This is a lifeboat thread from this thread, which got bogged down in edition war nonsense. It was bound to happen, since the thread title WAS flamebait, so this thread will not be calling out Pathfinder or 4e specifically. Instead let's compare all game systems.
Let's continue the discussion, but with one rule: leave your system preferences at the door, and either report observations or discuss the reports that have been made.
Thank You for creating this thread.
In today's tight enconomy, a broader look at how people are choosing to spend all to limited "gaming budgets" may be more informative then simply compairing two systems.
I do notice that my own local gaing store "Pair A Dice" in North Vista California, has a large selection of nWoD material, a good selection, of 4th Edition D&D material, a scattering of other game material, but almost no Pathfinder.
They are very good about store maintanence so it is hard to see beyond that how well the products are moving (no dust to speak of). For obvious reasons, they are not going to go into it with a customer, so I can't get you much more information beyond that.
Are the accounting records for the various major game systems available online?This is a lifeboat thread from this thread, which got bogged down in edition war nonsense. It was bound to happen, since the thread title WAS flamebait, so this thread will not be calling out Pathfinder or 4e specifically. Instead let's compare all game systems.
Let's continue the discussion, but with one rule: leave your system preferences at the door, and either report observations or discuss the reports that have been made.
Sadly, no. For obvious business reasons (namely driving down sales of any game that is not the market leader), that information would not be generally made to the public.
There was another thread like this a few months back and the general consensus, including input from Paizo people, was that the publishing industry is very private with sales numbers. Even getting publishers to reveal print runs for massive best sellers like the Harry Potter books is a miracle.
Creative Director
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Most industries are very protective of their actual sales numbers, for a LOT of very good reasons. WotC, for example, is a public company, and as a result I believe it's actually illegal for them to share their sales figures publicly.
Paizo is NOT a public company, but we still don't openly share our sales figures. Partially because, without context, those numbers wouldn't make sense. If EVERYONE were open and public with their numbers, then there WOULD be context and it might make more sense to follow such a practice.
But that's just not the way business works in America.
I can say this: I am INCREDIBLY happy with the way Paizo products are selling. The increased success has allowed us to hire several new people, move to a bigger office, increase the number of products we're doing, reward our employees for their good work, and to do some other fun stuff.
Thank You for creating this thread.
In today's tight enconomy, a broader look at how people are choosing to spend all to limited "gaming budgets" may be more informative then simply compairing two systems.
I do notice that my own local gaing store "Pair A Dice" in North Vista California, has a large selection of nWoD material, a good selection, of 4th Edition D&D material, a scattering of other game material, but almost no Pathfinder.
They are very good about store maintanence so it is hard to see beyond that how well the products are moving (no dust to speak of). For obvious reasons, they are not going to go into it with a customer, so I can't get you much more information beyond that.
Interesting stuff. When I went to Game Towne which is in Old Town, San Diego, I saw much the same thing. Lots of 4e stuff, along with other game systems, and almost no Pathfinder. The only PFRPG core book i saw was the last one they had, which i snatched. I asked the game store guy there who I hadn't seen in a while about it and he said he plays 4e now, but he did know about Pathfinder and 4e both. Pretty knowledgeable guy. I can always order stuff from him if the store is out of stock, so it doesn't worry me
BTW that Pair of Dice store must be new, I hadn't seen it before. It's right down the street from my in laws house, he he. I will have to check it out.
I've seen Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader being heavily publicized in my local Barnes & Nobles's. They receive a much more prominent display than either D&D 4E or Pathfinder (which is completely absent at my B&N's here in Inddianapolis).
Other game systems -- Conan, Serenity, Star Wars, Shadowrun -- are also doing fantastic in B&N. I've only seen PFRPG in the one specialty RPG shop in town, though. I'd love to see PF more in my B&N's.
Dark Heresy, the latest edition of Shadowrun, and 4e receives the majority of the shelf space in the B&Ns out here in Columbus. Once in awhile I'll see a single PF core book or Bestiary, but that's about it. I'd have to go by a LGS or two if I want to look for anything beyond the hardcovers.
I kind of made a jump as well (Numbers for a FLGS), but observations as a store owner:
- Lots of call for 3.5 materials, whatever I can get my hands on
- 1, MAYBE 2, copies of 4e material as it releases. One copy goes to a local, self-proclaimed "setting whore", so he's mostly grabbing the setting materials, though he likes the 4e system as well.
- Regularly order Pathfinder for players, supplier just began stocking PF within the last month so now I can order it wholesale and make something instead of just facilitating a sale for Paizo.com/Trollandtoad.com. That said, given my own enjoyment of PF, I had no problem supporting the system even if it meant giving the actual sale to someone else. Also managing to sell older gamers on it, what with the local interest in 3.5 and a dearth of supplies.
- No White Wolf locally. That ship sailed about ten years ago I think to the point I referenced it this past weekend at my Worldwake prerelease and the guys didn't get the reference. I can get it, just no one seems to want it...
- Small press does alright locally, with my own titles selling the occasional copy, I stocked a few copies of Ron Edward's "Elfs", Inspecters is on the shelf now, and will generally support whatever I can get my hands on. Do have one family, tourists, who for the last two years stopped each summer to see if I stocked Traveler at all. To date, no, I do not.
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Here's a different perspective: 4e products in stores from 3PP.
Last year, I saw the main chains out here in SoCal (Borders and B&N) had one to two copies of Goodman Games Dungeon Denizens HC for DnD. Saw less copies of Monstercology: Orcs. All took a while to sell. (I usually tour the stores once a week.) No other 3PP 4e products.
The three FLGSs I frequent stock 3PP for DnD but usually 1-2 copies and, especially, via special order from customers. Only ones I saw were from Goodman Games and Mongoose. Many still languish in said stores.
Pathfinder products from 3PP in stores? So far a couple of copies of Tome of Secrets in one FLGS. I didn't buy any based on reviews.
I was just out tonight and hopped into a local Borders for a couple minutes. One full shelf of 4e, plus an end-of-aisle display, and roughly another full shelf for all other tabletop RPG products. There were two copies of the PFRPG core rulebook, and two copies of the PFRPG bestiary.
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I reported on my 3-4 local FLGS's in this thread on EN World.
I visited a couple again this weekend. Two that didn't carry ANY Paizo products now had the PF RPG, Bestiary, GM Screen, and a sampling of other books. Both places cited the same thing: 4e sales were slowing and people had started specifically asking for Pathfinder products so they started ordering and keeping them in stock.
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Dark Heresy, the latest edition of Shadowrun, and 4e receives the majority of the shelf space in the B&Ns out here in Columbus. Once in awhile I'll see a single PF core book or Bestiary, but that's about it. I'd have to go by a LGS or two if I want to look for anything beyond the hardcovers.
Interesting, now that you mention it, I realize that I never have problems finding Shadowrun material. Generally, it's given the same amount of "presence" as the D&D 4E in all the stores I've been in, even ahead of World of Darkness material.
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I have a bi-weekly talk with the owner of my FLGS, a tradition of sorts we've developed during the years.
Let me stress that it's quite a specific situation, that may be hard to relate to most others described here - it's a relatively small town in the European market (Italy).
Boardgames such as Descent, Arham Horror and the likes are going strong and gaining popularity. Also, non-collectible card games are developing a good pull among gamers.
Skirmish/wargames products (WHFB/WH40k, Confrontation, Warmachine/Hordes, etc) are suffering, but still have a rather large following of dedicated players.
CCG (Magic, WoW, Yu-Gi-O) are seemingly unaffected by major fluctuations in the market.
Collectible miniatures games (DDM, SWM, HeroClix) have always been a small niche in the market, and they're not-so-slowly dying, mostly for the proportionately scarce support received from producers and lack of innovations other than packaging solutions.
Among RPGs, the WoD products have suffered a major blow with the new editions. At first the new books sold well, but recently only the most hardcore fans keep on following them.
4E is in a similar situation, since some months (spring/summer). It seems that people are somewhat disgruntled by the lack of support in settings and frequent churning of splatbooks, following the same trend shown during the 3.X days.
Also, there's a growing number of gamers which show a kind of long-term disaffection/tiredness with the system and come back to d20 products (Conan and LotR, mostly).
3PP products are a mixed lot. Unfortunately most of them are in english, and a lot of gamers prefer their handbooks translated.
So, a number of them seem destined to sit on the shelves forever, and the store owner is very cautious in orders, often skipping good products for fear of a lack of interest in them.
However, those books which are specifically ordered by customers quite often become very popular, thanks to the old word of mouth mechanism.
Other game systems sell mostly depending on the availability of translations.
WHFRP 2e has a rather large group of fans. The new edition, despite the high cost of the starter boxed set, is selling well too, even if it's not tranlated.
Call of Cthulhu, Shadowrun and a number of indie RPG games sell only to a small number of customers, while the majority is not interested in them.
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I went to the other gaming shop in town this weekend. (well its not really a gaming shop, but rather a hole in the wall that sells a smattering of different things aimed at the science fiction/fantasy crowd). I have not visited he store in over a decade. It never has anyone in it and I often wondered if it was just some money laundering front because it did not ever seem to do any business. They had a miserable selection of RPGs. only about 20-25 books in total. But I did notice that 4 of them were Pathfinder.
The other cool thing that they had was a mint copy of the Paladium TMNT, and a sealed box of Return to Undermountain both reduced to 5 bucks ea. I did not get a chance to talk to the shopkeeper about PF. She seemed to be more interested in whatever was on her Tv in her office. She did not even see me come in and I probably could have walked out with the books and she would not have noticed. But I eventually got her up to the counter so I could releive the store of its Undermountain box and its pristine copy of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (my own copy has been through its paces and the cover has actually started to divide with the thin lair of protective coating separating from the paper cover.)
Best 10 bucks I have spent this year. I am glad the other thread started. it peaked my interest and I ended up dropping into this store as a result.
love,
malkav
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The only local game store in my area is The Days of Knights in Newark, Delaware. The last few times that I have been in there I have seen 4E on display on a stand-alone shelf near the front of the store with several copies of most of the 4E books as far as I know. I am not judging here but I am usually more interested in the Pathfinder stuff so I usually take particular notice of that and I will say that DoKs has a great selection of Pathfinder and Paizo merchandise.
They had several of each of the following; The Core Rulebook, Beastiary, all the install of the adventure paths from RotRLs forward, most of the Modules, a good selection of the Gamemastery flip-mats(maybe 6-8 different ones), a variety of Gamemastery mini sets and some other minor stuff that escapes memory. All of this was on a wall that has in the past been dedicated to only 3.5 D&D and 3rdPPs. Now it is mostly 4E and Paizo/Pathfinder with a decent amount of 3rdPPs in between them. Oh, and they also keep a good supply of other Gamemastery stuff like the Harrow decks, item cards and that stuff.
Overall I get the impression from the owner and employees that PRPG is doing well while 4e is starting to be temperamental in it's sales, meaning when a new release comes out they sell most of their ordering but then it peters out instead of a steady flow like they imply they are getting out of Pathfinder.
Anyway that's what I've seen.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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[threadjack sort of]I was in the Chapters in Ottawa over the weekend. They had a small selection of 4e stuff. While I was perusing, a 60+ year old man came over and asked me if they had any WoW stuff. I thought he meant the tabletop game. He was fascinated to learn that people could sit down around a table and play games like this using dice. I was surprised to learn that a senior spends over five hours a day playing a Night Elf.[/threadjack sort of]
[threadjack sort of]
Yes?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Guardtower has a good collection of most products.
4e is right by the counter, further down the aisle are the Pathfinder and other OGL products
WoD is on its own row. then SW Saga, then other sci-fi types. I think Shadowrun is there.
Battletech is stuck in the back. :-( I do know there is a group that plays there though. I think Megamek helps keep Battletech alive.
Not sure how their sales are doing though. I pick up minis there (and Battletech stuff) anymore.
I did just get an e-mail that the Catalyst commandos are going to be running a Shadowrun game at the Armoury. I just don't play SR myself.
Guardtower has a good collection of most products.
Not sure how their sales are doing though. I pick up minis there (and Battletech stuff) anymore.
I did just get an e-mail that the Catalyst commandos are going to be running a Shadowrun game at the Armoury. I just don't play SR myself.
I know the Armoury doesn't (at least last I checked since it's much closer to where I live), but does GT sell loose minis? Only place I do know around here that does is the Soldiery (did I get the name right?) off of High behind the Laughing Ogre.
Since everyone's reporting on their local B&N or Borders I guess I'll report as well.
We've got a Borders here, and it has two tall bookshelves filled with "Games" stuff, mostly poker and other card game books or video game cheat books. The three shelves that have actual RPG stuff on it is mostly 4th edition with a limited selection of Dark Heresy and nWoD stuff, and one copy each of the Pathfinder core rulebook and bestiary. Unlike everyone else's Borders/B&N reports though, there's not one lick of Shadowrun stuff.
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Cant really comment on a FLGS as I dont have one within a sensible distance from where I live on the South Coast of England but ive just got back from a con, Conception XI which had a number of traders from around the country.
Upon speaking to one particular trader he said that he had brought 6 pathfinder core rules with him that had sold very quickly, and another trader had also sold out of the pathfinder core rules that they had bought with them. Neither had sold and 4e PHBs. There were however a number of 4e PHBS which were on the bring and buy the majority of which sold.
On another note however LFR was well subscribed to whilst Pathfinder Society appeared to be virtually non existant. However on the last day we discovered that it wasn't non existant just poorly organised compared to living forgotten realms.
If it means anthing my group played a lot of Pathfinder, some runequest and Boot Hill.
I get my stuff all mail order from Paizo which costs in shipping to the UK but its still probably cheaper than petrol costs etc to get to shops. And as some pure anecdotal stuff my local group plays mainly Pathfinder with a bit of traveller and Runequest throne in. Only 2 members of about 8 are interested in 4e and purchase the books, whilst 4 players including me purchase pathfinder and the rest arent really bothered as long as there is a game on.
make from that what you will
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I know the Armoury doesn't (at least last I checked since it's much closer to where I live), but does GT sell loose minis? Only place I do know around here that does is the Soldiery (did I get the name right?) off of High behind the Laughing Ogre.Guardtower has a good collection of most products.
Not sure how their sales are doing though. I pick up minis there (and Battletech stuff) anymore.
I did just get an e-mail that the Catalyst commandos are going to be running a Shadowrun game at the Armoury. I just don't play SR myself.
Soldiery used to. Got some nice BT infantry there. I think they still do.
Last time I went in was ready to purchase "Requium for a God" but the guy was on the phone for 10 minutes talking about a furry website. I got fed up and left.
Soldiery used to. Got some nice BT infantry there. I think they still do.
Last time I went in was ready to purchase "Requium for a God" but the guy was on the phone for 10 minutes talking about a furry website. I got fed up and left.
Yeah, his customer service skills leave a lot to be desired. And he's got a LOT of OOP stuff and they just sit there year after year after year as if he thinks he's going to get full price for them. *shrug*
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I was just out tonight and hopped into a local Borders for a couple minutes. One full shelf of 4e, plus an end-of-aisle display, and roughly another full shelf for all other tabletop RPG products. There were two copies of the PFRPG core rulebook, and two copies of the PFRPG bestiary.
I've seen a copy or two of the HC Campaign guide. The Paizo staff pegged it right: unless you're a "name" product, booksellers are not interested in purchasing and displaying most softcover rpgs.
I reported on my 3-4 local FLGS's in this thread on EN World.
I visited a couple again this weekend. Two that didn't carry ANY Paizo products now had the PF RPG, Bestiary, GM Screen, and a sampling of other books. Both places cited the same thing: 4e sales were slowing and people had started specifically asking for Pathfinder products so they started ordering and keeping them in stock.
Jeff,
There's a new game store on Rt 33 (closer than Gamer's Realm). And they carry Paizo product regularly. (But the majority of their shelf space goes to 4E.) I am not sure, but I think they carry more Goodman adventures (both 3E and 4E) than they do PFRPG material.
EDIT. Oh yea, Almost for the website. http://familyfunhobbies.com/
In my local used-comic-book-store, located as far from Seattle as anyone can come, D&D does not seem to move at all, even at 75% off for the 3e stuff, and Pathfinder is considered too obscure to consider. That is a bit odd actually, a girl working there every now and then seemed very enthusiastic about it, so the distrubutor may be the problem.
The other rpgs, also at 75% off, does not to move at all.
They seem to sell some GW and Magic products (as opposed to just have them in the store), and have a very good selection of new comics, sci-fi and fantasy books, in addition to toys and used books.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I was just out tonight and hopped into a local Borders for a couple minutes. One full shelf of 4e, plus an end-of-aisle display, and roughly another full shelf for all other tabletop RPG products. There were two copies of the PFRPG core rulebook, and two copies of the PFRPG bestiary.I've seen a copy or two of the HC Campaign guide. The Paizo staff pegged it right: unless you're a "name" product, booksellers are not interested in purchasing and displaying most softcover rpgs.
It's not really about product format—it's more about a company's product mix. In order to be picked up by most book chains, a publisher needs to have a distributor that sells to the book trade; publishers without a decent back catalog and a fairly regular release schedule are going to to have difficulty convincing a book trade distributor that they're worth the effort.
That said, once you have book distribution, they do care about format. They like hardcovers, but they'll pick up some softcovers, so long as they're at least thick enough to have printed spines.
Vic: "They like hardcovers, but they'll pick up some softcovers, so long as they're at least thick enough to have printed spines."
Do you know why? I would've thought that the lighter softcover books would be cheaper to ship.
the only reason I can come up with, is that you can read titles on hardcovers when they're put on a shelf..?
GRU