| shroudb |
first question:
rake allows the eidolon 2 attacks on a successful grapple check.
if the eidolon has greater and rapid grappler, does this means that on each round (after establishing grappling) it can do 3* it's rake attacks?
it seems broken seeing that each pair of rake attacks is only considered a single attacks for maximum number of attacks limitations, meaning that it can possibly get at level 11 (against a medium (or large if enlarged) creature, or even huge if wearing +1titanic bracers of armor and even garagntuan if greater surged to become huge):
grapple(damage):1 bite (grab), if sucessfull another 8 rakes as a move
grapple(damage):1 bite (grab), if sucessfull another 8 rakes as a swift
grapple(damage):1 bite (grab), if sucessfull another 8 rakes as a standard
for a total of 27 attacks each doing:
2d6+9 +amulet bonus * 24
1d8+9 +amulet bonus * 3
with an attack roll of +19 +amulet and a cmb on the grapple = 11 +4 (grab) +9 (str) + 4 (grater grapple) + 1 large = 29 and 34 while maintaining
with a +3 amulet that is:
cmb +34 check for 16.5 damage
8 attacks with + 22 bonus (average ac for that level should be around 26 right?) for maximum average damage of 152
so 168.5 * 3 = 505.5 maximum average damage (not that hard) at lvl 11
all this is without being enlarged, or other shenanigans
that is for a "spider like" quadraple form eidolon with:
evolutions:
pounce(1)
legs *2 (4)
rake * 4 (8)
large (4)
improved damage claws (1)
(18 points, 15 base +3 from feats, it could have even more (2/5 more) if half-elf or half elf wild caller)
feats:
improved unarmed strike (1)
improved grapple (3)
improved natural attack (6)
greater grapple (9)
rapid grappler (11)
------------------------------
2nd question:
rake in universal monster rules says that you can only rake if you start the round with a grappled opponent.
BUT rake in eidolon says "The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target."
AND specific tramples general rules:
given that it's pretty easy for eidolons to get multiple grab attacks/round (p.e. evolutions claws+bite+grab(bite)+grab(claws)+rake+punce can be all by taken by level 4) this opens up opportunities for shenanigans like:
pounce: take 2 rake attacks first->bite->free action grapple->2 free rakes->releash grapple (free)->claw->free action grapple->2 free rakes->releash grapple (free)->claw->free action grapple->2 free rakes
for a total of 1 bite, 2 claws and 8 rakes at level 4... (i obviously house rule against that, but it would be nice if i had missed something that makes my ruling official)
| Reecy |
Ok
here is the Clarifications you asked for
Rake
A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature's description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
You can not rake unless they stay grappled
The ability you are thinking of is Rend
Rend
If it hits with two or more natural attacks in 1 round, a creature with the rend special attack can cause tremendous damage by latching onto the opponent's body and tearing flesh. This attack deals an additional amount of damage, but no more than once per round. The type of attacks that must hit and the additional damage are included in the creature's description. The additional damage is usually equal to the damage caused by one of the attacks plus 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus.
But it will only ever allow 2 extra attacks...
I hope this helps
| shroudb |
@reecy
that exactly is my problem.
rake in universal monster rules states that.
rake in summoner's eidolon list only says:
"The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target."
and specific tramples generic.
even in the Q&A thread i listed whomever answered said the same, that since in the eidolon it only says that each grapple attempt then it is this way and not only if you have started the round grappling
also, neither in universal nor in eidolon specific does it states that you can only rake once/round.
so, if you have greater/rapid grappler it means 3 checks/round (if you are already grappling ofc), and that is what translates to the 27 attacks/round at lvl 11...
| Reecy |
Wait wait I see where you are reading this...
lets start at the beginning
Improved Grapple- removes AoO when you grapple (grapple is a Standard Action)
Greater Grapple -
You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.
It allows you to now Turn grapple into a Move Action
So the Break Down goes like this
With both Feats
Move action Maintain Grapple
Standard Action ( Move Pin or attack grappled Target)
So now Based on just these 2 feats without Rapid
Round 1 you grapple
Round 2 Maintain Grapple, Maneuver or Attack and Rake
Now if we Add Rapid Grappler in
Round 1 Grapple,
Round 2 Grapple, Swift Action Maneuver, Attack and Rake
Now you mentioned Pounce would go like this
Round 1 Pounce - Full attack and Rake ( i Believe you get a free grapple check too)
Round 2 Move action Grapple, Swift action Maneuver, Attack and rake Rake
Basically Greater Grapple lets you Roll 2 times to hold the grapple and only needing to succeed on 1... Then Since it is now a move action you can attack and Rake because you maintained the grapple.
It is saying each time you succeed a Check the Only time you do the Check is Once a round it is meshing with the Universal rules perfectly. the problem is it Short handed it expecting everyone to go to those rules for exact clarification.
| shroudb |
actually it's more like:
1st round: pounce (allows you to do the rake attacks as per the pounce universal rules)
that means 1 bite +8 rakes +free grab due to bite
2nd round:
move ation (greater grapple) grapple check to maintain the grapple, you choose the damage option and so you do the damage (if you succeed) of the attack that grappled: bite
since you won a grapple check, as per the eidolon rake rules (you do your rake attacks everytime you win a grapple check) you do your 8 rakes.
swift action grapple (rapid grappler since you used your move action greater grapple to maintain a grapple), you choose the damage option and so you do the damage (if you succeed) of the attack that grappled: bite
since you won a grapple check, as per the eidolon rake rules (you do your rake attacks everytime you win a grapple check) you do your 8 rakes.
standard action grapple (just because you can) you choose the damage option and so you do the damage (if you succeed) of the attack that grappled: bite
since you won a grapple check, as per the eidolon rake rules (you do your rake attacks everytime you win a grapple check) you do your 8 rakes.
so in round 1 you did 9 attacks, and in round 2 you did 27.
FURTHERMORE, because it is stated explicity on the eidolon rake power that you do your rake attacks "everytime you win a grapple check". in round 1 you can do:
pounce: do the first 8 rake attacks, then do the bite attack, then do the free grapple, and if you win, do your 8 rake attack AGAIN (you just won a "grapple check nonsense"). for a total of 17 attacks on round 1 and 27 attacks on round 2 ...
edit: just noticed that on my original post i have forgotten to put the grab(bite) evolution, but whatever, a half-elf (even without wild caller) has enough points to add it. if you aren't just remove a set of rakes and put them on the next level...
| Reecy |
Ok look here
An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling.
These attacks are primary attacks.
The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target. These rake attacks deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form. This evolution counts as one natural attack toward the eidolon’s maximum. The summoner must be at least 4th level before selecting this evolution.
Ok now that I showed what it actually Says
Lets look at a Monster
Its attacks are broken down into 2 Phases
Primary and Secondary
You have to decide what your Primary attack you will use
Therefore if you are Raking You only get 2 addition Attacks....
I do not know where you are coming up with 8 it makes no Sense.
You need to understand how Combat works
Round 1 Pounce and Grapple Check, rake
Round 2 Grapple Check, Grapple Maneuver, Attack and rake
Round 3 Repeat
You can not check for Grapple Condition 5 times a round its one check and you get a 2 rolls only ONE applies it even says it in the Feat.
If you hold your Grapple you lose ALL but your Standard Attack and a 2 Claw Rake, which means you are incapable of attacking with more than 2 claws
I really Do see what your saying but your mechanics are all wrong
there is 1 Check and the second one is a Free maneuver
they are 2 very different things
| shroudb |
yeah, basically rake was intened to be when a tiger p.e. pounces you and then drops you to the ground it hits you with it's hind legs.
with summoner able to put a ton of legs with rake in them (more expensive attacks than simple claws, but can be put on feet and also count only as 1 maximum attack instead of 2 which they are) AND the ability to take combat feats (which most animals barring animal companions wouldn't qualify for) due to it's intelligence it becomes broken.
imo, the grapple feat chain is designed in such a way that a grappling fighter can do something like:
1st round move to the opponent and grapple him
2nd round, pin him, and then still do some damage (swift+standard) or even use move action to tie the opponent (albeit at -10) and then grapple and pin/tie an adjustent opponent.
not overpowered.
rake was designed so that animals could do more damage (through grab from bite->rake the rest turns) while they are grappling someone (since they can't do they normal attacks when they are grappling)
not overpowered
rake was then written for the eidolon in which they omited some stuff because they forgot (imo) like that it requires the target to be already grappled, and THEN they forgot that an eidolon could do 3 grabs (or MORE! if it has claws with the grab evolution) to totally break the damage it can do. From my above calculations, a properly buffed eidolon (just with enlarge, heroism, greater surge p.e.) could do on round 2 nearly 700 damage on almost all opponents
totally overpowered
edit: your post just showed up so:
look at eidolon abilities:
Rake (Ex)
An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target. These rake attacks deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form. This evolution counts as one natural attack toward the eidolon’s maximum. The summoner must be at least 4th level before selecting this evolution. Source: Advanced Player's Guide
you can have 5 maximum naturl attacks at lvl 11 for an eidolon. bite is free and mandatory to the quadraple form. the rest 4 you can buy whatever you want. you yeah, you can buy 4 rakes if you have 4 pair of legs
as for the grapple, yeah, a check is a check. a free combat maneuvar makes you do just that, a CHECK. it also explicitly says that you only need to pass ONE of those checks to maintain.
| Reecy |
I see what your saying but For them to do 3 grabs they would need to Fail at 1 or 2... Or Grab 2 targets which could be very possible.
Rake was designed so that an animal wasnt stuck doing nothing if you are pinned it loses a lot during a grapple and so they gave an ability to Attack...
But remember the big key to the whole this Grapple is a Condition it can only be applied 1 time...
But in your example
Second Round Move action is maintain Grapple, Swift action Pin, Standard Action Tie up
Round 3 Grab the next guy and start over
But you are right its not overpowered... But in both places the way it is written you get a max of 2 rakes and a Standard Attack Action.
| shroudb |
for some reason it doesn't allow me to edit, so further more:
greater grapple:
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.
rapid grappler:
Benefit: Whenever you use Greater Grapple to successfully maintain a grapple as a move action, you can then spend a swift action to make a grapple combat maneuver check.
eidolon rake:
Rake (Ex)
An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target. These rake attacks deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form. This evolution counts as one natural attack toward the eidolon’s maximum. The summoner must be at least 4th level before selecting this evolution. Source: Advanced Player's Guide
eidolon maximum natural attacks at lvl 11: 5
1 is the bite, 4 rakes (they count as only 1)
(emphasis mine)
| shroudb |
How do you get eight rakes? You can only take each evo once and rake only gives you two.
why thank you good sir!
that was exactly what i was looking for. while seemingly EVERY OTHER attack that the eidolon can take (claws, bites, tentacles, etc) can be taken more than once rakes don't say so.
i was just so accustommed of seeing my players pick 2 set of claws or two heads with bites and etc, that it never occured to me that rake didn't have that clause.
nice
| shroudb |
Shroud I said that like 5 Times I even Bolded it!!!
I think you just dont like me
haha ofc i have np with you m8.
i was just saying to you that "the universal rake rule has no bearing cause eidolons choose the attacks they want, so they could pick 3 rakes p.e."
i was saying that cause they can pick p.e. multiple claw attacks, or multiple sting attacks or whatever. you kept telling me that "the universal rules say..."
the thing is that rereading eidolon evolutions, they are just 3 attacks out of many (bite, rake, gore) that you cannot pick more than once, and i have missed that.
once it was pointed out that the eidolon rake never explicity said that you can pick it more than once, then it was clear.
still, in most cases it doesn't make sense, because p.e. an eidolon could be an 8 legged monster, pouncing the opponent, and in reality it should be able to attack with all of it's hind legs, it simply can't for whatever reason (even though if you had arms instead of feet, you could make 7 attacks with them) but whatever works.
my player will just have to adjust to his spider only having 8 legs in it's form but 4 of them being only cosmetic