A Study of the Summoner


Round 2: Summoner and Witch


While I have had time to playtest the summoner just as yet I have had time to study and play around with possibilities of the Summoner class. I have also been talking with others in other summoner threads to get an idea of problems and solutions. So I have some ideas that I would like to share.

Spells
After taking a look at the list I noticed that there were no utility type spells like summoning food or water. In some worlds that is a huge help. Also spells that provide temporary shelter would seem to fit the class as well. The point I am making is that the summoner should be able to help outside of combat just as well as inside.

The Summon Monster Ability, Eidolons and banishment.

Now I understand and agree about only having one summoned creature via the ability and one summoned Eidolon out at any one time because to prevent spamming. However, after taking a look at the fact the the Eidolon which is a intrinsic part of the class can be ripped away with a banishment spell is a bit harsh when in combination with only having one summons at anyone time. Although steps can be taken to avoid having a eidolon from being banished it is still bound to happen. I also find it hard to understand why a Summoner class could not spam summoned creatures while Wizards, Clerics, Druids, and even Rangers can spam summoned creatures as long as they have the spells prepared.

Also if a Eidolon is banished then it takes a full minute or 10 rounds uninterrupted to bring it back. Combat wise that really hurts the summoner.

With this in mind I suggest the reason that a summoner can only have one summoned creature in addition to his eidolon is because of some kind of energy well or something that emanates from the eidolon that prevents the spam of summoning. So if the eidolon is not present then the summoner can summon as many creatures as he can to fill in the void, but only when the eidolon is not present.

Eidolon Evolution

The biggest problem that I see that is unbalancing is the tentacle evolution which is cheap to buy and allows for a whole lot of attacks. While they might not be hard hitting they are enough to bring down any foe in combat rather easily. The same is true with extra limbs. My idea to solve this would to build in a restriction that before you can take an extra limb or tentacle another non limb/tentacle evolution must be taken first. This would reduce the crazy amount of attacks an eidolon can aquire and balance the creature out with other abilities.

Now these evolutions are suggestion from what I have heard in other threads and some of my own.

1 point Extra Head: Similar to extra limbs but the only bonus it provides is that like the Ettin it is near impossible to surprise it. However, this would allow the bite evolution to gain an extra bite attack.

Now after taking a look at the skilled evolution I notice that was basically the only non-combat evolution available. I also got the impression that the eidolon being very similar to the old AD&D "The HOARD" from the abyss, did they every bring that back? Anyways my thoughts are why must these summoned creatures be monstrosities that are purely combat oriented. Why can't they have more utility or support ability.

Evolution Aura of Beauty: The eidolon is of un-comely beauty giving the summoner and his allies a +4 bonus to social situation like in diplomacy. This inspiring ability also provide a +2 moral bonus against magical fear attacks for their saving throws. This aura has a 30 foot radius and only provides the +2 bonus to allies if they can see the eidolon. This would also grant the summoner a +4 bonus to his Leadership Rating if he took the feat.

Aura of Healing: The eidolon casts a 30 foot radius aura that gives all allies fast healing. Each ally effected heals 1 HP each round. This ability can be taken again for additional X amount of points.

Aura of the Protector: The eidolon casts a 30 foot radius aura that gives all allies a +2 evade bonus to their AC for as long as they are within the are of effect.

I didn't include any Evo point costs because I don't know how these would effect the balance.

These are just some ideas I had plus my reflections about how the current Summoner Class is at now.

Scarab Sages

correction - the summoner can spam summons with spells just like wizards & druids
but he can not spam summons with his spell like ability
the correction was limiting summons with the SLA not with spells


Ceefood wrote:

correction - the summoner can spam summons with spells just like wizards & druids

but he can not spam summons with his spell like ability
the correction was limiting summons with the SLA not with spells

Actually was wondering about that. Then that is not to bad however what I suggested about if the eidolon is banished then I think at the point being able to to spam might be a good idea but only if the eidolon is not present.


Ceefood wrote:

correction - the summoner can spam summons with spells just like wizards & druids

but he can not spam summons with his spell like ability
the correction was limiting summons with the SLA not with spells

Well a summoner can spam with his spells, but only if he takes it as a spell known, and even then he only gets as many of them as a bard would.

All in all not a great option for a summoner.

But then again I don't see the problem with 'spamming' summons myself. Cast a prot from evil spell or the like and ignore them...

-James


Not everyone is a spell caster...not every encounter should have a spell caster...not every spell caster should have protection from...spammed summons bogs the game down ALOT. Normally this isn't a problem (in my games anyways) as most people who play wizards/druids have seen just how slow a game will get if the summon a horde of little ankle biters. On the other hand, I have seen a few new players see the opportunity (and not realize how anoying it is for everyone else involved in the game) and their eyes light up...


Fraust wrote:
Not everyone is a spell caster...not every encounter should have a spell caster...not every spell caster should have protection from...spammed summons bogs the game down ALOT. Normally this isn't a problem (in my games anyways) as most people who play wizards/druids have seen just how slow a game will get if the summon a horde of little ankle biters. On the other hand, I have seen a few new players see the opportunity (and not realize how anoying it is for everyone else involved in the game) and their eyes light up...

That, and a mass of summons is seldom that effective. Sure if you can call them all out and lay out a battle plan ahead of time they can kick butt and work as a solid unit, but usually any more than two summons at a time is just unnecessary clutter that doesn't contribute a great deal to the battle at hand.


Actually, the most effective use of the horde o anklebiters is to give flanking bonuses to the other melee(including the Big E), and shield the squishies from the enemy melee.


Fraust wrote:
Not everyone is a spell caster...not every encounter should have a spell caster...not every spell caster should have protection from...spammed summons bogs the game down ALOT. Normally this isn't a problem (in my games anyways) as most people who play wizards/druids have seen just how slow a game will get if the summon a horde of little ankle biters. On the other hand, I have seen a few new players see the opportunity (and not realize how anoying it is for everyone else involved in the game) and their eyes light up...

Well that's a player issue, not a mechanics issue.

I've seen players take a long time with their turns before. It does not have to do with whether or not they were summoning, however. It was how they approached the game, how prepared they were, how aware they were, and how indecisive they were.

Summoning can indeed bog down combats, but not if run properly. Control spells can also do this. Likewise so can archers, or anyone else.

As a fellow player, or as the DM, you just have to step in and talk with them about the speed of their rounds. You seem to imply that the only solution is not to play, and I disagree with that.

-James


Well, I ment to imply that a group of experienced players who are there for the mutual enjoyment of the group shouldn't have a problem...but if you're showing this class to someone new to the game, or who isn't known to be a team oriented player...well, you're likely going to have some issues.

Impications aside...my point is that spamming summon spells bogs things down. I don't care how on the ball someone thinks they are, or tells me they are, adding ten or so creatures to the game will slow things down (at least up until the point an area affect spell wipes them all out). Some groups might be better prepared for this sort of thing, and it will slow them down less than other groups, but it is a hang up.

I'm not suggesting the summoner is a crap class, and anyone who plays one sucks because spamming summons slows things down. The class appeals to me quite a bit, and the only thing I don't like about it is the emphasis on the eidolon, though that's a topic for another day. What I would like to see is more emphasis on the summon monster aspect by increasing the quality of the summons, rather than the quantity.

If a summoner could summon enhanced monsters with his summon monster x ability, I think it would be just super. Yes, adding templates/adjusting monsters slows the game down, but you can do this before the game and get it out of the way. Where you can only make things go so much less slow when you just add in a large number of creatures.

As many have pointed out, the monsters on the summon monster lists are a little underwhelming at times. There is a strong argument to this, but not everyone is of the same tactical abilities. Something simple to up the abilities of the monsters would benefit everyone.

I like the idea of the increased duration, though I'm not one of those people who takes every opportunity to complain about how without it the class is completely unapealing. The faster casting time...eh, it gave the class ability a little something extra, over other casters just using the spell...but again, I think the outcry over it's removal sounds an aweful lot like spoild children wanting their TV back.

Reinstating the longer duration, or allowing some option to increase the duration (one minute per caster level honestly isn't going to open up all these out of combat options people keep thinking it will) and adding in something to increase the abilities of the summoned monsters (only through the class ability, not if they select and then cast the spell), while downgrading the eidolon a bit would make the class perfect in my mind.

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