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I think people either (i) don't care about D&D or (ii) do care about D&D. Those in (i) won't really notice this case. Those in (ii) will either have their prejudices confirmed or engage in a conversation such as in this thread. I don't see this decision as causing peole in group (i) to suddenly care/be wary.
Not when there's other, more important things to freak out about. Like kids these days and their sexting and glue sniffing.
Probably accurate, but I remain leery/concerned with regards to the perception of a pastime I enjoy. Espousing the positives of our pastime and attempting to educate people about D&D can counter at least some of the negative press we routinely receive (especially in mainstream media). At the very least it can't hurt. Better to say something than remain silent and then act shocked when someone uses something like this against "us".
Cheers
What?!?! In two years, I'll have moved on to bigger and better message boards.Is there a timeline for that so we can plan the after-party?
The Jacks will of course bring the beer.
Just like outside the prison where fellow gamers are working together to defeat a common enemy, fiction or not./sarcasm
That's right, they do. He/She is commonly known as the Game Master. That's as far as normal gamers take it. But then your normal gamers aren't, you know, f**king murderers.
The more I think about it the more I'm perfectly fine with D&D being banned in prison. At least the grade of prison murderers go to. If they want to have a geeky hobby in lock down then they can pick up Yugioh like all the other psychopaths.
Ghost post
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That's right, they do. He/She is commonly known as the Game Master. That's as far as normal gamers take it. But then your normal gamers aren't, you know, f**king murderers.The more I think about it the more I'm perfectly fine with D&D being banned in prison. At least the grade of prison murderers go to. If they want to have a geeky hobby in lock down then they can pick up Yugioh like all the other psychopaths.
I would think that the type of crime committed (or length of sentence) is largely irrelevant unless the prisoner has been diagnosed with mental illness that would be further exacerbated by playing a "fantasy" game.
Of course the point would be mute in the case of the "worst of the worst" as those types of inmates generally spend the vast majority of their incarceration segregated from all other prisoners, with little or no interaction. Incredibly tough to play a game of D&D, when you spend 23 hours or your day in your cell or in solitary confinement, let alone form a "gang" around the game.
Again, if playing D&D is so detrimental, then it should be a restricted activity that paroled felons should be disallowed from participating in.
If that sounds ridiculous then the former should likewise seem so.
Like I said, my issue lays in the negative light this article sheds upon our game. In a world where admitting that you play D&D is already a risky venture sometimes, more ammunition is not what we want. Believe me, this is far from an ideal situation. It is not like I am championing for every murderer and rapist the right to play, but rather that D&D in and of itself is not a factor that should be considered when talking about propensity for violence and criminal behavior. Even being tangentially linked is damaging enough and we should stand up for our game in instances like this.
Cheers
Maybe he should play Pathfinder. :)
TRUMPETS!
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Like I said, my issue lays in the negative light this article sheds upon our game. In a world where admitting that you play D&D is already a risky venture sometimes, more ammunition is not what we want. Believe me, this is far from an ideal situation. It is not like I am championing for every murderer and rapist the right to play, but rather that D&D in and of itself is not a factor that should be considered when talking about propensity for violence and criminal behavior. Even being tangentially linked is damaging enough and we should stand up for our game in instances like this.Cheers
Should really write the editors of the newspapers doing the reporting and the prison then. Whoever wrote the reasons for the case seem to have bent over backwards to make it clear they don't have a problem with d&d. I don't think I've ever seen a footnote linking to a company's website like that before.
Big fail for me on the procedural position. This is a summary judgment, no evidence was presented, just affidavits to support the basic facts underlying the claim. The problem is that the plaintiff did not address the arguments to the legal standard, which would require showing that the claims that D&D would not lead to gang activities was incorrect. The plaintiff didn't make that argument and didn't have any affidavits to support it.
Starts handing out cards to Sebastian's former clients. Proves cannon.
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Mr. Justice Tinder wrote the reasons for judgment. He's from Indianapolis. Anyone seen him at gencon?
From an interview:
http://www.indianabarrister.com/archives/2005/09/the_ten_spot_judge_john_d_ tind.html
10. What do you do for enjoyment and/or relaxation in your spare time?
Too many hobbies, not enough time. It is with reluctance that I discuss this subject at all because as soon as lawyers find out you have any kind of interest in something, they fall all over themselves trying throw analogies into their arguments and briefs to mention they think your favorite hobby is. When reports of my interest in baseball surfaced (I attended Dodger Fantasy Camp years ago), for months, I heard about foul balls, curve balls, home runs and balks until I could hardly stand it. Also, I am a little embarrassed for people to know about the frivolous ways I spend leisure time, and I don’t want people to think that I ever do anything other than work. Litigants (and lawyers) waiting for decisions don’t like to read about how their judge goofs off. Additionally, my out-of- office interests could be charitably described as eclectic, but perhaps more honestly could be labeled trivial and schizophrenic.
Closet gamer?
My personal, bleeding-heart-liberal, not-associated-with-Paizo opinion on this is two-fold:
1) D&D is a game where you form into armed gangs, kill other creatures, and take their stuff. I can see why prison officials (who have to deal with people who in real life quite possibly are involved in armed gangs, kill people, and take their stuff) would be against a game where such behavior is acceptable. Normal people understand that forming armed gangs, killing other people, and taking their stuff is wrong; people in prison are not "normal" in that sense, and the line that all gamers point to (reality vs. fantasy) when defending our hobby is very thin or absent in convicted murderers and thieves.
2) The guy's a lifer. He's not getting out of prison. Prison isn't rehabilitation for him, it's punishment and keeping him away from other people in society who don't want to be sledgehammered to death because they happen to be dating his sister. (He's in prison because he killed his sister's boyfriend with a sledgehammer). If I don't get to play games every night, this convicted murderer shouldn't get to either.
Does this suck for white-collar criminals and people convicted of nonviolent crimes (such as marijuana possession)? Yes, it does. Does the presence of these people justify allowing thieves and murderers being allowed to play a game where you take the role of a murderer and thief? I don't think so.
TSR received letters from prisons. So did Wizards. And so does Paizo. I don't want to make a blanket statement of "No RPGs in prisons!" but I understand the concerns the prison management has, and don't have a lot of sympathy for the person making the complaint.
My personal, bleeding-heart-liberal, not-associated-with-Paizo opinion on this is two-fold:
1) D&D is a game where you form into armed gangs, kill other creatures, and take their stuff. I can see why prison officials (who have to deal with people who in real life quite possibly are involved in armed gangs, kill people, and take their stuff) would be against a game where such behavior is acceptable. Normal people understand that forming armed gangs, killing other people, and taking their stuff is wrong; people in prison are not "normal" in that sense, and the line that all gamers point to (reality vs. fantasy) when defending our hobby is very thin or absent in convicted murderers and thieves.
2) The guy's a lifer. He's not getting out of prison. Prison isn't rehabilitation for him, it's punishment and keeping him away from other people in society who don't want to be sledgehammered to death because they happen to be dating his sister. (He's in prison because he killed his sister's boyfriend with a sledgehammer). If I don't get to play games every night, this convicted murderer shouldn't get to either.
Does this suck for white-collar criminals and people convicted of nonviolent crimes (such as marijuana possession)? Yes, it does. Does the presence of these people justify allowing thieves and murderers being allowed to play a game where you take the role of a murderer and thief? I don't think so.
TSR received letters from prisons. So did Wizards. And so does Paizo. I don't want to make a blanket statement of "No RPGs in prisons!" but I understand the concerns the prison management has, and don't have a lot of sympathy for the person making the complaint.
My thoughts exactly.
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I admit I haven't read all the articles so someone correct me if I am wrong. It says they were playing D&D did it say what type of D&D game they were playing (What I mean is D&D is capable of being used to play all sorts of scenarios from being the Knights in shining armour saving a maiden from a dragon to all the players being members of a thieves guild trying to escape from a prison and I can imagine the staff at the prison being okay with one form of the game and not being okay with the other.)
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My personal, bleeding-heart-liberal, not-associated-with-Paizo opinion on this is two-fold:
1) D&D is a game where you form into armed gangs, kill other creatures, and take their stuff. I can see why prison officials (who have to deal with people who in real life quite possibly are involved in armed gangs, kill people, and take their stuff) would be against a game where such behavior is acceptable. Normal people understand that forming armed gangs, killing other people, and taking their stuff is wrong; people in prison are not "normal" in that sense, and the line that all gamers point to (reality vs. fantasy) when defending our hobby is very thin or absent in convicted murderers and thieves.
2) The guy's a lifer. He's not getting out of prison. Prison isn't rehabilitation for him, it's punishment and keeping him away from other people in society who don't want to be sledgehammered to death because they happen to be dating his sister. (He's in prison because he killed his sister's boyfriend with a sledgehammer). If I don't get to play games every night, this convicted murderer shouldn't get to either.
Does this suck for white-collar criminals and people convicted of nonviolent crimes (such as marijuana possession)? Yes, it does. Does the presence of these people justify allowing thieves and murderers being allowed to play a game where you take the role of a murderer and thief? I don't think so.
TSR received letters from prisons. So did Wizards. And so does Paizo. I don't want to make a blanket statement of "No RPGs in prisons!" but I understand the concerns the prison management has, and don't have a lot of sympathy for the person making the complaint.
Shouldn't that read "1) D&D is a game where you pretend to form into armed gangs, kill other creatures, and take their stuff"?
Otherwise your game and my game are VASTLY different! ;)
It's funny though, one of the best games I played as a kid was without dice...we just ab libed it, so they could too in the prison yard I suppose.
My personal, bleeding-heart-liberal, not-associated-with-Paizo opinion on this is two-fold:
1) D&D is a game where you form into armed gangs, kill other creatures, and take their stuff. I can see why prison officials (who have to deal with people who in real life quite possibly are involved in armed gangs, kill people, and take their stuff) would be against a game where such behavior is acceptable. Normal people understand that forming armed gangs, killing other people, and taking their stuff is wrong; people in prison are not "normal" in that sense, and the line that all gamers point to (reality vs. fantasy) when defending our hobby is very thin or absent in convicted murderers and thieves.
2) The guy's a lifer. He's not getting out of prison. Prison isn't rehabilitation for him, it's punishment and keeping him away from other people in society who don't want to be sledgehammered to death because they happen to be dating his sister. (He's in prison because he killed his sister's boyfriend with a sledgehammer). If I don't get to play games every night, this convicted murderer shouldn't get to either.
Does this suck for white-collar criminals and people convicted of nonviolent crimes (such as marijuana possession)? Yes, it does. Does the presence of these people justify allowing thieves and murderers being allowed to play a game where you take the role of a murderer and thief? I don't think so.
TSR received letters from prisons. So did Wizards. And so does Paizo. I don't want to make a blanket statement of "No RPGs in prisons!" but I understand the concerns the prison management has, and don't have a lot of sympathy for the person making the complaint.
Honestly, this is a slippery slope argument. You can ban any game because it's about combat, and you don't want prisoners to even think about combat, so no checker or chess or for god's sake Risk where you fantasize about taking over entire continents! And keep the white collar criminals away from Monopoly. Do you honestly think Bernie Madoff should be allowed to be the banker? And Candyland? I bet the prisons could produce some "expert" to testify that it's all a drug metaphor.
And let's not even get started on Uncle Wiggly. It has the smell of furry pedophilia all over it.
Ban all the books while you're at it. Agatha Christie will have them plotting murder again and again! And they would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for those Belgian detectives and old British spinsters!
Just leave them in a cell with a bible and then wonder why they're quoting stuff like "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones!"
Do you think a book like that should be in the hands of someone who killed their sister's boyfriend with a sledgehammer?
And yet it is, because of that whole First Amendment thing.
If you read the judge's paper, you find the extremely spurious reasoning from prison that a "Game Master" who "enforces rules" is the same as a "Gang Leader" who "enforces rules."
These aren't the same type of "rules" as should be obvious to anyone.
The idea that prisoners should be wearing sackcloth and ashes while they break rocks and eat cold gruel has everything to do with punishment and nothing to do with rehabilitation. And life imprisonment isn't always life: people win appeals, people get paroled, people get pardoned or exonerated. Something that keeps someone's mind active during that time is a good thing.
And quite honestly, I'd bet Captain Muraski's yearly consumption of donuts that he's some variety of religious fundamentalist who thinks that roleplaying games are plot of Satan (SATAN!) and is using "gang abatement" argument to ban something that he couldn't attack for outright religious reasons without falling afoul of the Establishment Clause.
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He killed his sister's boyfriend. With a sledgehammer.
f&!@ him.
I don't care if HE can play D&D. Ever again. Never did, never will.
I do care how D&D is (mis)represented in the mainstream media and in public opinion.
If the judgement was that homicidal maniacs shouldn't get nice things, you would not have heard anything from me on the matter.
It is the tilt of the reporting that I take issue with. Are you OK with the characterization of D&D as a gang activity which predisposes players to commit violence?
The guy is locked up in a cage, which is fair enough, as he put himself there. No one is suggesting it should all now be beer and skittles.
I look at it two ways:
1) The outcome indirectly casts a shadow on the Hobby, and it wont be long until some MADD fruitloop comes out and says "RPG's are SO DANGEROUS they are banned in PRISON!" - the potential fallout is quite significant.
Games companies might well bear this point in mind.
2) If we accept that the passtime is generally harmless, and actually good for people (they will socialise, use their brains etc) then why not let them play it? What are the guys alternatives for a bit of release and escape during a life behind bars? Drug taking? ACTUAL violence? - all these things stand to end up costing the TAXPAYER significantly more over the life of his tenure. Which is a big LOOSE for all of us.
(Edit- I lived through the bad old days of the 80's and the neo-witchhunts against gamers. I am now rather wary, and quite aware that the above is EXACTLY the catalyst that helped them get fuel last time. Ditto with heavy metal)
Agree with Lord Okoya. I'm more concerned of the precedent it sits with those who may be guilty of victimless crimes or other felonies that doesn't necessarily make them violent offenders. Would they be restricted from gaming?
What would be the reaction if this guy had a drug bust and was part of a gang? Would we be eliciting the same responses?
Are you OK with the characterization of D&D as a gang activity which predisposes players to commit violence?
Exactly, and as long as we leave this sort of portrayal unchallenged, the more weight it gains as a 'legitimate view'.
(Edit- I lived through the bad old days of the 80's and the neo-witchhunts against gamers. I am now rather wary, and quite aware that the above is EXACTLY the catalyst that helped them get fuel last time. Ditto with heavy metal)
Yeah, I remember the heavy metal - suicide backlash. Listening to Ozzy, Judas Priest, Slayer, etc. Play them backwards or subliminal messages instructing to commit suicide. *rolls eyes* And Cannibal Corpse and Body Count is the root of all violence, says Bob Dole. And don't get me started on Tipper Gore (I haven't forgotten you!) Love Dee Snider's verbal smackdown on those D.C. wives.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Now coming to you from the New York Times
I love that bugbear gangleader mini! I've got five of them.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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1) D&D is a game where you form into armed gangs, kill other creatures, and take their stuff....Shouldn't that read "1) D&D is a game where you pretend to form into armed gangs, kill other creatures, and take their stuff"?
Otherwise your game and my game are VASTLY different! ;)
Anyone seen Cosmo lately? It's been almost a week since he posted.
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He killed his sister's boyfriend. With a sledgehammer.
f&!@ him.
I don't care if HE can play D&D. Ever again. Never did, never will.
I do care how D&D is (mis)represented in the mainstream media and in public opinion.
If the judgement was that homicidal maniacs shouldn't get nice things, you would not have heard anything from me on the matter.
It is the tilt of the reporting that I take issue with. Are you OK with the characterization of D&D as a gang activity which predisposes players to commit violence?
I'm just not that bent out of shape about it.
i.e. f$+* them too.
Director of Sales
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Anyone seen Cosmo lately? It's been almost a week since he posted.
Heh.. I'm here. :)
In fact, I'm recording the wagers people make so that I may enforce them for the winner.
Whomever that may be.
They ranted about this on G4 as well.
And don't get me started on Tipper Gore (I haven't forgotten you!)
I won't if you won't!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Anyone seen Cosmo lately? It's been almost a week since he posted.Heh.. I'm here. :)
In fact, I'm recording the wagers people make so that I may enforce them for the winner.
Whomever that may be.
Oh. Phew. Good to see you, sir.
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1) D&D is a game where you form into armed gangs, kill other creatures, and take their stuff. I can see why prison officials (who have to deal with people who in real life quite possibly are involved in armed gangs, kill people, and take their stuff) would be against a game where such behavior is acceptable. Normal people understand that forming armed gangs, killing other people, and taking their stuff is wrong; people in prison are not "normal" in that sense, and the line that all gamers point to (reality vs. fantasy) when defending our hobby is very thin or absent in convicted murderers and thieves.
Arizona used to prohibit D&D: That decision was tossed a few years ago. The reasons given were much like the description given above. Additionally, inmates were suspected of using gaming notes to hide notes and plans for various criminal activities. Most inmates' games of D&D are pretty normal, but a few resemble something Nick Logue would toss as "too grotesque". Since most prison staff don't have clue one about D&D, they can't spot the differences between healthy recreational gaming and twisted, sick crap.
Honestly, this is a slippery slope argument. You can ban any game because it's about combat, and you don't want prisoners to even think about combat, so no checker or chess or for god's sake Risk where you fantasize about taking over entire continents! And keep the white collar criminals away from...
I think we can agree that there is a difference between games like Risk and Monopoly, and games like D&D where it's normal to talk in-character? Or games like GTA, where you take on a specific role of a violent criminal? Are you okay with mentally disturbed people (violent criminals) playing GTA? There is a GTA-like aspect to D&D, at least there are many games that are played that way--to the extent that "kick in the door" style of D&D is actually mentioned in the Dungeon Master's Guide.
And even if there were absolutely no difference between the mindset behind playing Risk/Monopoly/GTA/D&D (in other words, all of those games expected you to assume a first-person in character role), there is quite a difference between a mentally disturbed person getting too involved in Risk or Monopoly, and one getting too involved in GTA or D&D: the latter two have a first-person-I-get-to-kill-people aspect. And not encouraging that is A-OK in my book. After all, people claiming "D&D = makes you a murderer!" is bad, and "D&D is banned in prison because it's for murderers!" is even worse, worst of all is "guy plays D&D in prison, then later kills someone!" is the worst of all.
1) The outcome indirectly casts a shadow on the Hobby, and it wont be long until some MADD fruitloop comes out and says "RPG's are SO DANGEROUS they are banned in PRISON!" - the potential fallout is quite significant.
1) Most prisons already ban games like D&D, or any game using dice. The fruit loops haven't been able to use that to prove anything, any more than they've been able to ban knives or cigarettes because they're banned in prison.
2) Those fruit loops haven't accomplished ANYTHING regarding squelching RPGs since the 80s--a decade, mind you, where D&D was at its MOST successful. BADD, led by is founder and head fruit loop Pat Pulling has had zero members since she died in 1997.
So worrying about this starting a trend, or alarming the fruit loops, whatever, it's not an issue. This decade is more accepting of fantasy (and RPGs, and cosplay) than the 80s were by an order of magnitude.
Since most prison staff don't have clue one about D&D, they can't spot the differences between healthy recreational gaming and twisted, sick crap.
Exactly.
While your post makes a lot of sense Sean, you're drawing a cause and effect between a mode of entertainment and people's actions that simply isn't there. I am okay with unstable people playing GTA, because I don't believe it affects their likelihood of socially aberrant behavior one bit.
People should be held accountable for their behavior, and I don't believe that video games have any meaningful causal relationship to that behavior. Even implying that it does sets a dangerous precedent, both for the creators of media and for an individual's responsibility for their own actions.
That said, I agree with your points in general.
I think we can agree that there is a difference between games like Risk and Monopoly, and games like D&D where it's normal to talk in-character? Or games like GTA, where you take on a specific role of a violent criminal? Are you okay with mentally disturbed people (violent criminals) playing GTA? There is a GTA-like aspect to D&D, at least there are many games that are played that way--to the extent that "kick in the door" style of D&D is actually mentioned in the Dungeon Master's Guide.
Ever play Masterpiece, the art auction game? It came with a set of character cards, everything from the young heiress to the aging spinster who'd received her fortune from a secret admirer. The pictures were hilarious, the bios were equally fun, and as kids we used to play the auctions in character. Maybe this is abnormal, but no one ever explained that to us, and when I got into D&D, the fit was pretty natural.
I'd also have to say that bludgeoning your sister's boyfriend sounds more like a case of domestic violence and crime of passion (and a scenario from CLUE) than any of the basically anonymous violence that takes place in GTA or even a violent D&D game.
As for mentally disturbed people and/or violent criminals playing violent games, I think it should be a call for the prison psychologist to say whether any art form or outlet is helping, hurting, or basically neutral and do it on a case by case basis, not as a blanket ban. Blanket bans and zero-tolerance policies are generally made up by morons and/or power rapists who let a little authority replace what they formerly used for brains.
And quite honestly, having worked in public schools, I've seen "gang abatement programs" creating utterly ludicrous rules which had absolutely zero relationship to actual gangs but which fostered an aura of paranoia and fear among the students. I remember one middle school girl frantically scrubbing her hand like Lady MacBeth and crying because a pen had leaked ink on it, and I said it wasn't that bad, and she then explained that there was a school rule at this school against kids writing anything on their hands because it might be a gang sign, and if you had ink stains, it would be assumed you were part of a gang and had tried to cover it up and you'd get detention. I told her that was nuts (I was subbing at the time) and she said "Tell me about it!"
Now I assume you'll say there's a difference between a middle school girl and a convicted murderer, but in this case there isn't: an innocent action isn't made less innocent because of who's doing it or the fact that there's a paranoid overseer who's too stupid too breathe and considers everyone guilty until proven innocent.
Of course, I think its more cynical than that. Schools get extra money that they can spend on whatever they want so long as they have a "gang abatement program" and I strongly suspect prisons have the same thing. So instead of Captain Muraski being too stupid to breathe, it's entirely possible that he's just a modern Witchfinder General who realizes he'll be out of a job if he doesn't find a few with the devil's mark--ahem, gang sign--so he ends up making some accusations of witchcraft up. Or at least "gang activity," which is the modern flavor.
It even has the same smell of a witch hunt, with an anonymous letter with someone talking about them recruiting people to their coven/gang. And the judgment where since it the plaintiff cannot prove that roleplaying games cannot possibly lead to witchcraft, ahem, gang activity, it is assumed to be so.
It occurs to me that intelligent, well spoken gamers, like the folks on this board, should post some of these same comments on non-game sites. Most people don't really interact with any gamers, and think of us only in the way that we are often depicted in the media.
The bottom line is this is- RPGs are in the spotlight, thus it's a good time to spread the word about what a great pastime gaming is. Gather up a few of the points you think are best from this thread, and post them at your favorite news site, saying that you are a real gamer. Or better yet, reach people who's opinions actually matter by writing a letter, or a news article yourself.
...any more than they've been able to ban knives or cigarettes because they're banned in prison.
Well Sean here's where we are going to part ways.
In THIS country, we have already moved to the point where knives (the carriage of) is not only 'banned', it constitutes a serious criminal offence. Given the 'public outcry' (vocal minority) over knives there was legislation pushed through that means a Boy Scout with a Swiss Army Knife in his backpack was now Public Enemy #1.
Now you might say "and?", and I would point out that it only takes a small minority to get things kicked off, and once they go they take on a life of their own. It's due to SMALL MINORITIES in THIS country that we actually have Bans in place on Computer Games:
Fallout 3 was banned until it was censored.
The new Aliens/Predator game was initially banned.
BioShock was banned.
There's a whle raft of things that we get that are 'banned', and generally some idiot study from the US is cited as the rationale.
Hopefully the Religious Conservatives we have in power will get punted shortly, but I'm not so certain. Time will tell.
My argument with you Sean, and I mean this most honestly, is that when you come out and liken D&D to GTA in the way that you do, you provide a LOT of ammo to the numpties that would have our hobby blacklisted as you have 'Developer' next to your name, which means it all of a sudden adds a lot of weight to their arguments - they now get to say stuff like:
"Even high profile Game Developers agree that D&D is an ultra-violent game like GTA, glibly recreating murders and robbery by gangs - dont take OUR word for it - heres what HE said - "Games like GTA, where you take on a specific role of a violent criminal...There is a GTA-like aspect to D&D, at least there are many games that are played that way - Sean K Reynolds(Developer)"
Praise the Lord, and pass them the ammo.
As for mentally disturbed people and/or violent criminals playing violent games, I think it should be a call for the prison psychologist to say whether any art form or outlet is helping, hurting, or basically neutral and do it on a case by case basis, not as a blanket ban. Blanket bans and zero-tolerance policies are generally made up by morons and/or power rapists who let a little authority replace what they formerly used for brains.
You don't think like an inmate or like a prison administrator. Blanket rules work in that sort of setting because they are straightforward and easy to understand. Every time you indicate that you're going to judge things case-by-case, you open yourself up to accusations of bias or prejudice. "Why does HE get to play, but I don't?" Since the prison isn't going to discuss details of criminal history with the inmates, explaining your rationale becomes impossible.
Also, such decisions require sound background information. What makes you think prison psychologists know anything about RPGs?
Also, such decisions require sound background information. What makes you think prison psychologists know anything about RPGs?
Then they should make the effort to find out, and apply a bit of professional mastery. If they want to ban dice, then fine, ban dice.
If they want to play D&D then fine, no stigma; if they want to get into a storytelling game with each other talking about maim and murder then they will do that anyway - and its up to the Psych to determine the mental health of a prisoner. If he's a mentally ill nutjob then deal with THAT issue. Incidentally, no one has suggested that he IS a nutjob anyhow.
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A lot of good points made in the above posts by a number of posters.
I must say, much like Shifty, I too am a little disappointed with some of Sean's comments (sorry Sean) considering his position in the industry.
The fact that players of D&D role play to some degree (and that ranges wildly from hardly any at all to those who loathe to "break character") or inhabit a role within "the adventure story" is no more sinister than someone acting the part of a murderer in a local play. To say otherwise, or even hint at, is doing a huge disservice to our hobby IMHO.
You don't think like an inmate or like a prison administrator. Blanket rules work in that sort of setting because they are straightforward and easy to understand. Every time you indicate that you're going to judge things case-by-case, you open yourself up to accusations of bias or prejudice. "Why does HE get to play, but I don't?" Since the prison isn't going to discuss details of criminal history with the inmates, explaining your rationale becomes impossible.
Also, such decisions require sound background information. What makes you think prison psychologists know anything about RPGs?
Because one of my friends in college was the son of a prison psychologist, and she had more than half a clue? Because that was more than twenty years ago and D&D is such a known part of popular culture that anyone graduating from college now without a base knowledge that roleplaying games exist had to have forged their resume?
As for thinking like an inmate or prison administrator, as Sean mentioned earlier, there are many inmates in the country playing roleplaying games and hardly beneath the radar either. Consequently, I would have to say there are a lot of wardens who are aware of this and find the hobby either beneficial or inconsequential, with the exception of one prison in Wisconsin which I strongly suspect is being run by some religious fanatic trying to sneak around the Establishment Clause by means of twaddle about "gang abatement."
As for thinking like an inmate, I can at least report some familiarity with gang culture due to years of teaching mixed with a degree in anthropology focused on symbolic anthropology. This means that I was pretty quick to pick out the actual gang signs the students were using, as opposed to the antiquated ones the geriatric administrators were trying to be on the lookout for. And when I wasn't, the kids told me.
I think the gang officer is also too stupid to understand the difference between gang colors and a style tribe.
My personal, bleeding-heart-liberal, not-associated-with-Paizo opinion on this is two-fold:
1) D&D is a game where you form into armed gangs, kill other creatures, and take their stuff. I can see why prison officials (who have to deal with people who in real life quite possibly are involved in armed gangs, kill people, and take their stuff) would be against a game where such behavior is acceptable. Normal people understand that forming armed gangs, killing other people, and taking their stuff is wrong; people in prison are not "normal" in that sense, and the line that all gamers point to (reality vs. fantasy) when defending our hobby is very thin or absent in convicted murderers and thieves.
2) The guy's a lifer. He's not getting out of prison. Prison isn't rehabilitation for him, it's punishment and keeping him away from other people in society who don't want to be sledgehammered to death because they happen to be dating his sister. (He's in prison because he killed his sister's boyfriend with a sledgehammer). If I don't get to play games every night, this convicted murderer shouldn't get to either.
Does this suck for white-collar criminals and people convicted of nonviolent crimes (such as marijuana possession)? Yes, it does. Does the presence of these people justify allowing thieves and murderers being allowed to play a game where you take the role of a murderer and thief? I don't think so.
TSR received letters from prisons. So did Wizards. And so does Paizo. I don't want to make a blanket statement of "No RPGs in prisons!" but I understand the concerns the prison management has, and don't have a lot of sympathy for the person making the complaint.
Thanks for posting something from the developers side.
I hadn't thought about the issue from that angle as far as being asked for materials for criminals. I understand that companies regularly donate to our soliders in the feild, which I am thabnkfull for, I had no idea that prisoners were asking for hand outs to whil away the hours between feedings.On a entirly diffrent note I love your website. it's a great resource and the domain updates for the spell compendium have saved so many arguments between my DM and the players. He's the type that says if it isn't 100% official I'm not letting it in my game. Since your a developer he says it's close enough. Thanks again for all your hard work.
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Now coming to you from the New York TimesI love that bugbear gangleader mini! I've got five of them.
You mean the bugbear with the sledgehammer-looking object that they pictured for their article? Yeah, I can see that this could turn into a Bad Thing for D&D. I couldn't care less about the a-hole in prison not being able to play, but I do care that the subtle imagery portrayed in that article about a sledgehammering murderer can paint my hobby with a bad color.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Now coming to you from the New York TimesI love that bugbear gangleader mini! I've got five of them.You mean the bugbear with the sledgehammer-looking object that they pictured for their article? Yeah, I can see that this could turn into a Bad Thing for D&D. I couldn't care less about the a-hole in prison not being able to play, but I do care that the subtle imagery portrayed in that article about a sledgehammering murderer can paint my hobby with a bad color.
Yes. The bugbear gangleader with the sledge hammer. Someone read the name on the bottom of the mini when choosing a photo to accompany an article about D&D turning sledgehammer wielding murderers into gang leaders.
This still won't ruin my love for that mini.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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1) Most prisons already ban games like D&D, or any game using dice. The fruit loops haven't been able to use that to prove anything, any more than they've been able to ban knives or cigarettes because they're banned in prison.
2) Those fruit loops haven't accomplished ANYTHING regarding squelching RPGs since the 80s--a decade, mind you, where D&D was at its MOST successful. BADD, led by is founder and head fruit loop Pat Pulling has had zero members since she died in 1997.
"The fruit loops" don't need to prove anything to make the life of a bunch of teenagers in some high school somewhere more miserable. They never had to prove anything. They just needed to scare a few principals into banning the game and convince a few teachers that they should keep an eye on certain students.
No, I don't think table-top roleplaying will ever be the target it once was. The hobby is simply not that big of a target compared to computer games.
I think that adult gamers need to be ready to counter claims that D&D leads to "competitive hostility, violence, addictive escape behaviors, and possible gambling” with some ready answers such as:
(1) Hockey leads to "competitive hostility, violence, addictive escape behaviors, and possible gambling".
(2) D&D leads to literacy, better math skills, improved vocabulary, and knowing when to eliminate the word 'will' from your sentences.
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(1) Hockey leads to "competitive hostility, violence, addictive escape behaviors, and possible gambling".
Hey! Are you trying to get hockey banned now too?!?
Geesh, I mean a couple of junior players almost maim/injure/kill opposing players (just in the last week or so) with vicious hits to the head and all of a sudden hockey is "competitive hostility and violence"?
And I thought you were a proud Canadian! Shame on you!
Oh wait. What am I thinking... that describes hockey pretty well actually. Never mind. ;)
PS Go Canada! (February 21st 3:30pm MST)