"Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher."
Does this mean that the burn ability DC's on my small fire elemental familiar will go up as well?
Looks that way. Poison just keeps getting a boost!
Burn away Calcifer, burn them to a cinder!
What about skills, feats, ability increases, etc.?
What about skills, feats, ability increases, etc.?
Interesting. A familiar already has its master's skill ranks. Feats and ability increases? Is a familiar considered a character for level advancement purposes?
What about skills, feats, ability increases, etc.?Interesting. A familiar already has its master's skill ranks. Feats and ability increases? Is a familiar considered a character for level advancement purposes?
He may have his master's skills yes, but he also keeps his own skills. If his own skills were to get higher with hit dice, it would be much the same as it is now.
Feats and ability increase would go a long way towards making a familiar much more powerful.
I'm not saying this is the way it is, more like I'm asking if this is the way it is. The passage I quoted above is a rather broad and vague one.
Essentially, is a familiar like an animal companion of sorts? You just up it's HD to match your level with a few exceptions (like it using your base saves if they are better and having half your total hit points irregardless of its own ability scores).
Feats and ability increase would go a long way towards making a familiar much more powerful.
I'm not saying this is the way it is, more like I'm asking if this is the way it is. The passage I quoted above is a rather broad and vague one.
Essentially, is a familiar like an animal companion of sorts? You just up it's HD to match your level with a few exceptions (like it using your base saves if they are better and having half your total hit points irregardless of its own ability scores).
You may have tumbled onto a clue right there. If the familiar gained skills and feats like an animal companion, why not present it in a similar manner to the way animal companions are presented?
Given how animal companions only get what's in the animal companion abilities section (even if an ordinary animal of its type would have other or more powerful abilities) I doubt the ruling here would go much differently.
Adding more skills would make the familiar a particularly effective skill-monkey, which I do not believe is the intent of its design.
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Actually guys, familiars don't gain additional hit dice when you level up. Check here on page 82:
A couple paragraphs later we see hit dice appear again:
So, the familiar doesn't ever gain hit dice, but you get to pretend he does when figuring out how powerful his poison/burn/whirlwind/ect. is. This also means that the familiar won't gain feats or skill points.
If they have casting abilities when they are made a familiar then perhaps the effective level of those abilities might go up when the masters level exceeds the familiar's initial level\hd.See p.83
In any case it is an either\or proposition 'use the masters character level or the familiar's normal hd total'. By RAW the familiar has no progression they can call their own.
It is not at all clear that the master's HD\Level justifies greater casting powers in a familiar. That is nowhere listed as a familiar's bonus. Thematically the familiar is an intimate extension of the spellcaster's life force it is not a henchman or a cohort.
"For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever is better." p83
The familiar has the skill ranks that were his before he became a familiar or his master's skill ranks. There is no progression in the familiar as if he/she/it were a character. There is only replacement if the masters are better. The masters skill ranks grow as normal.
Sigurd
Thanks Sean!
Do you think that effects based on HD such as burn/poison DCs would go up though?
Thanks Sean!
Do you think that effects based on HD such as burn/poison DCs would go up though?
Of course they do. It's stated explicitly that you treat the familiar as a creature of (master's level) HD when determining these effects. It's what makes vipers, pseudodragons, and elementals so fantastic.
Mephits are pretty rad, too- but mostly because Eldritch Knights can hand them a longbow and have them pelt away with stray arrows as they take full advantage of your high BAB.
I was thinking of getting an imp (the improved kind mentioned in the text) for a witch-themed character. How do they compare to the other options?
An imp seems fair enough, pretty durable for a familiar.
DR, fasthealing, some resistances and immunities.
Also it can fly, become invisible at will and change shape, telepathy, got some divination ability and got a decent poison attack (dont expect miracles though).
The fact alone that it is intelligent can be extremely helpful, be sure to invest in use magic device ^^ and sleight of hand >>
They are awesome for flavour at least, it could easily pose as a raven much of the time.
A quasit is better for combat purposes it seems, having nastier poison and two attacks per round.
An imp seems fair enough, pretty durable for a familiar.
DR, fasthealing, some resistances and immunities.
Also it can fly, become invisible at will and change shape, telepathy, got some divination ability and got a decent poison attack (dont expect miracles though).
The fact alone that it is intelligent can be extremely helpful, be sure to invest in use magic device ^^ and sleight of hand >>
They are awesome for flavour at least, it could easily pose as a raven much of the time.
A quasit is better for combat purposes it seems, having nastier poison and two attacks per round.
I think maybe I will stick with the imp over the quasit and others then. I'm more interested in sly manipulation and survivability then I am with combat.
Thanks Sean!
Do you think that effects based on HD such as burn/poison DCs would go up though?
Of course they do. It's stated explicitly that you treat the familiar as a creature of (master's level) HD when determining these effects. It's what makes vipers, pseudodragons, and elementals so fantastic.
Mephits are pretty rad, too- but mostly because Eldritch Knights can hand them a longbow and have them pelt away with stray arrows as they take full advantage of your high BAB.
!!RESURRECTION!!
If I can bring this thread back to life - Why would the poison improve? The DC is based on a stat (Con) in the case of poison.For Example:
From the Imp entry in the Bestiary (PDF)-
Poison (Ex) Sting—injury; save Fort DC 13; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1d2 Dex; cure 1 save. The save DC is Constitution-based, and includes a +2racial bonus.
and burn damage is again not related to HD but is set for the 'base creature' - (Whirlwind is in duration and DC but not the 'size' of the wind, so it's still small)
Can anyone shed any light?
So, the familiar doesn't ever gain hit dice, but you get to pretend he does when figuring out how powerful his poison/burn/whirlwind/ect. is.
Shame that makes them super vulnerable to Con damage as well.
Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain
Constitution: Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed.
Sure sounds like an effect related to number of hit dice...
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Why would the poison improve? The DC is based on a stat (Con) in the case of poison.
For Example:
From the Imp entry in the Bestiary (PDF)-Poison (Ex) Sting—injury; save Fort DC 13; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1d2 Dex; cure 1 save. The save DC is Constitution-based, and includes a +2racial bonus.and burn damage is again not related to HD but is set for the 'base creature' - (Whirlwind is in duration and DC but not the 'size' of the wind, so it's still small)
Can anyone shed any light?
Check the mechanics for Burn on p 298 of the Bestiary. The DC is calculated as 10 + 1/2 racial HD + Con modifier. So, *if* the fire elementals racial HD (for calculating effects of special abilities) was now equal to the Wizard's level, instead of being 10 + 1/2 of 3 HD + Con mod 0 = DC 11, it would be 10 + Wizard level 7 + Con mod 0 = DC 13.
Poison is calculated the same way, DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + Con mod, so that a Viper that isn't a familiar has 10 + 1/2 of 1 HD + -1 Con mod (for it's Con of 8) = DC 9.
The Viper familiar of a 10th level Wizard would have DC 10 + 1/2 of 10th Wizard + the Con mod of -1, for a DC 14.
It's not a game-breaking advantage (ooh, DC 14 poison at *10th level*!), but it's a minor perk.
On the other hand, Psuedodragon Sleep poison is pretty badass--they even have a racial bonus to the save DC, so it can be pretty competetive.
Check the mechanics for Burn on p 298 of the Bestiary. The DC is calculated as 10 + 1/2 racial HD + Con modifier. So, *if* the fire elementals racial HD (for calculating effects of special abilities) was now equal to the Wizard's level, instead of being 10 + 1/2 of 3 HD + Con mod 0 = DC 11, it would be 10 + Wizard level 7 + Con mod 0 = DC 13.Poison is calculated the same way, DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + Con mod, so that a Viper that isn't a familiar has 10 + 1/2 of 1 HD + -1 Con mod (for it's Con of 8) = DC 9.
The Viper familiar of a 10th level Wizard would have DC 10 + 1/2 of 10th Wizard + the Con mod of -1, for a DC 14.
It's not a game-breaking advantage (ooh, DC 14 poison at *10th level*!), but it's a minor perk.
Nice one! Universal Monster Rules again! I seem to have a strange blind spot for that section ;¬)
So Pseudodragon or Imp for example would have a DC of 15 at Master level 7? makes it a little better.
Can you milk your familiar's poison?That's between you and your god.
Or the Town Watch
"Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher."
Effects based on HD are spells like Sleep, Daze Monster, etc ...
For the rest, familiars never really gain HD so their abilities like Imp's poison or Silvanshee's Lay on hand stay what they are.
A viper, familiar of a 5th level wizard can't be affected by a sleep spell, it is considered as having 5 HDs. Its poison is the same as a standard viper.
Some DMs allow familiars to enhance their abilities as if they gained HD when their master level up, but this is clearly a house rule.
For abilities based on hit dice, a familiar uses their master's hit dice as it's own. Poison and Lay on Hands are based on hit dice, so how is it a house rule?
"Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher."
The Psuedodragon's Sleep poison is an effect related to number of Hit Dice. Yes, it really is that simple and it is not a house rule.
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"Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher."
Effects based on HD are spells like Sleep, Daze Monster, etc ...
For the rest, familiars never really gain HD so their abilities like Imp's poison or Silvanshee's Lay on hand stay what they are.
A viper, familiar of a 5th level wizard can't be affected by a sleep spell, it is considered as having 5 HDs. Its poison is the same as a standard viper.
Some DMs allow familiars to enhance their abilities as if they gained HD when their master level up, but this is clearly a house rule.
And this is the main reason why I consider the Homonculus to be the best of all familiars.
Unlike the others it has a built in mechanism to actually permanently increase it's base Hit Die with no limit on how high you can take it.For about the cost of a decent +4 weapon you can pick up a 20HD familiar of any size from Tiny to Gargantuan with 10 feats, 40+ skill points, Fighters BaB, amazing stats and immunities out the wazoo. Add to that a telepathic link to it and perfect loyalty from it as well as the ability to add all the construct mods onto it you want.
If you really wanted to you could wear it like a suit and put any Synthesist to shame as you dominate everything around you.
All of this is available around 8th level too if you follow the wealth by level chart, 7th if you don't.
"Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher."
Effects based on HD are spells like Sleep, Daze Monster, etc ...
For the rest, familiars never really gain HD so their abilities like Imp's poison or Silvanshee's Lay on hand stay what they are.
A viper, familiar of a 5th level wizard can't be affected by a sleep spell, it is considered as having 5 HDs. Its poison is the same as a standard viper.
Some DMs allow familiars to enhance their abilities as if they gained HD when their master level up, but this is clearly a house rule.
And this is the main reason why I consider the Homonculus to be the best of all familiars.
Unlike the others it has a built in mechanism to actually permanently increase it's base Hit Die with no limit on how high you can take it.For about the cost of a decent +4 weapon you can pick up a 20HD familiar of any size from Tiny to Gargantuan with 10 feats, 40+ skill points, Fighters BaB, amazing stats and immunities out the wazoo. Add to that a telepathic link to it and perfect loyalty from it as well as the ability to add all the construct mods onto it you want.
If you really wanted to you could wear it like a suit and put any Synthesist to shame as you dominate everything around you.All of this is available around 8th level too if you follow the wealth by level chart, 7th if you don't.
How can you make a homunculus gargantuan? Where are those construct modification rules people talk about :D
Nosois are kickass because their fascinate ability (besides being the best familiar anyway...). Unlimited times per day... okay DC... count me in
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"Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher."
Effects based on HD are spells like Sleep, Daze Monster, etc ...
For the rest, familiars never really gain HD so their abilities like Imp's poison or Silvanshee's Lay on hand stay what they are.
A viper, familiar of a 5th level wizard can't be affected by a sleep spell, it is considered as having 5 HDs. Its poison is the same as a standard viper.
Some DMs allow familiars to enhance their abilities as if they gained HD when their master level up, but this is clearly a house rule.
And this is the main reason why I consider the Homonculus to be the best of all familiars.
Unlike the others it has a built in mechanism to actually permanently increase it's base Hit Die with no limit on how high you can take it.For about the cost of a decent +4 weapon you can pick up a 20HD familiar of any size from Tiny to Gargantuan with 10 feats, 40+ skill points, Fighters BaB, amazing stats and immunities out the wazoo. Add to that a telepathic link to it and perfect loyalty from it as well as the ability to add all the construct mods onto it you want.
If you really wanted to you could wear it like a suit and put any Synthesist to shame as you dominate everything around you.All of this is available around 8th level too if you follow the wealth by level chart, 7th if you don't.
How can you make a homunculus gargantuan? Where are those construct modification rules people talk about :D
Nosois are kickass because their fascinate ability (besides being the best familiar anyway...). Unlimited times per day... okay DC... count me in
Bestiary 2 has the relevant rules.
As for getting it to gargantuan, every time a creatures hit die increases by a certain amount it has the option of going up 1 size category. You are adding 20+ hit die to this creature (it costs 2K gold per hit die by the way) so you can just keep increasing it's size every time you hit the target HD.You aslo get 1 extra feat per 2 hd increase and 2+int skill points per 1 HD increase. Finally Constructs get +1 BaB per HD increase. See where your imagination runs if you can build from scratch a 20+HD construct for about the cost a really good longsword.
As for the construct modification rules they are optional rules from the ultimate magic book.
The homonculus HD increase is from the beastiary however.
"Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher."
Effects based on HD are spells like Sleep, Daze Monster, etc ...
For the rest, familiars never really gain HD so their abilities like Imp's poison or Silvanshee's Lay on hand stay what they are.
A viper, familiar of a 5th level wizard can't be affected by a sleep spell, it is considered as having 5 HDs. Its poison is the same as a standard viper.
Some DMs allow familiars to enhance their abilities as if they gained HD when their master level up, but this is clearly a house rule.
And this is the main reason why I consider the Homonculus to be the best of all familiars.
Unlike the others it has a built in mechanism to actually permanently increase it's base Hit Die with no limit on how high you can take it.For about the cost of a decent +4 weapon you can pick up a 20HD familiar of any size from Tiny to Gargantuan with 10 feats, 40+ skill points, Fighters BaB, amazing stats and immunities out the wazoo. Add to that a telepathic link to it and perfect loyalty from it as well as the ability to add all the construct mods onto it you want.
If you really wanted to you could wear it like a suit and put any Synthesist to shame as you dominate everything around you.All of this is available around 8th level too if you follow the wealth by level chart, 7th if you don't.
How can you make a homunculus gargantuan? Where are those construct modification rules people talk about :D
Nosois are kickass because their fascinate ability (besides being the best familiar anyway...). Unlimited times per day... okay DC... count me in
Bestiary 2 has the relevant rules.
As for getting it to gargantuan, every time a creatures hit die increases by a certain amount it has the option of going up 1 size category. You are adding 20+ hit die to this...
The way I see it you can only increase the HD of an construct by 50% so its size doesn't change?
And Homunculi use special rules for them and their size never changes no matter how many HDs they have.|
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"Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher."
Effects based on HD are spells like Sleep, Daze Monster, etc ...
For the rest, familiars never really gain HD so their abilities like Imp's poison or Silvanshee's Lay on hand stay what they are.
A viper, familiar of a 5th level wizard can't be affected by a sleep spell, it is considered as having 5 HDs. Its poison is the same as a standard viper.
Some DMs allow familiars to enhance their abilities as if they gained HD when their master level up, but this is clearly a house rule.
And this is the main reason why I consider the Homonculus to be the best of all familiars.
Unlike the others it has a built in mechanism to actually permanently increase it's base Hit Die with no limit on how high you can take it.For about the cost of a decent +4 weapon you can pick up a 20HD familiar of any size from Tiny to Gargantuan with 10 feats, 40+ skill points, Fighters BaB, amazing stats and immunities out the wazoo. Add to that a telepathic link to it and perfect loyalty from it as well as the ability to add all the construct mods onto it you want.
If you really wanted to you could wear it like a suit and put any Synthesist to shame as you dominate everything around you.All of this is available around 8th level too if you follow the wealth by level chart, 7th if you don't.
How can you make a homunculus gargantuan? Where are those construct modification rules people talk about :D
Nosois are kickass because their fascinate ability (besides being the best familiar anyway...). Unlimited times per day... okay DC... count me in
Bestiary 2 has the relevant rules.
As for getting it to gargantuan, every time a creatures hit die increases by a certain amount it has the option of going up 1 size category. You are...
The way I see it you can only increase the HD of an construct by 50% so its size doesn't change?
And Homunculi use special rules for them and their size never changes no matter how many HDs they have.
There are no rules in the homonculus entry stating that increasing it's HD doesn't also increase it's size, so where are you seeing any rules stating that fact.
If you are referring to the MODIFYING construct rules from Ultimate Magic those are all flagged as strictly optional and are not considered as the default for the Pathfinder Rules set.
If your DM does decide to make them the default remind him that those are for changing the construct AFTER it has been created.
"Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher."
Effects based on HD are spells like Sleep, Daze Monster, etc ...
For the rest, familiars never really gain HD so their abilities like Imp's poison or Silvanshee's Lay on hand stay what they are.
A viper, familiar of a 5th level wizard can't be affected by a sleep spell, it is considered as having 5 HDs. Its poison is the same as a standard viper.
Some DMs allow familiars to enhance their abilities as if they gained HD when their master level up, but this is clearly a house rule.
The DC of save abilities are explicitly based on the hit dice of a creature. As is the number of times per day and amount healed by say its lay on hands ability.
Per RAW that means that it uses the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, which ever is higher.
The Silvanshee's Lay on Hands just says it functions as of a second level paladin... that seems different to me.
DC's follow a formula, so that makes sense, but the LOH thing strikes me as not so definite
The Silvanshee's Lay on Hands just says it functions as of a second level paladin... that seems different to me.
DC's follow a formula, so that makes sense, but the LOH thing strikes me as not so definite
It's not that simple:
Agathions are beast-aspect outsiders native to Nirvana.
Agathion have the following traits:
Low-light vision
Immunity to electricity and petrification.
Resistance to cold 10 and sonic 10.
Lay on hands as a paladin whose level equals the agathion’s Hit Dice.
+4 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
Except where otherwise noted, agathions speak Celestial, Infernal, and Draconic.
Speak with Animals (Su): This ability works like speak with animals (caster level equal to the agathion’s Hit Dice): but is a free action and does not require sound.
Truespeech (Su): All agathions can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level equal to angel’s Hit Dice). This ability is always active.
It says second level since the typical Silvanshee only has 2 hit dice.
Honestly this whole subject has already been covered in the rules forum with Sean Reynolds (designer for Paizo) weighing in that the familiar's DCs are adjusted by the 'increase' in hit dice.
Ah sorry never saw that part, my bad.
Yeah that all makes sense then :P
No problems, everyone makes mistakes or misses things (heck I completely flubbed one in the Sohei thread myself).
Silvanshee is a lot better than I thought it was then.... hmmm...
*ideas bubbling*
Silvanshee, I came here exactly to point out how better they are with this rule!
Honestly this whole subject has already been covered in the rules forum with Sean Reynolds (designer for Paizo) weighing in that the familiar's DCs are adjusted by the 'increase' in hit dice.
That thread could do with being in the FAQ because I spent a good while searching for something definitive before I posted in this thread.
..."Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher."
Effects based on HD are spells like Sleep, Daze Monster, etc ...
For the rest, familiars never really gain HD so their abilities like Imp's poison or Silvanshee's Lay on hand stay what they are.
A viper, familiar of a 5th level wizard can't be affected by a sleep spell, it is considered as having 5 HDs. Its poison is the same as a standard viper.
Some DMs allow familiars to enhance their abilities as if they gained HD when their master level up, but this is clearly a house rule.
And this is the main reason why I consider the Homonculus to be the best of all familiars.
Unlike the others it has a built in mechanism to actually permanently increase it's base Hit Die with no limit on how high you can take it.For about the cost of a decent +4 weapon you can pick up a 20HD familiar of any size from Tiny to Gargantuan with 10 feats, 40+ skill points, Fighters BaB, amazing stats and immunities out the wazoo. Add to that a telepathic link to it and perfect loyalty from it as well as the ability to add all the construct mods onto it you want.
If you really wanted to you could wear it like a suit and put any Synthesist to shame as you dominate everything around you.All of this is available around 8th level too if you follow the wealth by level chart, 7th if you don't.
How can you make a homunculus gargantuan? Where are those construct modification rules people talk about :D
Nosois are kickass because their fascinate ability (besides being the best familiar anyway...). Unlimited times per day... okay DC... count me in
Bestiary 2 has the relevant rules.
As for getting it to gargantuan, every time a creatures hit die increases by a certain amount it has the option of going up 1
Per RAW you are right as I see it. But I am not sure it is RAI that a Homunculus gets Gargantuan :D
That thread could do with being in the FAQ because I spent a good while searching for something definitive before I posted in this thread.Honestly this whole subject has already been covered in the rules forum with Sean Reynolds (designer for Paizo) weighing in that the familiar's DCs are adjusted by the 'increase' in hit dice.
That it certainly could.
The DC of save abilities are explicitly based on the hit dice of a creature. As is the number of times per day and amount healed by say its lay on hands ability.
Per RAW that means that it uses the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, which ever is higher.
Read carefully the rules please.
Silvanshee's Lay on Hand, Viper's Poison are abilities based on HD.
The familiar rules talk about effects based on HD !!
So I repeat : per RAW, the abilities of familiars don't improve when the master gains levels, some DMs houserule they can ...
And please search the forum, this subject has been discussed and clarified several times by the devs.
You mean like this?
Technically, that should scale with HD, so as written, a wiz20's silvanshee improved familiar would have 7 uses of 10d6 LOH per day. Which is, of course, way too good. We're probably going to errata the silvanshee so the damage still scales up with HD but it remains capped at 1/day.
Which has not been errata'ed in anyway? Where the developer straight up agrees that the silvanshee as written would indeed get extra uses of its LoH ability?
I mean it's not like it gets much clearer.