints arise about supposedly unbalanced classes, people point to the Druid - who, despite any nerfing by Paizo, is still a Druidic beast - and then other people oppose any changes to the Druid but support all nerf changes to the compared class. The Druid still gets full spell progression, an animal companion, decent BAB, and oh yeah, can turn into a bear. The point being the Druid is a sacred cow of D&D and D&D derived gaming.
Ahh, I see your point now. And yea, I do believe the druid is a bit powerful, lol. Though, people here seem to be arguing that the Summoner has become a bit too nerfed when compared to the druid in this case instead of the other way around.
I think summoner probably needs further nerfing. The summoning spell-like abilities still have no somatic, verbal, or material components. That makes them the equivalent of spells more than 3 levels higher than their spell equivalents ("Super" Extend Spell 10x, Silent Spell, Still Spell). They progress as a wizard's progression does, and they're back to a standard action activation (so they're harder to interrupt). Plus, there's Quicken Spell-Like Ability and Empower Spell-Like Ability out of the Bestiary. . .
Whatever. I've never really been a fan of the "summoner" concept. It's a drag on gameplay to have many complex summons to deal with. I guess the people have spoken on this |:
I think summoner probably needs further nerfing. The summoning spell-like abilities still have no somatic, verbal, or material components. That makes them the equivalent of spells more than 3 levels higher than their spell equivalents ("Super" Extend Spell 10x, Silent Spell, Still Spell). They progress as a wizard's progression does, and they're back to a standard action activation (so they're harder to interrupt). Plus, there's Quicken Spell-Like Ability and Empower Spell-Like Ability out of the Bestiary. . .
So a Summoner has summoning Spell-like abilities without any components? Imagine that. Plus, he just got all his actual spells upped and Summon Spells on his caster list nerfed.
You know, there's a WotC class out there that does everything without VSM and concentration checks and everybody is fine with that. (Binder from ToM).
*Shrug* I've never played with the binder specifically, so I can't comment.
So a Summoner has summoning Spell-like abilities without any components? Imagine that.
Based on the playtest information that I have seen, the summoner was simply too good. This is a step in the right direction, but I still think balance compared to other casters is a bit lacking.
Based on the playtest information that I have seen, the summoner was simply too good. This is a step in the right direction, but I still think balance compared to other casters is a bit lacking.
Compared to the spellcasters who get 9th level spells? Plus bonuses now in Pathfinder? And this isn't even taking into account the Druid sacred cow.
The Summoner's abilities are all pretty much designed around hiding behind the Eidolon and secondarily throwing anything else at the opponent. Other classes get bonuses to buff up themselves, in addition to their full progression.
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Now, what's the problem with the Druid ? The wildshape nerf pretty much removed the thing that made Druidzilla leave other classes in dust.
I love how we have a full spectrum between "summoners were nerfed so hard that they are not worth playing compared to druids" and "it's a good nerf, but it's still too good" :)
Now, what's the problem with the Druid ? The wildshape nerf pretty much removed the thing that made Druidzilla leave other classes in dust.
I do believe "turn into a bear, cast spells, and attack with my bear companion" is still a valid ability for the Druid.
Druids lose alot of ability without the feat that lets them cast Wild Shaped - see NWN 2 and Dragon Age. But I do believe I still saw that feat in Pathfinder.I love how we have a full spectrum between "summoners were nerfed so hard that they are not worth playing compared to druids" and "it's a good nerf, but it's still too good" :)
There is still some tweaking that could be done on the Summoner, but it appears to me that most people's problem with the class is inherent in the class. You'd practically have to scrap the entire thing.
Eidolon > Druid's animal companion.
Unless you can point me to any animal companion that can have blindsight, fast healing, SR, DR 10/good and can fly.
Uh, you realize druids can cast spells that do all of that, right? So ANY animal companion can have all of that. There's also magic items that do similar things. Druid ACs also have attacks that Eidolons don't get, like Stun, and can fly at level one. They also have more HD and better saves.
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@Cartigan: Well, in PF the best you can get is +6 Str, -4 Dex and +6 nat arm bonus, while in 3.5 the example dire bear would see you turned into a Str 31 Con 19 monstrosity with 3 natural attacks. So yeah, no difference at all.
@ Zurai: Summoners can cast spells and use magic items too. And remember that DR 10/good is pretty much DR 10/-, unless the GM has a fondness for fallen angels and confused eladrins running around. Also, hawk ? Really ?
@ Zurai: Summoners can cast spells and use magic items too.
Not those spells, they can't.
And remember that DR 10/good is pretty much DR 10/-, unless the GM has a fondness for fallen angels and confused eladrins running around.
They probably do if they're running an evil campaign, which is the only way someone's going to get DR/good on an Eidolon. The alignment DRs have to be opposite one facet of the Summoner's alignment. That means to have /good, the Summoner must be Evil. Most games, including Pathfinder Society, prohibit Evil characters. Please stop acting like DR/good is going to be common.
Also, hawk ? Really ?
I was thinking "roc", actually.
@Cartigan: Well, in PF the best you can get is +6 Str, -4 Dex and +6 nat arm bonus, while in 3.5 the example dire bear would see you turned into a Str 31 Con 19 monstrosity with 3 natural attacks. So yeah, no difference at all.
That wasn't a real nerf even when they did it PHB2. Natural Casting is the truly unbalancing item.
@ Zurai: Summoners can cast spells and use magic items too. And remember that DR 10/good is pretty much DR 10/-, unless the GM has a fondness for fallen angels and confused eladrins running around. Also, hawk ? Really ?
Summoners have a more limited spell list.
Compared to the spellcasters who get 9th level spells?
Compared to the summoner with 16 casts of Silent, Stilled Summon Monster IX (3 + [Cha 20 + 5 ability + 5 tome + 6 enhancement])? Yes, it's one spell -- but it's still more 9th level spell output than any other class. Also, multiple casts stack.
The Summoner's abilities are all pretty much designed around hiding behind the Eidolon and secondarily throwing anything else at the opponent.
The eidolon ability doesn't concern me as much. It can be dealt with easily in specific circumstances. Spamming 9th level spells isn't easy to deal with.
Compared to the spellcasters who get 9th level spells?Compared to the summoner with 16 casts of Silent, Stilled Summon Monster IX (3 + [Cha 20 + 5 ability + 5 tome + 6 enhancement])? Yes, it's one spell -- but it's still more 9th level spell output than any other class. Also, multiple casts stack.
The summon monster spells SUCK for combat use. They're mostly meat shields and that's it. The Summoner actually has enough duration to use some of the more interesting ones for utility use, which is unique, but it hardly replaces limited wish or most other 7th+ level arcane spells. At 17th level, you can summon a single Astral Deva. Astral Devas are CR 14, 15 HD outsiders. At that level, you're fighting CR 19+ foes. Like, say, a Shoggoth. The Shoggoth has a 50% chance to hit the angel with its automatic free action 60' radius confuse-and-wisdom-drain attack and can EASILY engulf it (as well as everything else in range). Once the deva is engulfed, it's screwed; it has no light or natural slashing weapon and no spells it can use to cut its way out except blade barrier, which would hurt it as well.
And it's not like the Summoner is the only character to get spell-like abilities. Whining about how they're silent/stilled is just that -- whining. It's got almost zero actual game effect. I cannot recall the last time any spellcaster I played was silenced, deafened, or paralyzed.
I like the change. The summoner was a viable class on its own. Add in the Eidolon and you were basically controlling two characters at the same time. The spell level shift also removes potential problems with cheap wands and potions.
Came in here to post that haste at 4th level was broken.
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Looking at it now I see the spell nerfs as the price for getting standard action/ minute per level summons. Now it is amazing at summoning but really weak elsewhere. I understand Jason did this based on a large amount of feedback demanding it but ultimately it makes the class a little too focused and a little less interesting.
I like the change. The summoner was a viable class on its own.
No, it wasn't. It was worse than a Druid or Cleric in every single way. 100%, flat worse. In not a single way was it better or even equal.
The spell level shift also removes potential problems with cheap wands and potions.
Also not true. Every other less-than-full spellcasting class still has "advanced" access to spells, so there's still the exact same issue.
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The summon monster spells SUCK for combat use. They're mostly meat shields and that's it.
I always forget that you play almost the exact opposite set of levels that I do. At the low-mid levels the summon monster X spells are pretty decent in combat. They aren't dishing out damage like fighters but they are tough enough they can't be ignored and they can be used as battlefield control which is a big win.
Yeah, I should modify that to "summon monster sucks for non-meatshield use after level 4 or so". The first couple levels it's decent for actually killing things, mainly because the CR gap isn't so big. SM3 is also where you get the first monsters with DR, IIRC, which is where the switchover to meat shield starts.
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Also not true. Every other less-than-full spellcasting class still has "advanced" access to spells, so there's still the exact same issue.
Wand of Tongues made by a Bard:3,000gp Made by a Wizard:5,325gp
My math may be off, but the wizards Wand of Tongues cost over 2,000 more gold than a bards. I thought an example would be useful.
I like the change. The summoner was a viable class on its own.No, it wasn't. It was worse than a Druid or Cleric in every single way. 100%, flat worse. In not a single way was it better or even equal.
But about equal to a bard or monk. The summoner spell list makes it a great buffer and crowd controller. As awesome as a full cast? NO, but few classes are.
The spell level shift also removes potential problems with cheap wands and potions.Also not true. Every other less-than-full spellcasting class still has "advanced" access to spells, so there's still the exact same issue.
Casting Lesser Restoration a few levels early isn't going to break the game. Spells like Haste and Fly are much more likely to do so.
But about equal to a bard or monk.
Not true. Bards actually get class features (a Summoner's only non-Eidolon class feature is the SLA), plus they can use shields and some martial weapons and have an extra good save. EDIT: Oh, and a better spell list, with spells that are achieved at levels that are about equal with the levels Sorcerers and Wizards get them.
Everyone is better than a monk, so comparing them to monks is silly. Monks are a broken class.
Casting Lesser Restoration a few levels early isn't going to break the game. Spells like Haste and Fly are much more likely to do so.
It hardly breaks the game to get haste at 4th level instead of 5th, and Summoners never had 2nd level access to fly. BTW, Druids have first level access to flight.
Compared to the spellcasters who get 9th level spells?Compared to the summoner with 16 casts of Silent, Stilled Summon Monster IX (3 + [Cha 20 + 5 ability + 5 tome + 6 enhancement])?
Stilled? Pointless. Silent? Pointless. Eschewed? Pointless.
Yes, it's one spell -- but it's still more 9th level spell output than any other class. Also, multiple casts stack.
So they get to cast Summon Monster IX at the same level that everyone else gets access to it as a SLA? Real broken, that.
I'm sure the Wizard with Wish, Timestop, Dominate Monster, Shapechange, Dragon Form III, Maze, Limited Wish, Imprisonment, and Mage's Disjunction (For a sampling) is very scared of your ability to create 8 Astral Devas 1 at a time.Not to mention the Druid turned into a Huge Earth Elemental casting Summon Nature's Ally IX, Antipathy, Shambler, Changestaff, Earthquake, Finger of Death, etc and having its Velociraptor attack you.
The eidolon ability doesn't concern me as much. It can be dealt with easily in specific circumstances. Spamming 9th level spells isn't easy to deal with.
Really? You can't handle some one being able to create 1 creature off the Summon Monster IX list at a time?
The summon monster spells SUCK for combat use. They're mostly meat shields and that's it. The Summoner actually has enough duration to use some of the more interesting ones for utility use, which is unique, but it hardly replaces limited wish or most other 7th+ level arcane spells.
Just because they suck to you doesn't mean they suck to everyone. They're available at every spell level. And if you're smart about stacking buffs and group comp, they're powerful. ESPECIALLY if you don't have to deal with the painful 1 full round cast time.
And it's not like the Summoner is the only character to get spell-like abilities. Whining about how they're silent/stilled is just that -- whining. It's got almost zero actual game effect. I cannot recall the last time any spellcaster I played was silenced, deafened, or paralyzed.
They're the first class to get a significant offensive times/day ability tied to their primary spellcasting stat.
Ok, simple example: invisibility spell. Normally, when casting a spell while invisible, any creature automatically hears the verbal components. The DC to pinpoint their square with a perception check is 20 -- the DC to determine general direction is 0. That's great; I can glitterdust or fireball an area where I think a caster is.
The DC to find a caster casting silent SM is a bit harder. I'll leave it as an exercise to see how difficult it is.
Now, you can use see invisibility to counter invisibility. No question there. But how do you know that there's a summoner present in the first place? Otherwise, it looks like creatures are just popping up all over (or from random locations, depending on terrain). There's also no efficient way for non-casters to deal with invisibility until later levels.
Silent Summon Monster III was a good 4th level spell slot at level 7. It created an effective opponent that had to be dealt with at the level -- but did so in a way that greatly accelerated battle tempo to the caster's advantage. This same spell is available at level 5 as a standard action. . . and EVERY CAST is that -- and I can easily have 9 of those by level 5.
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It hardly breaks the game to get haste at 4th level instead of 5th, and Summoners never had 2nd level access to fly. BTW, Druids have first level access to flight.
I agree, most of the early entry spells on the summoner list simply meant the summoner got the spell at the same character level as the wizard. For example summoners got black tentacles at the same character level as the wizard even though it was a third level spell. Getting haste at 4th level was nice but I'm not sure how it's broken to get it one level sooner (and all the level dependent variables tame it down a good bit).
Crafting magic items goes, I'm not sure there is a simple answer to that.
Silent Summon Monster III was a good 4th level spell slot at level 7. It created an effective opponent that had to be dealt with at the level -- but did so in a way that greatly accelerated battle tempo to the caster's...
Everyone who has ever used a Silent or Stilled spell in combat, please raise your hand.
Silent Summon Monster III was a good 4th level spell slot at level 7. It created an effective opponent that had to be dealt with at the level
Uh, no. Just no. You're summoning a single CR 2 creature with 3d8+x hit points at most to fight a CR 9 creature. It's going to get curbstomped. It probably won't even last a single full-attack sequence. It's an exceptionally poor use of a 4th level spell slot. A much better use of that spell slot would be, say, black tentacles, phantasmal killer, or enervation. Black tentacles wouldn't even break your invisibility if you cast it as an area-denial spell rather than directly on top of an enemy.
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Everyone who has ever used a Silent or Stilled spell in combat, please raise your hand.
Silent Summon Monster III was a good 4th level spell slot at level 7. It created an effective opponent that had to be dealt with at the level -- but did so in a way that greatly accelerated battle tempo to the caster's...
A silent stilled wall of force keep the wizard from just walking away.
A silent stilled wall of force keep the wizard from just walking away.Everyone who has ever used a Silent or Stilled spell in combat, please raise your hand.
Silent Summon Monster III was a good 4th level spell slot at level 7. It created an effective opponent that had to be dealt with at the level -- but did so in a way that greatly accelerated battle tempo to the caster's...
This sounds kind of like not in combat.
Silent Summon Monster III was a good 4th level spell slot at level 7. It created an effective opponent that had to be dealt with at the levelUh, no. Just no.
You're not thinking of the level and tempo of combat.
Everyone who has ever used a Silent or Stilled spell in combat, please raise your hand.
Just because you haven't used it doesn't mean it's not a good idea (:
And I HAVE used both silent and still in-game, mostly to cast stealthly and confuse the enemy.
In combat was my point.
Silent Summon Monster III was a good 4th level spell slot at level 7. It created an effective opponent that had to be dealt with at the levelUh, no. Just no.You're not thinking of the level and tempo of combat.
You're right, I'm not thinking of bleeblety bloo and jasty froo of combat.
Can you please use actual examples or definitions so I have the faintest clue what you're talking about? "Level and tempo of combat" is a meaningless phrase in normal parlance, so you have to actual tell us what you mean.
Especially if it takes the time to actually attack one. That's an attack or two that did not hit the fighter/rogue/monk.
Yes, thank you for reinforcing my point, that they're only useful as meat shields.