It occurs to me that I've been overlooking a strength of the Gnome - it's charisma bonus! Intimidate doesn't take a penalty from size or strength, and those feats are just sitting there...
This is with the hooked hammer:
STR 13 (7)
DEX 15 (7)
CON 14 (2)
INT 10
WIS 12 (2)
CHA 14 (2)1 2WF
1B W. Focus (Hook Hammer)
2 2W Defense
3 Dazzling Display
4B W. Specialization (HH)-- +1 Dex
5 Lunge -- Weapon Training (Double Weapon)
6B Power Attack
7 Shatter Defenses
8B Greater W. Focus (HH)-- +1 Dex
9 Improved 2WF
10B Vital Strike -- Weapon Training (Thrown)
11 Deadly Stroke
12B Greater W. Specialization (HH)-- + 1 StrMight work better without the 2WF, but I like the free double weapon. Do we know if you can Vital Strike doing the Deadly Blow's single attack?
Not a bad Idea. But is there a reason your wisdom is so high? I would probably drop it for a better strength, particularly since you rae apparently not going weapon finese despite having a better dex then strength.
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Not a bad Idea. But is there a reason your wisdom is so high? I would probably drop it for a better strength, particularly since you rae apparently not going weapon finese despite having a better dex then strength.It occurs to me that I've been overlooking a strength of the Gnome - it's charisma bonus! Intimidate doesn't take a penalty from size or strength, and those feats are just sitting there...
This is with the hooked hammer:
STR 13 (7)
DEX 15 (7)
CON 14 (2)
INT 10
WIS 12 (2)
CHA 14 (2)1 2WF
1B W. Focus (Hook Hammer)
2 2W Defense
3 Dazzling Display
4B W. Specialization (HH)-- +1 Dex
5 Lunge -- Weapon Training (Double Weapon)
6B Power Attack
7 Shatter Defenses
8B Greater W. Focus (HH)-- +1 Dex
9 Improved 2WF
10B Vital Strike -- Weapon Training (Thrown)
11 Deadly Stroke
12B Greater W. Specialization (HH)-- + 1 StrMight work better without the 2WF, but I like the free double weapon. Do we know if you can Vital Strike doing the Deadly Blow's single attack?
Hook hammer is not a finesse weapon anyways.
But is there a reason your wisdom is so high? I would probably drop it for a better strength, particularly since you rae apparently not going weapon finese despite having a better dex then strength.
It takes 10 points to get 14 Str after the penalty. Bitter experience has taught me to jack the Will save when I can.
After thinking about it a bit, I think the duelist approach might be the best way to go, but there's some stat weirdness. . .
You need an 11 Charisma to cast the gnome racial spells, so you can't drop your base Charisma down below 9 before racial bonuses. With the duelist build needing Int and the general idea that you don't spare on Wisdom for melee, you now really don't have a dump stat. . . even Str shouldn't be a true "in-the-negatives" dump stat. 20 point builds make this a little easier. Since the duelist gives you essentially the prereqs for Whirlwind Attack, you might as well work toward that feat progression with your fighter levels:
Here's what you do: You qualify for duellist with paladin levels.
Feats:
1: Weapon Finesse
3: Dervish Dance (From Quadira Companion)
5: Dodge
7: Mobility
(Later, it's pretty much up to you - spring attack is a great choice, maybe toughness)
Sure, it takes a little longer, but the Dervish Dance feat allows you to use Dex for both attack and damage with a scimitar and use a scimitar with the duelist class.
Prioritise the abilities as follows: Dex/Cha, Int, Con, Wis, Str.
You could go with something like Str 6, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10 Cha 16 as your start-up scores (20 Point Purchase. If 25 points, get Cha 18. If 15 points, get Dex 14 - you could also go with Dex 14/Cha 18 with 20 points)
I know, I know, your regular damage in the first couple of levels will be low (and you'll have to use a rapier or short sword until you get Dervish Dance or your attack rolls will suck, too.), your attack rolls will be nice enough, and soon enough, you'll have deadly attacks and a good defence (with nice saves and good AC)
People mentioning rogue and paladin are missing the point of the thread. I think we know that paladin and rogue are good/better options. The key is finding some kind of melee fighter option for the gnome.
I don't think the point was missed at all, the OP asked for a Paladin build suggestion halfway down the 1st page of this thread. The Rogue I recommended was simply a level dip for Sneak Attack damage, which is NOT dependent on SIZE, it's always some multiple of D6.
--------------------@KaeYoss - I would NEVER EVER try playing a Fighter with under 12 STR, let alone a 6 STR... unless you just really don't care about being functional. You may want to have armor and carry a backpack... with stuff in it, lol. I consider 6 STR to be the stuff of Wizards, who carry a book and save every penny for a Handy Haversack. :)
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@Shar Tahl - For your initial TWF'ing build, I recommend packing a 2-Hander as well, likely a Greatsword(1d10) and used primarily for charges until you get TW-Rend and/or TW-Pounce. Keep in mind a small Kukri is going to amount to 1d3+1 (13 STR) and only x2 on crits... from what I've seen of the crit deck, it's not big on damage, but more about applying conditions, the best of which being an 8 point bleed. (As I mentioned above, one level of Rogue has the potential of bumping you to a 1d3+1 +1d6 for each attack while TWF. No, it's not a pure Fighter, but it helps damage output quite a bit. Greatsword would be 1d10+1 +1d6.)
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6 strength is kind of crazy. 15 pounds and you pass light load. I generally try not to go below 8 strength for any character, casters included. Overloaded just stinks.
For my characters, I like to try to stick to a single class unless I am aiming for a specific prestige or he has some story aspect that shifts him in another direction. I do agree that adding rogue increases the damage a lot in certain conditions, especially with a high bluff and using improved feint to make them flat-footed as a move action.
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Gnomes make pretty decent barbarians. The Con bonus does more than just extra hitpoints, the fast movement offsets the racial move penalty... with a base of 14 Str, Power Attack and a greatsword, you can be doing +5 to attack for 1d10+9 damage at 1st level while raging, which is more than reasonable!
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Barbarian is a rough build for them since they need a decent level of several stats. I made this build to see how it looks. I used the Earth Breaker shoanti weapon because its a cool barbarian weapon. did not want to give hits to int and wis because it would not fit a barbarian at all. A dumb barbarian with poor instincts would not make sense at all.
Gnome Barbarian – Two handed hammer - 20 buy
STR:14 (10)
DEX:13 (7)
CON:16 (5)
INT:10 (0)
WIS:12 (2)
CHA:9 (-4)
Level 1:Power Attack
Level 3:Agile Maneuvers
Level 5:Improved Sunder
Level 7:Vital Strike
Level 9:Improved Critical (Earth Breaker)
Level 11:Improved Vital Strike
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Barbarian is a rough build for them since they need a decent level of several stats. I made this build to see how it looks. I used the Earth Breaker shoanti weapon because its a cool barbarian weapon. did not want to give hits to int and wis because it would not fit a barbarian at all. A dumb barbarian with poor instincts would not make sense at all.
Gnome Barbarian – Two handed hammer - 20 buy
STR:14 (10)
DEX:13 (7)
CON:16 (5)
INT:10 (0)
WIS:12 (2)
CHA:9 (-4)Level 1:Power Attack
Level 3:Agile Maneuvers
Level 5:Improved Sunder
Level 7:Vital Strike
Level 9:Improved Critical (Earth Breaker)
Level 11:Improved Vital Strike
I had a one-shot gnome bard who wielded a human sized earthbreaker. It was great.
I like the hammer option much better than the kukri's.. mostly flavourwise, I get an image of him smashing giant toes with that thing ^^
tough call between barbarian and fighter there though, a grey bearded, blad headed gnome barbarian dressed in just a loincloth and wielding a big hammer would be awesome, but I don't see him surviving many encounters.
There's a wicked NPC Gnome Barbarian in the CotCT AP, Escape from Old Korvosa. I think his name is Jabbyr, approximately level 8 and he uses a Greatsword. Maybe someone here can post his stats/build, I'll ask my DM later on... I've fought him twice now(I'm filler/healer for a 2nd group), he's a tough cookie.
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we have a Gnome Barbarian / Sorcerer / Dragon Disciple in our current Second Darkness game.
we all just hit lvl 15, and are almost through with Descent into Midnight...he hits like a ton of bricks, yielding something like 150 damage on a full attack, when power attacking (we're using the Beta rules for this one still, so -10 to hit for +20 damage...yeowtch)
As a Small with a Str penalty, you won't be able to match a Medium in sheer damage output, but with the Con boost and size bonuses to hit and AC, you'll do fine with any of the Full-Bab/d10 HD classes.
-t
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Used Treantmonk's guide as a reference.
Gnome monk
STR:15 (13)
DEX:14 (5)
CON:15 (3)
INT:8 (-2)
WIS:14 (5)
CHA:9 (-4)
Level 1:Point Blank Shot
Bonus 1:Improved Grapple
Bonus 2:Deflect Arrows
Level 3:Power Attack
Level 5:Deadly Aim
Bonus 6:Improved Bull Rush
Level 7:Improved Overrun
Level 9:Greater Grapple
Bonus 10:Medusa's Wrath
Level 12: Greater Overrun
@KaeYoss - I would NEVER EVER try playing a Fighter with under 12 STR
Your shortcomings are none of my concern :P
let alone a 6 STR... unless you just really don't care about being functional. You may want to have armor and carry a backpack... with stuff in it, lol. I consider 6 STR to be the stuff of Wizards, who carry a book and save every penny for a Handy Haversack. :)
What do you really need? When I leave my home, I see very little people with camping gear on their backs. You leave most of your stuff, like your bed, in your home, after all.
A Str 6 gnome can carry 15 pounds of stuff with him without being hindered much by it.
Scimitar: 2 lbs
couple of daggers: 1 lb
Studded leather: 10 lbs.
That even leaves a bit of wriggling space for some light clothes and a couple of clothes.
By the time your good-for-nothing flunkies decide to leave the city and go on some boring trek they call "wilderness adventuring", you'll probably be able to afford a handy haversack - and traded that bulky studded leather for a lighter mithral shirt.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Here's my attempt at a Gnome Fighter. I was aiming towards a PrC with this build so there may be a few choices that seem odd.
@KaeYoss - I would NEVER EVER try playing a Fighter with under 12 STRYour shortcomings are none of my concern :P
....
A Str 6 gnome can carry 15 pounds of stuff with him without being hindered much by it.
Scimitar: 2 lbs
couple of daggers: 1 lb
Studded leather: 10 lbs.
That even leaves a bit of wriggling space for some light clothes and a couple of clothes.
Your usual sarcastic humor doesn't bother me, I'm actually a fan of it. :P
So your gnome doesn't care about any sort of survival gear, even the basics. The lightest clothing is Peasant or Monk at 1/4 lb. each set. Non-combat gear = zero... that's fine, I've seen it done and have done it myself.
EDIT: The damage even after 3rd level with a non-core feat is just sub-par.
Stumpy meatshields can be awesome in places like dungeons.
Its all situational, but gnome/dorf/hobbit Tunnel Rats are awesome - just awesome in that element.
Use the terrain, use the terrain...
Here's my attempt at a Gnome Fighter. I was aiming towards a PrC with this build so there may be a few choices that seem odd.
Where did you find Armored Savant?
Your usual sarcastic humor doesn't bother me, I'm actually a fan of it. :P
All in good fun, man.
So your gnome doesn't care about any sort of survival gear, even the basics.
Nope, city man, that one. Or gnome. Sure, he wouldn't go camping (the gnats are horrible, anyway), but for an urban campaign, this isn't really a problem (extra advantage: no ugly backpacks to ruin your style!)
The lightest clothing is Peasant or Monk at 1/4 lb. each set. Non-combat gear = zero... that's fine, I've seen it done and have done it myself.
Even at the start (with the heavy studded leather armour), you have 2 pounds for stuff like clothing (he'd have some light clothing, anyway), some coin, and sundries.
EDIT: The damage even after 3rd level with a non-core feat is just sub-par.
I think he can do well enough. What he loses in damage he makes up in other things, like defense.
Plus, you don't have to outdo the big guys, you just have to pull your weight (figuratively). I think he can do that.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Here's my attempt at a Gnome Fighter. I was aiming towards a PrC with this build so there may be a few choices that seem odd.Where did you find Armored Savant?
Dragon Magazine #355
Class Acts p.92
Eldritch Warriors
:)
Here's my attempt at a Gnome Fighter. I was aiming towards a PrC with this build so there may be a few choices that seem odd.Where did you find Armored Savant?Dragon Magazine #355
Class Acts p.92
Eldritch Warriors:)
Thanks. :)
Why not take a small polearm with reach?
Cavalier has to be the best option. The companion is a better flanking buddy since hes smaller and that helps.
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I'm building a Gnome Cavalier as a back up for Rise of the Runelords, and was wondring what other people would put the stats at for a 25 point game?
I made a Gnome Emissary (Cav)/Arcane Duelist (Brd) for a game once who did remarkably well. Spent my points as such...
Str 5pt =14 -2ra =12
Dex 5pt =14
Con 5pt =14 +2ra =16
Int 0pt =10
Wis 5pt =14
Cha 5pt =14 +2ra =16
The build isn't meant to be the best, but it provided alot of staying power. Between the gnome and her pony, the pair usually outdamaged their enemies and the rest of the party by outlasting them all. If you're going straight Cavalier, you might want higher Strength or Dex. I usually try to boost all the Saving Throw stats to at least a 14 to make up for any class deficiencies. In this case, the Cavalier's high Fort + the Bard's high Ref and Will saves gave my little gnome terrific resilience. You might try:
Str 10pt =16 -2ra =14
Dex 5pt =14
Con 5pt =14 +2ra =16
Int 0pt =10
Wis 3pt =13
Cha 2pt =12 +2ra =14
Charisma is good for some of the Cavalier's special abilities and Cavaliers make good party "faces" because of their many Cha-based skills. Don't discount Intimidate.
As for the gnome fighter question, I always thought the tortoise blade would be a fun weapon to use with a TWF or S&B fighter. This guy looks like he's having fun anyway. They show up in Races of Stone and do 1d4 (19-20x2.)
Barbarian is a rough build for them since they need a decent level of several stats. I made this build to see how it looks. I used the Earth Breaker shoanti weapon because its a cool barbarian weapon. did not want to give hits to int and wis because it would not fit a barbarian at all. A dumb barbarian with poor instincts would not make sense at all.
Gnome Barbarian – Two handed hammer - 20 buy
STR:14 (10)
DEX:13 (7)
CON:16 (5)
INT:10 (0)
WIS:12 (2)
CHA:9 (-4)Level 1:Power Attack
Level 3:Agile Maneuvers
Level 5:Improved Sunder
Level 7:Vital Strike
Level 9:Improved Critical (Earth Breaker)
Level 11:Improved Vital Strike
I'm good with this, since a Barbarian pretty much only really needs strength and con. You're Strength would go up to 18, and you get +2 con for being a gnome. Then you have a bunch of hit points even if you have crappy AC, so you take invoulnerable rager. Everything else is you'd use with another stat is just gravy. I had an Elf Barbarian that I got up to lvl 4 in Pathfinder Society, and it did plenty of damage with base 14 STR. This gnome would probably be better then that because it's tougher.
Gnome Urban Barbarian
Use the tinker ability to make your own version of an elven curveblade. Enchant it with the agile property. Take weapon finesse you don't need to worry about STR cause the Urb Barb can boost DEX instead.
