I had a module I originally wrote for D&D that contain mind flayers as the bad guys. I want to convert it to Pathfinder RPG, free of all WOTC IP. What would be a good Pathfinder replacement for the illithid?
Some qualities I want to have:
* Weird, nightmarish, alien, Lovecraftian-esque
* Not undead.
* Not Demons, Devils, or Yugoloths.
* Preferably outsiders, aberrations, or monstrous humanoids.
* Super-intelligent, arrogant
* Small to Medium-sized
* Innate abilities (psionic-like powers, domination, mind blast, etc)
* Do creepy things with humanoids (eat their brains, etc)
* Hidden, rarely seen, or extra-planar
* Independent society (entire cities, culture, etc)
* About CR 7-9 for the base creature, but able to take class levels
Any ideas? I prefer suggestions of existing monsters, but if you have any original creations, I'd like to see them.
Someone did a Thought Ripper, which is deliberately very similar. I don't have a link though.
Denziens of Leng. However, I forget where they're located. Somenoe else more knowledgable should hopefully follow through when they come across this thread.
Here is the one I thought but its CR is a little high
Go to http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-lists-and-details/-n/neothelid.
Denziens of Leng. However, I forget where they're located. Somenoe else more knowledgable should hopefully follow through when they come across this thread.Pathfinder #6: The Spires of Xin-Shalast was their first pf appearance.
...and Tess tosses in the 3-pointer from the perimeter. Thanks! :D
Guys, check this out. This post was put up a long time ago...as the archived thread details.
Editors have posted before saying that the Intellect Devourer and the Seleuthi(sp?) are to replace the Mind Flayers.
As far as the official byline is, Callous Jack is correct.
Aboleth's Should also work pretty well
Where are these "Seleuthi" I cant find them
Here is the one I thought but its CR is a little high
Go to http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-lists-and-details/-n/neothelid.
Fixed the link for you :)
Where are these "Seleuthi" I cant find themMan, I completely botched the spelling. It's seugathi, they are in Pathfinder Chronicles: Into the Darklands.
If I remember correctly, "Into the Darklands" also has a section on the intellect devourer settlements in the darklands.
The seugathi was another one of the creatures i was thinking about
Where are these "Seleuthi" I cant find them
I'm interested too. What are these seugathi like?
Denizens of Leng +1.
You'd think that the Neh-Thalggu (Brain Collectors) and Uvuudaum from the Epic Level Handbook would also make for decent Illithid replacements. They'd need to be toned down significantly for non-epic level play but they both fit the lovecraftian creature from beyond role. The Neh-Thalggu even has an extract brains ability which is very evocative of the mind flayer.
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We need them to do one thing really well: Be scary.
I once had a mindflayer turn to a character and threaten his wife, who was at home sleeping, once it was clear the 'flayer had no way out.
"Your wife, Chasra, I believe she is asleep right now at your home, far away. Imagine the chaos should my minions in your village hear of my death. Surely they would deal with it by sacrificing ones close to you in exchange... How sad."
Unfortunately, the PC made his sense motive and told the barbarian to kill him anyway.
So basically I would ask for a replacement who can lie to save themselves from a low wis Rogue.
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I converted mind flayers for my own uses, but in general I agree with the sentiment that they should be replaced with something OGC (I only mention my conversion because you can use it "free of WotC IP" simply by changing the copyrighted names.)
I wasn't aware of the Seugathi - they look pretty cool.
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You'd think that the Neh-Thalggu (Brain Collectors) and Uvuudaum from the Epic Level Handbook would also make for decent Illithid replacements. They'd need to be toned down significantly for non-epic level play but they both fit the lovecraftian creature from beyond role. The Neh-Thalggu even has an extract brains ability which is very evocative of the mind flayer.
The Neh-Thalggu was one of my favorite beasties from the old (not advanced) D&D, it would be cool to rebuild. The epic version could remain as some sort of 'elder brain' of the race, with lower HD versions serving as mobile appendages of the eldest, linked by some sort of hive mind (or independent operators, depending on the fluff desired).
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The Neh-Thalggu was one of my favorite beasties from the old (not advanced) D&D, it would be cool to rebuild. The epic version could remain as some sort of 'elder brain' of the race, with lower HD versions serving as mobile appendages of the eldest, linked by some sort of hive mind (or independent operators, depending on the fluff desired).
I've been thinking this for a while now as well.
Who'd like to see a downsized Brain Collector (a la BECMI)? (I might be able to find some time this weekend for a conversion... 8^)
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Who'd like to see a downsized Brain Collector (a la BECMI)? (I might be able to find some time this weekend for a conversion... 8^)
Me! Ideally, the Brain Collector would not only be able to tap into the arcane abilities (but not divine, strangely, and Brain Collectors tend to kill divine casters out of a general dislike for them) of the brains it has harvested, but also have the ability to tap into their memories as well, which, combined with magic, makes it terrifyingly good at impersonation, as it can absorb someone's brain, and then magically transform to appear as them, for purposes of getting places where it should not otherwise be.
The sneakiest Brain Collectors work as librarians, or even as caretakers in wizard's academies, seeking only the brightest and most promising of students to add to it's collection.
"Chiarscura dropped out? Even left a note about how she couldn't take the pressure, and was returning to her family? Wow, she was doing so well, too, and that new use for prestidigitation that she developed for her final was very impressive! Did anyone talk to her about this? It's strange how she just up and left without talking to anyone..."
Neh-Thallggu with smaller number of brain sacks could represent the minion versions of the species. Maybe low intelligence 3 sack drones, 5 sack "young", 7 sack "adults", 11 sack "masters" and 13 sack "elders".
Spellcasting ability would reflect the number of brain sacks. They'd still get the dimension door ability and incorporeal, but only the more advanced versions would get plane shift and greater teleport.
The neh-thallggu would even trade brains amongst themselves in order to curry favor with elders.
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Some qualities I want to have:
* Weird, nightmarish, alien, Lovecraftian-esque
* Not undead.
* Not Demons, Devils, or Yugoloths.
* Preferably outsiders, aberrations, or monstrous humanoids.
* Super-intelligent, arrogant
* Small to Medium-sized
* Innate abilities (psionic-like powers, domination, mind blast, etc)
* Do creepy things with humanoids (eat their brains, etc)
* Hidden, rarely seen, or extra-planar
* Independent society (entire cities, culture, etc)
* About CR 7-9 for the base creature, but able to take class levels
The ones I could think of/find in the Pathfinder SRD are as follows:
Rakshasa
They are evil spirits cloaked in humanoid form. Shapechangers can bring out some very strange and alien looks if you play it right. The backward fingers is a subtle but still freakish sign. They also tend to eat people.
They have innate abilities, however it kind of boosts their CR up a bit high (10). They also tend to be creatures that invade a society, rather than have one big one of their own.
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Xill
They are outsiders, alien looking, have decent racial Int (15), live in the Ethereal but that doesn't mean they can't have a city underground for your purposes (better yet, the material plane shows an empty city, because they are all on the ethereal! Adds a ghost town touch).
Best yet: they implant their eggs into a humanoid host!. Combine that with paralysis and you have some heavy "Body Modification" and "And I Must Scream" trope to work with.
While they aren't heavy on the innate spells and such, they have Planewalk (which are great for escape and ambush), as well as multiple arms and paralysis.
Best part? They are CR 6, which means you have room if you want a special caste or noble version of the race to have magical powers, simply tack on some sorcerer levels with the appropriate spells to simulate it.
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Doppleganger
While not very powerful (CR 3), they are lacking in innate powers (other than shapechanging), so giving them some magical talent to boost their CR would cover both these areas.
They suffer the same issue as the Rakshasa, however a whole city of them might be interesting.
About the only thing they lack is a creepy thing they do to humanoids.
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Barghest
If you don't mind not having a bunch of the things around, you could get away with maybe a single (or a family?) of Barghest with a cult of goblinoids around it.
They are outsiders, nasty looking (cross a goblin and a wolf, but with "hands" on the front paws.. subtle creepy), and they eat non-evil people to grow and gain power. "Consume" is probably a better word, since they can gobble an entire humanoid in 6 seconds... probably more like a snake than anything else.
They are racially intelligent (Int 14), and have some decent innate abilities. And if you want, you can have it grow from the CR4 to CR7 version.
The only problem being that they are pretty much always solitary.
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Intellect Devourer
As others have said, they are a good replacement between very smart, alien-looking, and creepy factor (they crawl into helpless/dead people, eat their brains, and control the bodies!).
There's even mention of underground cities: (From PRD) "Stories tell of entire cities of these creatures deep underground, where host bodies are worn like clothes to hideous orgies and vile feasts."
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The two that I think work the best are the Xill and the Intellect Devourer.
Both have reason for fully fledged (and unique) cities, as well as being very alien in look-and-feel, and the creepiness factor turned up to 11.
They are both quite equivocal in Intelligence as well (Int 15 and 16, respectively), which is high enough over the average humanoid to make a society that is built on being "super intelligent" (plenty of room for evil scientist attitude stuff).
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Here is something I did a while back. The CR is low for your requirements, but could easily be buffed up a bit.
The tall figure in front of you could be an elf, except for the tentacles that surround it's mouth.
Mind Ripper
CR 6 (2,400 XP)
LE Medium Abberation
Init: +3, Senses: Darkvision 60 ft, Low-light Vision, Perception +1
AC: 19, Touch: 13, Flat footed: 16
(+3 Dex, +6 natural)
hp: 52 (8d8+16)
Fort: +8, Ref: +9, Will: +10
Speed: 30 ft
Melee: shortsword +7 (1d6+1/19-20), tentacles +2 (1d4+1)
Ranged: Masterwork light crossbow +10
Special Attacks: Mind Blast (60 ft cone, Will DC 17 or stunned for 3d4 rounds.)
Sorcerer Spells Known: (CL 6)
3rd (4/day) Fireball
2nd (6/day) False Life, Summon Monster II
1st (7/day) Burning Hands, Charm Person (DC 14), Mage Armor, Summon Monster I
Str 12, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 12, Wisdom 12, Cha 16
Base Atk: +6, CMB: +9, CMD 20
Feats: Agile Maneuvers, Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Eschew Materials, Spell Focus (Evocation)
Skills: Diplomacy +15, Knowledge (Arcana) +12, Spellcraft +12
Languages: Common, Undercommon
Enviroment: Underground
Organization: Solitary, Pair, Coven (3-12)
Treasure: Standard
Drow legends tell of an early tribe that delved too deep into places where even drow fear to go. These drow were captured by the neothelid and experemented on, twisting them in body and mind. The most successful of these experiments became known as mind rippers.
Some say that the neothelids granted the mind rippers a portion of the essence of their own dark maters. For some reason, know only to them, the neothelids turned the mind rippers loose and they now haunt the hidden grottos and dark caverns of the Darklands where they continue experementing on sentient beings as their creators did to them..
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I would love to see more done with the Xill as well.
A Xill was at the top of my list for last years Superstar, had I advanced. I flipped through the MM and looked for beasties that I hadn't seen nearly enough of, and yet had creepy potential.
Xill [snip]
Best part? They are CR 6, which means you have room if you want a special caste or noble version of the race to have magical powers, simply tack on some sorcerer levels with the appropriate spells to simulate it.
A perfect chassis upon which to base a Pathfinder version of the Ethergaunt, IMO.
What about the Phrenic Scourge from "The Iconic Bestiary: Classics of Fantasy".
Guys, check this out. This post was put up a long time ago...as the archived thread details.
Dweller in Darkness +1!
This is a really good write-up. Though I agree with the shadow walk vs plane shift thing.
Plus some minor work would need to be done to Pathfinderize it.
Creative Director
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Intellect Devourers are indeed the preferred "mind flayer replacement" in Golarion. The seugathi work well too, and also work well to replace the umber hulk. Of course, both do additional things beyond the mind flayer and the umber hulk, so that they're not just carbon copies. Carbon copy clones of non-open monsters from WotC stuff hold no interest to me.
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Creative Director
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You'd think that the Neh-Thalggu (Brain Collectors) and Uvuudaum from the Epic Level Handbook would also make for decent Illithid replacements. They'd need to be toned down significantly for non-epic level play but they both fit the lovecraftian creature from beyond role. The Neh-Thalggu even has an extract brains ability which is very evocative of the mind flayer.They're not available for the same reason the 'flayers are not. they're WOTC IP.
Actually, both of those ARE available. They're in the SRD, thanks to having the whole Epic Level handbook being put into the SRD.
There are indeed brain collectors in Golarion, at the very least. We haven't done much with them yet though...
In fact, I'm 99% sure that the brain collector was originally invented for the expert set D&D (as part of X2: Castle Amber) to serve as that version of the game's mind flayer.
Actually, both of those ARE available. They're in the SRD, thanks to having the whole Epic Level handbook being put into the SRD.
There are indeed brain collectors in Golarion, at the very least. We haven't done much with them yet though...
In fact, I'm 99% sure that the brain collector was originally invented for the expert set D&D (as part of X2: Castle Amber) to serve as that version of the game's mind flayer.
I definitely wouldn't mind seeing a slightly toned down Brain Collector showing up in an adventure path sooner or later. Most of the write-up would need to be adjusted for 3.P anyway. As creatures from another dimension they definitely fit the psuedo-lovecraft feel that the illithid captures.
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^^^^ There GOD HAS SPOKEN
Do not blind link to TV Tropes! ;)
Also, don't refer to James as a god- His head will swell up and explode, and:
a) there will be Tyrannosaurus brain everywhere
b) even more books will be delayed
I remember the good old days of AD&D 1st edition when there were both the mind flayers and the intellect devourers. Those were the days.
I like mind flayers, but they got a tad overused there at the end of 3.5.
Out of random curiosity, is the grell non-OGL?
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Creative Director
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I remember the good old days of AD&D 1st edition when there were both the mind flayers and the intellect devourers. Those were the days.
I like mind flayers, but they got a tad overused there at the end of 3.5.
Out of random curiosity, is the grell non-OGL?
The grell is not open content. If you see a monster in 3rd edition's Monster Manual 2 or in the Monsters of Faerun, chances are EXCELLENT that monster is not open content. It COULD be in the public domain from mythology though (such as the case of the peryton or the linnorm or the phoenix), in which case we can build a new version of the monster for Pathfinder (and have). But the actual stats, public domain concept or not, are not open if the monster appeared in either of those two books (with the exception, of course, of the 2 monsters at the end of the MM2 which WotC included as a sort of open content experiment or something).
Anyway, no. Grell is closed.
In fact, I'm 99% sure that the brain collector was originally invented for the expert set D&D (as part of X2: Castle Amber) to serve as that version of the game's mind flayer.Hooray for Castle Amber! One day I'd like to run this at GenCon... perhaps set it in Galt?
Actually, as Castle Amber was a Clark Smith/ Lovecraftian adventure, I always thought the BRain Collector WAS the Mi-Go, just as the Death Demons were Nightgaunts?
A Pathfinderized, toned-down version of the Epic Level Handbook's Brain Collector
CE Medium Aberration (Extraplanar, Incorporeal)
Initiative +6; Senses Darkvision 60 ft; Perception +15
Defense
Armor Class 22, touch 22, flat-footed 13 (+6 Dex, +3 deflection, +3 dodge)
Hit Points 52 hp (8d8+16)
Saves Fort +4, Ref +8, Will +10
Defensive Abilities Incorporeal, SR 19
Offense
Speed 60 ft.
Melee Attack Bite +7 (2d6+6 plus poison), 6 head-tentacles +9 touch (1d3 plus ability damage)
Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks Extract brains, manifest maw, poison, spells
Statistics
Abilities Str --, Dex 22, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 19, Cha 16
Base Attack +5 CMB +11 CMD 27
Feats Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Eschew Materials
Skills Diplomacy +14, Knowledge (arcana) =14, Knowledge (the planes) +14, Perception +15, Sense Motive +15, Stealth +17, Spellcraft +14
A creature whose brain has been harvested by a brain collector cannot be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected while the brain is in the creature, because the collector preserves and draws upon the soul and basic personality of the creature for as long as it retains the brain. Neh-thalggus’ own language is a silent sign language “spoken” with their writhing head-tentacles. They can also communicate telepathically with any creature that has a language within 100 feet.
Neh-Thalggu poison (Ex) Bite—injury; save Fort DC 16, frequency 1/round for 6 rounds, effect 1d4 Con, cure 2 consecutive saves
Head-Tentacles (Ex)
The long, whiplike tentacles that frame either side of a brain collector’s face can deliver a dangerous touch attack that, if successful, causes the target to dehydrate and wither. In addition, each successful tentacle attack deals 1 point of Strength, 1 point of Dexterity, and 1 point of Constitution damage. It can bring all six tentacles to bear on a single target facing it or divide its attacks against any number of targets that it threatens.
Extract Brains (Sp)
Once every 1d4 rounds, as a full-round action, a brain collector can extract the brain from a target creature in line of sight. This attack is psionic in nature and can be blocked by a dimensional anchor currently in force on the target. The target gets a Will save (DC 17) to resist the extraction. The save DC is Intelligence-based. If the save fails, his or her brain is drawn out intact through the skull by extradimensional means and sucked up by the brain collector, lodging in an unused storage sac above and behind its eyes. If the save succeeds, he or she takes 4d6 points of damage and is stunned for 1 round. A brain collector prefers to absorb brains of high-level arcane spellcasters but is fully capable of extracting those of other foes as a highly effective attack. When encountered, assume a neh-thalggu has a full retinue of four stolen brains. Each brain less than the full four bestows one negative level on the neh-thalggu (though these never convert to actual level loss), which is a powerful incentive for the creature to always keep its brain-sacs filled.
Spells (Sp)
A fully grown brain collector can cast arcane spells as a 4th-level sorcerer (one level of spell-casting ability per brain).
Manifest Maw
Though it is an incorporeal creature, a neh-thalggu can manifest its mouth in corporeal form as a standard action. While so manifested, the mouth can deliver bite attacks against corporeal creatures or pick up objects. The mouth bites as if it had Str 18.
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Okay, I did my conversion anyway, and it's a bit different than the above, so I'm posting it anyway. 8^)
I started out by just converting the 3.5 epic version. (If just 'cause I'm probably going to eventually anyway.)
Then I reduced its hit dice, size, ability scores, special abilities, etc. until it looked pretty good for a non-epic challenge. (Taking inspiration from its historic [BECMI] presentation. Hence no incorporeal, etc.) I estimated the CR using the Bestiary guidelines, but it could probably use some playtesting to make sure...
I also added in some flavor of my own. Please let me know what you think.
Intellect Devourers are indeed the preferred "mind flayer replacement" in Golarion. The seugathi work well too, and also work well to replace the umber hulk.
No idea what a seugathi even is ... and based on the above discussion it's only available in a secondary Chronicles sourcebook. Given the editorial view of this creature as a possible replacement for both the mind flayer and the umber hulk, I sure hope it'll be in Bestiary II. I also assume it's not OGL since I can't find it on either of the PRD sites, which makes it a non-ideal candidate.
As for intellect devourers ... they're creepy, but there's no way to put one into an adventure and evoke the response a mind flayer would. It's like trying to replace beholders (which we've also lost) with retrievers ... the recognition isn't there.
The loss of one of the iconic monsters, the mind flayer, really does leave a hole it'll be hard to fill.
Okay, I did my conversion anyway, and it's a bit different than the above, so I'm posting it anyway. 8^)
Neh-Thalggu, Lesser
Arazyr, if you are in charge of that esotera website, I just sent you an email via the contact us form on the site re: merging your content into d20pfsrd.com. If you're not interested no biggie, but we're getting 5000+ visits a day now so it might make sense to have this stuff in once place.
Just an idea :)
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Actually, as Castle Amber was a Clark Smith/ Lovecraftian adventure, I always thought the BRain Collector WAS the Mi-Go, just as the Death Demons were Nightgaunts?
While it's openly a homage to C.A. Smith's wierd fantasy (and a welcome one at that), one award I think it really does deserve is that of the first 'Ravenloft' adventure. Yes, before even 'I6-Ravenloft' itself.
The advancing mists, a gothic mansion, a family of high-powered NPCs you'd be crackers to fight, who attempt to recruit you in their vendettas, escape into an alternate history French demiplane, with a McGuffin Hunt to win the way back home.
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Creative Director
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No idea what a seugathi even is ... and based on the above discussion it's only available in a secondary Chronicles sourcebook. Given the editorial view of this creature as a possible replacement for both the mind flayer and the umber hulk, I sure hope it'll be in Bestiary II. I also assume it's not OGL since I can't find it on either of the PRD sites, which makes it a non-ideal candidate.
I wouldn't call "Into the Darklands" a "secondary" Chronicles book... especially if you're running a game with Darklands elements. In fact, it's got more crunch than most of the Chronicles books line did at the time, and covered a HUGE area of Golarion. Of course, having written half of it, I'm biased. In any event, as with all of our books, all of the crunch (including the stats for the seugathi) are completely open content.
As for intellect devourers ... they're creepy, but there's no way to put one into an adventure and evoke the response a mind flayer would. It's like trying to replace beholders (which we've also lost) with retrievers ... the recognition isn't there.
I completely disagree. The only reason that mind flayers have the recognition you talk about is because WotC and TSR before them spent a LOT of energy BUILDING that level of recognition. In the 1st edition era, both mind flayers and intellect devourers had about hte same level of recognition, but since the poor intellect devourers always got secondary status as monsters, it seems, after 1st edition while Mind Flayers regularly got books and adventures about them, and continued to do so into 3rd edition while the intellect devourer got regulated to the psionics ghetto. I'm sure that given an equal amount of time (15 years or more) intellect devourers can be developed into an equally major role. And honestly, the fact that they DON'T have a lot of pre-extant baggage with implied continuity is pretty attractive for me, since they don't feel overdone and overexposed.
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Creative Director
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While it's openly a homage to C.A. Smith's wierd fantasy (and a welcome one at that), one award I think it really does deserve is that of the first 'Ravenloft' adventure. Yes, before even 'I6-Ravenloft' itself.
I'll go even further. I think the necromancer and the lich as they exist in the game today do so primarily because of C. A. Smith's work. ESPECIALLY his Zothique stories.