Hi. I have been playing a long time but it has been a while since I live in an isolated community. I have recently started a gaming group at mhy school and my students have shown a great deal of enthusiasm. Characters are almost finished and we should start playing this week. I was just wondering if anyone else is running a game at their school and if so what rules/tweaks they are using.
Some stats:
-there are nine players from ages of 12-17.
-none have tabletop RPG experience
- some are familiar with WOW, runescape, Dragon Age.
- 7 males , 2 females
- Races chosen: 1 dwarf, 2 haflings, 1 elf, 2 humans, 3 half-orcs.
- Classes chosen: Barbarian 3, 1 cleric, 1 druid, 1 rogue, 3 fighters.
i would very much like to keep their interest so I am thinking I need procedures that keep the game flowing at a quick pace (we only have 1 two hour block to play each week) and so that everyone feels included.
thanks.
Mr. Fishy would suggest combat heavy games the first few sessions. Role playing in a group that size would be difficult in a 2 hour block. Mr. Fishy a game for a larger group of new player and he had them protect a walled village from raiders. The combat classes killed with glee, the casters can cast support magic and protect villagers and the rogue can sneak att any one climbing the wall. The heavy combat should keep them enaged if you keep em coming. If the tide turns againist the group have the raider brakeoff to regroup. Video gamers tend to wait instant action.
Mr. Fishy would introduce role playing later as a add on to those interested. Some of Mr. Fishy group loves talking to NPC's and learning about the world. But other members of the group keep an accurate kill count. So try a few things and most importantly ask the players what they liked and see if you can pick out the role players from the combat junkies.
Ones not better or worse they're just different. Encourage role playing between characters before and after the game vie emails. Some people aren't comfortable with role playing in front of other people.
Good Luck, and don't take it personally if some of the group drop out.
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Keep the game flowing.
Take of questions outside of the game (email everyone so they stay involved.) Not everyone will voice their questions because they don't want to look 'stupid' but they will have them. Have them write their questions down and give them to you after the game, then answer them for everyone via email or give a 'Q&A Round-up' in the first few minutes of your time block.
Tell them things will go faster, the party will accomplish more, as everyone gets more familiar with the rules. Be patient in the beginning.
Are characters created already? If not, that might be the first two sessions.
Give the players options in the beginning so they get to know what they can do. "You can attack the guy from here or you can move behind the creature to make it easier for 'bob' to hit him on his turn." "You can cast a fireball now or try a lightning bolt next turn after you move closer."
I have 9 players currently, down from 14, and none played PFRPG and 1/3 never played Tabletop RPGs before. 4 are brand new to table top RPGs. These are things that I do and they work for me. YMMV.
Good advice, Mr. Fishy also suggest a cheat sheet.
thanks. I have been creating characters with the group simultaneously via powerpoint presentation and when that is done I will start a game. I am thinking that it would be easier to design my own adventures b/c most written ones are for 4-6 players and I would have to adapt them anyway.
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those are some tough constraints. 3.5/PF combat is generally regarded as pretty laborious (but fun!), and running a party of 9 people in 2 hours means that you'll probably only get 1-2 combats done per session. make sure you make the combats challenging because if it is "all over" in the first round, and your last two people in the initiative count don't get a chance to go, it is going to be a lot of thumb twittling for them...
there's a good gnome stew article 5 Ways to deal with a too large party.
thanks for the article. I do use a laptop and a digital projector. I am going to utilize to other laptops the students can bring for the use of pdfs that I have; it would make advancing characters and other things a little easier from time to time.
I like the epic idea. Since so many are nature/barbarian types I am toying with the idea of using tribes from the Storval Plateau and have something major going on there. Inter-tribe warfare, Belkzen raiders, bulettes, dragons, dark riders from Scarwall...it is all coming together.
I just hope I can maintain their interest week by week. Focusing on each of their characters will be key. So, if I can find an objective for each character to meet each weekk which impacts the game, that they feel important, I think that would be good.
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there are already some good posts here but here is mine
I am currently teaching my fiancee PFRPG as she has no exposure to any rpg before this - problems she faces constantly -
overwhelmed by what is happening in game
overwhelmed by the amount of rules
feeling lost since everyone else is experienced gamers
you dont have the last problem but will face the other 2
I ask her during the game if she has any problems & occasionally she says yes - this is not possible for you with so many players but try to indentify those players that look lost & help/deal with them after the game
I also found that after the game I went through what we did as a group & why then pointed out things she could have done or done differently then answer her questions - like a debrief & she finds this helps
overwhelmed by the rules - I found this to be a real problem as she gets dicouraged by the amount of rules - I just impress on her the fact that I have been playing for over 20 years & still need to look up a rule or learn something new which is normal & I dont expect her to learn them all quickly or at all - keep this in mind when dealing with your players
I also read you have a powerpoint used for showing how to make characters ? if it is reasonable could you post it somewhere that I could download it as I am looking at starting a group of players who are a combined group of newbies & experienced gamers but not in PFRPG & this might help me greatly
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Have one or two players each week "rest" their characters and help you on your side of the screen. Rotate the ADM every week. This is an opportunity to show that Dungeonmastering is just as fun as playing, and with 7-8 players left over to play you'll need the help managing monster hit points, tactics and environmental stuff.
I find when trying to teach a new group rules, and the art of role-playing, there are a few useful tips;
- Make it fun. Throw people against iconic monsters and foes, ones that have a lot of personality. Throw your heart into hamming it up; have them taunt, make mistakes, be in interesting locales for the fight. Some people treat d20 like a tactical simulator (which is good once you have the rules down), but this isn't how to hook new players.
- Phase in rules. Start with the basic combat options. Have the players have spell cards, or a sheet with the spells written out and ready to go. Plug in several new practical options each session to help teach.
- Test game. Every time I get a new game, I run a "test campaign" to learn the rules. The players know it's a short, concentrated campaign to figure out the rules and have some fun. If everyone knows the point is to learn, not make the "epic game", they will actually be in the mindset to learn and forgive mistakes when they happen.
- Be merciful but consistent. As a GM, it's easy to fault players for bad tactics. Worse yet, it's easy to go on about "bad tactics" when something bad happens. Save it for after game, or email debriefings. Try not to change rulings in play, and if you do be clear you screwed up. Treat young and old the same way, and don't favour the fairer sex even if they're cute.
Great suggestions. I am planning to try some assistants for certain aspects of the combat/encounters to help move them along faster.
Once they have had some experience, I will see if any wish to help as junior DM, but I doubt it.
I completely argee with the overwhelmed-by-rules observation. Using the overhead, I have given summaries so far in terms of rules for character creation, so I will continue that for combat, using skills etc. Certain rules (like terrain,magic item building, etc.), I will hold in reserve.
They are a visual group and as many have said; short attention spans. I am designing some 'practice' adventures scenarios around what miniatures/maps I have and can place on a table or as an image on the projector.
Does any one use a smartboard in any of their games? I would like to start using it for ours since this is a 'school activity'. It would be nice to know if anyone else has had the opportunity to try that device.
Of course, this is all conditional. They may collectively decide the stop next week. I plan to help them finish their first characters during the week so we can start right on Friday.
One big stumbling block I noticed last time was alignments. they don't have the background to distinguish between the subtleties of good and evil, law and chaos. So I was thinking of just summing alignments in those four terms to help simplify things. Has anyone else had to do this?
Thanks again for the suggestions.
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Throughout college, I've tried to attract more friends to the hobby, and while I'm thankful I've never had 9 people, I find brand-new players to be more fun sometimes than experienced ones. This is my best advice.
Make up rules on the fly. One thing I've learned about introducing new players to the game is that if they take to the idea of the game and are imaginative (which I hope so, for your sake!), they will come up with the most rules-defying actions and solutions. Of course you'll want to familiarize yourself with the particular rules for anything you think might come up (drowning, holding someone underwater, if there's an enormous pool of water, for example), but you can't think of everything. And they are probably going to want to try out some cinematic moves. Flat out denial tends to make people mad (however impossible their action might be), so I usually try to meet them halfway ("Sliding down the stairs on a shield will help you get down the stairs faster, but since I don't think you have practiced that, you'll take a -4 penalty on the shot.") Since taking out the rulebook constantly will really shut your game down, don't be afraid to just make up an arbitrary roll. If I am really stumped, sometimes I'll just say, "I think you have a 60% chance of success. Roll a die." Anything to avoid stalling combat while I look up a rule. Since they are new players, it could be good if between sessions you look it up and then send out an e-mail ("Remember that move Bob tried last week? Well, in the future, this is how we'll do it..."). That is my 2 cp, anyway.
Good luck, and I hope you all have fun!
thanks. good ideas. i am finishing characters on wed. start trying them on friday.
Don't worry about alignment. Give the players a common backstory element, something broad enough that they can choose whatever character type they want. Their common background will help them gel as a team.
With such a large group, I would also break them down into two separate games. Run different games so the most zealous players can be in both groups.
Key Points: Good descriptions, descriptions over mechanics, visuals/pictures to back up (sometimes instead of) descriptions, memorable enemies (visually, battle cry, combat curse - PG-13), memorable "Heroic!" combat methods (riding shield down stairs, swinging from chandelier, etc.), as the DM Ham It UP!, FUN.
- People, especially most younger people, are heavily visual; always keep that in mind. Write up several, short but mind's eye-stimulating (and easily understood) descriptions of events that are happening/planned to happen. Make up several especially good ones for enemies, scenes and monsters that you want to stand out.
- With all of these, use Pathfinder artwork and other fantasy artwork to back up your verbal descriptions and narratives with visual references. Keep these images up on an overhead or computer screen/monitor so the players and keep referring to them - this will help them stay in tune with the encounter and keep excited about the game. !!Visual works!!
- Consider the possibility of rotating images as the encounter progresses and new enemies and situations evolve.
- Also helpful is to jot down several descriptive "combat throes" blurbs to use to describe the flow of combat - i.e., "The brutish, one-tusked, foul smelling, puke-skinned orc grunts with the effort as he tries to remove your fair head from your shoulders as he swings his rusting and chipped battle axe at your neck..." ...the DM's dice roll...
- Set the stage early for their role-playing education; always try to describe your actions instead of just "I attack." and dice roll... Act/ham it up! Use different voices, even if stolen from obvious sources - Scottish-sounding dwarf, Yoda speech pattern, etc. Build it, and they will come - and follow and mimic. :-)
- Perhaps allow the first two encounters/combat's PC deaths to not "count" that way any deaths can be negated as they learn the rules and flow of the game (raise dead with no penalties, special, one-time, free of charge). Let them know this only applies for these two "learning sessions".
- And what these other great people have suggested, especially session recaps, Q&A and pats on the back for ALL players in the game.
Have FUN. Let us know how it goes.
<snip> ... One big stumbling block I noticed last time was alignments. ... <snip>
Don't worry about alignments beyond "Good and Evil" - and perhaps Neutral. Leave it at that for now - for the PCs. YOU, the DM, play the alignment of the NPCs, good ones and bad ones. Let the players slowly and at their own pace, begin to pick up on the subtleties of the various alignment spokes as they see them role-played/presented to them by the NPCs/DM (may not be the only interpretation though...).
Later, if some of the players want to incorporate an actual game alignment into their character, encourage it and help them out with suggestions.
You start the picture by supplying the "broad stroke" of alignment but let them paint the "detailed strokes" of specific alignments on their own as their "artistic" understanding of that section of the game gallery grows.
(I would even suggest, for now, pressing the issue so only Good and Neutral alignments are chosen for the first few adventures.)
- V
Main suggestion for this is:
Prepare the encounter for the session ahead of time with everything taken care of.
1. Encounter description.
2. Number of creatures/NPC's encountered with all stats, hp, available powers/spells, equipment and wealth. Make sure you know the spells abilities before hand to avoid having to look them up again. Cut/paste into a cheat sheet for reference if able.
3. Layout or encounter location. (Terrain, buildings, trails, streets etc.)
4. Specifics if you use them of the: time, weather, visibility, traps DC's for detecting these and any one of 3-6 standard responses by the encounter created (not players responses).
5. Results if leaders or smart creatures get low on HP. This could be any of 1-6 ideas if you wanted to continue with a recurring "Bad" guy/leader creature.
6. Separate character cards (I use 3"x5" index cards) of each character with general info (Attributes, name, name of player, levels, class(s), alignment, AC, HP and any major equipment they may be constantly carrying to remind me what the character looks like. I use these for initiative order and quick character reference. I also have common skills on them of Perception, Stealth, and maybe a couple "Knowledge".
This procedure has allowed me to run 1-2 encounters every session where we play only for a couple of hours with up to 12 characters (And I have players playing over Skype from California to Iraq).
If you throw role-playing into the mix it drops it down to a single decent encounter, but memorable.
And keep a log of each session to remember what happened, encounter results and possible outcomes if NPC's get away. Amazing what will crop back up a year later when everyone has forgotten the bullywug with the great-axe that was the only survivor of a massacre that got away. :)
I used to work in a gaming store and we ran intro sessions for kids and from this experience I would advise:
1) Keep it simple - make it as easy as you can. No complicated rules (eg grapples) and intensive puzzles/challenges. As the above poster typed - keep it flowing. Make adventure hooks obvious to start with. Actually not hooks at all, just big signs saying "OVER HERE!". Dungeon runs are great for this. Although its simple make it feel epic.
2) Voices. Be animated and do voices. Have the odd silly npc. Make it entertaining. I really can't emphasise how much voices are important - particularly funny voices. Never ever be monotoned. Its their first run so tap into all the cliches and ham it up. Have fun with it.
3) Action, action, action - rolling dice is fun. Start each session with some sort of combat early on. Gets the focused and tuned into the game. Works well with adult players too....
4) Make it cinematic - rather than just say you kill it, say "with a thunderous strike you sent its head flying off its shoulders!". Kind of ties into number 2 in that you make it entertaining. Can't emphasise this enough as well.
5) Talk up their characters - constantly. Always refer to their characters in positive terms. For example we'd always say the massive hulking barbarian and the kid playing the barbarian would always love it. Use their character names and add the cheesy nickname. "Orax skullsplitter its your turn, who suffers your axe this round".
6) Avoid stuff that has SR, high ACs and high save DCs. Kids love winning and hate failing. As an adult I hate it when my spells fizzle, attacks swing wide and I wear a fireball right in the face and for kids its shattering +10. The more kids feel like their winning the more they want to keep winning and the more they love it. Later as they get into the game throw the odd opponent like that at them, but for the start send in the easy beats. If you ever gain the upper hand be cocky and rub it in the faces in a fun way. Set yourself up to be taken down a peg. They eat this up.
7) Magic items with a bit of uniqueness and razzamatazz. Give one kid a flaming sword and no one else. Maybe another has a chill sword and you refer to them as the frostburn combination. Talk them up. With 6 warriors its going to be pretty much impossible to be unique with the weapons while retaining some flair, but I guess theres 4 energy types, bane weapons, alignment based weapons out there. Make it a mixed bag. Maybe one of them gets the ability to lightening bolt once per day instead of an energy weapon. Dunno, just make sure each warrior has a special weapon that is cool and no one else has. Cool swords always come from cool bad guys and never in piles of loot.
8) Forget alignments. Let them just be themselves and go with that. Kids won't grasp the alignments when they already have a book full of mechanics to deal with. This ties into number one.
9) Use mini's. A must. Each kid picks his/her own and no one else has the same. Being cool and unique is a must so avoid dull looking mini's. The above posters advice about terrain is a good one.
I'd advise somehow breaking the group down to three - five people groups. Kids love the spotlight and its hard to do that for each player when there are 9 of them. This can be some of the most fun you can have as a DM, because you can just ham it up and tap into all the cliches without a player groaning. All the best. Hope you all have fun.
I will be using some of these ideas, but not until exams are over. I got over zealous in arranging a game. Students are still interested though.
An excellent starting combat may be in RotRL, Burnt Offerings. The goblins are at once a hoot and sinister if played right. Bring in all the singing, the mishaps, and the dogs, and they will love it. I added 4 teens to my regular group for this campaign. They left that night singing "We be goblins, you be food!" in high screechy voices.
I have had two games so far. I have used several ideas mentioned here (streamlining rules, high action, etc). I have many accessories (miniatures, maps, cards,music) and the students respond well to the use of these. The group has been cut down (6 now; junior high).
I find that because I wish to use the minis and maps and such, it is easier to make up my own material from scratch than to use adventures. I still plan to take elements from adventures I do have, but I cannot use them as is with the limited materials that I have.
Thanks everyone for your comments.
Sorry if anyone posted this already, alot of reading. But you could break the group down into two groups and playtest seperately, so your not so overwhelmed with work. This will also give you insight into what each player wants and give you more one on one time, if needed, to teach. Then once everyone is comfortable with the rules and playing, combine the groups and get the main story going. You can even say that the teaching sessions are part of their background and so on.
Something else you can do after the PC's are comfortable with the game is place time limits on players turns, decision making only. I had a game where there were like 13 people. Everyone got 15 seconds to announce what they are doing. The reason for this method was because there are way to many people to sit and think about what you are doingon your turn. Think about it before its your turn and several alternatives for when it is your turn. Its agreat practice and has saved tonsof time. As far as the method to keep time, its up to the GM you could guess about how long its been or simply look at your watch.
I hope some of this helped. I know large groups and new people can be a pain, but its managable and can be rewarding.
Ah, this brings memories of the first game I ran when I entered university, where 6 of the 8 players had never even seen a roleplaying game.
Things I learned from that experience that maybe you could use:
-Give them a list of character concepts they can build around. Not pre-built characters, since I believe making the sheet by themselves is a good exercise to get a first gaze of the rules (and nowadays it is much more practical, since you can have a few notebooks with the SRD open in addition to the manuals, making the process much faster). The idea here is that you give them guidelines of the kinds of characters you would like to see (in order to avoid people who have never played before coming up with creative but ultimately unplayable ideas). If you know them well, you can probably come up with concepts that will immediately call each one's attention ("This guy often speaks of pirates, so I'll put a swashbuckler-like option").
-Only explain the rules when strictly necessary. At the start of the game there is no need for them to know how Counterspelling works nor that Adamatium breaks DR. Have them on a need-to-know basis, so they don't get confused with things that probably they are never going to see anyway, at least not for now.
-Have them come up with relationships between the characters before starting the campaign. I do this even with my experienced players (unless the campaign we're playing specifically calls for another method), since it helps jumpstart the group from the beginning and gives you and the players a lot of fertile ground for storymaking. What I usually do is ask each player to explain a relationship with two other characters, trying to make everyone connected. Since they are starting, it's a good idea for these relationships to be on the bright side and fostering cooperation. Let them be creative (within reasonable boundaries, of course), since it will make them more attached to both their own and other's characters.
-Use clichés. Some people scoff at them because they think of them as bad things, but I see clichés as "tried & true". As long as you don't make them sound like a carbon copy of a bad early 90's movie, they can really help everyone get a quick grasp of the story. Gran meta-arcs involving the gods, the Deep Ethereal, a mysterious iron sphere floating in the sky and seven left shoes can be great for seasoned players, but for new people that are still scouting the ground to see what the game is really about, it's best to use well-known bait. Furthermore, it will help those potentially less creative players who tend to have difficulties imagining things clearly have an easier and more rewarding time ("Ohh, so the bad guy looks like Dolph Lundgren on mail armour. Got it. I see why the goblins are scared of him now").
-Share the spotlight. Seasoned players can often stand when the circumstances force them to sit on the back for large parts of a session, but with new players you want to give them the best first impression possible. Try to include at least one instance in which every player will get a chance to shine, altering the module on the run if you see someone lagging behind.
Those are some advices that have worked for me. Best of hopes for your group, Patrick. It is always good to see people dragging fresh blood into the clutches of our hobby.