Now taking a Dragonne as a CoHort WITHOUT the special mount status which means it just has it's Bestiary stats... that's a different candle all together.
Nope. If you want to take a Dragonne as a mount, you must have an Animal Companion-equivalent class feature. That text is contained in the "Dragonnes as Mounts" section of its writeup. You can't take a Dragonne with Leadership unless you're a Druid, Paladin, Cleric with the Animal Domain, Ranger, or Cavalier.
I've read over the leadership feat, and I don't see anything that would prevent a player from using their Cohort (Any Race/Class) as a mount.
Dragonnes are not a race, nor are pretty much anything else designed to use as a mount. Yes, you could theoretically "mount" an orc barbarian or whatever, but that's getting way, way far afield and has little relevance to the discussion.
like Master Blaster in Thunderdome!!
Master Blaster rule Bartertown!
We use this reference about every other game session in our group. I have a halfling fighter and another PC is a half-orc barbarian. I always threaten to ride him into battle (hence the battlecry) but so far I haven't yet done so.
Now, back to your thread...
I'm confused by this. What exactly do you mean by the bolded text? Don't monsters all have Racial Hit Dice unless otherwise noted?
I'm of the opinion that "race" in the Leadership feat text is referring to either PC races (ie, those found in the Core Rulebook) or creatures from the Bestiary with "<Creature> as Characters" sections, such as Orcs (and even that I'm sure isn't what Paizo really intended, given their stance on players playing monster races). This is because there are no clearly-defined rules for what "level" a monster is, and Leadership clearly defines which level your Cohort can be.
Dragonnes have special rules for Leadership because they require special rules for Leadership to make sense in Pathfinder's system.
Thanks for pointing out the Monster Cohort chart; I'd completely forgotten about it. Note that there aren't terribly many real "mount" types on there, and the guideline is to advance them as Fighters which isn't terribly useful from a mount's perspective.
Anyway, this little sideline seems to be more-or-less resolved.
A paladin on his Pegasus mount or unicorn mount or Young Gold Dragon Mount does seem appropriate. As for advancing, fighters get lots of feats which helps customize a mount. I think there's some useful options here for a paladin who doesn't want to have their divine bond be with their mount.
Sure. It's just not going to be as good as a Special Mount, and Caineach who started this whole sub-thread said they'd be better. That's really what I was disputing, although I will admit I was wrong in that I thought it wasn't possible to take any of those critters as mounts unless you had an Animal Companion equivalent class feature.
The key things that make Animal Companions better are higher stats, higher AC, bonuses vs enchantments, and Improved Evasion. Fighter levels can alleviate the stats issue somewhat (with Weapon Training: natural attacks and fighter-specific weapon feats), but the rest can't really be emulated, and it's the saving throw stuff that's really important, especially when the absolute highest Fighter level they can get (for a Pegasus at Effective Cohort Level 6) is 11th for a 20th level Paladin.
It's better than buying a horse, but it's still not really level-appropriate. That level Pegasus Fighter 11 will get ripped to shreds by a Great Wyrm Dragon or Balor or Pit Fiend, etc. Heck, it will most likely even be in power word: stun range, which would make that Balor happy.
Hey, can someone poke the guy from d20pfsrd.com and get him to update Josh's responses in the FAQ? I think this would be a good one to have easy access to.
Gods yes, I love that game. You every try SR4? Same game but with a cleaner system. A heartfelt 10 on this end I'll tell ya thatOff-topic: I just started it myself. I like it.
Yes, they really have done a fine job with that system, cleaned up alot of trouble areas. I have to tip my hat to em, they have done well
Hey, can someone poke the guy from d20pfsrd.com and get him to update Josh's responses in the FAQ? I think this would be a good one to have easy access to.
He just made a thread about a grappling chart. If he responds to it I will point him this way.
The thing that the "But it says it can't go over +10 right here" crowd are missing is that, that section is inclusive. It is referring only to permanent magic item enhancements and as such doesn't apply to temporary effects like those from a spell or class ability.
Paizo's ruling is counter-intuitive. Also, don't tell me about Paizo's intent. Paizo did not write the rule, WotC did. Paizo is now opting to change the way it works, which would be fine but for three things: (1) they haven't put it in the errata or otherwise made it official, (2) it breaks several classes and prestige classes by making some of their core class abilities practically useless, and (3) the change was neither asked for nor is it wanted by most roleplayers on these forums.
The rules do, however, say that I can add +6 enchantment to any weapon if I'm a 20th level Paladin.They sure do. They also say you can't exceed a total of +10 worth of enhancement bonuses and special abilities with a maximum of +5 worth of enhancement bonus.
Did you ever notice, Mr. Frost that, that rule you refer to only applies to the permanent magical bonuses and special weapon abilities listed in that chapter? That is the way it worked when WotC wrote the rule (you guys didn't bother to change the wording after all) and that is the way it works now as written in Pathfinder. You ARE changing the rule by claiming that it applies to temporary bonuses (such as from spells and class abilities). Why fix something that wasn't broken to begin with?
As has been said by many, it causes more problems than it fixes.
Do you have some sort of Rules of the Game Article or post by one of the WotC guys where they actually say, "lookit this it's how WEBE works?" You can't really say, "That's how it's always been." Without showing where they've always said that...
I actually don't think this breaks the Arcane Archer's Enhance Arrow ability. Just means you can save money on your weapon.
If all your arrows are treated as +5 and you fire them from a +1 Fiery Burst longbow of Speed. It will be just like using a +5 Fiery Burst longbow of Speed.
That's the difference between 72,000gp and 200,000gp.
You can't argue that WotC had the Pathfinder Paladin in mind so really the only class that had an ability to improve their weapons specifically where Arcane Archers.
I would be interested in a Paizo opinion regarding firing an enchanted arrow from a +1 bow of +9 stuffs. Are all the abilities of the arrow turned off? Or does it still retain it's enchanted abilities since the wording on firing ammunition from a bow just says it bestows the ammunition with the extra damage.
Also RD, I think you missed this post from Frost
Although Jason just had a good point in our discussion: a clarifying line of this nature would be better in the magic weapons section that says, "No special abilities, spells, etc can ever increase a weapon above ... etc."
It's likely to appear in the next errata.
So they realize it's an issue that needs clarified and when they do an errata will be an item on the list.
Also RD, I think you missed this post from Frost
So they realize it's an issue that needs clarified and when they do an errata will be an item on the list.Although Jason just had a good point in our discussion: a clarifying line of this nature would be better in the magic weapons section that says, "No special abilities, spells, etc can ever increase a weapon above ... etc."
It's likely to appear in the next errata.
I saw it.
If they decide to actually change the rules with errata (and they WILL be changing the rules NOT clarifying them) that is fine, but I wonder if they understand the negative repercussions that will come of making such a dramatic change. They also better put similar text in the magic armor section for consistency's sake.
Also, the moment they come out with epic level rules, they will likely have to remove their own rule.
Also, the moment they come out with epic level rules, they will likely have to remove their own rule.
That's what I said earlier. You simply have that awesome +10 weapon and you can't use your abilities. The you get a +11 one, which have no limitation and ther you go adding up again.
It's ludicrous really.
That's what I said earlier. You simply have that awesome +10 weapon and you can't use your abilities.
This is not true, you can always use them, not on that weapon but you can always use them...or ya know take the mount
This is not true, you can always use them, not on that weapon but you can always use them...or ya know take the mountThat's what I said earlier. You simply have that awesome +10 weapon and you can't use your abilities.
True, cause the paladin is gonna drop his holy sword to use divine bond. Makes sense.
True, cause the paladin is gonna drop his holy sword to use divine bond. Makes sense.
No one told him to buy one he new he could not use now did they? And if your the GM you read the rules before you give out weapons that make the paladins ability less useful. Give him armor, holy relics and the like save the +10 weapon for a class that needs it.
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I am another player with the opinion that "this needs clarification" because the way I read the core rulebook now it seems to be specifically limiting the permanent enhancements and qualities on the weapon to +10, and not limiting temporary bonuses or temporary qualities. The parenthesies in the line mentioning +10 that are meant for clarification can be interpreted as a limiting factor.
As to whether the +10 limit SHOULD apply in all situations until epic levels, that's a horse of a different color. I'm not yet convinced either way because 1.) I don't like limitations in general and 2.) I know this could be one of the most easily exploited numbers for munchkins to go on parade with.
IMHO, my two cents.
Did you ever notice, Mr. Frost that, that rule you refer to only applies to the permanent magical bonuses and special weapon abilities listed in that chapter? That is the way it worked when WotC wrote the rule (you guys didn't bother to change the wording after all) and that is the way it works now as written in Pathfinder. You ARE changing the rule by claiming that it applies to temporary bonuses (such as from spells and class abilities). Why fix something that wasn't broken to begin with?
As has been said by many, it causes more problems than it fixes.
The old WOTC core rules (not going into splats here) didn't have a class mechanic like the Divine Weapon Bond, that enabled players to invest any temporary bonuses beyond enhancements to hit or damage. The rule was never written to cover something like the Paladin ability.
And again... the rule is only a problem with magic on the level of Monty Haul, in the expected level range of a campaign... 1-15 it works quite nicely.
Greater magic weapon is in the 3.5 core rules. That adds temporary enhancement bonuses. It is easy to take a +1 thundering, flaming, holy longsword of speed, cast a level 20 GMW on it and you are over the cap. All withing the 3.5 core rules, and you only need to be level 16 to do it. For a level 16 party, +7 weapon is not hard to get if you have enough money and a crafter in the party. A level 16 cleric with prayer bead of karma is a level 20 caster for 10 minutes a day.
About Divine Bond actually becoming weaker as you rise in level (and get weapons with more overall enhancement) I wonder if it actually does get "weaker"? Less versatile, yes, for any given weapon. But actually weaker? Some examples would be nice to compare, but I'm no optimizer.
As for the Holy Avenger, since a paladin with the weapon version of DB can basically make his own, customizable one, this sword seems more for the paladin who takes the mount instead.
Greater magic weapon is in the 3.5 core rules. That adds temporary enhancement bonuses. It is easy to take a +1 thundering, flaming, holy longsword of speed, cast a level 20 GMW on it and you are over the cap.
Sigh Again not by the rules in the book. This was only allowed by a FAQ change, it does not say anywhere in my PHB you can do such a thing. In fact if ya look in the magic chapter it says you may not.
Wotc chose to change that, but it was not in the book.
Could we give her a rancor?
If Seelah, who has chosen to form a Divine Bond with her mount, can purchase a holy avenger sword, then perhaps there ought to be a miraculous steed that her paladin friend Sherrif Hemlock, who's formed a Divine Bond with his weapon, could obtain.
Hmmm... perhaps there is one in the advanced player's guide? :)
Actually, though, the avenger's extra abilities still make it a good choice for the paladin w/ the weapon version of DB. Gaining SR for yourself and others nearby + at will greater dispel magic ain't too shabby.
I don't know about you guys but I never allow someone to just buy a holy avenger. That thing is a holy relic, it is not for sale. How ever if ya had two paladins ( awesome) and wanted to work the mount in that would not be hard. But like everything else it should be tailored to fit and not just randomly handed out IMO
I don't know about you guys but I never allow someone to just buy a holy avenger. That thing is a holy relic, it is not for sale. How ever if ya had two paladins ( awesome) and wanted to work the mount in that would not be hard. But like everything else it should be tailored to fit and not just randomly handed out IMO
Of course not ;) That's an awfully humdrum way to obtain such a significant item IMO.
But in the context of how the game is set up, (i.e. players are allowed to buy magic items), it's easier to speak within that context when discussing the rules.
Sigh Again not by the rules in the book. This was only allowed by a FAQ change, it does not say anywhere in my PHB you can do such a thing. In fact if ya look in the magic chapter it says you may not.
Hey Seeker! - we agree as almost always, but I was just curious where in the magic chapter (of 3.5 PHB you mean yes?) it says this.
Also, OP, anyone, what the heck is the "over 9000!" in the thread title? I just don't get it.
Sorry ment DMG, under magic weapons. In the magic chapter there as in the pathfinder core books it states a weapon can not have a total of more then +10
And yes I know Wotc in a FAQ said it could exceed this, however the book does not.
Over 9000 is a internet meme to Dragon ball z, there is a line where some one says it's over 9000!" and someone else says "Over 9000!" and so on
google "over 9000" you'll see it :)
Greater magic weapon is in the 3.5 core rules. That adds temporary enhancement bonuses. It is easy to take a +1 thundering, flaming, holy longsword of speed, cast a level 20 GMW on it and you are over the cap.
Sigh Again not by the rules in the book. This was only allowed by a FAQ change, it does not say anywhere in my PHB you can do such a thing. In fact if ya look in the magic chapter it says you may not.
Wotc chose to change that, but it was not in the book.
Just chill dude. I am not saying if it was legal by the RAW or not, I am pointing out that even in 3.5 it was not impossible to run into the +10 cap well before level 20, and it doesn't require you to be in a Monty Haul campaign.
My group started seeing things like this at level 12 because we had an artificer(Eberron) and a cleric in our group. Our barbarian had a +1 keen, flaming greataxe, which is only a +3 weapon. The artificer could add a single temporary special enhancement like brilliant energy to the weapon, then the cleric could cast GMW with prayer beads up on it. That combination made it a +4 keen, flaming greataxe of brilliant energy for about 12 hours.
Sigh Again not by the rules in the book. This was only allowed by a FAQ change, it does not say anywhere in my PHB you can do such a thing. In fact if ya look in the magic chapter it says you may not.Hey Seeker! - we agree as almost always, but I was just curious where in the magic chapter (of 3.5 PHB you mean yes?) it says this.
Also, OP, anyone, what the heck is the "over 9000!" in the thread title? I just don't get it.
I'm referring to the ability of a paladin to boost their "power level" with Divine Bond to ridiculous levels.
Sorry meant DMG...
Over 9000 is a internet meme to Dragon ball z, there is a line where some one says it's over 9000!" and someone else says "Over 9000!" and so on
Got it, thanks! :)
Any chance you'll make it to PaizoCon?
Divine Bond + GMW + +10 magic weapon = +20 total enhancements (even if temporarily). Seems a bit much to me.
I have no problem with the +10 total enhancements. And it actually gives me a neat idea for a paladin with divine bond and the improvised weapon feats.
I can see the similar issue with Arcane Archer, but I agree with a previous poster who said it just allows the archer to spend their hard-earned gold elsewhere. We have yet to have anybody make up an arcane archer, but I'm hopeful that someday somebody will.
Divine Bond + GMW + +10 magic weapon = +20 total enhancements (even if temporarily). Seems a bit much to me.
I have no problem with the +10 total enhancements. And it actually gives me a neat idea for a paladin with divine bond and the improvised weapon feats.
I can see the similar issue with Arcane Archer, but I agree with a previous poster who said it just allows the archer to spend their hard-earned gold elsewhere. We have yet to have anybody make up an arcane archer, but I'm hopeful that someday somebody will.
Considering the paladin would have to be level 20, and they would have to get the greater magic weapon cast by a cleric, wizard, or sorcerer of their level to make it a +5(paladin's cast at level -3, so a level 20 pally's GMW is only +4). I don' really see a problem with the pally having a +20 weapon for 20 minutes.
Besides the damn thing would glow like the sun, and is begging for the bad guys to disintegrate or sunder it. Big heavy hitting bad guy + evil wizard casting greater magic weapon + adamantite weapon = +10 weapon down the tubes and the paladin can't use divine bond for 30 days.
GMW lasts hour per level.
GMW lasts hour per level.
divine Bond does not. so, the +20 won't last for hours.
Divine Bond + GMW + +10 magic weapon = +20 total enhancements (even if temporarily). Seems a bit much to me.
Could you break that down/clarify it for me a little bit more? I don't see how you are getting +20.
Divine Bond + GMW + +10 magic weapon = +20 total enhancements (even if temporarily). Seems a bit much to me.Could you break that down/clarify it for me a little bit more? I don't see how you are getting +20.
+10 magic item. A +1 magic weapon with +9 worth of other bonuses.
Cast a level 20 GMW on it. The +1 and +5 dont stack, so the weapon only gains +4 worth of enhancement bonuses.
Level 20 pally's diving bond allows you to ad +6 worth of enhancements.
+10 +4 +6 = +20.
Of course based on the other thread's archery math.
+10 bow, a +1 bow with +9 worth of enhancements.
+10 arrow, a +1 arrow with +9 worth of enhancements.
Cast Keen Spell on the arrow, which gives it the keen effect without actually adding an enhancement bonus.
level 20 GMW on the arrow making it +5 with the effect of +10 worth of enhancements.
Use Divine bond on the bow, making it +1 with +15 worth of enhancements.
Shoot arrow from bow, the bow confers the effects on the arrow, making the shot act like a +5 arrow with +25 worth of special properties.
GMW lasts hour per level.divine Bond does not. so, the +20 won't last for hours.
Touche sales man. Remember they can use it 4 times a day though too!
Sorry meant DMG...
Over 9000 is a internet meme to Dragon ball z, there is a line where some one says it's over 9000!" and someone else says "Over 9000!" and so onGot it, thanks! :)
Any chance you'll make it to PaizoCon?
Nope, thats way on the other coast and I have this issues of staying broke. Sigh I can't even make gencon and it's just a 5 hour drive...one day maybe but sadly not soon
I prefer the idea of a Paladin being attacked in his home, and using household items to defeat evil.
SPORK OF HOLY, DEMON-BANE, SMITING!
"SPOOOORRRRRKKK!!!"
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Wait... Pillow..of... Dooom...
Just wait until you beat the succubus to death with your holy merciful +3 Sausage.